I have come to the conclusion that the reason Anet has left out Raiding Dungeons was because it doesn't have a Trinity. Everything has to be zerg and juggle.
Lets take a look at the difference between Zerg Raiding and Tatical Raiding. I will use Rift as an example since its a game many here have played it. Well can you remember the zone event in Stillmoor were we have to fight the big ugly boss npc with our giant faction bosses? Well clearly that sort of fight can be zerged down. It doesn't require tactics y To beat, yet it still a raid. But now compare it to the boss fights in the Raid Dungeon, which require team tactics and a Trinity group to beat it. Which is more harder and more fun; the Zerg Zone Boss Fights; or the Tactical Trinity Boss fights?
The trinity is used up and beat to death, personally im tired of it. most people i know are tired of it. there is no so called tactics in the trinity the only person that " might " have any kind of tactic is the dude CCing stuff. but other than that its the same crap every time send in the tank and heal him...loads of fun.....
In all honesty if you're looking for "good" pve in GW2 you are looking at the wrong game. You can argue all you like, but the main attraction of GW2 will be pvp, which I personally think the non-trinity based game will make it much more interesting.
Some people just can't conceive of another way of playing these games other than Tanking, Healing, and Spanking.
Quick quiz, what are some other ways of controling an enemy other than having them concentrate on one ally.
Don't worry, they'll figure it out once a game without taunt mechanics exists.
Gotta be enough CoX vets out there that still remember how to drive a controller.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Some people just can't conceive of another way of playing these games other than Tanking, Healing, and Spanking. Quick quiz, what are some other ways of controling an enemy other than having them concentrate on one ally.
Don't worry, they'll figure it out once a game without taunt mechanics exists.
Gotta be enough CoX vets out there that still remember how to drive a controller.
we already have many games like it. Hey even gw1 pve was like it
The ignorance in this thread is unreal. Trinity raiding these days is based around finding enough people who are not terrible at their role and don't stand in fires. Calling it Tactical vs Zerg is amusing, the only people who really have active control of a trinity encounter are the raid leader and possibly the best healer. GW2 system will attempt to put equal pressure on all group members to perform well and if done right should be much more entertaining than trinity.
The ignorance in this thread is unreal. Trinity raiding these days is based around finding enough people who are not terrible at their role and don't stand in fires. Calling it Tactical vs Zerg is amusing, the only people who really have active control of a trinity encounter are the raid leader and possibly the best healer. GW2 system will attempt to put equal pressure on all group members to perform well and if done right should be much more entertaining than trinity.
Well there may be ignorance in this thread, but not from my post. What many has to understand is that the scripts for these encounters are complimentary to two game design elements. One being that the script has to be in compliance with the overall AI design of the creatures in the world. That AI design has to be in compliance with combat mechanics. For one to fully say there is ignorance in this thread you have to understand game design first. There are many layers upon layers of game design that one has to see to understand it fully.
Do you know why the trinity was established? The trinity is not separate classes but 3 roles that are equal to have victory. MMORPG's were design to be multiplayer. At least within the trinity spectrum. Many people believe that GW2 will be full fledge zerg. That may be the case in some instance of encounters and may not. A zerg happens when there is no dedicated role to fullfill to compliment other roles. The only trinity role that is missing from GW2 is a dedicated healer. So in reality each person has a responsibility to heal themselves.
Essentially zerging and trinity fights are soley based on class design, combat mechanics, AI and the script to put the encounter together. If you have a trinity it's not necessarly that you will or wont zerg. Players base their strategy off what classes or build are accessible at the given time and the script that follows.
What exactly is zerging that people are refering to?
My previous definition has been overwhelming the opposition with superior numbers. But it seems like here, anything without a Trinity setup is considered a zerg.
It might be worth looking into but I hate your coining of the term "tactical". I know what you mean but I think "precision" would be a better choice. Tactics, by its very definition, can take place in any spectrum of conflict. I don't agree with your conclusions based on your example but it may very well be that there are no raids because game mechanics won't really allow for it. I think you may be looking at a third variable situation here: ie: your two variables don't covary.
If you really think it's the case, I'd love to see some more examples because I think it's a really cool topic, and frankly, I wish more topics like this came up on this site.
Well there may be ignorance in this thread, but not from my post. What many has to understand is that the scripts for these encounters are complimentary to two game design elements. One being that the script has to be in compliance with the overall AI design of the creatures in the world. That AI design has to be in compliance with combat mechanics. For one to fully say there is ignorance in this thread you have to understand game design first. There are many layers upon layers of game design that one has to see to understand it fully.
Do you know why the trinity was established? The trinity is not separate classes but 3 roles that are equal to have victory. MMORPG's were design to be multiplayer. At least within the trinity spectrum. Many people believe that GW2 will be full fledge zerg. That may be the case in some instance of encounters and may not. A zerg happens when there is no dedicated role to fullfill to compliment other roles. The only trinity role that is missing from GW2 is a dedicated healer. So in reality each person has a responsibility to heal themselves.
Essentially zerging and trinity fights are soley based on class design, combat mechanics, AI and the script to put the encounter together. If you have a trinity it's not necessarly that you will or wont zerg. Players base their strategy off what classes or build are accessible at the given time and the script that follows.
I think you can make an argument that the holy trinity was born out of ignorance of game mechanics by the designers themselves. You put a bunch of classes in a game, like Everquest, and you want them to do different things, so you have like
Warrior: High armor, medium damage, no healing
Ranger: Medium armor, medium-high damage, light healing
Wizard: Low armor, high damage, no healing
Cleric: High armor, low damage, high healing
Shaman: Medium armor, medium damage, medium healing
so they all kind of balance one another.
At the earliest days of EQ, you could probably have a lot of different group compositions, especially with that 6th person. Maybe you have one tank but two healers, or two tanks and one healer, or medium armored tanks but two healers, etc. It kind of works itself out.
There really wasn't any specialization in the early days of EQ, gear had stats on it, but there wasn't anything like +Spellpower initially. So probably not a ton of power creep for a while.
The problem arises when you want to make content harder, because the easiest way to make content harder is to make the mob hit harder. EQ used this a lot. There were a TON of tank and spank fights. I'm trying to think back to at what point it went from "we should get a warrior" to "we need a warrior". I really can't, it makes me think it was so gradual we didn't even realize that it was happening.
From there it's pretty much a viscious cycle. Tanks stack more and more defensive stuff. Pretty soon DPS aren't tanking anything and they can focus solely on dps. Tanks need more and more additional threat mechanics to be able to hold aggro. Mobs become balanced around the maximum defense and dps that the previous tier's gear can provide. And so on until you've got a situation where mobs are counterintuitively attacking the only 1-2 people in the 25 person raid that they couldn't kill in two seconds.
WoW, even though it is a lot about gear, still does add boss mechanic on top of boss mechanic to add difficulty as well. I wonder if the early game designers had focused more on adding complexity than adding mob damage and hps, maybe we wouldn't see such strict Holy Trinity roles today.
GW2 isn't a zerg, and it does have roles, but they're trying to break that vicious cycle. Pure power in healing isn't there, you can only support what others are doing for themselves. You can't trade hits with mobs, you've got to dodge and use your cooldowns to mitigate damage, meaning you can't tank forever. Nobody can do everything at once, you've got to work together and plan a flexible strategy ahead of time and build your limited skillbars accordingly.
The other huge thing I think is that any player can rez another anytime in GW2, it just takes longer each time. In a game like WoW where that isn't an option, players seethe at the thought of randomness in the encounter. You can't program a boss that he'll spike and kill the tank in 5% of attempts and there's nothing you can do about it (When M'uru was overtuned, players complained about 1% inherent spell resist being enough to wipe the raid if RNG screwed you at a critical moment). In GW2, you could have a boss just straight up deathtouch random people. It can put you in situations that would be automatic wipes in other games. In GW2, you can fight your way out of the hole if you can adjust your tactics on the fly.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it."-Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
If in gw2 anyone can heal or tank or dps at the distance of a click..then why have different classes/profession?
When there are many classes to choose from each should have a speciality..thats why there are classes to choose from.
LOL. Then why does any trinity MMO have more than 3 classes? I mean, all you need is a healer class, a tank class, and a dps class right? Any more is just pointless and redundant.
If in gw2 anyone can heal or tank or dps at the distance of a click..then why have different classes/profession?
When there are many classes to choose from each should have a speciality..thats why there are classes to choose from.
LOL. Then why does any trinity MMO have more than 3 classes? I mean, all you need is a healer class, a tank class, and a dps class right? Any more is just pointless and redundant.
Because different classes do their roles a little differently. A thief/rogue/assassin architype doesn't play the same as a ranger/hunter/ranged damage dealer. The same can be said with casters and warriors. I mean sure a game can be as limited as you state, but I don't suspect many will want to play it and if they do, not for long. People like options and choices. It's pretty simple really.
I don't think GW2 will be a zergfest in the OP's way of describing it. I think groups can try it that way but they may find out the mobs zerg back and they may not like it And I couldn't add to your pol count because the question was weighted and not accurate to what I think.
Well there may be ignorance in this thread, but not from my post. What many has to understand is that the scripts for these encounters are complimentary to two game design elements. One being that the script has to be in compliance with the overall AI design of the creatures in the world. That AI design has to be in compliance with combat mechanics. For one to fully say there is ignorance in this thread you have to understand game design first. There are many layers upon layers of game design that one has to see to understand it fully.
Do you know why the trinity was established? The trinity is not separate classes but 3 roles that are equal to have victory. MMORPG's were design to be multiplayer. At least within the trinity spectrum. Many people believe that GW2 will be full fledge zerg. That may be the case in some instance of encounters and may not. A zerg happens when there is no dedicated role to fullfill to compliment other roles. The only trinity role that is missing from GW2 is a dedicated healer. So in reality each person has a responsibility to heal themselves.
Essentially zerging and trinity fights are soley based on class design, combat mechanics, AI and the script to put the encounter together. If you have a trinity it's not necessarly that you will or wont zerg. Players base their strategy off what classes or build are accessible at the given time and the script that follows.
I think you can make an argument that the holy trinity was born out of ignorance of game mechanics by the designers themselves. You put a bunch of classes in a game, like Everquest, and you want them to do different things, so you have like
I think you may have misunderstood and didn't make it more clear. The trinity wasn't necessarly made out of ignorance, the trinity is a band of roles. I assumed that people know what a class really is. Here is a good definition.
What really is a class? A class is a deviation of an archetype, a different way of playing a role that fits a particular theme that is more than likely based off lore elements. The archetype is the function of the role. For an example, an archetype can be categorized by the following; Tank, melee DPS, caster DPS, support and healing. In order to set the foundation of the class, the archetype must be balanced first.
Well there may be ignorance in this thread, but not from my post. What many has to understand is that the scripts for these encounters are complimentary to two game design elements. One being that the script has to be in compliance with the overall AI design of the creatures in the world. That AI design has to be in compliance with combat mechanics. For one to fully say there is ignorance in this thread you have to understand game design first. There are many layers upon layers of game design that one has to see to understand it fully.
Do you know why the trinity was established? The trinity is not separate classes but 3 roles that are equal to have victory. MMORPG's were design to be multiplayer. At least within the trinity spectrum. Many people believe that GW2 will be full fledge zerg. That may be the case in some instance of encounters and may not. A zerg happens when there is no dedicated role to fullfill to compliment other roles. The only trinity role that is missing from GW2 is a dedicated healer. So in reality each person has a responsibility to heal themselves.
Essentially zerging and trinity fights are soley based on class design, combat mechanics, AI and the script to put the encounter together. If you have a trinity it's not necessarly that you will or wont zerg. Players base their strategy off what classes or build are accessible at the given time and the script that follows.
I think you can make an argument that the holy trinity was born out of ignorance of game mechanics by the designers themselves. You put a bunch of classes in a game, like Everquest, and you want them to do different things, so you have like
I think you may have misunderstood and didn't make it more clear. The trinity wasn't necessarly made out of ignorance, the trinity is a band of roles. I assumed that people know what a class really is. Here is a good definition.
What really is a class? A class is a deviation of an archetype, a different way of playing a role that fits a particular theme that is more than likely based off lore elements. The archetype is the function of the role. For an example, an archetype can be categorized by the following; Tank, melee DPS, caster DPS, support and healing. In order to set the foundation of the class, the archetype must be balanced first.
You look at things from trinity point of view. Archetype will be irelevant in gw2, what will be still relevant is role. Noone said u can complete dungeon in gw2 with 5 ppl just focusing on dps and those who expect this should wake up realy fast. Ppl will have to perform similiar roles as in trinity but they will have to switch between them during combat, due both tanking and healing seems to be quite weaker than in trinity = no dedicated tank and no dedicated healer.
But you will still need ppl to do similiar tasks as in those roles . Blocking way to mobs, evading, blocking attacks is still tanking . Increasing hp regen and group heals is still healing, you still have there all tasks performed by trinity. What changes is that no class can just focus on single role and perform it for group in dungeon with enough power that rest of group doesnt have to bother with it.
Anet decision to weaken healing and tanking role is imo quite wise, otherwise you would just have another system similiar to Rift and some proffesion would be forced to play pure healers and pure tanks for dungeons in gw2.
Take WoW druids, what archetype they are ? Your attempt to put classes into archetypes complety fails here - even in quite strict trinity game. I remmember ppl in WoW to qq about druids - how they shoudnt be able to tank, heal and dps just by switching form. Quite rightly, in trinity game this is quite op, but if you decide to dump trinity archetypes for classes, it opens a lot variability. I bet that GW2 is dream game for all WoW druid players who wanted to play true hybrids, becouse in gw2 all proffesions are hybrids from trinity point of view.
And to all who think that dumping trinity in gw2 will lead to just zerging - hybrid gameplay is not zerging. And i can see to be actualy quite a chalenging for players who used to do just their 'rotation' in trinity mmos.
You know, I actually think that GW2's model has the potential to be more tactical than trinity models.
In trinity models, you know exactly what you will be doing before you even join the group most of the time. If you are a healer, you will be healing. If you are a tank, you will be tanking. if you are DPS...you get the idea.
I really don't see the tactics here. Once you learn the "tactic" of tank and spank once, you've got it for the rest of the game. It's pretty simple. You're basically locked into doing one specific tactic forever by the game system.
GW2's system on the other hand does not lock you into anything. You are provided with many abilities that support your team-mates like shields, supply drops, or walls that give buffs to melee and projectiles and harm enemies. There are no easy buffs like traditional targeted buffs that you just apply and forget about, or click F2 and then cast.
You're really going to have a high situational awareness at all times to succeed (provided they make it hard enough!) I can play a trinity game as a healer and hardly ever look at anything but the health bars. That is not going to be the case in GW2.
Granted, all of this is hypothetical because I haven't actually played the game, but I know that GW2 will have the support skills that I mentioned earlier.
I really think most of these polls generated on MMORPG.com are made worthless by the lack of good poll design.
There's an inherent flaw to creating a poll where one choice is the answer you're looking for, and the other option is designed to make any disagreeing position look silly.
Looks to me like the OP is a complete dumbarse who didn't do much research in the slightest. From what we know, Guild Wars will likely be more tactical than most point, click, press MMO's.
MMO's played: Ragnarok Online (For years), WoW (for a few weeks only), Guild Wars, Lineage 2, Eve, Allods, Shattered Galaxy, 9 Dragons, City of Heroes, City of Villains, Star Trek Online (Got someone ELSE to pay for it), Champions Online (Someone else paid), Dofus, Dragonica, LOTRO, DDO and more... A LOT more. I've played good AND bad. The bad didn't last long. :P
I find it funny that people can not understand how a game works without a dedicated healer.
I've played healers in many games, and raided as a Resto Druid and Holy Paladin in WoW, because 1. I like playing a supportive role in games and 2. The guild needed more healers. But in the 3+ years I played WoW I never felt challenged playing as a healer, even in PvP. Oh and lets be honest, who the hell plays games to watch 20+ health bars Yo-yo back and forth, Thats not fun at all...
Now people are bitching about a game which has decided to do away with the idea of a dedicated healer and instead leave it up to the players to heal themselves?! If you think about it, it forces the player to think more tactically if he needs to heal himself and manage his health cooldowns while also defending against or attacking enemies?
If you ask me, the 'Holy' Trinity of Tank, Damage & Healer is more zergy than anything GW2 has come up with, and if you die, you only have yourself to blame.
"The problem with quotes from the Internet is that it's almost impossible to validate their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln
Not to mention some healing skills will work in an AoE around the character.
If someone so desperately wants to play a healer, they could just run around using that... but I guarantee they will be obsolete.
MMO's played: Ragnarok Online (For years), WoW (for a few weeks only), Guild Wars, Lineage 2, Eve, Allods, Shattered Galaxy, 9 Dragons, City of Heroes, City of Villains, Star Trek Online (Got someone ELSE to pay for it), Champions Online (Someone else paid), Dofus, Dragonica, LOTRO, DDO and more... A LOT more. I've played good AND bad. The bad didn't last long. :P
If you ask me, the 'Holy' Trinity of Tank, Damage & Healer is more zergy than anything GW2 has come up with, and if you die, you only have yourself to blame.
best thing to happen imo....tired of ppl blaming the healer / tank for EVERYTHING
Well there may be ignorance in this thread, but not from my post. What many has to understand is that the scripts for these encounters are complimentary to two game design elements. One being that the script has to be in compliance with the overall AI design of the creatures in the world. That AI design has to be in compliance with combat mechanics. For one to fully say there is ignorance in this thread you have to understand game design first. There are many layers upon layers of game design that one has to see to understand it fully.
Do you know why the trinity was established? The trinity is not separate classes but 3 roles that are equal to have victory. MMORPG's were design to be multiplayer. At least within the trinity spectrum. Many people believe that GW2 will be full fledge zerg. That may be the case in some instance of encounters and may not. A zerg happens when there is no dedicated role to fullfill to compliment other roles. The only trinity role that is missing from GW2 is a dedicated healer. So in reality each person has a responsibility to heal themselves.
Essentially zerging and trinity fights are soley based on class design, combat mechanics, AI and the script to put the encounter together. If you have a trinity it's not necessarly that you will or wont zerg. Players base their strategy off what classes or build are accessible at the given time and the script that follows.
I think you can make an argument that the holy trinity was born out of ignorance of game mechanics by the designers themselves. You put a bunch of classes in a game, like Everquest, and you want them to do different things, so you have like
I think you may have misunderstood and didn't make it more clear. The trinity wasn't necessarly made out of ignorance, the trinity is a band of roles. I assumed that people know what a class really is. Here is a good definition.
What really is a class? A class is a deviation of an archetype, a different way of playing a role that fits a particular theme that is more than likely based off lore elements. The archetype is the function of the role. For an example, an archetype can be categorized by the following; Tank, melee DPS, caster DPS, support and healing. In order to set the foundation of the class, the archetype must be balanced first.
You look at things from trinity point of view. Archetype will be irelevant in gw2, what will be still relevant is role. Noone said u can complete dungeon in gw2 with 5 ppl just focusing on dps and those who expect this should wake up realy fast. Ppl will have to perform similiar roles as in trinity but they will have to switch between them during combat, due both tanking and healing seems to be quite weaker than in trinity = no dedicated tank and no dedicated healer.
Take WoW druids, what archetype they are ? Your attempt to put classes into archetypes complety fails here - even in quite strict trinity game. I remmember ppl in WoW to qq about druids - how they shoudnt be able to tank, heal and dps just by switching form. Quite rightly, in trinity game this is quite op, but if you decide to dump trinity archetypes for classes, it opens a lot variability. I bet that GW2 is dream game for all WoW druid players who wanted to play true hybrids, becouse in gw2 all proffesions are hybrids from trinity point of view.
And to all who think that dumping trinity in gw2 will lead to just zerging - hybrid gameplay is not zerging. And i can see to be actualy quite a chalenging for players who used to do just their 'rotation' in trinity mmos.
Again another misunderstanding. No, I didn't look at it from the trinity view, I looked at it from a class designer view point. I simply broke it down to what a class is at it's very core. This might make it easier for you. This is how a class is designed in layers.
Lore --> Role --> Archetype (melee, caster or ranged, function of the role) --> classification --> combat mechanics
If your interested in understanding how classes work and what a class really is, you can find my thread "Class balance is not a myth", so you can get more discernment about it as a whole.
There is the trinity in WoW's class design. However, one has to understand that most of wow's classes is a mega class with 2-3 separate classes into one. The only thing that is separating it is the talent system. There was still zerging in WoW even with the trinity. More so Pvp than Pve. Please understand that an archetype is apart of a class and is not separate. I think once you understand it you'd get a better idea of what a class is as a whole. The druid can tank and heal and dps but they have to choose what spec they want. It still happens in a trinity game and WoW is a trinity game, just a very bad executed trinity game.
Comments
The trinity is used up and beat to death, personally im tired of it. most people i know are tired of it. there is no so called tactics in the trinity the only person that " might " have any kind of tactic is the dude CCing stuff. but other than that its the same crap every time send in the tank and heal him...loads of fun.....
the trinity needs to go
bring back the old days!!!!
Some people just can't conceive of another way of playing these games other than Tanking, Healing, and Spanking.
Quick quiz, what are some other ways of controling an enemy other than having them concentrate on one ally.
Care to back this opinion up
?
I'm just curious as to how you came to it.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Don't worry, they'll figure it out once a game without taunt mechanics exists.
Gotta be enough CoX vets out there that still remember how to drive a controller.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Don't worry, they'll figure it out once a game without taunt mechanics exists.
Gotta be enough CoX vets out there that still remember how to drive a controller.
we already have many games like it. Hey even gw1 pve was like itPhilosophy of MMO Game Design
The ignorance in this thread is unreal. Trinity raiding these days is based around finding enough people who are not terrible at their role and don't stand in fires. Calling it Tactical vs Zerg is amusing, the only people who really have active control of a trinity encounter are the raid leader and possibly the best healer. GW2 system will attempt to put equal pressure on all group members to perform well and if done right should be much more entertaining than trinity.
Well there may be ignorance in this thread, but not from my post. What many has to understand is that the scripts for these encounters are complimentary to two game design elements. One being that the script has to be in compliance with the overall AI design of the creatures in the world. That AI design has to be in compliance with combat mechanics. For one to fully say there is ignorance in this thread you have to understand game design first. There are many layers upon layers of game design that one has to see to understand it fully.
Do you know why the trinity was established? The trinity is not separate classes but 3 roles that are equal to have victory. MMORPG's were design to be multiplayer. At least within the trinity spectrum. Many people believe that GW2 will be full fledge zerg. That may be the case in some instance of encounters and may not. A zerg happens when there is no dedicated role to fullfill to compliment other roles. The only trinity role that is missing from GW2 is a dedicated healer. So in reality each person has a responsibility to heal themselves.
Essentially zerging and trinity fights are soley based on class design, combat mechanics, AI and the script to put the encounter together. If you have a trinity it's not necessarly that you will or wont zerg. Players base their strategy off what classes or build are accessible at the given time and the script that follows.
What exactly is zerging that people are refering to?
My previous definition has been overwhelming the opposition with superior numbers. But it seems like here, anything without a Trinity setup is considered a zerg.
OP,
It might be worth looking into but I hate your coining of the term "tactical". I know what you mean but I think "precision" would be a better choice. Tactics, by its very definition, can take place in any spectrum of conflict. I don't agree with your conclusions based on your example but it may very well be that there are no raids because game mechanics won't really allow for it. I think you may be looking at a third variable situation here: ie: your two variables don't covary.
If you really think it's the case, I'd love to see some more examples because I think it's a really cool topic, and frankly, I wish more topics like this came up on this site.
Beez
I think you can make an argument that the holy trinity was born out of ignorance of game mechanics by the designers themselves. You put a bunch of classes in a game, like Everquest, and you want them to do different things, so you have like
Warrior: High armor, medium damage, no healing
Ranger: Medium armor, medium-high damage, light healing
Wizard: Low armor, high damage, no healing
Cleric: High armor, low damage, high healing
Shaman: Medium armor, medium damage, medium healing
so they all kind of balance one another.
At the earliest days of EQ, you could probably have a lot of different group compositions, especially with that 6th person. Maybe you have one tank but two healers, or two tanks and one healer, or medium armored tanks but two healers, etc. It kind of works itself out.
There really wasn't any specialization in the early days of EQ, gear had stats on it, but there wasn't anything like +Spellpower initially. So probably not a ton of power creep for a while.
The problem arises when you want to make content harder, because the easiest way to make content harder is to make the mob hit harder. EQ used this a lot. There were a TON of tank and spank fights. I'm trying to think back to at what point it went from "we should get a warrior" to "we need a warrior". I really can't, it makes me think it was so gradual we didn't even realize that it was happening.
From there it's pretty much a viscious cycle. Tanks stack more and more defensive stuff. Pretty soon DPS aren't tanking anything and they can focus solely on dps. Tanks need more and more additional threat mechanics to be able to hold aggro. Mobs become balanced around the maximum defense and dps that the previous tier's gear can provide. And so on until you've got a situation where mobs are counterintuitively attacking the only 1-2 people in the 25 person raid that they couldn't kill in two seconds.
WoW, even though it is a lot about gear, still does add boss mechanic on top of boss mechanic to add difficulty as well. I wonder if the early game designers had focused more on adding complexity than adding mob damage and hps, maybe we wouldn't see such strict Holy Trinity roles today.
GW2 isn't a zerg, and it does have roles, but they're trying to break that vicious cycle. Pure power in healing isn't there, you can only support what others are doing for themselves. You can't trade hits with mobs, you've got to dodge and use your cooldowns to mitigate damage, meaning you can't tank forever. Nobody can do everything at once, you've got to work together and plan a flexible strategy ahead of time and build your limited skillbars accordingly.
The other huge thing I think is that any player can rez another anytime in GW2, it just takes longer each time. In a game like WoW where that isn't an option, players seethe at the thought of randomness in the encounter. You can't program a boss that he'll spike and kill the tank in 5% of attempts and there's nothing you can do about it (When M'uru was overtuned, players complained about 1% inherent spell resist being enough to wipe the raid if RNG screwed you at a critical moment). In GW2, you could have a boss just straight up deathtouch random people. It can put you in situations that would be automatic wipes in other games. In GW2, you can fight your way out of the hole if you can adjust your tactics on the fly.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
LOL. Then why does any trinity MMO have more than 3 classes? I mean, all you need is a healer class, a tank class, and a dps class right? Any more is just pointless and redundant.
Because different classes do their roles a little differently. A thief/rogue/assassin architype doesn't play the same as a ranger/hunter/ranged damage dealer. The same can be said with casters and warriors. I mean sure a game can be as limited as you state, but I don't suspect many will want to play it and if they do, not for long. People like options and choices. It's pretty simple really.
I don't think GW2 will be a zergfest in the OP's way of describing it. I think groups can try it that way but they may find out the mobs zerg back and they may not like it
And I couldn't add to your pol count because the question was weighted and not accurate to what I think.
RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.
I think you may have misunderstood and didn't make it more clear. The trinity wasn't necessarly made out of ignorance, the trinity is a band of roles. I assumed that people know what a class really is. Here is a good definition.
What really is a class? A class is a deviation of an archetype, a different way of playing a role that fits a particular theme that is more than likely based off lore elements. The archetype is the function of the role. For an example, an archetype can be categorized by the following; Tank, melee DPS, caster DPS, support and healing. In order to set the foundation of the class, the archetype must be balanced first.
You look at things from trinity point of view. Archetype will be irelevant in gw2, what will be still relevant is role. Noone said u can complete dungeon in gw2 with 5 ppl just focusing on dps and those who expect this should wake up realy fast. Ppl will have to perform similiar roles as in trinity but they will have to switch between them during combat, due both tanking and healing seems to be quite weaker than in trinity = no dedicated tank and no dedicated healer.
But you will still need ppl to do similiar tasks as in those roles . Blocking way to mobs, evading, blocking attacks is still tanking . Increasing hp regen and group heals is still healing, you still have there all tasks performed by trinity. What changes is that no class can just focus on single role and perform it for group in dungeon with enough power that rest of group doesnt have to bother with it.
Anet decision to weaken healing and tanking role is imo quite wise, otherwise you would just have another system similiar to Rift and some proffesion would be forced to play pure healers and pure tanks for dungeons in gw2.
Take WoW druids, what archetype they are ? Your attempt to put classes into archetypes complety fails here - even in quite strict trinity game. I remmember ppl in WoW to qq about druids - how they shoudnt be able to tank, heal and dps just by switching form. Quite rightly, in trinity game this is quite op, but if you decide to dump trinity archetypes for classes, it opens a lot variability. I bet that GW2 is dream game for all WoW druid players who wanted to play true hybrids, becouse in gw2 all proffesions are hybrids from trinity point of view.
And to all who think that dumping trinity in gw2 will lead to just zerging - hybrid gameplay is not zerging. And i can see to be actualy quite a chalenging for players who used to do just their 'rotation' in trinity mmos.
You know, I actually think that GW2's model has the potential to be more tactical than trinity models.
In trinity models, you know exactly what you will be doing before you even join the group most of the time. If you are a healer, you will be healing. If you are a tank, you will be tanking. if you are DPS...you get the idea.
I really don't see the tactics here. Once you learn the "tactic" of tank and spank once, you've got it for the rest of the game. It's pretty simple. You're basically locked into doing one specific tactic forever by the game system.
GW2's system on the other hand does not lock you into anything. You are provided with many abilities that support your team-mates like shields, supply drops, or walls that give buffs to melee and projectiles and harm enemies. There are no easy buffs like traditional targeted buffs that you just apply and forget about, or click F2 and then cast.
You're really going to have a high situational awareness at all times to succeed (provided they make it hard enough!) I can play a trinity game as a healer and hardly ever look at anything but the health bars. That is not going to be the case in GW2.
Granted, all of this is hypothetical because I haven't actually played the game, but I know that GW2 will have the support skills that I mentioned earlier.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
I really think most of these polls generated on MMORPG.com are made worthless by the lack of good poll design.
There's an inherent flaw to creating a poll where one choice is the answer you're looking for, and the other option is designed to make any disagreeing position look silly.
Looks to me like the OP is a complete dumbarse who didn't do much research in the slightest. From what we know, Guild Wars will likely be more tactical than most point, click, press MMO's.
MMO's played: Ragnarok Online (For years), WoW (for a few weeks only), Guild Wars, Lineage 2, Eve, Allods, Shattered Galaxy, 9 Dragons, City of Heroes, City of Villains, Star Trek Online (Got someone ELSE to pay for it), Champions Online (Someone else paid), Dofus, Dragonica, LOTRO, DDO and more... A LOT more. I've played good AND bad. The bad didn't last long. :P
Fail thread is fail.
I find it funny that people can not understand how a game works without a dedicated healer.
I've played healers in many games, and raided as a Resto Druid and Holy Paladin in WoW, because 1. I like playing a supportive role in games and 2. The guild needed more healers. But in the 3+ years I played WoW I never felt challenged playing as a healer, even in PvP. Oh and lets be honest, who the hell plays games to watch 20+ health bars Yo-yo back and forth, Thats not fun at all...
Now people are bitching about a game which has decided to do away with the idea of a dedicated healer and instead leave it up to the players to heal themselves?! If you think about it, it forces the player to think more tactically if he needs to heal himself and manage his health cooldowns while also defending against or attacking enemies?
If you ask me, the 'Holy' Trinity of Tank, Damage & Healer is more zergy than anything GW2 has come up with, and if you die, you only have yourself to blame.
"The problem with quotes from the Internet is that it's almost impossible to validate their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln
Not to mention some healing skills will work in an AoE around the character.
If someone so desperately wants to play a healer, they could just run around using that... but I guarantee they will be obsolete.
MMO's played: Ragnarok Online (For years), WoW (for a few weeks only), Guild Wars, Lineage 2, Eve, Allods, Shattered Galaxy, 9 Dragons, City of Heroes, City of Villains, Star Trek Online (Got someone ELSE to pay for it), Champions Online (Someone else paid), Dofus, Dragonica, LOTRO, DDO and more... A LOT more. I've played good AND bad. The bad didn't last long. :P
best thing to happen imo....tired of ppl blaming the healer / tank for EVERYTHING
Again another misunderstanding. No, I didn't look at it from the trinity view, I looked at it from a class designer view point. I simply broke it down to what a class is at it's very core. This might make it easier for you. This is how a class is designed in layers.
Lore --> Role --> Archetype (melee, caster or ranged, function of the role) --> classification --> combat mechanics
If your interested in understanding how classes work and what a class really is, you can find my thread "Class balance is not a myth", so you can get more discernment about it as a whole.
There is the trinity in WoW's class design. However, one has to understand that most of wow's classes is a mega class with 2-3 separate classes into one. The only thing that is separating it is the talent system. There was still zerging in WoW even with the trinity. More so Pvp than Pve. Please understand that an archetype is apart of a class and is not separate. I think once you understand it you'd get a better idea of what a class is as a whole. The druid can tank and heal and dps but they have to choose what spec they want. It still happens in a trinity game and WoW is a trinity game, just a very bad executed trinity game.