How does GW2 throw away the mmorpg design book? I just don't see it.
He's generalizing the fact that GW2 is doing things that aren't customary for MMORPG's, OR, they are using niche things from other MMORPG's and blowing them up. Both of these things give a sense of saying "Fuck how it normally goes, let's do it our way"
There are MORE than a non-fan like me can list, but even I can see a few.
-The "Holy Trinity" is being abolished (TO A POINT), and this is classified easily as innovative
-A third of the game will be underwater, and the underwater experience isn't supposed to feel clunky and tac'd on (With how your abilities change underwater)
-No Raiding, but content to satisfy the wide majority of players (You can't, and will NOT ever sate everyones thirst)
This is coming from a non-fan of GW. Even i'm not too closed minded to see the innovation they are taking at an industry so dug into the ground that even their roots are growing roots.
Oh now I'm impressed. GW2 is so revolutionary: It has NO trinity. It has NO raiding. And it has underwater. And a lot of it !
So leaving features out is the new trend. I wonder when people will go back to good old Tetris.
How does GW2 throw away the mmorpg design book? I just don't see it.
He's generalizing the fact that GW2 is doing things that aren't customary for MMORPG's, OR, they are using niche things from other MMORPG's and blowing them up. Both of these things give a sense of saying "Fuck how it normally goes, let's do it our way"
There are MORE than a non-fan like me can list, but even I can see a few.
-The "Holy Trinity" is being abolished (TO A POINT), and this is classified easily as innovative
-A third of the game will be underwater, and the underwater experience isn't supposed to feel clunky and tac'd on (With how your abilities change underwater)
-No Raiding, but content to satisfy the wide majority of players (You can't, and will NOT ever sate everyones thirst)
This is coming from a non-fan of GW. Even i'm not too closed minded to see the innovation they are taking at an industry so dug into the ground that even their roots are growing roots.
Oh now I'm impressed. GW2 is so revolutionary: It has NO trinity. It has NO raiding. And it has underwater. And a lot of it !
So leaving features out is the new trend. I wonder when people will go back to good old Tetris.
How does GW2 throw away the mmorpg design book? I just don't see it.
GW2 is examining literally every aspect of the MMO genre and questioning everything in order to make the best game they can. If that means they make revolutionary change, evolutionary change, or no change to something, that's what they do.
In my opinion, their biggest contribution to the genre is dynamic events. Traditional quests are walls of text with no impact on the game world. They're isolating because you don't want other players killing your mobs. Public quests were the next evolution of that, but they were also static, non-scaling and secondary to quests.
What GW2 does is put all these scaling, community oriented, failable, chaining, repeatable, visual events and make them the entire open world content. I really can't go into all the detail they deserve without writing for an entire page, but this is a huge deal. This has never been done before. I've said this before a ton of times, if a person doesn't think dynamic events are such a truly revolutionary epic win of a concept, then they simply don't understand them.
It does way beyond DEs though. ArenaNet is a company with a vision. For instance, one thing they want to do is put community back into MMORPGs. So many of their design choices reflect this. The PVE world is designed from the ground up to make griefing impossible. DEs scale so you want to see other players. Anybody can rez anybody else at any time, even in combat. Cross profession combos so players can visually work together even when ungrouped. Everybody gets XP and loot for helping other players kill mobs. No mob tagging, no node stealing. Everybody has every gathering profession so you never have to wait for someone else half the time while they wait for you the other half. The game automatically mentors you down in power when you do an event (or lets you manually sidekick people up). This means you can group with anybody from your friends list at any time, no matter how badly you've outleveled them. Any 5 people can do a dungeon, so no turning friends away because they're not the right class. There's 5-6 unique minigames per capital city. I'm probably even forgetting other things.
The best part is, they don't even talk about anything about their game unless it's already implemented and working. They've been alpha testing for literally years and routinely have their entire company play the game together. They iterate the hell out of every aspect of their game and aren't afraid to toss out entire zones that aren't working like they want. Their lead content designer just said he couldn't imagine how many hundreds of hours it would take to play everything in their DEMO, and that the demo was only a small part of the entire game.
I could talk about this game all day. It really is something special.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it."-Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
How does GW2 throw away the mmorpg design book? I just don't see it.
He's generalizing the fact that GW2 is doing things that aren't customary for MMORPG's, OR, they are using niche things from other MMORPG's and blowing them up. Both of these things give a sense of saying "Fuck how it normally goes, let's do it our way"
There are MORE than a non-fan like me can list, but even I can see a few.
-The "Holy Trinity" is being abolished (TO A POINT), and this is classified easily as innovative
-A third of the game will be underwater, and the underwater experience isn't supposed to feel clunky and tac'd on (With how your abilities change underwater)
-No Raiding, but content to satisfy the wide majority of players (You can't, and will NOT ever sate everyones thirst)
This is coming from a non-fan of GW. Even i'm not too closed minded to see the innovation they are taking at an industry so dug into the ground that even their roots are growing roots.
Oh now I'm impressed. GW2 is so revolutionary: It has NO trinity. It has NO raiding. And it has underwater. And a lot of it !
So leaving features out is the new trend. I wonder when people will go back to good old Tetris.
Meh. You took my posting more serious than it was intented. Granted, I should have put some smileys there but this site doesnt have any.
Either way "dual spec" is not a feature, its an abomination. Really not something I would actively demand. Even worse when its forced upon you, even worse if you're forced to trippleclass like in Rift. The GW1 implementation is still okay-ish though, people do mostly things like mixing ranger with a bit healer; or mixing mage with a bit mesmer - thats ok, more like having subclasses.
I dont oppose mixed classes per se, but make being mixed optional and make people having mixed classes not as good in the two jobs as those people who only pick one of these jobs.
Animal based pet class in Star Wars ? Now how exactly would that one work ? The only ones with magic in Star Wars are the Jedi. None of them ever was any pet-class-y. Thats why I prefer classic fantasy over any other setting - you can include pretty much anything into classic fantasy, but it doesnt work the other way around.
The rest is nice fluff but I can live perfectly happy without it.
How does GW2 throw away the mmorpg design book? I just don't see it.
He's generalizing the fact that GW2 is doing things that aren't customary for MMORPG's, OR, they are using niche things from other MMORPG's and blowing them up. Both of these things give a sense of saying "Fuck how it normally goes, let's do it our way"
There are MORE than a non-fan like me can list, but even I can see a few.
-The "Holy Trinity" is being abolished (TO A POINT), and this is classified easily as innovative
-A third of the game will be underwater, and the underwater experience isn't supposed to feel clunky and tac'd on (With how your abilities change underwater)
-No Raiding, but content to satisfy the wide majority of players (You can't, and will NOT ever sate everyones thirst)
This is coming from a non-fan of GW. Even i'm not too closed minded to see the innovation they are taking at an industry so dug into the ground that even their roots are growing roots.
Oh now I'm impressed. GW2 is so revolutionary: It has NO trinity. It has NO raiding. And it has underwater. And a lot of it !
So leaving features out is the new trend. I wonder when people will go back to good old Tetris.
The majority of people are sheep and flock to whatever game is the most popular and has the best marketing, the reason wow is so successful has alot to do with the marketing of the game. The amount of virals for wow on the internet is crazy, the whole leeroy jenkins craze and the more dots videos, all blizzard marketing.
The majority of people are sheep and flock to whatever game is the most popular and has the best marketing, the reason wow is so successful has alot to do with the marketing of the game. The amount of virals for wow on the internet is crazy, the whole leeroy jenkins craze and the more dots videos, all blizzard marketing.
Marketing only goes so far. If game is not good players will buy it due to marketing but then bail on it the moment they discover that it is aweful. It might work for single player game but not for MMOS like WOW which requires players to subscribe. So yeah marketing plays a big part but in the end game has to be worth it.
How does GW2 throw away the mmorpg design book? I just don't see it.
He's generalizing the fact that GW2 is doing things that aren't customary for MMORPG's, OR, they are using niche things from other MMORPG's and blowing them up. Both of these things give a sense of saying "Fuck how it normally goes, let's do it our way"
There are MORE than a non-fan like me can list, but even I can see a few.
-The "Holy Trinity" is being abolished (TO A POINT), and this is classified easily as innovative
-A third of the game will be underwater, and the underwater experience isn't supposed to feel clunky and tac'd on (With how your abilities change underwater)
-No Raiding, but content to satisfy the wide majority of players (You can't, and will NOT ever sate everyones thirst)
This is coming from a non-fan of GW. Even i'm not too closed minded to see the innovation they are taking at an industry so dug into the ground that even their roots are growing roots.
Oh now I'm impressed. GW2 is so revolutionary: It has NO trinity. It has NO raiding. And it has underwater. And a lot of it !
So leaving features out is the new trend. I wonder when people will go back to good old Tetris.
That list is misleading. There is large scale pvp, 16vs 16 battlegrounds and world pvp, dual spec is not needed due to companions filling in roles for the group. Day and night cycles would be a nightmare due to the multiple worlds with multiple suns/moons.
The majority of people are sheep and flock to whatever game is the most popular and has the best marketing, the reason wow is so successful has alot to do with the marketing of the game. The amount of virals for wow on the internet is crazy, the whole leeroy jenkins craze and the more dots videos, all blizzard marketing.
I wouldnt argue that Blizzard had excellent marketing. They definitely had. But I think there are other factors involved:
- Blizzard had a good, if not almost flawless name when WoW was released. They had produced Diablo 2 and various other very successful titles (Starcraft, Warcraft) before.
- WoW has low hardware requirements. Unlike other MMOs, you can run WoW on lowend machines just fine.
- Unlike really any other western MMO to date, WoW was actually a huge success in asia. Thats the prime reason why they manage such high player numbers. I have no way of knowing why this happened, especially WoW isnt particularily like any of the big asian titles (Lineage 2, Aion etc).
- Blizzard funded WoW well and managed to fix the rather poor state of the game that it had at release fast enough such that it wouldnt damage the reputation of it (EVE managed the same thing).
- They made the MMO genre more mainstream, removing dead weight and having good design principles like "easy to start, hard to master".
So yeah, WoW's roaring success was, in my opinion, also based on their good marketing, but that was far from the only factor.
So yeah, WoW's roaring success was, in my opinion, also based on their good marketing, but that was far from the only factor.
Most definitely, especially when you consider that the real marketing train didn't even start until the game was out for a while and already firmly ahead of any competitor.
The real story here is that GW2 is actually a contender against SWTOR. GW2 may not be THAT innovative, but it's miles ahead of SWTOR on that front. I never would have predicted that there would be a GW2 vs SWTOR battle like this even a year ago! Even now it seems a bit silly, but that's because the marketing for GW2 has been exceptional, and SWTOR is actually close to release. Whenever 2 games are very high on peoples radars, they will think they need to choose a side. WoW/EQ2, WAR/AoC, now GW2/TOR. Doesn't make sense but there ya go.
Isn't GW2 just another arena driven game again? I haven't followed it much..
I fail to see how GW2 is innovative at all to be honest from the little I've seen. Not saying SWTOR is, GW2 just isn't.
Ok, I gotta ask. You haven't been following GW2 much, ok fine, no problem. Then you went away and did something, then you came back to edit to say that you have seen a little and it's not innovative. What exactly did you look at in that time? I am sincerely asking, I would love to know where the information distribution process is breaking down.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it."-Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
I'll be buying both. Whichever releases first will likely get the most playtime. Reminds me of EQII and WoW... I ping ponged back and forth between the two before Blizzard finally won.
I'll be buying both, and making long-term opinions based upon having played them.
However, I did have to "unfollow" Rockjaw on Twitter to keep my head in the game about SW:TOR. All his incessant and pointless Tweeting was almost enough for me to not purchase SW:TOR. Hehe...but that's me.
Combat seems to have some neat features, like one class puts a flame wall on the ground and another shoots an arrow through the fire wall, adding fire damage to the arrow.
I just hope enemies can use the fire wall too, else it makes no sense.
GW2 is designed to be almost impossible to grief someone else in PVE. No mob tagging, no node stealing, automatically mentoring players down so they can't 1-shot everything, etc.
So along the lines of that, no, enemies won't be able to use that fire wall, or else it would be possible for someone else to grief you by giving enemies that wall to shoot you through.
It might make no sense, but my philosophy is that gameplay should always come first over things like lore or realism.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it."-Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Isn't GW2 just another arena driven game again? I haven't followed it much..
I fail to see how GW2 is innovative at all to be honest from the little I've seen. Not saying SWTOR is, GW2 just isn't.
Combat seems to have some neat features, like one class puts a flame wall on the ground and another shoots an arrow through the fire wall, adding fire damage to the arrow.
I just hope enemies can use the fire wall too, else it makes no sense.
It makes as much sense as your team mates not taking damage from your AoE.
Comments
Judging from the bullshit still going on it seems it can't be said often enough.
Oh now I'm impressed. GW2 is so revolutionary: It has NO trinity. It has NO raiding. And it has underwater. And a lot of it !
So leaving features out is the new trend. I wonder when people will go back to good old Tetris.
Trinity is not a feature. But you are correct on the green part. SW:TOR for example left out swimming, day/night- cycles, animal based pet classes, dual spec, gear dyes, PVP Arenas, large PVP Warzones.
He convinced me to buy DCUO... I'm not listening to him anymore!
GW2 is examining literally every aspect of the MMO genre and questioning everything in order to make the best game they can. If that means they make revolutionary change, evolutionary change, or no change to something, that's what they do.
In my opinion, their biggest contribution to the genre is dynamic events. Traditional quests are walls of text with no impact on the game world. They're isolating because you don't want other players killing your mobs. Public quests were the next evolution of that, but they were also static, non-scaling and secondary to quests.
What GW2 does is put all these scaling, community oriented, failable, chaining, repeatable, visual events and make them the entire open world content. I really can't go into all the detail they deserve without writing for an entire page, but this is a huge deal. This has never been done before. I've said this before a ton of times, if a person doesn't think dynamic events are such a truly revolutionary epic win of a concept, then they simply don't understand them.
It does way beyond DEs though. ArenaNet is a company with a vision. For instance, one thing they want to do is put community back into MMORPGs. So many of their design choices reflect this. The PVE world is designed from the ground up to make griefing impossible. DEs scale so you want to see other players. Anybody can rez anybody else at any time, even in combat. Cross profession combos so players can visually work together even when ungrouped. Everybody gets XP and loot for helping other players kill mobs. No mob tagging, no node stealing. Everybody has every gathering profession so you never have to wait for someone else half the time while they wait for you the other half. The game automatically mentors you down in power when you do an event (or lets you manually sidekick people up). This means you can group with anybody from your friends list at any time, no matter how badly you've outleveled them. Any 5 people can do a dungeon, so no turning friends away because they're not the right class. There's 5-6 unique minigames per capital city. I'm probably even forgetting other things.
The best part is, they don't even talk about anything about their game unless it's already implemented and working. They've been alpha testing for literally years and routinely have their entire company play the game together. They iterate the hell out of every aspect of their game and aren't afraid to toss out entire zones that aren't working like they want. Their lead content designer just said he couldn't imagine how many hundreds of hours it would take to play everything in their DEMO, and that the demo was only a small part of the entire game.
I could talk about this game all day. It really is something special.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Hahaha, yeah i am going to make up my own mind. Not listening to TB anymore.
thanks for my morning laugh
but adding my peanut gallery reply
many people will buy both games --- how revolutionary !!
EQ2 fan sites
Meh. You took my posting more serious than it was intented. Granted, I should have put some smileys there but this site doesnt have any.
Either way "dual spec" is not a feature, its an abomination. Really not something I would actively demand. Even worse when its forced upon you, even worse if you're forced to trippleclass like in Rift. The GW1 implementation is still okay-ish though, people do mostly things like mixing ranger with a bit healer; or mixing mage with a bit mesmer - thats ok, more like having subclasses.
I dont oppose mixed classes per se, but make being mixed optional and make people having mixed classes not as good in the two jobs as those people who only pick one of these jobs.
Animal based pet class in Star Wars ? Now how exactly would that one work ? The only ones with magic in Star Wars are the Jedi. None of them ever was any pet-class-y. Thats why I prefer classic fantasy over any other setting - you can include pretty much anything into classic fantasy, but it doesnt work the other way around.
The rest is nice fluff but I can live perfectly happy without it.
What you say?
The majority of people are sheep and flock to whatever game is the most popular and has the best marketing, the reason wow is so successful has alot to do with the marketing of the game. The amount of virals for wow on the internet is crazy, the whole leeroy jenkins craze and the more dots videos, all blizzard marketing.
Marketing only goes so far. If game is not good players will buy it due to marketing but then bail on it the moment they discover that it is aweful. It might work for single player game but not for MMOS like WOW which requires players to subscribe. So yeah marketing plays a big part but in the end game has to be worth it.
That list is misleading. There is large scale pvp, 16vs 16 battlegrounds and world pvp, dual spec is not needed due to companions filling in roles for the group. Day and night cycles would be a nightmare due to the multiple worlds with multiple suns/moons.
In Bioware we trust!
Wow a GW2 vs SWTOR thread. How original.
5 bucks says he changes his mind after they both have 6-12 months of live behind them.
Charr: Outta my way.
Human: What's your problem?
Charr: Your thin skin.
I wouldnt argue that Blizzard had excellent marketing. They definitely had. But I think there are other factors involved:
- Blizzard had a good, if not almost flawless name when WoW was released. They had produced Diablo 2 and various other very successful titles (Starcraft, Warcraft) before.
- WoW has low hardware requirements. Unlike other MMOs, you can run WoW on lowend machines just fine.
- Unlike really any other western MMO to date, WoW was actually a huge success in asia. Thats the prime reason why they manage such high player numbers. I have no way of knowing why this happened, especially WoW isnt particularily like any of the big asian titles (Lineage 2, Aion etc).
- Blizzard funded WoW well and managed to fix the rather poor state of the game that it had at release fast enough such that it wouldnt damage the reputation of it (EVE managed the same thing).
- They made the MMO genre more mainstream, removing dead weight and having good design principles like "easy to start, hard to master".
So yeah, WoW's roaring success was, in my opinion, also based on their good marketing, but that was far from the only factor.
Most definitely, especially when you consider that the real marketing train didn't even start until the game was out for a while and already firmly ahead of any competitor.
I've been saying what he's been saying as well.
Both games will come at at seperate dates. I know I will play both
The real story here is that GW2 is actually a contender against SWTOR. GW2 may not be THAT innovative, but it's miles ahead of SWTOR on that front. I never would have predicted that there would be a GW2 vs SWTOR battle like this even a year ago! Even now it seems a bit silly, but that's because the marketing for GW2 has been exceptional, and SWTOR is actually close to release. Whenever 2 games are very high on peoples radars, they will think they need to choose a side. WoW/EQ2, WAR/AoC, now GW2/TOR. Doesn't make sense but there ya go.
Isn't GW2 just another arena driven game again? I haven't followed it much..
I fail to see how GW2 is innovative at all to be honest from the little I've seen. Not saying SWTOR is, GW2 just isn't.
Ok, I gotta ask. You haven't been following GW2 much, ok fine, no problem. Then you went away and did something, then you came back to edit to say that you have seen a little and it's not innovative. What exactly did you look at in that time? I am sincerely asking, I would love to know where the information distribution process is breaking down.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
OMFG guild wars 2 just give us the game already... It's more than good enough as far as i know....!!"!¤"#%&"#¤"!"
I been looking around trying many mmorpg's lately. And i got bored of a few and a few was ok, but now i just can't wait much longer for gw2.
PS: hope my pc is good enough.,.,.,.,,.,.,.,,.,
I'll be buying both. Whichever releases first will likely get the most playtime. Reminds me of EQII and WoW... I ping ponged back and forth between the two before Blizzard finally won.
No bitchers.
I'll be buying both, and making long-term opinions based upon having played them.
However, I did have to "unfollow" Rockjaw on Twitter to keep my head in the game about SW:TOR. All his incessant and pointless Tweeting was almost enough for me to not purchase SW:TOR. Hehe...but that's me.
GW2 is designed to be almost impossible to grief someone else in PVE. No mob tagging, no node stealing, automatically mentoring players down so they can't 1-shot everything, etc.
So along the lines of that, no, enemies won't be able to use that fire wall, or else it would be possible for someone else to grief you by giving enemies that wall to shoot you through.
It might make no sense, but my philosophy is that gameplay should always come first over things like lore or realism.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
It makes as much sense as your team mates not taking damage from your AoE.