The death of rpg in mmorpgs is very clearly defined by the widely accepted argument that in a cash shop vanity items are ok to sell, anything that impacts combat or char progression is not.
Right there is the generally accepted view that rpg is meaningless and hack n slash is all.
The death of rpg in mmorpgs is very clearly defined by the widely accepted argument that in a cash shop vanity items are ok to sell, anything that impacts combat or char progression is not.
Right there is the generally accepted view that rpg is meaningless and hack n slash is all.
The death of rpg in mmorpgs is very clearly defined by the widely accepted argument that in a cash shop vanity items are ok to sell, anything that impacts combat or char progression is not.
Right there is the generally accepted view that rpg is meaningless and hack n slash is all.
Elaborate.
Like I said, when ever a game has a cash shop the generally accepted view is that vanity items are ok to sell. Why are they ok to sell? Because they are not important or don't count. But clearly if the rpg portion of mmorpgs counted for anything then how you present your character wouldn't be seen as something that can be dismissed. But if a game starts putting weapons, armor, stat increases, buffs, etc... on the market people start screaming and threatening to quit.
For most players the modern mmorpg is nothing more than a really big and complicated console-esque deathmatch map.
The death of rpg in mmorpgs is very clearly defined by the widely accepted argument that in a cash shop vanity items are ok to sell, anything that impacts combat or char progression is not.
Right there is the generally accepted view that rpg is meaningless and hack n slash is all.
Elaborate.
Stats that affect combat used to be only one small portion of what mattered in RPGs, MMO or not. So called vanity, cosmetic, crafting, and/or convenience items and/or progression use to be equally, and sometimes moreso, important compared to combat.
As such, saying that RMT is okay so long as it doesn't effect combat or progression (combat related), means that all the other aspects of an RPG are beign neglected. In other words, it's not about creating a immersive virtual RPG world... it's all about making sure the nonstop and meaningless hack 'n' slash gameplay is the only thing that matters.
all the other aspects of an RPG are beign neglected. In other words, it's not about creating a immersive virtual RPG world... it's all about making sure the nonstop and meaningless hack 'n' slash gameplay is the only thing that matters.
That's Everquest's fault for being a linear grind fest of a level/gear treadmill.
You know what game didn't have gear or gear grinds? Ultima Online.
Too bad the lesser game was more popular and everyone emulated it, which of course led to WoW which again led to everything we see now.
Everything that is wrong with the MMO genre is Everquest's fault for popularizing the 3D online Diku Mud game play.
The only true MMO to ever exist died a long, long time ago.
Even SWG(old)/FFXI/EvE are nothing more then huge linear grind fests to max level max stats max skills etc.
They are not sandboxes, they simply have an extreme lack of content - forcing you to grind repetitive BS.
UO was the only true sandbox... only real "sandbox" to come out in recent times is Minecraft, and it's not even a MMO...
The death of rpg in mmorpgs is very clearly defined by the widely accepted argument that in a cash shop vanity items are ok to sell, anything that impacts combat or char progression is not.
Right there is the generally accepted view that rpg is meaningless and hack n slash is all.
Elaborate.
Like I said, when ever a game has a cash shop the generally accepted view is that vanity items are ok to sell. Why are they ok to sell? Because they are not important or don't count. But clearly if the rpg portion of mmorpgs counted for anything then how you present your character wouldn't be seen as something that can be dismissed. But if a game starts putting weapons, armor, stat increases, buffs, etc... on the market people start screaming and threatening to quit.
For most players the modern mmorpg is nothing more than a really big and complicated console-esque deathmatch map.
I'm not exactly sure I know how to respond to this... I really feel like you're asking too much out of the developers.
Many games already include a ton of options for different clothes and armor inside the games that one can use to roleplay. It's not like they said: "Alright, we'll make every single piece the armor in the game look terrible and only for stats so we can scam these role-players who want to look fancy."
Taking Guild Wars 2 for example, they have a seperate slot for town clothes inside the game, town clothes you can easily obtain inside the game. Not only that, they have a palette of over 400 unique armor dyes, hues, etc and each piece of armor or clothes, generally, have 3 different channels for which you can dye them. And most of the dyes can be unlocked inside the game. And, like a lot of other games, they have "transmutation stones" which can alloy you to swap the appearance of one set of gear for another and retain the stats.
Yes, they're combat oriented , but not all of them have just tossed away their roleplaying playerbase. It's simply that they need to generate revenue somehow outside of box costs, and including extra vanity items doesn't break the game. No player gets an unfair advantage over you because they can look like a pirate's wench. Especially when there's enough items in the game for you to fulfill your ninja fantasy. But giving players the ability to have complete advantage over other players in the game is certainly gamebreaking, and can entirely ruin the experience.
I'm not sure what exactly you want out of these games that this isn't enough.
TL:DR, The developers need to make money. Including stronger armor is game breaking. Including different armor isn't, especially when there's already a large variety available in the games.
Edit: I think there's a quote from Kristen Perry somewhere that will explain that GW2 won't make the armors look garbage so you're incentivized to buy the one's in the cash shop.
"I fully believed that ArenaNet would be the company that would break the shackles other companies slap on us, stopping us from having characters that look the way we want. They are a company that isn’t afraid to let concept artists try new methods and styles, rather than standing still or going backwards. This allows the game to look great in every aspect, including our characters, which is important to letting us stay connected to the game. With all these features for making our characters looking great, it’s just another reason to be excited about Guild Wars 2."
Originally posted by BadSpock Originally posted by Ceridith
all the other aspects of an RPG are beign neglected. In other words, it's not about creating a immersive virtual RPG world... it's all about making sure the nonstop and meaningless hack 'n' slash gameplay is the only thing that matters.
That's Everquest's fault for being a linear grind fest of a level/gear treadmill. You know what game didn't have gear or gear grinds? Ultima Online. Too bad the lesser game was more popular and everyone emulated it, which of course led to WoW which again led to everything we see now. Everything that is wrong with the MMO genre is Everquest's fault for popularizing the 3D online Diku Mud game play. The only true MMO to ever exist died a long, long time ago. Even SWG(old)/FFXI/EvE are nothing more then huge linear grind fests to max level max stats max skills etc. They are not sandboxes, they simply have an extreme lack of content - forcing you to grind repetitive BS. UO was the only true sandbox... only real "sandbox" to come out in recent times is Minecraft, and it's not even a MMO...
I have a hard time arguing against any game where the players could mob and then kill the guy behind the game, while in the game.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I agree. And no, I don't think GW2 or SWOR will save our nostalgia-laced preferences from the decrepit dominion of “good old days” oblivion. RPGers are so exploited by companies and their promises that they’re excited about leftovers. I can hear hundreds of gracious fans shouting “They let us interact with a chair!” and hardly realizing the minimal attempt at appeasement. But rejoice! It’s not just MMOs. It’s pretty much everything.
The point of a company is to make a profit, yes, but that definition of “profit” is relative in regards to mission statements. Very few say: I want to make billions of dollars so I can buy thousands of kitties and make youtube videos. Instead, they say: It is our purpose to bring the very best product, with new innovative ideas, et cetera.” But in reality they want kitties. You see, there didn’t used to be enormous expectations of MMOs. Co. made quality games because they could turn a profit 1st, but also make a quality product that people would come back to day after day. Build a reputation and all. Because of WoW’s mainstream success, companies see dollar signs and therefore (like everything from automobiles to peace signs) they want to exploit it over and over until we have absolute market saturation. Then, after the 3D, errr, MMORPG market is gone, they will move on to something else. So while it’s still making a profit, they will stay at it.
Back to the OP: RP doesn’t make very much money. In 2004, that would be alright for a mmo. Making enough to cover the bills and provide new content would be deemed a success. People would be happy. But Blizz (not blizzards fault, they just timed it right) hit the lottery and now everyone wants to replicate it instead of just making games. The fan base has moved from RPG’s (heavy story with action: think early Square games not ME or FF now) to defining RPG as a hack and slash. It has been the convention now for some time. Now everyone expects it and thinks they want it. But they don’t. EXP: Have you ever eaten fast food, let’s say- McDonalds- for months because you are too busy to cook? And then suddenly you stop eating it completely. The point is, when you go back after months of abstaining on moral grounds and have a burger from McD’s- it is dreadful. Not what you remember. As a culture, we’re hooked on the new MMO because we’re too busy to realize we’re not busy at all. If we spend 6 hours grinding for that last Swatch we could easily be interacting with the game through rp or story. I think it’s not just the fault of the greedy corporations- it’s ours. We demand less because we’re hooked. We demand leftovers. For one, storytelling in MMO’s and immersion needs to evolve. MUD's are no longer cool. But neither is what we have now. We need to believe in the worlds we log on to and invest hours of our lives. Because, unless you enjoy running like a mouse on a wheel for digital gear, you’ll get bored with every game that comes out until they create something that resonates. Sorry for long post.
The sad thing though is that this isn't just happening to mmoRPG's, it's also happening to other genre's as well. Dumbing down content to cater to the "young and fast" crowd that only has time enough for itself. This has been happening for a while, sometimes, though, some game developer does try to slow things down, but they either don't sell enough copies, or the sequel gets dumbed down so that copies can sell. This isn't a problem with the developer, but with the publisher.
It's the ability to massivley market a single game to billions of people simultaneously that is ruining video games. Publisher's just aren't happy with dedicated hardcore gamers, they want the world, they want the games that developer's create to be mass marketable and playable by everyone, or the money goes away and the dev team doesn't get the funding they need for their project. Sadly, anyone who wants to play an mmoRPG is a niche gamer, and publishers don't want niche anymore, they want mainstream.
Originally posted by zeven The sad thing though is that this isn't just happening to mmoRPG's, it's also happening to other genre's as well. Dumbing down content to cater to the "young and fast" crowd that only has time enough for itself. This has been happening for a while, sometimes, though, some game developer does try to slow things down, but they either don't sell enough copies, or the sequel gets dumbed down so that copies can sell. This isn't a problem with the developer, but with the publisher.It's the ability to massivley market a single game to billions of people simultaneously that is ruining video games. Publisher's just aren't happy with dedicated hardcore gamers, they want the world, they want the games that developer's create to be mass marketable and playable by everyone, or the money goes away and the dev team doesn't get the funding they need for their project. Sadly, anyone who wants to play an mmoRPG is a niche gamer, and publishers don't want niche anymore, they want mainstream.
It takes a lot of time and resources to develop a decent game. The money and resources it takes to develop a game, the more money it has to make. Nobody wants to lose money on 4 years worth of work.
MMORPG are at the extreme end of money and resources required to develop a game. Which means they are probably going to be at the extreme end of 'main stream'. There's a lot of games in the genre though...so it's pushing other developers to branch out a bit and looks for those games that aren't necessarily main stream.
More successful games, even the mainstream variety is a good thing. Even if they are games you won't play, they will push the next game towards something a bit different, and maybe something you'll play.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
It takes a lot of time and resources to develop a decent game. The money and resources it takes to develop a game, the more money it has to make. Nobody wants to lose money on 4 years worth of work.
MMORPG are at the extreme end of money and resources required to develop a game. Which means they are probably going to be at the extreme end of 'main stream'. There's a lot of games in the genre though...so it's pushing other developers to branch out a bit and looks for those games that aren't necessarily main stream.
More successful games, even the mainstream variety is a good thing. Even if they are games you won't play, they will push the next game towards something a bit different, and maybe something you'll play.
Well, yes and no. It takes a lot of resources to make the multi-media tour de force that seemingly rules the day in these here waters.
Does it need to be so? I say no. Glitz and glamour are NOT what makes a good game. Good gameplay is what makes a good game.
What the hell does voice acting have to do with good gameplay? Not an effing thing.
Yes, yes, I know... no one has TIME to read.
And yet, voice acting is, at least in part, exactly why Oblivion fell down in front of Morrowind in my humble opinion and that of many others. We got a much lesser world chock full of voice acting and glitzy glamour.
Don't get me wrong. There absolutely should be a share of the market devoted to the type of game like Mass Effect that makes you feel like you are in a movie. Did I like Mass Effect? Yes. But certainly not for depth of gameplay! It was a pretty shallow shooter, actually, with a voice acted (read movie) script that was mostly ok.
It's getting to the point that soon we will no longer be talking about games as much, if at all. Soon we will have no real games at least in the world of MMOs. They'll all be more or less interactive movies. Modern couch potatoes rejoice!
Probably why I've mostly gone back to board wargames. I don't expect that such companies who barely understand what a game even IS anymore are going to be offering much along those lines any time soon. Or maybe ever again.
Star Control 2 was a FANTASTIC game! Still is. It was made by two guys and was very low budget. But it had heart and it had soul!
The more popular, dumbed down game (EQ) was making more money and was more "successful" then the better, more complex and intersting game (UO) so guess what happens?
We see WoW eventually, but before that we see "sandbox" games with huge leveling /skill / gear grinds like EvE/FFXI/SWG.
Even the OP and most of you would never play a true sandbox MMO RPG because there would be no loot to acquire, no levels to raise, no skills to sharpen, simply player interaction with a living, breathing NPC community in a vast, open world.
No end game. No progression. No dice rolls or Diku MUD D&D stats to make people feel better about themselves.
Don't get me wrong. There absolutely should be a share of the market devoted to the type of game like Mass Effect that makes you feel like you are in a movie. Did I like Mass Effect? Yes. But certainly not for depth of gameplay! It was a pretty shallow shooter, actually, with a voice acted (read movie) script that was mostly ok.
One reason I'm not much of a fan of those types of games. The interactive movie called Mass Effect 1 was fairly interesting for a time. But not really a very good game in my opinion. You take the glitz out of Mass Effect and it would likely suck eggs.
The death of rpg in mmorpgs is very clearly defined by the widely accepted argument that in a cash shop vanity items are ok to sell, anything that impacts combat or char progression is not.
Right there is the generally accepted view that rpg is meaningless and hack n slash is all.
Elaborate.
Like I said, when ever a game has a cash shop the generally accepted view is that vanity items are ok to sell. Why are they ok to sell? Because they are not important or don't count. But clearly if the rpg portion of mmorpgs counted for anything then how you present your character wouldn't be seen as something that can be dismissed. But if a game starts putting weapons, armor, stat increases, buffs, etc... on the market people start screaming and threatening to quit.
For most players the modern mmorpg is nothing more than a really big and complicated console-esque deathmatch map.
I'm not exactly sure I know how to respond to this... I really feel like you're asking too much out of the developers.
Many games already include a ton of options for different clothes and armor inside the games that one can use to roleplay. It's not like they said: "Alright, we'll make every single piece the armor in the game look terrible and only for stats so we can scam these role-players who want to look fancy."
Taking Guild Wars 2 for example, they have a seperate slot for town clothes inside the game, town clothes you can easily obtain inside the game. Not only that, they have a palette of over 400 unique armor dyes, hues, etc and each piece of armor or clothes, generally, have 3 different channels for which you can dye them. And most of the dyes can be unlocked inside the game. And, like a lot of other games, they have "transmutation stones" which can alloy you to swap the appearance of one set of gear for another and retain the stats.
Yes, they're combat oriented , but not all of them have just tossed away their roleplaying playerbase. It's simply that they need to generate revenue somehow outside of box costs, and including extra vanity items doesn't break the game. No player gets an unfair advantage over you because they can look like a pirate's wench. Especially when there's enough items in the game for you to fulfill your ninja fantasy. But giving players the ability to have complete advantage over other players in the game is certainly gamebreaking, and can entirely ruin the experience.
I'm not sure what exactly you want out of these games that this isn't enough.
TL:DR, The developers need to make money. Including stronger armor is game breaking. Including different armor isn't, especially when there's already a large variety available in the games.
Edit: I think there's a quote from Kristen Perry somewhere that will explain that GW2 won't make the armors look garbage so you're incentivized to buy the one's in the cash shop.
"I fully believed that ArenaNet would be the company that would break the shackles other companies slap on us, stopping us from having characters that look the way we want. They are a company that isn’t afraid to let concept artists try new methods and styles, rather than standing still or going backwards. This allows the game to look great in every aspect, including our characters, which is important to letting us stay connected to the game. With all these features for making our characters looking great, it’s just another reason to be excited about Guild Wars 2."
I wasn't referring to what is in the game, I was referring the commonly accepted mindset that dismisses the importance of rpg aspects of the game when people say its ok to sell vanity items but not combat related items.
One reason I'm not much of a fan of those types of games. The interactive movie called Mass Effect 1 was fairly interesting for a time. But not really a very good game in my opinion. You take the glitz out of Mass Effect and it would likely suck eggs.
I think the ME series had great story, great characters, and great, solid game play - very few if any flaws.
The biggest thing they did right was create a new and interesting Sci-Fi world and man did they ever fill out that world with all the lore/history from the codex and all the side content/missions etc.
After 3 RPG's in this universe, I like many others am going to be begging for more games set in the ME universe, RPG or not.
It's incredibly difficult to create a new Sci-Fi or Fantasy intellectual property and actually have it be successful.
The ME universe really drew me in where as the Dragon Age did not.
No RPG in my MMORPG? Well, to me it's all about being immersed in the world.
UO did that for me. Even WoW did that for me. Rift is growing on me... but still is pretty generic/unintersting fantasy.
SWG did NOT do it for me, I never knew anything about the EQ world because I hated the game play so much.
RPG, story, immersion to me is all about whether or not you can or cannot be sucked into the game world.
It's a very personal thing but in the end it comes down to how much effort the devs put into making you really feel like you really are in another world/universe.
You don't have to use thee and thou and all that to role play or speek in character or anything like that... if anything it can feel like you are forcing the RP into it.
It's all about immersion.
Wanting to see what's in that cave or at the top of that mountain and NOT because you know/wish loot is in there for you.
Wanting to kill your enemies not to get loot but because you legitimately dislike/hate everything about them.
The death of rpg in mmorpgs is very clearly defined by the widely accepted argument that in a cash shop vanity items are ok to sell, anything that impacts combat or char progression is not.
Right there is the generally accepted view that rpg is meaningless and hack n slash is all.
Elaborate.
Like I said, when ever a game has a cash shop the generally accepted view is that vanity items are ok to sell. Why are they ok to sell? Because they are not important or don't count. But clearly if the rpg portion of mmorpgs counted for anything then how you present your character wouldn't be seen as something that can be dismissed. But if a game starts putting weapons, armor, stat increases, buffs, etc... on the market people start screaming and threatening to quit.
For most players the modern mmorpg is nothing more than a really big and complicated console-esque deathmatch map.
I'm not exactly sure I know how to respond to this... I really feel like you're asking too much out of the developers.
Many games already include a ton of options for different clothes and armor inside the games that one can use to roleplay. It's not like they said: "Alright, we'll make every single piece the armor in the game look terrible and only for stats so we can scam these role-players who want to look fancy."
Taking Guild Wars 2 for example, they have a seperate slot for town clothes inside the game, town clothes you can easily obtain inside the game. Not only that, they have a palette of over 400 unique armor dyes, hues, etc and each piece of armor or clothes, generally, have 3 different channels for which you can dye them. And most of the dyes can be unlocked inside the game. And, like a lot of other games, they have "transmutation stones" which can alloy you to swap the appearance of one set of gear for another and retain the stats.
Yes, they're combat oriented , but not all of them have just tossed away their roleplaying playerbase. It's simply that they need to generate revenue somehow outside of box costs, and including extra vanity items doesn't break the game. No player gets an unfair advantage over you because they can look like a pirate's wench. Especially when there's enough items in the game for you to fulfill your ninja fantasy. But giving players the ability to have complete advantage over other players in the game is certainly gamebreaking, and can entirely ruin the experience.
I'm not sure what exactly you want out of these games that this isn't enough.
TL:DR, The developers need to make money. Including stronger armor is game breaking. Including different armor isn't, especially when there's already a large variety available in the games.
Edit: I think there's a quote from Kristen Perry somewhere that will explain that GW2 won't make the armors look garbage so you're incentivized to buy the one's in the cash shop.
"I fully believed that ArenaNet would be the company that would break the shackles other companies slap on us, stopping us from having characters that look the way we want. They are a company that isn’t afraid to let concept artists try new methods and styles, rather than standing still or going backwards. This allows the game to look great in every aspect, including our characters, which is important to letting us stay connected to the game. With all these features for making our characters looking great, it’s just another reason to be excited about Guild Wars 2."
I wasn't referring to what is in the game, I was referring the commonly accepted mindset that dismisses the importance of rpg aspects of the game when people say its ok to sell vanity items but not combat related items.
I still don't understand how that dismisses the importance of the RPG aspect. It may be saying "Combat is more important" because one's seen as gamebreaking, and the other generally isn't but the attention to the RPG aspect of the game is still shown heavily, and Arena Net still aspires to put the RPG back into MMORPG.
I'm just gonna say this, best fucking post EVER! I totally agree with this guy and been saying all this for a while now, kodos to you Coyote for having the balls to post this in the light of the community, good job!
Great post OP , the consolation is we have know MMORPGs. Most of the crowd these days just wants insta win and thats not what these game were about. The genre as was died a long time ago and the gameplay dissapeared.
________________________________________________________ Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
The death of rpg in mmorpgs is very clearly defined by the widely accepted argument that in a cash shop vanity items are ok to sell, anything that impacts combat or char progression is not.
Right there is the generally accepted view that rpg is meaningless and hack n slash is all.
Elaborate.
Like I said, when ever a game has a cash shop the generally accepted view is that vanity items are ok to sell. Why are they ok to sell? Because they are not important or don't count. But clearly if the rpg portion of mmorpgs counted for anything then how you present your character wouldn't be seen as something that can be dismissed. But if a game starts putting weapons, armor, stat increases, buffs, etc... on the market people start screaming and threatening to quit.
For most players the modern mmorpg is nothing more than a really big and complicated console-esque deathmatch map.
I'm not exactly sure I know how to respond to this... I really feel like you're asking too much out of the developers.
Many games already include a ton of options for different clothes and armor inside the games that one can use to roleplay. It's not like they said: "Alright, we'll make every single piece the armor in the game look terrible and only for stats so we can scam these role-players who want to look fancy."
Taking Guild Wars 2 for example, they have a seperate slot for town clothes inside the game, town clothes you can easily obtain inside the game. Not only that, they have a palette of over 400 unique armor dyes, hues, etc and each piece of armor or clothes, generally, have 3 different channels for which you can dye them. And most of the dyes can be unlocked inside the game. And, like a lot of other games, they have "transmutation stones" which can alloy you to swap the appearance of one set of gear for another and retain the stats.
Yes, they're combat oriented , but not all of them have just tossed away their roleplaying playerbase. It's simply that they need to generate revenue somehow outside of box costs, and including extra vanity items doesn't break the game. No player gets an unfair advantage over you because they can look like a pirate's wench. Especially when there's enough items in the game for you to fulfill your ninja fantasy. But giving players the ability to have complete advantage over other players in the game is certainly gamebreaking, and can entirely ruin the experience.
I'm not sure what exactly you want out of these games that this isn't enough.
TL:DR, The developers need to make money. Including stronger armor is game breaking. Including different armor isn't, especially when there's already a large variety available in the games.
Edit: I think there's a quote from Kristen Perry somewhere that will explain that GW2 won't make the armors look garbage so you're incentivized to buy the one's in the cash shop.
"I fully believed that ArenaNet would be the company that would break the shackles other companies slap on us, stopping us from having characters that look the way we want. They are a company that isn’t afraid to let concept artists try new methods and styles, rather than standing still or going backwards. This allows the game to look great in every aspect, including our characters, which is important to letting us stay connected to the game. With all these features for making our characters looking great, it’s just another reason to be excited about Guild Wars 2."
I wasn't referring to what is in the game, I was referring the commonly accepted mindset that dismisses the importance of rpg aspects of the game when people say its ok to sell vanity items but not combat related items.
I still don't understand how that dismisses the importance of the RPG aspect. It may be saying "Combat is more important" because one's seen as gamebreaking, and the other generally isn't but the attention to the RPG aspect of the game is still shown heavily, and Arena Net still aspires to put the RPG back into MMORPG.
You keep acknowledging that people don't see the rpg aspect as important, what is it you don't understand?
And regardless of what Arenanet aspires to do it doesn't count for anything until its done. Nothing counts in MMO's until it launches.
I still don't understand how that dismisses the importance of the RPG aspect. It may be saying "Combat is more important" because one's seen as gamebreaking, and the other generally isn't but the attention to the RPG aspect of the game is still shown heavily, and Arena Net still aspires to put the RPG back into MMORPG.
How about this..let GW2 release and let us see? it is too soon to talk about RPG aspect of GW2.
Problem is, many of today's gamers missed the first generation of mmoRPG's in their glory days, so they aren't going to relate to the points in this OP.
They truely don't know what fun they missed and I think if a developer took a chance and created a new AAA game using more of the "discarded" features from those earlier titles I think they'd find they had a pretty successful game on their hands.
No, it might never come close to WOW, but not every title has to swing for the fence.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Coyote, great article. I love your pictures and humor.
I have to say, though, telling people that MMORPG aren't for them, because they enjoy WoW type games is a little foolish. Those are basically the only games out there. You article was great until you erroneously pointed out that MMORPGs are not for the majority of people actually playing MMOs.
One would think after 11 years some company would have tried to clone EQ, AC or DAoC. Truly depressing.
I think that part of the problem is that the gaming industry has lost sight of where RPG's came from and are continuing to make them as they always have because they are afraid to try a new sort of mmoRPG that breaks every single rule, spoken or otherwise. MMORPG's were spawned when people wanted to play RPG's online together, they came after the single player RPG, which came after tabletop games.
Tabletop RPG's had to be restrictive, not because no one didn't want play an incredibly huge sandbox type game on their table, but because it was a table, and tables aren't really big enough to play the world on.
Anyway, as computers became more powerful that kind of gameplay was translated into a game that you could play on your computer (Rogue), then came consoles, games like Final Fantasy, and the rest is history.
The problem though, is that no one wants to reinvent the wheel, but that's all we sit here in these forums and talk about, how devs should reinvent the rpg.
The only way to get rid of gear progression is to eliminate stats on items, instead progression would come from research and adventure. Every ability would come Zelda style, I.E. you if you want to throw fireballs around, you would have to adventure through the world until you found a npc fireball trainer, who you would then have to convince to train you, and THEN you could cast a fireball. what you are asking is for devs to use a more literal translation of RPG, instead of giving us toons with stats, restrictring what we can and can't do with classes, further restricting what gear we can wear, giving us complex spell trees with spells we have to rotate through, and populating the world with pathetic looking monsters, you want to start with a stick and work your up to fireballs after dying a dozen times, instead of being a mildly annoying waste of time, you want death to be part of the game mechanics, you want a huge world in which you can do whatever the hell you want and yet, I really doubt that there is a single publisher (except, maybe, possibly, perhaps, but not really, a couple), who would take a risk doing something so awfully risky.
There is more to building a game than just time, effort, and funding, there is experimentation as well. It's just too bad that you can't experiment with thirty different things in one game, because if you did, you wouldn't be able to tell what was working well from what was completely broken, everything would be kind of mashed together into some-thing, and I know that I would rather play WoW, or Final Fantasy, or Rift, or Fire Emblem, or anything else really, rather than some-thing, because there are lot's of things in the world, and you can't really define all those things into something playable unless you weed out the things that just don't work, first. And, what works better than anything else in the world, in your head, may not work at all in reality.
I guess the gist of what I'm trying to say is that you want the genre to go from A to B to C to Z, but you can't realistically expect anyone to make such a huge jump all at once, you have to move forwards gradually, from C to D to E, etc, before getting to Z, otherwise you'll be stuck with something that is really cool, but, only, kinda, sorta, maybe, not really.
The death of rpg in mmorpgs is very clearly defined by the widely accepted argument that in a cash shop vanity items are ok to sell, anything that impacts combat or char progression is not.
Right there is the generally accepted view that rpg is meaningless and hack n slash is all.
*Snip*
You keep acknowledging that people don't see the rpg aspect as important, what is it you don't understand?
And regardless of what Arenanet aspires to do it doesn't count for anything until its done. Nothing counts in MMO's until it launches.
I never acknowledged that people think the RPG aspect isn't important, just that the combat in a game, among the majority of people who play them, takes precedence.
What I don't understand is how you can jump to such an extreme conclusion as that. Even World of Warcraft, the MMO which is being specifically referred to as dumbing down the "RPG" aspect of MMORPGs, has very healthy RP servers and lots of items for customization.
What is the specific game you're referring to that's use of vanity items in a cash shop completely dilutes all RPG qualities, because if you can't give me specific observations, then this is just a baseless complaint. Personally, I'm a huge fan of RPG's and I don't see, at all, vanity items in a cash shop deeming RP completely unimportant. With you, it sounds like there's no middle ground. Either the RPG is the only important aspect, or it is completely unimportant in these games.
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The death of rpg in mmorpgs is very clearly defined by the widely accepted argument that in a cash shop vanity items are ok to sell, anything that impacts combat or char progression is not.
Right there is the generally accepted view that rpg is meaningless and hack n slash is all.
Elaborate.
Like I said, when ever a game has a cash shop the generally accepted view is that vanity items are ok to sell. Why are they ok to sell? Because they are not important or don't count. But clearly if the rpg portion of mmorpgs counted for anything then how you present your character wouldn't be seen as something that can be dismissed. But if a game starts putting weapons, armor, stat increases, buffs, etc... on the market people start screaming and threatening to quit.
For most players the modern mmorpg is nothing more than a really big and complicated console-esque deathmatch map.
Stats that affect combat used to be only one small portion of what mattered in RPGs, MMO or not. So called vanity, cosmetic, crafting, and/or convenience items and/or progression use to be equally, and sometimes moreso, important compared to combat.
As such, saying that RMT is okay so long as it doesn't effect combat or progression (combat related), means that all the other aspects of an RPG are beign neglected. In other words, it's not about creating a immersive virtual RPG world... it's all about making sure the nonstop and meaningless hack 'n' slash gameplay is the only thing that matters.
That's Everquest's fault for being a linear grind fest of a level/gear treadmill.
You know what game didn't have gear or gear grinds? Ultima Online.
Too bad the lesser game was more popular and everyone emulated it, which of course led to WoW which again led to everything we see now.
Everything that is wrong with the MMO genre is Everquest's fault for popularizing the 3D online Diku Mud game play.
The only true MMO to ever exist died a long, long time ago.
Even SWG(old)/FFXI/EvE are nothing more then huge linear grind fests to max level max stats max skills etc.
They are not sandboxes, they simply have an extreme lack of content - forcing you to grind repetitive BS.
UO was the only true sandbox... only real "sandbox" to come out in recent times is Minecraft, and it's not even a MMO...
I'm not exactly sure I know how to respond to this... I really feel like you're asking too much out of the developers.
Many games already include a ton of options for different clothes and armor inside the games that one can use to roleplay. It's not like they said: "Alright, we'll make every single piece the armor in the game look terrible and only for stats so we can scam these role-players who want to look fancy."
Taking Guild Wars 2 for example, they have a seperate slot for town clothes inside the game, town clothes you can easily obtain inside the game. Not only that, they have a palette of over 400 unique armor dyes, hues, etc and each piece of armor or clothes, generally, have 3 different channels for which you can dye them. And most of the dyes can be unlocked inside the game. And, like a lot of other games, they have "transmutation stones" which can alloy you to swap the appearance of one set of gear for another and retain the stats.
Yes, they're combat oriented , but not all of them have just tossed away their roleplaying playerbase. It's simply that they need to generate revenue somehow outside of box costs, and including extra vanity items doesn't break the game. No player gets an unfair advantage over you because they can look like a pirate's wench. Especially when there's enough items in the game for you to fulfill your ninja fantasy. But giving players the ability to have complete advantage over other players in the game is certainly gamebreaking, and can entirely ruin the experience.
I'm not sure what exactly you want out of these games that this isn't enough.
TL:DR, The developers need to make money. Including stronger armor is game breaking. Including different armor isn't, especially when there's already a large variety available in the games.
Edit: I think there's a quote from Kristen Perry somewhere that will explain that GW2 won't make the armors look garbage so you're incentivized to buy the one's in the cash shop.
For the time being, this.
"I fully believed that ArenaNet would be the company that would break the shackles other companies slap on us, stopping us from having characters that look the way we want. They are a company that isn’t afraid to let concept artists try new methods and styles, rather than standing still or going backwards. This allows the game to look great in every aspect, including our characters, which is important to letting us stay connected to the game. With all these features for making our characters looking great, it’s just another reason to be excited about Guild Wars 2."
This too.
That's Everquest's fault for being a linear grind fest of a level/gear treadmill.
You know what game didn't have gear or gear grinds? Ultima Online.
Too bad the lesser game was more popular and everyone emulated it, which of course led to WoW which again led to everything we see now.
Everything that is wrong with the MMO genre is Everquest's fault for popularizing the 3D online Diku Mud game play.
The only true MMO to ever exist died a long, long time ago.
Even SWG(old)/FFXI/EvE are nothing more then huge linear grind fests to max level max stats max skills etc.
They are not sandboxes, they simply have an extreme lack of content - forcing you to grind repetitive BS.
UO was the only true sandbox... only real "sandbox" to come out in recent times is Minecraft, and it's not even a MMO...
I have a hard time arguing against any game where the players could mob and then kill the guy behind the game, while in the game.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I agree. And no, I don't think GW2 or SWOR will save our nostalgia-laced preferences from the decrepit dominion of “good old days” oblivion. RPGers are so exploited by companies and their promises that they’re excited about leftovers. I can hear hundreds of gracious fans shouting “They let us interact with a chair!” and hardly realizing the minimal attempt at appeasement. But rejoice! It’s not just MMOs. It’s pretty much everything.
The point of a company is to make a profit, yes, but that definition of “profit” is relative in regards to mission statements. Very few say: I want to make billions of dollars so I can buy thousands of kitties and make youtube videos. Instead, they say: It is our purpose to bring the very best product, with new innovative ideas, et cetera.” But in reality they want kitties. You see, there didn’t used to be enormous expectations of MMOs. Co. made quality games because they could turn a profit 1st, but also make a quality product that people would come back to day after day. Build a reputation and all. Because of WoW’s mainstream success, companies see dollar signs and therefore (like everything from automobiles to peace signs) they want to exploit it over and over until we have absolute market saturation. Then, after the 3D, errr, MMORPG market is gone, they will move on to something else. So while it’s still making a profit, they will stay at it.
Back to the OP: RP doesn’t make very much money. In 2004, that would be alright for a mmo. Making enough to cover the bills and provide new content would be deemed a success. People would be happy. But Blizz (not blizzards fault, they just timed it right) hit the lottery and now everyone wants to replicate it instead of just making games. The fan base has moved from RPG’s (heavy story with action: think early Square games not ME or FF now) to defining RPG as a hack and slash. It has been the convention now for some time. Now everyone expects it and thinks they want it. But they don’t. EXP: Have you ever eaten fast food, let’s say- McDonalds- for months because you are too busy to cook? And then suddenly you stop eating it completely. The point is, when you go back after months of abstaining on moral grounds and have a burger from McD’s- it is dreadful. Not what you remember. As a culture, we’re hooked on the new MMO because we’re too busy to realize we’re not busy at all. If we spend 6 hours grinding for that last Swatch we could easily be interacting with the game through rp or story. I think it’s not just the fault of the greedy corporations- it’s ours. We demand less because we’re hooked. We demand leftovers. For one, storytelling in MMO’s and immersion needs to evolve. MUD's are no longer cool. But neither is what we have now. We need to believe in the worlds we log on to and invest hours of our lives. Because, unless you enjoy running like a mouse on a wheel for digital gear, you’ll get bored with every game that comes out until they create something that resonates. Sorry for long post.
Cheers.
The sad thing though is that this isn't just happening to mmoRPG's, it's also happening to other genre's as well. Dumbing down content to cater to the "young and fast" crowd that only has time enough for itself. This has been happening for a while, sometimes, though, some game developer does try to slow things down, but they either don't sell enough copies, or the sequel gets dumbed down so that copies can sell. This isn't a problem with the developer, but with the publisher.
It's the ability to massivley market a single game to billions of people simultaneously that is ruining video games. Publisher's just aren't happy with dedicated hardcore gamers, they want the world, they want the games that developer's create to be mass marketable and playable by everyone, or the money goes away and the dev team doesn't get the funding they need for their project. Sadly, anyone who wants to play an mmoRPG is a niche gamer, and publishers don't want niche anymore, they want mainstream.
It takes a lot of time and resources to develop a decent game. The money and resources it takes to develop a game, the more money it has to make. Nobody wants to lose money on 4 years worth of work.
MMORPG are at the extreme end of money and resources required to develop a game. Which means they are probably going to be at the extreme end of 'main stream'. There's a lot of games in the genre though...so it's pushing other developers to branch out a bit and looks for those games that aren't necessarily main stream.
More successful games, even the mainstream variety is a good thing. Even if they are games you won't play, they will push the next game towards something a bit different, and maybe something you'll play.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Well, yes and no. It takes a lot of resources to make the multi-media tour de force that seemingly rules the day in these here waters.
Does it need to be so? I say no. Glitz and glamour are NOT what makes a good game. Good gameplay is what makes a good game.
What the hell does voice acting have to do with good gameplay? Not an effing thing.
Yes, yes, I know... no one has TIME to read.
And yet, voice acting is, at least in part, exactly why Oblivion fell down in front of Morrowind in my humble opinion and that of many others. We got a much lesser world chock full of voice acting and glitzy glamour.
Don't get me wrong. There absolutely should be a share of the market devoted to the type of game like Mass Effect that makes you feel like you are in a movie. Did I like Mass Effect? Yes. But certainly not for depth of gameplay! It was a pretty shallow shooter, actually, with a voice acted (read movie) script that was mostly ok.
It's getting to the point that soon we will no longer be talking about games as much, if at all. Soon we will have no real games at least in the world of MMOs. They'll all be more or less interactive movies. Modern couch potatoes rejoice!
Probably why I've mostly gone back to board wargames. I don't expect that such companies who barely understand what a game even IS anymore are going to be offering much along those lines any time soon. Or maybe ever again.
Star Control 2 was a FANTASTIC game! Still is. It was made by two guys and was very low budget. But it had heart and it had soul!
It's just the way the industry goes.
The more popular, dumbed down game (EQ) was making more money and was more "successful" then the better, more complex and intersting game (UO) so guess what happens?
We see WoW eventually, but before that we see "sandbox" games with huge leveling /skill / gear grinds like EvE/FFXI/SWG.
Even the OP and most of you would never play a true sandbox MMO RPG because there would be no loot to acquire, no levels to raise, no skills to sharpen, simply player interaction with a living, breathing NPC community in a vast, open world.
No end game. No progression. No dice rolls or Diku MUD D&D stats to make people feel better about themselves.
Blasphemy, I know right?
Please, explain to me a non-shallow shooter?
Ok, you've got me there Spock.
They are all shallow.
One reason I'm not much of a fan of those types of games. The interactive movie called Mass Effect 1 was fairly interesting for a time. But not really a very good game in my opinion. You take the glitz out of Mass Effect and it would likely suck eggs.
I wasn't referring to what is in the game, I was referring the commonly accepted mindset that dismisses the importance of rpg aspects of the game when people say its ok to sell vanity items but not combat related items.
I think the ME series had great story, great characters, and great, solid game play - very few if any flaws.
The biggest thing they did right was create a new and interesting Sci-Fi world and man did they ever fill out that world with all the lore/history from the codex and all the side content/missions etc.
After 3 RPG's in this universe, I like many others am going to be begging for more games set in the ME universe, RPG or not.
It's incredibly difficult to create a new Sci-Fi or Fantasy intellectual property and actually have it be successful.
The ME universe really drew me in where as the Dragon Age did not.
No RPG in my MMORPG? Well, to me it's all about being immersed in the world.
UO did that for me. Even WoW did that for me. Rift is growing on me... but still is pretty generic/unintersting fantasy.
SWG did NOT do it for me, I never knew anything about the EQ world because I hated the game play so much.
RPG, story, immersion to me is all about whether or not you can or cannot be sucked into the game world.
It's a very personal thing but in the end it comes down to how much effort the devs put into making you really feel like you really are in another world/universe.
You don't have to use thee and thou and all that to role play or speek in character or anything like that... if anything it can feel like you are forcing the RP into it.
It's all about immersion.
Wanting to see what's in that cave or at the top of that mountain and NOT because you know/wish loot is in there for you.
Wanting to kill your enemies not to get loot but because you legitimately dislike/hate everything about them.
etc,
I still don't understand how that dismisses the importance of the RPG aspect. It may be saying "Combat is more important" because one's seen as gamebreaking, and the other generally isn't but the attention to the RPG aspect of the game is still shown heavily, and Arena Net still aspires to put the RPG back into MMORPG.
I'm just gonna say this, best fucking post EVER! I totally agree with this guy and been saying all this for a while now, kodos to you Coyote for having the balls to post this in the light of the community, good job!
Great post OP , the consolation is we have know MMORPGs. Most of the crowd these days just wants insta win and thats not what these game were about. The genre as was died a long time ago and the gameplay dissapeared.
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Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
You keep acknowledging that people don't see the rpg aspect as important, what is it you don't understand?
And regardless of what Arenanet aspires to do it doesn't count for anything until its done. Nothing counts in MMO's until it launches.
How about this..let GW2 release and let us see? it is too soon to talk about RPG aspect of GW2.
Problem is, many of today's gamers missed the first generation of mmoRPG's in their glory days, so they aren't going to relate to the points in this OP.
They truely don't know what fun they missed and I think if a developer took a chance and created a new AAA game using more of the "discarded" features from those earlier titles I think they'd find they had a pretty successful game on their hands.
No, it might never come close to WOW, but not every title has to swing for the fence.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Coyote, great article. I love your pictures and humor.
I have to say, though, telling people that MMORPG aren't for them, because they enjoy WoW type games is a little foolish. Those are basically the only games out there. You article was great until you erroneously pointed out that MMORPGs are not for the majority of people actually playing MMOs.
One would think after 11 years some company would have tried to clone EQ, AC or DAoC. Truly depressing.
I think that part of the problem is that the gaming industry has lost sight of where RPG's came from and are continuing to make them as they always have because they are afraid to try a new sort of mmoRPG that breaks every single rule, spoken or otherwise. MMORPG's were spawned when people wanted to play RPG's online together, they came after the single player RPG, which came after tabletop games.
Tabletop RPG's had to be restrictive, not because no one didn't want play an incredibly huge sandbox type game on their table, but because it was a table, and tables aren't really big enough to play the world on.
Anyway, as computers became more powerful that kind of gameplay was translated into a game that you could play on your computer (Rogue), then came consoles, games like Final Fantasy, and the rest is history.
The problem though, is that no one wants to reinvent the wheel, but that's all we sit here in these forums and talk about, how devs should reinvent the rpg.
The only way to get rid of gear progression is to eliminate stats on items, instead progression would come from research and adventure. Every ability would come Zelda style, I.E. you if you want to throw fireballs around, you would have to adventure through the world until you found a npc fireball trainer, who you would then have to convince to train you, and THEN you could cast a fireball. what you are asking is for devs to use a more literal translation of RPG, instead of giving us toons with stats, restrictring what we can and can't do with classes, further restricting what gear we can wear, giving us complex spell trees with spells we have to rotate through, and populating the world with pathetic looking monsters, you want to start with a stick and work your up to fireballs after dying a dozen times, instead of being a mildly annoying waste of time, you want death to be part of the game mechanics, you want a huge world in which you can do whatever the hell you want and yet, I really doubt that there is a single publisher (except, maybe, possibly, perhaps, but not really, a couple), who would take a risk doing something so awfully risky.
There is more to building a game than just time, effort, and funding, there is experimentation as well. It's just too bad that you can't experiment with thirty different things in one game, because if you did, you wouldn't be able to tell what was working well from what was completely broken, everything would be kind of mashed together into some-thing, and I know that I would rather play WoW, or Final Fantasy, or Rift, or Fire Emblem, or anything else really, rather than some-thing, because there are lot's of things in the world, and you can't really define all those things into something playable unless you weed out the things that just don't work, first. And, what works better than anything else in the world, in your head, may not work at all in reality.
I guess the gist of what I'm trying to say is that you want the genre to go from A to B to C to Z, but you can't realistically expect anyone to make such a huge jump all at once, you have to move forwards gradually, from C to D to E, etc, before getting to Z, otherwise you'll be stuck with something that is really cool, but, only, kinda, sorta, maybe, not really.
I never acknowledged that people think the RPG aspect isn't important, just that the combat in a game, among the majority of people who play them, takes precedence.
What I don't understand is how you can jump to such an extreme conclusion as that. Even World of Warcraft, the MMO which is being specifically referred to as dumbing down the "RPG" aspect of MMORPGs, has very healthy RP servers and lots of items for customization.
What is the specific game you're referring to that's use of vanity items in a cash shop completely dilutes all RPG qualities, because if you can't give me specific observations, then this is just a baseless complaint. Personally, I'm a huge fan of RPG's and I don't see, at all, vanity items in a cash shop deeming RP completely unimportant. With you, it sounds like there's no middle ground. Either the RPG is the only important aspect, or it is completely unimportant in these games.