And yet the money keeps rolling in. New games keep getting developed. Without all that money being thrown around the industry, we would see very little new development. There have been some (ok, several) bad starts (WAR, STO, CO, etc.), but the money keeps coming in, and games keep getting developed. The current progression is something that would have happened regardless...WoW didn't start it, they're just a weird blip in the middle of the MMORPG progression path. Without WoW, there would just be a lot less money floating around and the progression path would be a lot slower.
Maybe, maybe not. WoW may have set the standards as we know, but if it wouldn't have been WoW it would have been another game people would have flocked to and we'd still be here talking about who 'IT' started the wave.
All the money being thrown in is great, to the shareholders and the companies, but seriously has left the gamer bewildered and some disgruntled at the "why's" and "how's" of the crop of games coming out and not doing so well.
Again perspective, you choose that side, I chose the other. Why else would there be soo many threads here about 'The next WoW killer' or why so much hate or fanboism toward game 'X'.
And not all companies go for the WoW clone or its success. Indy companies try for something different and with time, one will come out that will of good quality and might surprise the Big boys of mmo development.
Change never happens by accepting the status quo. Money can talk so much until the time comes when they see little is happening to the genre even after so much money is thrown its way,
If you reread my post without the jaded glasses, you'll notice that I have nothing inflammatory or derogatory in there. I'm merely saying that, as an investor, new ideas are HUGELY risky. Not only are they risky in and of themselves, they must compete with a giant behemoth.
Frankly seems repeating the same old tired games seems rather risky as well, just ask Mythic. Most of the conventional MMOs of the last 5 years have done rather poorly or even really bad.
I think it is more that it is a lot more work to create and test out new game mechanics and work is money. Investors preferably gives away as little money as possible and take back as much as they can.
We've all seen how well the inumerable WoW knock offs have done recently so your argument really isn't very well substantiated. Why would someone make another WoW clone when they keep failing? In WoW's current state it really shouldn't be too hard to build something that's more immersive but developers aren't aiming for that.
Hell, I never said they needed to build a copy of an old school game either. You assumed that's what I was saying. I said nothings managed to hold the majority of old school mmorpg gamers interest that has launched within the last 5 - 6 years. A brand new game with new, well thought out, mechanics could come along and give us something refreshing.
There really is no need to take such a hostile tone...
To counter your argument a bit:
1. I said nothing about "WoW knock offs". I stated that for a game to do well, it needs a big budget and a large playerbase. Said playerbase typically comes from broad appeal.
2. Again, I never stated that developers should be pumping out "WoW clones".
3. You may not have said it explicitly, but when you cite 4 of the most "hardcore / oldschool" games of that era, what else is anyone else supposed to assume? You can't get mad at people for drawing the most logical conclusion if your words are misleading.
4. "New, well thought out mechanics" are very hard to come by for a couple of reasons. They take a load of time and effort to conceptualize. They also take a load of time and money to implement.
If you reread my post without the jaded glasses, you'll notice that I have nothing inflammatory or derogatory in there. I'm merely saying that, as an investor, new ideas are HUGELY risky. Not only are they risky in and of themselves, they must compete with a giant behemoth.
There wasn't a hostile tone intended there. I tend to write something just like I'd say it to your face. You did assume I was asking for a developer to simply rehash an old game and I'd thought I was fairly clear on that point. Even if the "new mechanics" are hard to come up with that shouldn't give current developers a way out. "Oh, it's too hard to make a great game!" isn't a good excuse.
Someone just needs to put a microphone in front of me for 8-12 hours and maybe one of those court typers to chronical everything I say - and then just let me go on for the day about how to make a perfect MMORPG...
then pay me to stay on staff to make sure you're implementing it correctly.
Originally posted by BadSpock Originally posted by whisperwynd
As for the leaving guild or not, the anonymity was less there when the community as a whole built up those relationships rather than pick and choose out of the litter based on ilvl and availability. This progression is one of the problems I see in Mmo's today. No building of reputation WITHIN the game server's community.
But WoW had this and had this in spades back in the days of Vanilla/Classic and Burning Crusade. Good tanks/healers were a rare commodity that was covetted and carefully courted. Good DPS that could do more for a raid/group then do damage were a dime a dozen. Players had rep and skill mattered.
Then came the LFG tool and cross-realm LFG... completely ruined that. It still exists to some extent at a raid-wide level, as in you don't get invited to tank or heal for a guild's raids unless you can prove your skill... but how do you prove that skill anymore or "get recruited" without server-only small group content? The entire dynamics of the community has shifted and all thanks to WOTLK and the LFG tool and cross-server queue... Ruined the game IMO. Then, of course, you combined that with GearScore and the Acheivement system, both also came around during WOTLK which meant you had to prove you had already done content before you'd be invited to do content... But how would you ever do content if you were required to do content... before you could do it? Again, this perfect storm, tri-fecta of terrible FAIL that hit WoW during WOTLK completely ruined the game. Ulduar was some of the best raiding the game had ever done.
The only thing the tools WoW implemented did was to push many more people to the level of being able to start raids. The problem with that (I think) is that those people didn't want to start raiding, they just wanted to continue playing the game the way they always played the game and continue their gear progression. There's a sharp difference between progression in raids and the entire rest of the game.
All that stuff about needing to prove you did content before you could do content was happening long before WotLK. It was a staple of raiding guilds. They looked at your gear, critiqued your build, etc. Not much has changed there. There were just fewer people trying to do it.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
The question is how much Wow itself have created this type of community.
Before Wow MMOs were mostly if not only played by people known as "gamers and geeks" (if you read this forum you are one of us). But Blizzard got regular people into playing and I am not sure how that affected the community.
Surely the materalistic view Wow have on gear (stuff is more important than skill) and it's rewarding of egoism affected the community in some way but I am not sure how much.
The argument of pre gamers being geeks and nerds is fine, but take the context of the time those games were in. Not many were into the computer networking thing, internet wasn't as prevalent or so widespread. The progression of technology and connecting people was ever expanding and the right timing and circumstances with which Blizz brought out WoW..and Boom. Instant hit.
Alot of Mmo player nowadays started with WoW, trying the older games after playing WoW. No wonder they didn't like them. The gear focused mentality is now the norm because of the influx of newer players and having little understanding of the mechanics of the games before it.
Instant gratification can hardly be argued against when it is now the norm and most gamers have gotten used to it.
We were a niche crowd back then to be sure, but it seems to me the respect we gave one another is overshadowed in today's games, no matter the population.
The only thing WoW ruined was itself - over years of patches and expansions that changed the game and really took it far, far away from the original direction.
And why? Because we (maybe not us here on MMORPG.com) asked them to.
We didn't know this was where it'd lead, but WoW is really a shadow and a whisper of the game it once was... yet, at the same time, all of the quality of life improvements made to the game have made certain/many things much better.
But over all, despite all the fixes and positive changes, something was certainly lost. The soul of the game one could say.
The problem with this whole argument is that the fact or statement in question, whether or not WoW ruined MMO's is dependent on whether or not you feel they are indeed ruined - Also, WoW ruining itself is purely a matter of opinion by the player. As WoW has been patched over the years, it has become much more casual freindly, which for a guy like me - 30 with a full time job and a 4 y/o, couldn't be better. It's worse for the hardcore, but I'm causual and never really liked the way it was. So you see, the whole argument is based on pure opinion and therefore is kinda pointless. Yes?
The only thing the tools WoW implemented did was to push many more people to the level of being able to start raids. The problem with that (I think) is that those people didn't want to start raiding, they just wanted to continue playing the game the way they always played the game and continue their gear progression. There's a sharp difference between progression in raids and the entire rest of the game.
All that stuff about needing to prove you did content before you could do content was happening long before WotLK. It was a staple of raiding guilds. They looked at your gear, critiqued your build, etc. Not much has changed there. There were just fewer people trying to do it.
I think in the end the worst thing WoW ever did or has done is NOT create a steady stream of new content for players of all play styles.
It's just amazing to me with all the money they were bringing in... how come they weren't hiring like mad and pumping out dungeon after dungeon, raid after raid after raid...
Instead they would release new content every what, 6-9 months? And only some what recently did they start actually releasing more 5-person content with increases rewards.
So they HAD to release content that was grindy to keep you placated for 6-9 months.
So then they HAD to implement dungeon finder tools and cross-server queue group stuff because the content was such a damned grind.
Worst thing WoW did to genre , is what it did to mind of shareholders and CEO's of game companies.
They all started to develop wow-killers with dream of getting millions of subscribers , while WoW is abnormality , one shot thing that won't be repeated anymore.
But decision-makers were blinded and all major companies wanted to do' mmorpg's for everyone' , killing invention and following same pattern.
Levelling + quest hubs + streamlining and easy mode+ cutting out or dumbing down every non-combat mmmorpg's aspect + running instances at end game.
After few spectacular fails , I hope they learned. Mmmorpg's need to start to be more innovatinve , start to diffrer from each other , appeasing more to certain niches. Apart of that mmorpg having nice and steady 500 k + subscribers should be viewed as succesful , more niche games should be vieved as succes with 300 k +.
I very much doubt that after WoW die , we will see one game dominating market that much again. More like there willl be few big games with 1 mln + players and then few more succesful titles with 300 k + ,and then all the rest.
Originally posted by whisperwynd Originally posted by lizardbones And yet the money keeps rolling in. New games keep getting developed. Without all that money being thrown around the industry, we would see very little new development. There have been some (ok, several) bad starts (WAR, STO, CO, etc.), but the money keeps coming in, and games keep getting developed. The current progression is something that would have happened regardless...WoW didn't start it, they're just a weird blip in the middle of the MMORPG progression path. Without WoW, there would just be a lot less money floating around and the progression path would be a lot slower.
Maybe, maybe not. WoW may have set the standards as we know, but if it wouldn't have been WoW it would have been another game people would have flocked to and we'd still be here talking about who 'IT' started the wave. All the money being thrown in is great, to the shareholders and the companies, but seriously has left the gamer bewildered and some disgruntled at the "why's" and "how's" of the crop of games coming out and not doing so well. Again perspective, you choose that side, I chose the other. Why else would there be soo many threads here about 'The next WoW killer' or why so much hate or fanboism toward game 'X'. And not all companies go for the WoW clone or its success. Indy companies try for something different and with time, one will come out that will of good quality and might surprise the Big boys of mmo development. Change never happens by accepting the status quo. Money can talk so much until the time comes when they see little is happening to the genre even after so much money is thrown its way,
That's just it. Change is happening. It started with UO (and something else prior to that, I forget what), moved on to EQ, then to WoW and now it's moving towards something else. Every one of these games incorporated something from games before, and added something new. Even if it was more of what came before and not very much new, there was something new. That's still happening. It would still be happening without WoW, but it would never occur to anyone that you could write one of these games and get 11 Million people to play year after year. That makes a $50,000,000 investment look plausible.
I think you're right though...it's not going to last forever. Some of these games have to start panning out at least as well as Rift did. Right now it looks like they're just scrambling around trying to figure out how to make things work...they have to get past that, like other portions of the game industry have.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
That's just it. Change is happening. It started with UO (and something else prior to that, I forget what), moved on to EQ, then to WoW and now it's moving towards something else. Every one of these games incorporated something from games before, and added something new. Even if it was more of what came before and not very much new, there was something new. That's still happening. It would still be happening without WoW, but it would never occur to anyone that you could write one of these games and get 11 Million people to play year after year. That makes a $50,000,000 investment look plausible.
I think you're right though...it's not going to last forever. Some of these games have to start panning out at least as well as Rift did. Right now it looks like they're just scrambling around trying to figure out how to make things work...they have to get past that, like other portions of the game industry have.
You're right, it is changing and it would be foolishness to say otherwise. Maybe it's just the sheer amount of games now popping out and how they play that makes it difficlut to see real progress.
I guess time will tell if mmo's are going in the direction of the player in mind or the investor in mind. I do believe however, that the gamer in mind mmo will be much better received by those who will actually fill the investor's pockets than what those investors assume will.
I don't think doing an exact clone of an "old school" game is a good way to go either. On the other hand, there are some "old school" concepts that the newer games have dismissed that we are probably ill-served for having lost them.
It almost as if Taco Bell came along and started outselling McDonalds and every fast food joint in the country turned around and said, "Burgers suck, you can't sell burgers. Lets all make Taco's."
That's just plain dumb. Even if taco's were 10 times more popular then burgers, if there are already 50 taco places in town and only 1 burger joint...are you going to stand a better chance selling taco's or burgers if you open up a new food place?
Wow popped up at a time when very few MMO's existed. SWG was just gutted and people were sick of EQ. the influx of refugee's they gathered help boost the game along with the old warcraft/starcraft/diablo players. It became huge for that reason and it's popular due to entire guilds going poof for the new shiny called Wow.
It made blizzard very wealthy and many game companys admired the beast for it's ability to hook suckers in and keep them paying money.
The game was geared for supposed new players to the genre but it was a dupe that lured you into the gear race of end game.
The game itself is another outdated MMO with developers who now experiment with the old girl to see what they can make it do. it past it's prime and that prime was wrath.
You can sit around all day making up anything you like but if we have any problems in the industry and newer games, it's that those new games adhere to the marketing mantra of blizzard and that effects how these new games are made.
The trick is to see how many ex-Wow players you can gain. thats what these new companys build games for now, ex-Wow players or newbies who are just starting.
The damage has been done. this generation of gamers are all ex-Wow players and they want their shinys now or they will walk. it's what blizzard taught them now they are unleashed upon the gaming world with all there little fits and ability to troll they rule all new games and will shape them to be like Wow.
Am I really the only one who thinks that bringing MMO's to the mainstream public was a bad thing? I liked the way MMO's were before WoW. They were all different and I liked the variety. Up and coming MMO projects were exciting to read about and were different, not just another WoW clone with 1 or 2 new features or twists on existing features. I think there is room in the MMO market for a game like WoW (ie. very linear casual quest hub games), but the success of WoW turned 1 WoW into virtually all releases after WoW into WoW-like games.
It's funny because those are three reasons it DID ruin MMO's for the industry. Seriously do a better job man
You say WoTLK was your favorite? Everything wrong with that game(new anyways) was set in motion with WoTLK and reached full speed in Cataclysm. All the pandering MMOs do to little snot nose kids that only want to get epics with ease? Popularized with wrath; bit WoW in the ass in Cata. Because of cata investors are seeing it as good to make the games super easy so that even a toddler could get full epics and tank the end raids. Difficulty dropped to low levels in all fronts and the player base quality, population, and interest suffered for it. Now Blizzard is struggling to hold up their empire because of the destruction they set into motion. To like Wrath is to be one of millions that want nothing but to get what they want; though I concede some regions were nice even if they did not hold up to toasty old Ironforge.
Can we have this article rotated to someone else (not coyote) and have it changed to show solid arguments not flawed opinions people heard everywhere else?
It is best for the industry the MMO throne remains an dusty empty seat never to be filled.
Wow, I must say that MMO players are the hardest buunch of people to make/keep happy. All I see on this site is negativity of the highest degree - Why a game sucks or will fail, most post are before the games even come out. It's sad.
WoW didn't ruin MMO's... the players did. It seems that no one is happy with anything anymore. Check it out for yourself... take a look around one day and weigh the positive post with the negative. You will be suprised how generally uphappy most MMO'ers are.
I quit WoW many many times and I'm now back in there and having a great time. For ME at least, WoW didn't ruin MMO's, it saved them. Without it, I would be playing a single player game.
You know what? There is actually a reason why all you hear on forums is complaints... And its not what you are describing! The "Happy" MMO players are (gasp!) PLAYING, and having fun! While ignoring the freaking Trolls that inhabit the forums.
And the only problem with that is that, sometimes the Devs "listen to the Trolls"... /doublefacepalm
Am I really the only one who thinks that bringing MMO's to the mainstream public was a bad thing? I liked the way MMO's were before WoW. They were all different and I liked the variety. Up and coming MMO projects were exciting to read about and were different, not just another WoW clone with 1 or 2 new features or twists on existing features. I think there is room in the MMO market for a game like WoW (ie. very linear casual quest hub games), but the success of WoW turned 1 WoW into virtually all releases after WoW into WoW-like games.
Believe me, I had fun in WoW, however not to sound like a hypocrit I sometimes wish WoW was never created. As stated in a earlier post, I was happy on what we have. And as you stated, there was still was a veriety of other mmorpg's out there to try.
SOE was reigning with their Everquest and Star Wars Galaxies mmorpg and you had Mythic conqueroring the 3 faction system with Realm vs Realm wars. Ultima Online was considered even old school then, but had a huge niche crowd of PvP followers for fantasy as Eve Online grabbed the niche crowd in outer space.
Asherons Call also was way before it times, especially the mechanics they had in the games and Anarchy Online was a nice twisted Sci Fi game, which to had a 3 factions (Omni, Clan and Neutral).
I could go on and talk about other games I loved, like Shadowbane and Earth and Beyond, but going to cut this short before I start to ramble. All the games I mentioned had bugs and bad laucnhes, however to me it was a pretty magical time to be a geek mmorpg gamer.
The year 2004 changed mmorpg's as we seem them today, anything prior to 2004 to me is considered old school mmorpgs. Unfortunately WoW set the bar in 2005 on what MMO should be about to the masses.
Actually all 3 reason named here are large contributors as to why and how WoW did infact ruin not only Mmorpg games them self , but the community's playing them and the dev's making them .
I'm confused as to why this is devils advocate? Pretty much only the small community on this site thinks WoW is so horrible and ruined mmorpgs.
People comlain about wow being easy now? That might be so... But that argument is not valid the way 99% of people here tend to make it. Automated LFG features did not ruin anything. "Difficult" in an MMO should not be judged by how difficult or how much time it takes to find a damn group. You should be able to find a group almost instantly for anything you want to do. It's a game. The difficulty should come in trying to complete said task.
It's not fun to spend hours with nothing to do because you can't get a group together for one reason or another. It's fun to be challenged with difficult content that requires a team of players to work well together.
I don't blame Blizzard or WoW for the state that games are now days. I blame the developers of those games. They release games too early, full of bugs, lack of content, looking to sell alot of boxes using an IP, then selling the game or making it f2p later. One of the main reasons for WoW's popularity is the fact that Blizzard went out on a limb and bought primetime advertising spots. I've only ever seen 2 other MMO commercials other than WoW. Rift and Global Agenda. Neither really were in primetime like WoW was, but theys till advertised.
Funny how people blame WOW for stagnating the market when, in actuality, WOW was designed with input from huge EQ raiding guilds and EQ in mind. Oh, how do we forget.
No the market stagnated before WOW and as WOW changed the landscape of MMO's (from time sinks to casual players), it proved what successes MMO's could become.
Look at how many MMO's launched in the first 6 years of EQ's existence and in the last 6. The market may not be where a minority of players want it, but its far from stagnant.
Had WOW not come along, then we would have had a stagnant market.
As a relatively new player, I have tried several mmo's (including EQ, Rift, LOTR, and several others) -- not including any of the FPS games --since they are boring to me. After all the trials, I still come back to Wow, because it has every facet of the others and a much more polished interface and help system (including the ability for add-ons) as many do not.
This makes it enjoyable for myself and , obviously, millions of others--- if you don't agree--go play the others and enjoy -- as we do.
Comments
Maybe, maybe not. WoW may have set the standards as we know, but if it wouldn't have been WoW it would have been another game people would have flocked to and we'd still be here talking about who 'IT' started the wave.
All the money being thrown in is great, to the shareholders and the companies, but seriously has left the gamer bewildered and some disgruntled at the "why's" and "how's" of the crop of games coming out and not doing so well.
Again perspective, you choose that side, I chose the other. Why else would there be soo many threads here about 'The next WoW killer' or why so much hate or fanboism toward game 'X'.
And not all companies go for the WoW clone or its success. Indy companies try for something different and with time, one will come out that will of good quality and might surprise the Big boys of mmo development.
Change never happens by accepting the status quo. Money can talk so much until the time comes when they see little is happening to the genre even after so much money is thrown its way,
Doesn't take that much time and/or money to create a systems-heavy game vs. a content heavy game.
Creating ways to create immergent content - that's the future.
Frankly seems repeating the same old tired games seems rather risky as well, just ask Mythic. Most of the conventional MMOs of the last 5 years have done rather poorly or even really bad.
I think it is more that it is a lot more work to create and test out new game mechanics and work is money. Investors preferably gives away as little money as possible and take back as much as they can.
There wasn't a hostile tone intended there. I tend to write something just like I'd say it to your face. You did assume I was asking for a developer to simply rehash an old game and I'd thought I was fairly clear on that point. Even if the "new mechanics" are hard to come up with that shouldn't give current developers a way out. "Oh, it's too hard to make a great game!" isn't a good excuse.
Someone just needs to put a microphone in front of me for 8-12 hours and maybe one of those court typers to chronical everything I say - and then just let me go on for the day about how to make a perfect MMORPG...
then pay me to stay on staff to make sure you're implementing it correctly.
Done. Everyone wins.
So, whose buying?
Good tanks/healers were a rare commodity that was covetted and carefully courted.
Good DPS that could do more for a raid/group then do damage were a dime a dozen.
Players had rep and skill mattered.
Then came the LFG tool and cross-realm LFG... completely ruined that. It still exists to some extent at a raid-wide level, as in you don't get invited to tank or heal for a guild's raids unless you can prove your skill...
but how do you prove that skill anymore or "get recruited" without server-only small group content? The entire dynamics of the community has shifted and all thanks to WOTLK and the LFG tool and cross-server queue...
Ruined the game IMO.
Then, of course, you combined that with GearScore and the Acheivement system, both also came around during WOTLK which meant you had to prove you had already done content before you'd be invited to do content...
But how would you ever do content if you were required to do content... before you could do it?
Again, this perfect storm, tri-fecta of terrible FAIL that hit WoW during WOTLK completely ruined the game.
Ulduar was some of the best raiding the game had ever done.
The only thing the tools WoW implemented did was to push many more people to the level of being able to start raids. The problem with that (I think) is that those people didn't want to start raiding, they just wanted to continue playing the game the way they always played the game and continue their gear progression. There's a sharp difference between progression in raids and the entire rest of the game.
All that stuff about needing to prove you did content before you could do content was happening long before WotLK. It was a staple of raiding guilds. They looked at your gear, critiqued your build, etc. Not much has changed there. There were just fewer people trying to do it.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
The argument of pre gamers being geeks and nerds is fine, but take the context of the time those games were in. Not many were into the computer networking thing, internet wasn't as prevalent or so widespread. The progression of technology and connecting people was ever expanding and the right timing and circumstances with which Blizz brought out WoW..and Boom. Instant hit.
Alot of Mmo player nowadays started with WoW, trying the older games after playing WoW. No wonder they didn't like them. The gear focused mentality is now the norm because of the influx of newer players and having little understanding of the mechanics of the games before it.
Instant gratification can hardly be argued against when it is now the norm and most gamers have gotten used to it.
We were a niche crowd back then to be sure, but it seems to me the respect we gave one another is overshadowed in today's games, no matter the population.
The problem with this whole argument is that the fact or statement in question, whether or not WoW ruined MMO's is dependent on whether or not you feel they are indeed ruined - Also, WoW ruining itself is purely a matter of opinion by the player. As WoW has been patched over the years, it has become much more casual freindly, which for a guy like me - 30 with a full time job and a 4 y/o, couldn't be better. It's worse for the hardcore, but I'm causual and never really liked the way it was. So you see, the whole argument is based on pure opinion and therefore is kinda pointless. Yes?
I think in the end the worst thing WoW ever did or has done is NOT create a steady stream of new content for players of all play styles.
It's just amazing to me with all the money they were bringing in... how come they weren't hiring like mad and pumping out dungeon after dungeon, raid after raid after raid...
Instead they would release new content every what, 6-9 months? And only some what recently did they start actually releasing more 5-person content with increases rewards.
So they HAD to release content that was grindy to keep you placated for 6-9 months.
So then they HAD to implement dungeon finder tools and cross-server queue group stuff because the content was such a damned grind.
Worst thing WoW did to genre , is what it did to mind of shareholders and CEO's of game companies.
They all started to develop wow-killers with dream of getting millions of subscribers , while WoW is abnormality , one shot thing that won't be repeated anymore.
But decision-makers were blinded and all major companies wanted to do' mmorpg's for everyone' , killing invention and following same pattern.
Levelling + quest hubs + streamlining and easy mode+ cutting out or dumbing down every non-combat mmmorpg's aspect + running instances at end game.
After few spectacular fails , I hope they learned. Mmmorpg's need to start to be more innovatinve , start to diffrer from each other , appeasing more to certain niches. Apart of that mmorpg having nice and steady 500 k + subscribers should be viewed as succesful , more niche games should be vieved as succes with 300 k +.
I very much doubt that after WoW die , we will see one game dominating market that much again. More like there willl be few big games with 1 mln + players and then few more succesful titles with 300 k + ,and then all the rest.
i like money
All the money being thrown in is great, to the shareholders and the companies, but seriously has left the gamer bewildered and some disgruntled at the "why's" and "how's" of the crop of games coming out and not doing so well.
Again perspective, you choose that side, I chose the other. Why else would there be soo many threads here about 'The next WoW killer' or why so much hate or fanboism toward game 'X'.
And not all companies go for the WoW clone or its success. Indy companies try for something different and with time, one will come out that will of good quality and might surprise the Big boys of mmo development.
Change never happens by accepting the status quo. Money can talk so much until the time comes when they see little is happening to the genre even after so much money is thrown its way,
That's just it. Change is happening. It started with UO (and something else prior to that, I forget what), moved on to EQ, then to WoW and now it's moving towards something else. Every one of these games incorporated something from games before, and added something new. Even if it was more of what came before and not very much new, there was something new. That's still happening. It would still be happening without WoW, but it would never occur to anyone that you could write one of these games and get 11 Million people to play year after year. That makes a $50,000,000 investment look plausible.
I think you're right though...it's not going to last forever. Some of these games have to start panning out at least as well as Rift did. Right now it looks like they're just scrambling around trying to figure out how to make things work...they have to get past that, like other portions of the game industry have.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
You're right, it is changing and it would be foolishness to say otherwise. Maybe it's just the sheer amount of games now popping out and how they play that makes it difficlut to see real progress.
I guess time will tell if mmo's are going in the direction of the player in mind or the investor in mind. I do believe however, that the gamer in mind mmo will be much better received by those who will actually fill the investor's pockets than what those investors assume will.
I don't think doing an exact clone of an "old school" game is a good way to go either. On the other hand, there are some "old school" concepts that the newer games have dismissed that we are probably ill-served for having lost them.
It almost as if Taco Bell came along and started outselling McDonalds and every fast food joint in the country turned around and said, "Burgers suck, you can't sell burgers. Lets all make Taco's."
That's just plain dumb. Even if taco's were 10 times more popular then burgers, if there are already 50 taco places in town and only 1 burger joint...are you going to stand a better chance selling taco's or burgers if you open up a new food place?
Wow popped up at a time when very few MMO's existed. SWG was just gutted and people were sick of EQ. the influx of refugee's they gathered help boost the game along with the old warcraft/starcraft/diablo players. It became huge for that reason and it's popular due to entire guilds going poof for the new shiny called Wow.
It made blizzard very wealthy and many game companys admired the beast for it's ability to hook suckers in and keep them paying money.
The game was geared for supposed new players to the genre but it was a dupe that lured you into the gear race of end game.
The game itself is another outdated MMO with developers who now experiment with the old girl to see what they can make it do. it past it's prime and that prime was wrath.
You can sit around all day making up anything you like but if we have any problems in the industry and newer games, it's that those new games adhere to the marketing mantra of blizzard and that effects how these new games are made.
The trick is to see how many ex-Wow players you can gain. thats what these new companys build games for now, ex-Wow players or newbies who are just starting.
The damage has been done. this generation of gamers are all ex-Wow players and they want their shinys now or they will walk. it's what blizzard taught them now they are unleashed upon the gaming world with all there little fits and ability to troll they rule all new games and will shape them to be like Wow.
Am I really the only one who thinks that bringing MMO's to the mainstream public was a bad thing? I liked the way MMO's were before WoW. They were all different and I liked the variety. Up and coming MMO projects were exciting to read about and were different, not just another WoW clone with 1 or 2 new features or twists on existing features. I think there is room in the MMO market for a game like WoW (ie. very linear casual quest hub games), but the success of WoW turned 1 WoW into virtually all releases after WoW into WoW-like games.
It's funny because those are three reasons it DID ruin MMO's for the industry. Seriously do a better job man
You say WoTLK was your favorite? Everything wrong with that game(new anyways) was set in motion with WoTLK and reached full speed in Cataclysm. All the pandering MMOs do to little snot nose kids that only want to get epics with ease? Popularized with wrath; bit WoW in the ass in Cata. Because of cata investors are seeing it as good to make the games super easy so that even a toddler could get full epics and tank the end raids. Difficulty dropped to low levels in all fronts and the player base quality, population, and interest suffered for it. Now Blizzard is struggling to hold up their empire because of the destruction they set into motion. To like Wrath is to be one of millions that want nothing but to get what they want; though I concede some regions were nice even if they did not hold up to toasty old Ironforge.
Can we have this article rotated to someone else (not coyote) and have it changed to show solid arguments not flawed opinions people heard everywhere else?
It is best for the industry the MMO throne remains an dusty empty seat never to be filled.
Hey retards, WoW is the reason that games like SWTOR are developped in the first place. Be a little grateful that WoW opened the market to mainstream.
+1
Believe me, I had fun in WoW, however not to sound like a hypocrit I sometimes wish WoW was never created. As stated in a earlier post, I was happy on what we have. And as you stated, there was still was a veriety of other mmorpg's out there to try.
SOE was reigning with their Everquest and Star Wars Galaxies mmorpg and you had Mythic conqueroring the 3 faction system with Realm vs Realm wars. Ultima Online was considered even old school then, but had a huge niche crowd of PvP followers for fantasy as Eve Online grabbed the niche crowd in outer space.
Asherons Call also was way before it times, especially the mechanics they had in the games and Anarchy Online was a nice twisted Sci Fi game, which to had a 3 factions (Omni, Clan and Neutral).
I could go on and talk about other games I loved, like Shadowbane and Earth and Beyond, but going to cut this short before I start to ramble. All the games I mentioned had bugs and bad laucnhes, however to me it was a pretty magical time to be a geek mmorpg gamer.
The year 2004 changed mmorpg's as we seem them today, anything prior to 2004 to me is considered old school mmorpgs. Unfortunately WoW set the bar in 2005 on what MMO should be about to the masses.
This, a thousand times this.
I'm confused as to why this is devils advocate? Pretty much only the small community on this site thinks WoW is so horrible and ruined mmorpgs.
People comlain about wow being easy now? That might be so... But that argument is not valid the way 99% of people here tend to make it. Automated LFG features did not ruin anything. "Difficult" in an MMO should not be judged by how difficult or how much time it takes to find a damn group. You should be able to find a group almost instantly for anything you want to do. It's a game. The difficulty should come in trying to complete said task.
It's not fun to spend hours with nothing to do because you can't get a group together for one reason or another. It's fun to be challenged with difficult content that requires a team of players to work well together.
I don't blame Blizzard or WoW for the state that games are now days. I blame the developers of those games. They release games too early, full of bugs, lack of content, looking to sell alot of boxes using an IP, then selling the game or making it f2p later. One of the main reasons for WoW's popularity is the fact that Blizzard went out on a limb and bought primetime advertising spots. I've only ever seen 2 other MMO commercials other than WoW. Rift and Global Agenda. Neither really were in primetime like WoW was, but theys till advertised.
Common Sense.....Isn't
lol
Edgar F Greenwood