Call me old, but ...

tochicool

Well, technically, calling me old would be an insult to me and, frankly, a wrongly thought out opinion. 

 

 

 

To the point, levels;

 

If you play any solo, themepark, game you will find that as you progress, you will encounter higher levels. It builds anticipation, shows progress, and is a sign of difficulty. So far, MMOs have only ticked off one out of three; progression. 

 

Progression to what? No more grind? Huray; you have all the epic gear, highest stats, but what use are they when you haven't got any challenge? If you've played an MMO long enough, you will realise it doesn't get any harder as you progress so no excitement. The game is still as easy as it were when you was a level one newcomer.  

 

This is the chain; 

 

Higher level -> Better gear -> Higher mobs -> More experience 

 

I believe that as you progress, yes, you get better equipment but the game should get harder and harder. (Not too hard) Unfortunately, the closest thing you get to a challenge is PvP or a dungeon, thus, their popularity. I like a challenge; that's what games are. 

Last words;

I have no more to say to this. MMOs should get harder as they progress to appeal to a wider audience. Fix this then end-game might not be soo "deja vu".

 

Jimmac

Whenever I see a post with any kind of non basic formatting and colored text, it is almost always a moronic rant about something ridiculous. 

This post wasn't like that. I picked strongly agree. And in addition to "growing difficulty" as players progress, the mechanics need to be able to provide for more and more strategy and tactics. 

Kabaal

Getting harder as you progress does not appeal to a wider audience like you seem to think. If it did then it's what you would be seeing in the majority of games. What does appeal to a wider audience is the feeling of being more powerful as you progress, something which is in direct conflict with what you want.

tochicool

Originally posted by Jimmac

Whenever I see a post with any kind of non basic formatting and colored text, it is almost always a moronic rant about something ridiculous. 

This post wasn't like that. I picked strongly agree. And in addition to "growing difficulty" as players progress, the mechanics need to be able to provide for more and more strategy and tactics. 

Thank you.

I also agree about strategic gameplay than just hitting random hotkeys...

Draemos

If your talking about mobs getting smarter, using more skills, and requiring certain tactics to defeat... then yes.

If your talking about the sort of level scaling that happened in Oblivion, then no.

tochicool

Originally posted by Kabaal

Getting harder as you progress does not appeal to a wider audience like you seem to think. If it did then it's what you would be seeing in the majority of games. What does appeal to a wider audience is the feeling of being more powerful as you progress, something which is in direct conflict with what you want.

Game like what you've just discribed are extremely popular. Take, for example, the Mario series, Assassin's Creed, and even more popular, modern, games that have single player as a side option follow this model. What you just stated shocked me...

tochicool

Originally posted by Draemos

If your talking about mobs getting smarter, using more skills, and requiring certain tactics to defeat... then yes.

If your talking about the sort of level scaling that happened in Oblivion, then no.

I haven't ever played Oblivion. Could you please enlighten me on the "level scaling"?

Kabaal

Originally posted by tochicool

Originally posted by Kabaal

Getting harder as you progress does not appeal to a wider audience like you seem to think. If it did then it's what you would be seeing in the majority of games. What does appeal to a wider audience is the feeling of being more powerful as you progress, something which is in direct conflict with what you want.

Game like what you've just discribed are extremely popular. Take, for example, the Mario series, Assassin's Creed, and even more popular, modern, games that have single player as a side option follow this model. What you just stated shocked me...

You're posting about MMO's and yet are citing single player games. The abundance of easy MMO's that get easier as you go along aren't made just for giggles, it's because they are what makes the companies money. If games getting harder as you progress was something that would "appeal to a wider audience" aka sell more then that's what we would have.

People want to feel like the hero of the game by the time they get to max level and afterwards, not to feel weaker vs the mobs than when they started.

Bladestrom

strongly disagree, the best possible mmorg will go on indefinitely, you cannot keep ramping up difficulty forever because you will reach the point where human reactions are physically not quick enough.  What you can say is that the difficulty of the final tier for each release should be difficult enough that only a small % will clear it in the short term, and it is expected that significan percentage of the player base will never clear all content.  That would be natural in a difficult game with a player base that has a wide range of ability. 

calburi

In oblivion, the mob spawns leveled with you, for example, town guards were always 5 levels higher than the player, no matter what level you reached.

Draemos

Originally posted by tochicool

Originally posted by Draemos

If your talking about mobs getting smarter, using more skills, and requiring certain tactics to defeat... then yes.

If your talking about the sort of level scaling that happened in Oblivion, then no.

I haven't ever played Oblivion. Could you please enlighten me on the "level scaling"?

More health, better armor, hits harder.  The mobs themselves don't evolve, they just scale in power.

tochicool

Originally posted by calburi

In oblivion, the mob spawns leveled with you, for example, town guards were always 5 levels higher than the player, no matter what level you reached.

Well that's just extra.

tochicool

I'm talking about it being more skill based than mere button pushing. Strategy. I'm not saying mobs will always be x 10 better than you. That's just silly.

Jimmac

Originally posted by Bladestrom

strongly disagree, the best possible mmorg will go on indefinitely, you cannot keep ramping up difficulty forever because you will reach the point where human reactions are physically not quick enough.  What you can say is that the difficulty of the final tier for each release should be difficult enough that only a small % will clear it in the short term, and it is expected that significan percentage of the player base will never clear all content.  That would be natural in a difficult game with a player base that has a wide range of ability. 

Yeah, what you said in orange is true if the game you are playing is Simon Says. Otherwise, that's not what I think OP is talking about.

What I was talking about (and what I think the OP was referring to) is difficulty in terms of knowing what spells to cast when, knowing your enemy's strengths and weaknesses, knowing when to change up tactics, knowing how to run your group as efficiently and well as possible, etc. No one is talking about increasing difficulty indefinitely or ramping up difficulty forever. Humans don't live long enough for that. Skill is what is being discussed, not your physical ability to click things as fast as possible. 

Oh and about Obliviion...the difficulty system used in Oblivion was terrible and made the game almost not worth playing. Just giving the mobs more hitpoints etc isn't "increasing difficulty." It's just scaling the monsters' stats to keep up with yours. That is not "increased difficulty."

tochicool

Originally posted by Jimmac

Originally posted by Bladestrom

strongly disagree, the best possible mmorg will go on indefinitely, you cannot keep ramping up difficulty forever because you will reach the point where human reactions are physically not quick enough.  What you can say is that the difficulty of the final tier for each release should be difficult enough that only a small % will clear it in the short term, and it is expected that significan percentage of the player base will never clear all content.  That would be natural in a difficult game with a player base that has a wide range of ability. 

Yeah, what you said in orange is true if the game you are playing is Simon Says. Otherwise, that's not what I think OP is talking about.

What I was talking about (and what I think the OP was referring to) is difficulty in terms of knowing what spells to cast when, knowing your enemy's strengths and weaknesses, knowing when to change up tactics, knowing how to run your group as efficiently and well as possible, etc. No one is talking about increasing difficulty indefinitely or ramping up difficulty forever. Humans don't live long enough for that. Skill is what is being discussed, not your physical ability to click things as fast as possible. 

Oh and about Obliviion...the difficulty system used in Oblivion was terrible and made the game almost not worth playing. Just giving the mobs more hitpoints etc isn't "increasing difficulty." It's just scaling the monsters' stats to keep up with yours. That is not "increased difficulty."

What he said.

Saryk

 

The problems with MMO are several issues that are stupid in my opinion. You are a level 1, a crab kills you. You’re level 2 and kill a bear with a dagger. Now your level 80, the bear doesn’t pay attention to you. Because you don’t taste good and it knows that you can fart and kill it! A fairy can kill a Ogre with a toothpick but an Ogre can’t kill a dragon with a 250 lbs battle axe. What I am trying to say is that there are unjust laws of nature in games.

 

A hungry bear doesn’t care about your level. A fairy doesn’t have the strength to kill a Ogre in melee. But the fairy can snipe  the Ogre at 100 yards with a 308.

 

Getting rid of levels is the right move in my opinion. It should be skill points for skills a race can use or the individual can handle! Right now the Secret World is looking like the MMO with the right system.

maplestone

The main purpose of levels is to create the illusion of empowerment.  It's hard to convey that illusion if gaining power means that you feel like you are struggling more and more every time you set foot in a dungeon.

Some people thrive on increasing challenge, some people thrive on decreasing risk.

Why not let the player choose their own level of difficulty?  If there's a dragon in the world, there's a dragon in the world.  Perhaps it's not the game's job to tell you exactly when to face it, but to simply offer you a sagely colour-coded estimate of how challenging it will be. Which is what most games already do ... so ... wait, what is the complaint again?

tochicool

Originally posted by Gkarn

 

The problems with MMO are several issues that are stupid in my opinion. You are a level 1, a crab kills you. You’re level 2 and kill a bear with a dagger. Now your level 80, the bear doesn’t pay attention to you. Because you don’t taste good and it knows that you can fart and kill it! A fairy can kill a Ogre with a toothpick but an Ogre can’t kill a dragon with a 250 lbs battle axe. What I am trying to say is that there are unjust laws of nature in games.

 

A hungry bear doesn’t care about your level. A fairy doesn’t have the strength to kill a Ogre in melee. But the fairy can snipe  the Ogre at 100 yards with a 308.

 

Getting rid of levels is the right move in my opinion. It should be skill points for skills a race can use or the individual can handle! Right now the Secret World is looking like the MMO with the right system.

You pointed out the right problems out in the green but choose the wrong solution in the red.

Getting rid of levels will, ultimately, kill MMOs.

tochicool

The colour codes aren't about power but whether or whether not it will attack you if you approach it's territory.

Loke666

I don't think MMOs as such needs levels (many P&P RPGs do fine without) at all, but no matter the mechanics, the game should get harder and harder as you progress.

And I agree, that is not the case in most games anymore (besides the first 20 or so that usually is so easy that a 5 year old can play them).

So, yes, I agree fully with OP.

But I also needs to point out that time invested isn't the same as difficulty.

Adamantine

All you need to make a game fun is to

(a) Challenge the player. Not too much, or it gets frustrating (player gets nothing done). Not too little, or it gets boring (player has nothing to do).

(b) Give the player a sense of progression.

As long as you manage to reach both goals, the game will be fun. If you can give the player a sense of progression without handing him out levels and better gear, fine. Guild Wars seems to have done this for some people.

Bhazir

Originally posted by tochicool

Originally posted by Gkarn

 

The problems with MMO are several issues that are stupid in my opinion. You are a level 1, a crab kills you. You’re level 2 and kill a bear with a dagger. Now your level 80, the bear doesn’t pay attention to you. Because you don’t taste good and it knows that you can fart and kill it! A fairy can kill a Ogre with a toothpick but an Ogre can’t kill a dragon with a 250 lbs battle axe. What I am trying to say is that there are unjust laws of nature in games.

 

A hungry bear doesn’t care about your level. A fairy doesn’t have the strength to kill a Ogre in melee. But the fairy can snipe  the Ogre at 100 yards with a 308.

 

Getting rid of levels is the right move in my opinion. It should be skill points for skills a race can use or the individual can handle! Right now the Secret World is looking like the MMO with the right system.

You pointed out the right problems out in the green but choose the wrong solution in the red.

Getting rid of levels will, ultimately, kill MMOs.

Then why are people still playing a game when they reached max level where at that point the levels don't matter in the least? Getting rid of the levels won't kill MMOs as there are more systems around that accomplish exactly the same as what levels do. But levels are so much used with RPGs that most mmorpgs put in a few levels at least and make it easy to get to max level and progress into the other methods of progress.

Disdena

Originally posted by maplestone

The main purpose of levels is to create the illusion of empowerment.  It's hard to convey that illusion if gaining power means that you feel like you are struggling more and more every time you set foot in a dungeon.

Some people thrive on increasing challenge, some people thrive on decreasing risk.

Why not let the player choose their own level of difficulty?  If there's a dragon in the world, there's a dragon in the world.  Perhaps it's not the game's job to tell you exactly when to face it, but to simply offer you a sagely colour-coded estimate of how challenging it will be. Which is what most games already do ... so ... wait, what is the complaint again?

This! This, people! This!

What game do you know of where you can't choose to up the difficulty by either a.) fighting higher level mobs than the standard game puts you up against, b.) bringing fewer friends with you than the game expects you to, or c.) intentionally choosing a build or set of equipment that is sub-optimal? Additionally, what game doesn't reward with more experience and better loot for doing a.) or b.) ?

What's basically being asked here is not to appeal to a wider demographic but rather a smaller one. You're asking to change where the bar is set so that the people looking for the moderately easy difficulty setting (aka "the majority") have to leave the beaten path for lower level targets, which is their only option for decreasing the challenge. Inverting b.) or c.) isn't really possible: most games have group content that is designed to be tackled by a full group—you cannot bring more than the maximum to make it easier—and you can't just choose to have a superior set of gear.

It's also worth mentioning that level 1 play has been remarkably easier than high level play in every single MMO that I have ever heard of, without exception. It's fine to say that high levels contain no more challenge than the midgame, but my experience tells me that you absolutely can't compare it to level 1.

karbonista

I voted "other".  I agree, but with reservations.

Serious, noncasual gamers have very different expectations regarding difficulty than do casual gamers.  For this reason, difficulty should be selectable to a degree. 

A veteran gamer is going to select or create gear & skills strategically and will be more "efficient" -- so a normal-difficulty game won't be fun.  A newer gamer or a casual gamer will be less selective and less efficient, so a harder game will be frustrating.

SO at char selection, you pick normal, elite, serious or permadeath.  Normal/elite are like the old HG:L.  Serious will have mobs outleveling you in addition to being harder.  Progress will be slower, require efficient builds and teamwork. But exclusive rewards will be available. 

Your nametag color shows which difficulty you're playing.  Every X levels you get the choice to switch up (not down)-- but the color of someone who was "serious" the whole way will be distinct from someone who switched up at any time after lvl 1 -- so people who played "serioius" the whole way will be distinctive.  This will encourage players to start at higher difficulties, but won't force a reroll on someone who gets good at the game and wants a harder challenge.

Permadeath mode is balanced specifically for permadeath at "elite" level and no swtiching is allowed.  Permadeath gear is not tradeable to other difficulties.   An elite user who wants to use a serious gear will have higher stat requirements to wear it  or get less benefit from it.

 

If I ran the zoo...  (This is coming from the perspective of a themepark loot-centric game, since that's what I like).

Icewhite

 

Originally posted by karbonista

SO at char selection, you pick normal, elite, serious or permadeath.  Normal/elite are like the old HG:L.  Serious will have mobs outleveling you in addition to being harder.  Progress will be slower, require efficient builds and teamwork. But exclusive rewards will be available.

That design has some drawbacks.  If I've had a rough day at work, I certainly don't feel up to playing permadeath.

I prefer dynamic instance design (difficulty sliders). 

Feel like mindless butchering some ezmode mobs because your brain is only partly functional (or loaded with alchohol?)  Go for it.  Feel like cranking it up enough that you really need to be on your toes, and getting better loot too?  Go for it.  Wanna do both in one night?  No problem.

Warmaker

I dont know about increased difficulty resolving End-Game issues.  If anything, a wide variety of things to do would be nice.