SpecOps types do way more than just one specialized task in the field. Hell, Rangers, FORECON and SEALs all are "specialized" but in field they do more than just one task. You are part of what's refered to as a "team" but every member is capable of doing what every other member of the "team" can do.
Got to love straw man arguments. Guild Wars 2 lack of dedicated healer into seperation of tasks in team orientated deployments of Special Operations.
Only on MMORPG.com.
Of course they do more than one task. But that wasn't the point. The point was that within their team, tasks are divided among them. Everyone doesn't do everything at the same time. Sure, if one teammate goes down, they can adapt. But that is irrelevant to the point. The point was that teams that divide tasks amongst each other operate more efficiently than teams that do not.
Reading comprehension.
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You are describing exactly how it will work in GW2 in areas where team coordination is required. Like the dungeons in exploration mode. Teams will divide tasks among them, and some professions are better equipped to heal or dps in certain situations. But even if they all play the same profession, they will divide tasks by selecting what skills to equip.
Just like with SpecOps, teammembers are not stuck into one role.
... People are talking about the rigid holy trinity forgetting that the thing is proven and there is a reason, why its prefered by many gamers. Don't get me wrong I like inovations and applaud GW 2 for it but I think in terms of classes they have gone the other extreme route by forcing everyone to multitask and fullfill professions they just don't like for whatever reason.
Don't care if people will hate me for saying it but I think there will be some huge drama stuff such as "I don't want to do damage I want to support....NO you have to tank..."...an open skillbased system would have fixed that.
I think the system basically thrives on doing your stuff an only combine it with the abilities from other playes instead of working in specific manners to accomplish a goal.
You're forgetting the one main reason the trinity has been successful, and it's something I haven't seen mentioned as of yet... the boss fights are designed with the trinity concept in mind. The only reason the trinity has been so successful is because the games that utilize that style are built to accomodate the trinity. Therefore, people in specific roles WILL do better, because the game demands it.
GW2 won't, however. The fights are going to be designed differently, so much so that anyone trying to use a trinity based style will be pre-destined to fail due to the rigidness of their strategy (and the fact the game simply won't allow you to specialize in any one area alone). GW2 will successfully slay the trinity simply because the fights will be designed not to work off a script or set of timers, but because they'll require a dynamically fluid set of tactics that may change on the fly.
Trinity style bosses - you have a set strategy. You follow the strategy or you fail (until you out-gear the fight).
Non-trinity GW2 style - you use fluid tactics that change as the situation changes. The trinity cannot do this.
It's actually funny to me that people continually cite the monk as the dominant healer in Guild Wars 1 when 2 other primary professions perform the role much better better using monk or some other profession as a secondary.
Have you ever played Guild Wars?
There's not a single profession that, over the course of the game, performed better at healing then the monk.
There have been short intervals when another profession did better as a FotM, but overall the Monk was your mainstay healer.
Idk, necro rits are considered generally better at healing, though I will say prot monks definitely have their place. Then again I never take monks with me unless I'm planning on dicking around with a full monk party.
Thus explaining why the vast majority of teams in both HA and GvG have a 2 monk backline....
Most professional teams employ one WoH/HB monk and one RC monk for their main backline.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
Im not sure what people expect here, but you will still be able to play a 'role'. In a team, but also during dynamic events. Depending on what profession you chose, you can equip mainly support skills. (buffs, heals, etc) or skills that are good setups for other players to make their combo through.
In groups during tough encounters like dungeons, you will still have one player that pulls and maybe some that mainly use support skills. For the more difficult encounters you probably also need to prepare and think about what skills to use. Even though there is no classic tank and spank in GW2, it doesnt automatically mean that its just dumb zerging.
The main difference is that any combination of professions will be able to divide those required roles and can bring the skills that are necessary. GW2 will just offer more flexibility for this.
Im not sure what people expect here, but you will still be able to play a 'role'. In a team, but also during dynamic events. Depending on what profession you chose, you can equip mainly support skills. (buffs, heals, etc) or skills that are good setups for other players to make their combo through.
In groups during tough encounters like dungeons, you will still have one player that pulls and maybe some that mainly use support skills.For the more difficult encounters you probably also need to prepare and think about what skills to use. Even though there is no classic tank and spank in GW2, it doesnt automatically mean that its just dumb zerging.
The main difference is that any combination of professions will be able to divide those required roles and can bring the skills that are necessary. GW2 will just offer more flexibility for this.
That's not entirely accurate. If you recall the discussion where the all warrior team went through one of the dungeons it wasn't a matter of someone pulling while someone else supported and someone else damaged... they all were using their skills to control the bosses to keep them off any particular player. You can't have a boss stand there and beat on you and expect to survive. The support skills won't work that efficiently. You're own self-heal is your most powerful heal remember. So you'll have, for example, the ranger crippling the bad guy, the elementalist slowing him down with water spells, the warrior applying knockdowns and cripples, etc... everyone working together at all aspects of combat to keep the bad guys from even being able to be in one players face for any significant period of time. Everyone controls. Everyone applies damage. Everyone helps allies with various buffs and boons.
You can make any class a healer if you tak the right abilitys, thats how guild wars 2 is set up, no need to overreact for nothing, it will just take some brain power to pick the right abilitys to build a healer
Of course they do more than one task. But that wasn't the point. The point was that within their team, tasks are divided among them. Everyone doesn't do everything at the same time. Sure, if one teammate goes down, they can adapt. But that is irrelevant to the point. The point was that teams that divide tasks amongst each other operate more efficiently than teams that do not.
Reading comprehension.
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*scratches head a bit*
Are you complaining about your own reading comprehension because you're unable to tell that's how GW2 is supposed to work, and the way they've stated it is designed?
That's weird. I've never heard anybody complain about their own lack of reading comprehension.
Not playing a game because it doesn't have a character class you like seems a bit shallow in the decision making process. But to each his own. If that is his critera, more power to him.
Of course they do more than one task. But that wasn't the point. The point was that within their team, tasks are divided among them. Everyone doesn't do everything at the same time. Sure, if one teammate goes down, they can adapt. But that is irrelevant to the point. The point was that teams that divide tasks amongst each other operate more efficiently than teams that do not.
Reading comprehension.
Only on MMORPG.com
*scratches head a bit*
Are you complaining about your own reading comprehension because you're unable to tell that's how GW2 is supposed to work, and the way they've stated it is designed?
That's weird. I've never heard anybody complain about their own lack of reading comprehension.
Oh well. Hey, whatever makes you happy, I guess.
No, this is an entirely different discussion between Fozzik and I. It has no basis on how GW2 actually works. If you had read my previous posts, you wouldn't have wasted everyone else's time with your smirk remarks.
Specilizations were created to increase effectiveness by making one's task more simple, more direct, and easier to accomplish. A group full of hybrids will never be as effective as a specialized group of the same skill level simply because the specialized group can focus all their skill, all their attention, and all their effort in performing one single task whilst the hybrid group has to worry about a plethora of elements.
...
given a certain kind of encounter. if the encounter is designed so that each individual in the group has to periodically switch from high damage to high mitigation to high recovery back to high damage, etc., the classic trinity group will be at a disadvantage. MMO specializations are a product of the way encounters were designed.
Charr: Outta my way. Human: What's your problem? Charr: Your thin skin.
Specilizations were created to increase effectiveness by making one's task more simple, more direct, and easier to accomplish. A group full of hybrids will never be as effective as a specialized group of the same skill level simply because the specialized group can focus all their skill, all their attention, and all their effort in performing one single task whilst the hybrid group has to worry about a plethora of elements.
...
given a certain kind of encounter. if the encounter is designed so that each individual in the group has to periodically switch from high damage to high mitigation to high recovery back to high damage, etc., the classic trinity group will be at a disadvantage. MMO specializations are a product of the way encounters were designed.
Of course they do more than one task. But that wasn't the point. The point was that within their team, tasks are divided among them. Everyone doesn't do everything at the same time. Sure, if one teammate goes down, they can adapt. But that is irrelevant to the point. The point was that teams that divide tasks amongst each other operate more efficiently than teams that do not. Reading comprehension. Only on MMORPG.com
*scratches head a bit* Are you complaining about your own reading comprehension because you're unable to tell that's how GW2 is supposed to work, and the way they've stated it is designed? That's weird. I've never heard anybody complain about their own lack of reading comprehension. Oh well. Hey, whatever makes you happy, I guess.
No, this is an entirely different discussion between Fozzik and I. It has no basis on how GW2 actually works. If you had read my previous posts, you wouldn't have wasted everyone else's time with your smirk remarks.
Actually, it turned out to just be a discussion between you and... you. I was talking about GW2 the whole time, and how the profession system works in the game. At some point you weren't talking about any specific game anymore and were talking instead about some generic, universal statement that nobody could argue with.
Seemed a little like various other conversations with you on the boards, where the minute you start to be shown to be incorrect, you start moving the goalposts of the discussion to other things.
Your initial premise was wrong on two fronts in the context of GW2... first, a group made up of people confined to strictly defined roles is NOT always ideal, it depends on what they are trying to accomplish. Second, GW2's profession system is NOT "everyone does everything all the time" in groups.
But since you were never talking about GW2 or anything pertaining to this thread (which seems odd), I suppose in whatever ambiguous context you were making your statement, it might be correct.
Originally posted by stealthbr Originally posted by semantikron
Originally posted by stealthbr
..
Specilizations were created to increase effectiveness by making one's task more simple, more direct, and easier to accomplish. A group full of hybrids will never be as effective as a specialized group of the same skill level simply because the specialized group can focus all their skill, all their attention, and all their effort in performing one single task whilst the hybrid group has to worry about a plethora of elements. ... given a certain kind of encounter. if the encounter is designed so that each individual in the group has to periodically switch from high damage to high mitigation to high recovery back to high damage, etc., the classic trinity group will be at a disadvantage. MMO specializations are a product of the way encounters were designed. A good answer, and one I would agree with.
LOL! That's exactly what I said several pages ago...and you continued arguing. Selective reading comprehension is selective.
LOL! That's exactly what I said several pages ago...and you continued arguing. Selective reading comprehension is selective.
Yes, you stated it but in a more generalized way. The other poster gave a good example that got me thinking about it through a different perspective. It's one of those "Oh snap!" moments where you can connect to what the guy actually states to something else in your mind.
I think what people have misunderstood the developers here are that
There are dedicated healers, BUT they aren't compulsory for a group success. There are traits and certain attunements that makes you play more towards the healing support/buff type, but if you are looking for the WoW healer experience of continous clicking your raid frames for quick heals, look elsewhere please, stop whining.
People need to understand that dedicated healer isn't compulsory to a group's success, and this is evident is many team based games, out side MMORPG.
League of Legends, or DOTA, have no dedicated healers, yet it requires all 5 person's effort together to succeed as a team.
Team fortress 2, yes there is a dedicated healer class, but if you have played the game long enough, there are many games wons without even one single healer in a team.
Many people ask for change from the WoW method, and GW2 has tried that, they might not be to your liking, so just find something else that interest you.
PS: I have skipped most of these post, I could not be bother to read over 100+ post to get here, so this is jsut directed to OP
PSS: and OP should jsut quit his job, they are obviously bad influence :P
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW? As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
I think what people have misunderstood the developers here are that
There are dedicated healers, BUT they aren't compulsory for a group success. There are traits and certain attunements that makes you play more towards the healing support/buff type, but if you are looking for the WoW healer experience of continous clicking your raid frames for quick heals, look elsewhere please, stop whining.
People need to understand that dedicated healer isn't compulsory to a group's success, and this is evident is many team based games, out side MMORPG.
League of Legends, or DOTA, have no dedicated healers, yet it requires all 5 person's effort together to succeed as a team.
Team fortress 2, yes there is a dedicated healer class, but if you have played the game long enough, there are many games wons without even one single healer in a team.
Many people ask for change from the WoW method, and GW2 has tried that, they might not be to your liking, so just find something else that interest you.
PS: I have skipped most of these post, I could not be bother to read over 100+ post to get here, so this is jsut directed to OP
PSS: and OP should jsut quit his job, they are obviously bad influence :P
Being able to build towards support doesn't define dedicated healer. Dedication to single aspect of the gameplay - healing - does. In GW2 that sort of dedication is not only unnecessary for success, but it's counterproductive to it. Even if you could effectively heal others (which is impossible due to lack of reliable target heals and focus on personal healing), you would still be underperforming, because this game is designed around changing roles (for example, inability to reliably tank encourages aggro juggling). Obviously, you can focus on some aspects more, but forfeiting remaining ones is going to get you killed, which is exact opposite to how dedicated healers work.
I think what people have misunderstood the developers here are that
There are dedicated healers...
Gonna stop you right there. You don't know what you're talking about. There are no dedicated healing classes in GW2, and there's barely any kind of healing but self-healing in the midst of battle. The only example I've seen is an elementalist's water attunement, and they will NOT be required or asked to join dungons just because of that, as the action will be too spaced out and frantic to depend on a ground-based skill.
I think what people have misunderstood the developers here are that
There are dedicated healers...
Gonna stop you right there. You don't know what you're talking about. There are no dedicated healing classes in GW2, and there's barely any kind of healing but self-healing in the midst of battle. The only example I've seen is an elementalist's water attunement, and they will NOT be required or asked to join dungons just because of that, as the action will be too spaced out and frantic to depend on a ground-based skill.
You obviously didn't even bother with the rest of the post anyway, I guess my capital BUT didn't mean anything
First thing first,
dedicated healers is NOT dedicated healing class.
dedicated does NOT mean compulsory
healer does NOT mean only health healing
Engineer can put med packs on the ground for others to pick up and heal, Guardians can accelerate regeneration prevent opponent's movements, Ranger being 'jack of all trades' I'll be surprise if they can't heal/support others to a certain extend.
They basically took the traditional healer in the trinity and give those elements to all their new classes. You can see elements of healers in most class,
Elementalist having the health regen aspect,
Guardian has the shield and damage prevention,
Engineer has the back up heal or the life line support
Necro probably have some life stealing and healing
These are all elements of what makes a dedicated healer, and with traits to define your character, you will understand someone character can be directed into the support roles. Will they be clicking health bars only? NO
Devs has said many times GW2 aren't restricting you to play any class, the idea behind it is that, you can play whatever you want. They know some likes the whole healing aspect of things, and you can tell they won't restrict you from playing what you want.
Maybe its just a different intepretation of what dedicated healer is, I define healer to more than just regen health, but also to buff, dispel debuff, shields, resurrect other players. The fact that everyone can rez others makes everyone a some what healer.
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW? As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
I think what people have misunderstood the developers here are that
There are dedicated healers...
Gonna stop you right there. You don't know what you're talking about. There are no dedicated healing classes in GW2, and there's barely any kind of healing but self-healing in the midst of battle. The only example I've seen is an elementalist's water attunement, and they will NOT be required or asked to join dungons just because of that, as the action will be too spaced out and frantic to depend on a ground-based skill.
You obviously didn't even bother with the rest of the post anyway, I guess my capital BUT didn't mean anything
First thing first,
dedicated healers is NOT dedicated healing class.
dedicated does NOT mean compulsory
healer does NOT mean only health healing
Engineer can put med packs on the ground for others to pick up and heal, Guardians can accelerate regeneration prevent opponent's movements, Ranger being 'jack of all trades' I'll be surprise if they can't heal/support others to a certain extend.
They basically took the traditional healer in the trinity and give those elements to all their new classes. You can see elements of healers in most class,
Elementalist having the health regen aspect,
Guardian has the shield and damage prevention,
Engineer has the back up heal or the life line support
Necro probably have some life stealing and healing
These are all elements of what makes a dedicated healer, and with traits to define your character, you will understand someone character can be directed into the support roles. Will they be clicking health bars only? NO
Devs has said many times GW2 aren't restricting you to play any class, the idea behind it is that, you can play whatever you want. They know some likes the whole healing aspect of things, and you can tell they won't restrict you from playing what you want.
Maybe its just a different intepretation of what dedicated healer is, I define healer to more than just regen health, but also to buff, dispel debuff, shields, resurrect other players. The fact that everyone can rez others makes everyone a some what healer.
by having a defination of a healer that goes against nearly everyone else , you are confusing the discussion alot! I advise you to use Support instead for what you are talking about ! Thats what ArenaNet do, and it makes less confussion!
Then by that definition the Bard in Rift is a Healer, since most of the time as a bard, I'm raid healing. It doesn't matter that the main reason a Bard is used in a Raid or Party is because of their various buffs & mana regen skills they provide. As you explained to us, because they can heal & mitigate damage, then they are a healer.
There's really no need to delve further into your lengthy post, because those 3 points really show how little you understand about basic MMO mechanics.
Then by that definition the Bard in Rift is a Healer, since most of the time as a bard, I'm raid healing. It doesn't matter that the main reason a Bard is used in a Raid or Party is because of their various buffs & mana regen skills they provide. As you explained to us, because they can heal & mitigate damage, then they are a healer.
There's really no need to delve further into your lengthy post, because those 3 points really show how little you understand about basic MMO mechanics.
Whats the point of understanding current basic MMO mechanics now, the mechanics are practically broken, thats why GW2 is set out to find new ones.
With that said, yes I do consider Bard in Rift as a SUB-category under healer, since it only performs certain abilities of a proper healer, but it certainly is not a dedicated healer because it cannot perform that role to utmost proficiency.
The main problem with MMO trinity class is that, the healer role is so precised in what it needs to function as, so players don't have a choice in what you need to achieve in order to be successful. You need to heal big numbers, end of story.
(I actually wrote another 531 words to support my argument in what makes a healer, healer. But since people have tendacies to skip anything after the first main point and make assumptions of the rest of the post, thought it would be a waste and so deleted and saved for future uses.)
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW? As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
I would just like to say something to try and clear things up around here (this should be obvious to everyone here):
Dedicated: This means that you are the guy people depend on to do the task. It means that a failure to do the task is that person's fault.
Healer: A person given the task of healing and maintaining the health of the party members. The role of healing falls under the support role.
Support: The role of support is that of supporting your team mates rather than directly entering into combat. Support can do many things, like buffing, healing, removing debuffs, and generally...supporting the team.
GW2 does not have a healing (or support) class, or a tank (or control) class, or a DPS class for that matter. All classes can do all things at different times.
Forming groups around traditional dedicated roles in GW2 is inefficient, as players have the ability to switch to the required role as needed. This means that no player will be forced to do the same thing over and over within a group. Therefore, any "dedicated" roles will be situational, and may change from one fight to the next. More of a strategic plan of action than a rote way of designing and balancing group combat.
Elementalists (and maybe some other classes) have been mentioned as being very good at support and healing, but keep in mind that the game isn't going to let you sit in the back and spam heals on your party, like a dedicated healer.
Cooldowns on heals means that there is a long time spent doing nothing but sitting or kiting. You are going to find that you can easily use your heal skills on others why being the fire flinging terror or the earth shaking juggernaut that elementalists can be.
you can't target allies with skills. All skills of this sort are self targeting or target areas. This is mostly to have players focus on the fight instead of UI.
Any heals other than self heals, which everyone has, are going to be small in scale compared to damage being dealt to you. Mostly it is to keep players alive in situations where they might not make it long enough for their heal skill to recharge. Players are supposed to keep themselves alive for the most part.
There you have it. It is pretty simple. You are your healer, you can be any role you want whenever you want to be that role, and there are no dedicated roles because if somebody gets downed, you can jump in and take his place while he gets back up.
Oh...and with the number of things in the game that can one shot heavy armor guys, don't think tanks will be like they are in other games either.
I used to TL;DR, but then I took a bullet point to the footnote.
I didn't skip anything, I corrected an inaccurate statement that preceded an argument that actually went in an entirely different direction. If I HAD skipped the rest, it wouldn't have mattered, because the foundation was already crumbling.
Dedicated. I don't think it means what you think it means.
Maybe its just a different intepretation of what dedicated healer is, I define healer to more than just regen health, but also to buff, dispel debuff, shields, resurrect other players. The fact that everyone can rez others makes everyone a some what healer.
In one paragraph, you attempted to support your definition of dedicated healer by dropping two different kinds of other healer definitions - "healer and somewhat healer". Is "healer" the same as "dedicated healer"? You have a confusing way of looking at something astoundingly simple.
All I was saying is that GW2 does not have dedicated healers, as you stated - as in, classes that through specialization or otherwise, are dedicated to keeping a group alive and not troubling themselves with damage dealing or direct defense (or in the case of most MMOs, not doing much but watching health bars and stepping out of the fire).
Even if you define a healer as more than just healing, there are STILL nothing that resemble "dedicated" (ie: absolute nothing but) healers in GW2. Trying to pigeon-hole the game into the tired Trinity aspect of "healing", when there has been every indication otherwise, is undermining what ANet has worked for. If anything, every class in GW2 would barely fit your definition of Somewhat Healer, but nothing more.
It's the same with tanking, and the arguments I've seen regarding tanking. There are no tanks in GW2, but watch people on day 1 assume you need a Guardian for a run to be successful, even though every facet of traditional tanking (ie: aggro) is absent from the GW2 engine. There will be a lot of really bad players if people keep assuming this is WoW.
Comments
You are describing exactly how it will work in GW2 in areas where team coordination is required. Like the dungeons in exploration mode. Teams will divide tasks among them, and some professions are better equipped to heal or dps in certain situations. But even if they all play the same profession, they will divide tasks by selecting what skills to equip.
Just like with SpecOps, teammembers are not stuck into one role.
You're forgetting the one main reason the trinity has been successful, and it's something I haven't seen mentioned as of yet... the boss fights are designed with the trinity concept in mind. The only reason the trinity has been so successful is because the games that utilize that style are built to accomodate the trinity. Therefore, people in specific roles WILL do better, because the game demands it.
GW2 won't, however. The fights are going to be designed differently, so much so that anyone trying to use a trinity based style will be pre-destined to fail due to the rigidness of their strategy (and the fact the game simply won't allow you to specialize in any one area alone). GW2 will successfully slay the trinity simply because the fights will be designed not to work off a script or set of timers, but because they'll require a dynamically fluid set of tactics that may change on the fly.
Trinity style bosses - you have a set strategy. You follow the strategy or you fail (until you out-gear the fight).
Non-trinity GW2 style - you use fluid tactics that change as the situation changes. The trinity cannot do this.
Oderint, dum metuant.
Thus explaining why the vast majority of teams in both HA and GvG have a 2 monk backline....
Most professional teams employ one WoH/HB monk and one RC monk for their main backline.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")
Im not sure what people expect here, but you will still be able to play a 'role'. In a team, but also during dynamic events. Depending on what profession you chose, you can equip mainly support skills. (buffs, heals, etc) or skills that are good setups for other players to make their combo through.
In groups during tough encounters like dungeons, you will still have one player that pulls and maybe some that mainly use support skills. For the more difficult encounters you probably also need to prepare and think about what skills to use. Even though there is no classic tank and spank in GW2, it doesnt automatically mean that its just dumb zerging.
The main difference is that any combination of professions will be able to divide those required roles and can bring the skills that are necessary. GW2 will just offer more flexibility for this.
That's not entirely accurate. If you recall the discussion where the all warrior team went through one of the dungeons it wasn't a matter of someone pulling while someone else supported and someone else damaged... they all were using their skills to control the bosses to keep them off any particular player. You can't have a boss stand there and beat on you and expect to survive. The support skills won't work that efficiently. You're own self-heal is your most powerful heal remember. So you'll have, for example, the ranger crippling the bad guy, the elementalist slowing him down with water spells, the warrior applying knockdowns and cripples, etc... everyone working together at all aspects of combat to keep the bad guys from even being able to be in one players face for any significant period of time. Everyone controls. Everyone applies damage. Everyone helps allies with various buffs and boons.
Oderint, dum metuant.
You can make any class a healer if you tak the right abilitys, thats how guild wars 2 is set up, no need to overreact for nothing, it will just take some brain power to pick the right abilitys to build a healer
Mess with the best, Die like the rest
*scratches head a bit*
Are you complaining about your own reading comprehension because you're unable to tell that's how GW2 is supposed to work, and the way they've stated it is designed?
That's weird. I've never heard anybody complain about their own lack of reading comprehension.
Oh well. Hey, whatever makes you happy, I guess.
Not playing a game because it doesn't have a character class you like seems a bit shallow in the decision making process. But to each his own. If that is his critera, more power to him.
I self identify as a monkey.
This undead abomination of a thread is still going?
My theme song.
No, this is an entirely different discussion between Fozzik and I. It has no basis on how GW2 actually works. If you had read my previous posts, you wouldn't have wasted everyone else's time with your smirk remarks.
given a certain kind of encounter. if the encounter is designed so that each individual in the group has to periodically switch from high damage to high mitigation to high recovery back to high damage, etc., the classic trinity group will be at a disadvantage. MMO specializations are a product of the way encounters were designed.
Charr: Outta my way.
Human: What's your problem?
Charr: Your thin skin.
A good answer, and one I would agree with.
Actually, it turned out to just be a discussion between you and... you. I was talking about GW2 the whole time, and how the profession system works in the game. At some point you weren't talking about any specific game anymore and were talking instead about some generic, universal statement that nobody could argue with.
Seemed a little like various other conversations with you on the boards, where the minute you start to be shown to be incorrect, you start moving the goalposts of the discussion to other things.
Your initial premise was wrong on two fronts in the context of GW2... first, a group made up of people confined to strictly defined roles is NOT always ideal, it depends on what they are trying to accomplish. Second, GW2's profession system is NOT "everyone does everything all the time" in groups.
But since you were never talking about GW2 or anything pertaining to this thread (which seems odd), I suppose in whatever ambiguous context you were making your statement, it might be correct.
...
given a certain kind of encounter. if the encounter is designed so that each individual in the group has to periodically switch from high damage to high mitigation to high recovery back to high damage, etc., the classic trinity group will be at a disadvantage. MMO specializations are a product of the way encounters were designed.
A good answer, and one I would agree with.
LOL! That's exactly what I said several pages ago...and you continued arguing. Selective reading comprehension is selective.
Yes, you stated it but in a more generalized way. The other poster gave a good example that got me thinking about it through a different perspective. It's one of those "Oh snap!" moments where you can connect to what the guy actually states to something else in your mind.
I think what people have misunderstood the developers here are that
There are dedicated healers, BUT they aren't compulsory for a group success. There are traits and certain attunements that makes you play more towards the healing support/buff type, but if you are looking for the WoW healer experience of continous clicking your raid frames for quick heals, look elsewhere please, stop whining.
People need to understand that dedicated healer isn't compulsory to a group's success, and this is evident is many team based games, out side MMORPG.
League of Legends, or DOTA, have no dedicated healers, yet it requires all 5 person's effort together to succeed as a team.
Team fortress 2, yes there is a dedicated healer class, but if you have played the game long enough, there are many games wons without even one single healer in a team.
Many people ask for change from the WoW method, and GW2 has tried that, they might not be to your liking, so just find something else that interest you.
PS: I have skipped most of these post, I could not be bother to read over 100+ post to get here, so this is jsut directed to OP
PSS: and OP should jsut quit his job, they are obviously bad influence :P
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
Being able to build towards support doesn't define dedicated healer. Dedication to single aspect of the gameplay - healing - does. In GW2 that sort of dedication is not only unnecessary for success, but it's counterproductive to it. Even if you could effectively heal others (which is impossible due to lack of reliable target heals and focus on personal healing), you would still be underperforming, because this game is designed around changing roles (for example, inability to reliably tank encourages aggro juggling). Obviously, you can focus on some aspects more, but forfeiting remaining ones is going to get you killed, which is exact opposite to how dedicated healers work.
You obviously didn't even bother with the rest of the post anyway, I guess my capital BUT didn't mean anything
First thing first,
dedicated healers is NOT dedicated healing class.
dedicated does NOT mean compulsory
healer does NOT mean only health healing
Engineer can put med packs on the ground for others to pick up and heal, Guardians can accelerate regeneration prevent opponent's movements, Ranger being 'jack of all trades' I'll be surprise if they can't heal/support others to a certain extend.
They basically took the traditional healer in the trinity and give those elements to all their new classes. You can see elements of healers in most class,
Elementalist having the health regen aspect,
Guardian has the shield and damage prevention,
Engineer has the back up heal or the life line support
Necro probably have some life stealing and healing
These are all elements of what makes a dedicated healer, and with traits to define your character, you will understand someone character can be directed into the support roles. Will they be clicking health bars only? NO
Devs has said many times GW2 aren't restricting you to play any class, the idea behind it is that, you can play whatever you want. They know some likes the whole healing aspect of things, and you can tell they won't restrict you from playing what you want.
Maybe its just a different intepretation of what dedicated healer is, I define healer to more than just regen health, but also to buff, dispel debuff, shields, resurrect other players. The fact that everyone can rez others makes everyone a some what healer.
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
by having a defination of a healer that goes against nearly everyone else , you are confusing the discussion alot! I advise you to use Support instead for what you are talking about ! Thats what ArenaNet do, and it makes less confussion!
Then by that definition the Bard in Rift is a Healer, since most of the time as a bard, I'm raid healing. It doesn't matter that the main reason a Bard is used in a Raid or Party is because of their various buffs & mana regen skills they provide. As you explained to us, because they can heal & mitigate damage, then they are a healer.
There's really no need to delve further into your lengthy post, because those 3 points really show how little you understand about basic MMO mechanics.
Whats the point of understanding current basic MMO mechanics now, the mechanics are practically broken, thats why GW2 is set out to find new ones.
With that said, yes I do consider Bard in Rift as a SUB-category under healer, since it only performs certain abilities of a proper healer, but it certainly is not a dedicated healer because it cannot perform that role to utmost proficiency.
The main problem with MMO trinity class is that, the healer role is so precised in what it needs to function as, so players don't have a choice in what you need to achieve in order to be successful. You need to heal big numbers, end of story.
(I actually wrote another 531 words to support my argument in what makes a healer, healer. But since people have tendacies to skip anything after the first main point and make assumptions of the rest of the post, thought it would be a waste and so deleted and saved for future uses.)
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
I would just like to say something to try and clear things up around here (this should be obvious to everyone here):
Dedicated: This means that you are the guy people depend on to do the task. It means that a failure to do the task is that person's fault.
Healer: A person given the task of healing and maintaining the health of the party members. The role of healing falls under the support role.
Support: The role of support is that of supporting your team mates rather than directly entering into combat. Support can do many things, like buffing, healing, removing debuffs, and generally...supporting the team.
GW2 does not have a healing (or support) class, or a tank (or control) class, or a DPS class for that matter. All classes can do all things at different times.
Forming groups around traditional dedicated roles in GW2 is inefficient, as players have the ability to switch to the required role as needed. This means that no player will be forced to do the same thing over and over within a group. Therefore, any "dedicated" roles will be situational, and may change from one fight to the next. More of a strategic plan of action than a rote way of designing and balancing group combat.
Elementalists (and maybe some other classes) have been mentioned as being very good at support and healing, but keep in mind that the game isn't going to let you sit in the back and spam heals on your party, like a dedicated healer.
Cooldowns on heals means that there is a long time spent doing nothing but sitting or kiting. You are going to find that you can easily use your heal skills on others why being the fire flinging terror or the earth shaking juggernaut that elementalists can be.
you can't target allies with skills. All skills of this sort are self targeting or target areas. This is mostly to have players focus on the fight instead of UI.
Any heals other than self heals, which everyone has, are going to be small in scale compared to damage being dealt to you. Mostly it is to keep players alive in situations where they might not make it long enough for their heal skill to recharge. Players are supposed to keep themselves alive for the most part.
There you have it. It is pretty simple. You are your healer, you can be any role you want whenever you want to be that role, and there are no dedicated roles because if somebody gets downed, you can jump in and take his place while he gets back up.
Oh...and with the number of things in the game that can one shot heavy armor guys, don't think tanks will be like they are in other games either.
I used to TL;DR, but then I took a bullet point to the footnote.
I didn't skip anything, I corrected an inaccurate statement that preceded an argument that actually went in an entirely different direction. If I HAD skipped the rest, it wouldn't have mattered, because the foundation was already crumbling.
Dedicated. I don't think it means what you think it means.