CSM is not there to actively participate on game development, CSM has no responsibility for game development either, thus it does not pertain to CSM member to criticize how CCP is developing their game. You might not agree with CCP decisions but you still aid them the best you can because CSM is about constructive feedback, not a political agenda.
CSM is no more than feedback channel but Mittani only use the acquired position to promote his own self. CCP give good deal of trust to CSM and Mittani is only taking said trust and slaps CCP back with it.
The CSM was created after a DEV corruption incident was revealed (a DEV giving items to a selected alliance). They exist to guard against such occurances of CCP affecting the game balance in a negative way. What Mittani is doing is full in compliance with that status. Just the corruption is on a much higher level than a single developer now.
I am actualy waiting how this turns out. CCP lost my trust with Incarna. Even the emergency summit was not much of an improvement. They need to turn around and make EVE development what it was before. We were debating new game mechanics/content before each expansion, playtesting on Sisi etc. With Incarna all of that was absent.
I am watching and evaluating. So far, Mittani has my full support.
Originally posted by haplo602 The CSM was created after a DEV corruption incident was revealed (a DEV giving items to a selected alliance). They exist to guard against such occurances
No, they do not, you are mistaking CSM for Internal Affairs dpt.
As it was before? You are clearly delusional as CCP never 'discussed' their expansions in advance nor Sisi public testing was much affecting the release.
Such approach would be very inefficient, preposterous and wasting.
I agree with haplo, the whole CSM thing was a PR stunt to apease an outraged playerbase after the players discovered CCP had been aware of one of thier DEVs cheating and had swept it under the carpet 8 months prior. When accused or questioned in the past they would always reiterate thier pledge to fire any member of staff caught cheating ad nauseaum and swear on a stack of bibles that there was no such corruption.
In response they created the Internal affairs division where they have an employee monitor his mates accounts in EVE to make sure they're not being naughty. They also set up the CSM as a council elected by players to speak for the players and communicate and concerns the players may have with EVE.
Well at the time anyone with an IQ above that of a glass of water realised that the internal affairs and CSM were BS publicity exercise to get CCP out of a tight spot (I'm still suprised by the amount that believed and believe they were being genuine). Now it's come to bite CCP in the behind and they're gonna ignore the CSM (they always did anyway) until they shut up, then atempt to apease them and if that doesn't work put some good old fashioned yes men in charge of it and use the CSM like they did in the past to feed players BS. Either that or do as the playerbase requires and cut out the cash shop and apologise.
Having said all that CCP is still a better company than most developers as atleast they do play thier own game unlike most out there. It's just that the guys at the top of got horny for micro transaction as they get aroused looking at earnings projections, which is no different from anyother developer out there it's just that EVE was always held to a higher standard. It was seen as a game made by gamers who improved it for the betterment of the game and its playerbase rather than just to expand the suits paycheck and get that new Ferrari.
I don't fault them for cheating as much as I fault them for covering it up. I don't fault them for micro transaction as much as I fault them for covering it up and its true nature. I guess everyone gets bored of playing the same MMORPG at some point even the people that made it themselves and bean counting becomes more important than the customer and why they first made it. I feel EVE has come to that point now.
Just my opinion nothing more.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
The CSM was created after a DEV corruption incident was revealed (a DEV giving items to a selected alliance). They exist to guard against such occurances of CCP affecting the game balance in a negative way. What Mittani is doing is full in compliance with that status. Just the corruption is on a much higher level than a single developer now.
I am actualy waiting how this turns out. CCP lost my trust with Incarna. Even the emergency summit was not much of an improvement. They need to turn around and make EVE development what it was before. We were debating new game mechanics/content before each expansion, playtesting on Sisi etc. With Incarna all of that was absent.
I am watching and evaluating. So far, Mittani has my full support.
Glad you still have optimism left. Imho CCP already decided ( 20 months ago actually) to turn EVE into maintenance mode , cutting back development team severely. Incarna was proof of that. Captain quarters are created by using technology that is developed mainly for World of Darkness , NeX store is to gather more money + check pricing model for microtransactions that will be used in Dust and World of Darkness as current idea is to make them microtransaction f2p/ freemium games and not p2p ones.
After Incarna have not yielded expected results , as it was supposed to give a nice boost in subscriptions , we have some promises of reuse ideas that were partially designed but not implemented in Dominion expansion.
Imho short term priority for CCP is Dust , but biggest priority is World of Darkness. EVE imho will just get bare minimum resources to keep it on surface , becasue that is only source of revenue for CCP.
Anyway judging from number of devs assigned to certain projects and from financial report of CCP , they don't have enough resources to develop EVE at speed from few years ago or at at any rate that would satisfy consumers that have been waiting for any substantial content /changes for 21 months AND keep developing Dust and WoD. Not to mentin they have alot of fixing and non-fullfilled features from old expansions to fix as well.
They won't drop Dust or WoD , to relocate their resources to EVE forget about that. They won't slow down their development either as they see those projects as company future.
I alredy just turned my interest to other games and non-gaming activities and stopped playing. 21 months of Eve beign in 'frozen' mode + that many features , were half-implemented and abandoned by CCP is enough for me. I left EVE.
If you still have faith for EvE 'rebirth' good for you. Hope you're right and not me.
I agree with haplo, the whole CSM thing was a PR stunt to apease an outraged playerbase after the players discovered CCP had been aware of one of thier DEVs cheating and had swept it under the carpet 8 months prior. When accused or questioned in the past they would always reiterate thier pledge to fire any member of staff caught cheating ad nauseaum and swear on a stack of bibles that there was no such corruption.
In response they created the Internal affairs division where they have an employee monitor his mates accounts in EVE to make sure they're not being naughty. They also set up the CSM as a council elected by players to speak for the players and communicate and concerns the players may have with EVE.
Well at the time anyone with an IQ above that of a glass of water realised that the internal affairs and CSM were BS publicity exercise to get CCP out of a tight spot (I'm still suprised by the amount that believed and believe they were being genuine). Now it's come to bite CCP in the behind and they're gonna ignore the CSM (they always did anyway) until they shut up, then atempt to apease them and if that doesn't work put some good old fashioned yes men in charge of it and use the CSM like they did in the past to feed players BS. Either that or do as the playerbase requires and cut out the cash shop and apologise.
Having said all that CCP is still a better company than most developers as atleast they do play thier own game unlike most out there. It's just that the guys at the top of got horny for micro transaction as they get aroused looking at earnings projections, which is no different from anyother developer out there it's just that EVE was always held to a higher standard. It was seen as a game made by gamers who improved it for the betterment of the game and its playerbase rather than just to expand the suits paycheck and get that new Ferrari.
I don't fault them for cheating as much as I fault them for covering it up. I don't fault them for micro transaction as much as I fault them for covering it up and its true nature. I guess everyone gets bored of playing the same MMORPG at some point even the people that made it themselves and bean counting becomes more important than the customer and why they first made it. I feel EVE has come to that point now.
Just my opinion nothing more.
The CSM might have started and still is considered as a 'PR' tool internally in CCP. However, the outside world doesn't think so and the PR speak CCP gave when CSM start is now coming back to haunt them.
Let me explain, when CSM started, it was touted as a 'big' thing with elections and Hilmar (CEO of CCP) saying all sorts of stuff to the media.
This set the perception that CSM speaks for the EVE playerbase and has direct contact/ influence with EVE developers.
So if a media quotes a CSM, to the outside world, it is considered something that the EVE playerbase wants.
Therein lies the 'power'. It doesn't matter if CCP doesn't think so, the media/public does (Since CCP said so!) and since CCP doesn't want to seem like they lied, they have to walk this tight rope of 'we listen to the CSM' to the media and reality.
The news article is getting traction because the perception that CSM actually represents the playerbase by the media is making this an easy news.
'EVE playerbase wants this!' and the media can point to the CSM. No 'omg! 1000+ posts in the suggestion forum!' nonsense.
An easy identifiable figure that is saying things about a game that CCP has to acknowledge externally, actually means something.
If CCP ignores the CSM, is this company going back on their word? That's a news story.
In essence, CSM might only be a 'Title' that has no 'formal' power but we are seeing how much even an empty title can be used effectively.
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
The CSM was created after a DEV corruption incident was revealed (a DEV giving items to a selected alliance). They exist to guard against such occurances
No, they do not, you are mistaking CSM for Internal Affairs dpt. http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Internal_affairs As it was before? You are clearly delusional as CCP never 'discussed' their expansions in advance nor Sisi public testing was much affecting the release. Such approach would be very inefficient, preposterous and wasting.
It's not me who did the mistake, it's CCP. I was there when the CSM where first proposed and brought to reality. I remember it first hand. Since t20 (the ofending Dev) just got a different job instead of being fired from the company, the playerbase revolted. The outcome was the CSM. A council to basicaly audit CCP conduct towards the playerbase. CSM did transform to something different over time, but the original intent was to watch over internal affairs in case another t20 incident happend and to provide clear and direct information to both sides.
EDIT:
Please name any other MMO game that let's you playtest things on a public test server before they hit production. I do remember testing at least 3 expansions of new features on Sisi (once I became interested in that). Sure not all of them were available for testing, but quite a lot was. The process did not work 100% (or even 50%), but we were still able to submit valid feedback. Like CSM, CCP has the choice to ignore that feedback or make some use of it. We as players CANNOT force them to do either. But we can draw conclusions from much more information than other games players are able to.
The CSM was created after a DEV corruption incident was revealed (a DEV giving items to a selected alliance). They exist to guard against such occurances of CCP affecting the game balance in a negative way. What Mittani is doing is full in compliance with that status. Just the corruption is on a much higher level than a single developer now. I am actualy waiting how this turns out. CCP lost my trust with Incarna. Even the emergency summit was not much of an improvement. They need to turn around and make EVE development what it was before. We were debating new game mechanics/content before each expansion, playtesting on Sisi etc. With Incarna all of that was absent. I am watching and evaluating. So far, Mittani has my full support.
Glad you still have optimism left. ...
I left 2 years ago when I realised there was nothing for me left after 5 years of playing the game (safe alliance politics which I do not enjoy). Unfortunately EVE is a unique game at the moment (as it ever was) and I could not find the same enjoyment in other MMOs. I tried to get back 2 weeks before Incarna, however I did not subscribe when I saw what has become of the game (and CCP). Maybe I want to return just for the memories I have, nothing but nostalgia. So I am waiting and watching.
At the moment my new home is the planet Nia. And it seems that I will stay there unles the game tanks hard or CCP does a U-turn regarding current EVE development practices.
Goons were always special. They brought a wind of change into the stale and stinking universe that was the BoB vs RED Alliance status quo. Now it seems they are kicking on an entirely new level. I take this as the ultimate sandbox story telling we have in the industry :-)
Originally posted by haplo602 It's not me who did the mistake, it's CCP. I was there when the CSM where first proposed and brought to reality. I remember it first hand. Since t20 (the ofending Dev) just got a different job instead of being fired from the company, the playerbase revolted. The outcome was the CSM. A council to basicaly audit CCP conduct towards the playerbase. CSM did transform to something different over time, but the original intent was to watch over internal affairs in case another t20 incident happend and to provide clear and direct information to both sides.
Only if CCP was as stupid as you are delusioned...
Just to name some from games I played recently - PoTBS, AoC, both have public test servers where you can experience new patches.
It's not me who did the mistake, it's CCP. I was there when the CSM where first proposed and brought to reality. I remember it first hand. Since t20 (the ofending Dev) just got a different job instead of being fired from the company, the playerbase revolted. The outcome was the CSM. A council to basicaly audit CCP conduct towards the playerbase. CSM did transform to something different over time, but the original intent was to watch over internal affairs in case another t20 incident happend and to provide clear and direct information to both sides.
Only if CCP was as stupid as you are delusioned...
Just to name some from games I played recently - PoTBS, AoC, both have public test servers where you can experience new patches.
CCP was not stupid. However they did not think things through into much detail and future. They allowed CSM to stay and even grow because it was a good PR point. Now they are paying for it.
I left 2 years ago when I realised there was nothing for me left after 5 years of playing the game (safe alliance politics which I do not enjoy). Unfortunately EVE is a unique game at the moment (as it ever was) and I could not find the same enjoyment in other MMOs. I tried to get back 2 weeks before Incarna, however I did not subscribe when I saw what has become of the game (and CCP). Maybe I want to return just for the memories I have, nothing but nostalgia. So I am waiting and watching.
At the moment my new home is the planet Nia. And it seems that I will stay there unles the game tanks hard or CCP does a U-turn regarding current EVE development practices.
Goons were always special. They brought a wind of change into the stale and stinking universe that was the BoB vs RED Alliance status quo. Now it seems they are kicking on an entirely new level. I take this as the ultimate sandbox story telling we have in the industry :-)
Yeah. Eve is unique that's true. That uniqueness would keep me playing for a long time , much longer than other games. Becasue of that I would also be ready to accept higher subscription fee than other games , I would not have problem to pay for example 20$ / month.
BUT
there is a certain limit , no matter how unique is game I will not accept things like NeX, PLEX and just not putting enough work on a game leaving it in a stale state for such long times , not to mention worsening CCP attitute to game itself and community. Relesing half-baked features and then not working at them as promised. Last but not least there is no chance imho that it will get better in next few years.
I left Eve long ago. Had willingness to come back , I tried even , but I just cannot stomach things I said in previus sentences. I am not burn out at Eve itself , I mean type of gameplay it provide , especially after such long break , but there are some things I cannot accept and just EvE beign unique cannot make up for it , becasue those things make this uniqueness less appealing.
Originally posted by haplo602 Btw why delusioned? You out of arguments ?
No, that is an argument actually.
1) If CSM was in any major way to affect game development or company internal matters, they would have to be stupid to allow it as it would be stupid to give someone with no qualification and responsibility such role.
Thus they are either stupid or you delusional.
CSM is and always has been a feedback channel only, no more no less.
2) They are not paying for anything, just one jerk is misusing the trust and responsibility that was given to him...
just one jerk is misusing the trust and responsibility that was given to him...
Sorry, I haven’t read every post and I have no interest in an argument on the subject.
But I think it's clear that many people think that jerk is CCP. Also, I think that many of the players in this game have a great deal of power to effect change in this game, both for better and for worse.
It would be really incredible if they could work together and address some problems EVE is having, because I think these are really gaming problems that are bigger than EVE.
I don’t think it will happen, but it’s clearly a possibility at this point.
I'm an eve player and I do care whether my subscription money is spent developing Eve, and more specifically flying in space. I'm not just playing for the enjoyment that I get from the game now, but also with the expectation of better things to come. Myself, and my friends that I talk to about this, feel that we spend time not just playing and having fun, but building our corps, our characters and our infrastructure for the future as well. To say that it is none of my business where CCP allocates their resources is an oversimplification. Yes I shouldn't get a say in how much their employees are paid, or how much their canteen should be subsidised (etc), but to expect that subscription money is not only spent on keeping the game running but also improving it is entirely my business. And CCP should be thankful that people are voicing a concern rather than just unsubbing.
It also feels like you have a personal grudge against Mittani. I feel that in this circumstance he is entirely right to voice his opinion. I say this because it is not just his opinion that he is voicing. I'm not saying it is everyone's opinion, but it is more than just his. I can't say what support he has on this, but within my group of friends I'd say all but 3 were highly concerned about the direction the game is taking. The role of the CSM is to provide feedback from players, and much of that feedback from my experience is exactly what he is saying; we need more focus on flying in space.
So, nothing was done for 21 months and just now they release a dev-blog rehasing the cut content as 'new' by saying 'Hey, this is what MIGHT be in this winter's expansion!'.
Do players really have such a short term memory? It was barely a year ago that CCP said they wouldn't be adding much to eve, or focusing on the base game for some time, at least until incarna is complete. WHy are we to be surprised when we knew this is what we had to look forward to all along?
TBH I'm thinking when they made that decision/announcement, they had already realized their plans were going to change the dynamics of EVE, as well as potentially upset many players. Which with that, it makes sense why they'd give so little focus to content or other additions to EVE's base game. Might as well wait and see what you're left with before taking the game in new directions.
Not arguing with your overall premise here, just relaying the thoughts that came to mind after reading this post.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Originally posted by qazymanAlso, I think that many of the players in this game have a great deal of power to effect change in this game, both for better and for worse.
It would be really incredible if they could work together and address some problems EVE is having, because I think these are really gaming problems that are bigger than EVE.
It would be incredibly wrong because in fact you would legitimized devs siding with certain players and player groups.
Gaming experience isn't developer experience, just because you are 'good' at game does not make you a good developer - another reason why gamers should not talk into a game development.
CCP is pretty much unchanged, the only ones that change are the butthurt - and in this case it is the minority that is also vocal.
Originally posted by WulfynYes I shouldn't get a say in how much their employees are paid, or how much their canteen should be subsidised (etc), but to expect that subscription money is not only spent on keeping the game running but also improving it is entirely my business.
Following your own logic, your employer should have right to enter your house anytime to check what you are doing because it is entirely his business how you spend money he is paying you.
Again, it is none of your concern how they spend their money. You are not ordering a service from CCP, you pay for access to the game as it is - take or leave. It isn't oversimplified, it is precisely that.
Originally posted by DistopiaDo players really have such a short term memory?
Also, I think that many of the players in this game have a great deal of power to effect change in this game, both for better and for worse.
It would be really incredible if they could work together and address some problems EVE is having, because I think these are really gaming problems that are bigger than EVE.
It would be incredibly wrong because in fact you would legitimized devs siding with certain players and player groups.
Gaming experience isn't developer experience, just because you are 'good' at game does not make you a good developer - another reason why gamers should not talk into a game development.
CCP is pretty much unchanged, the only ones that change are the butthurt - and in this case it is the minority that is also vocal.
Originally posted by Wulfyn
Yes I shouldn't get a say in how much their employees are paid, or how much their canteen should be subsidised (etc), but to expect that subscription money is not only spent on keeping the game running but also improving it is entirely my business.
Following your own logic, your employer should have right to enter your house anytime to check what you are doing because it is entirely his business how you spend money he is paying you.
Again, it is none of your concern how they spend their money. You are not ordering a service from CCP, you pay for access to the game as it is - take or leave. It isn't oversimplified, it is precisely that.
Trying to dismiss the CSM who are suppose to represent the playerbase (according to CCP) by saying 'butthurt' makes little sense. I get that you don't like the CSM making negative noises about CCP but why?
If the CSM thinks the playerbase has this negative perception is it wrong?
The playerbase voted and it was a democratic election so surely the CSM can speak for the playerbase?
If anyone thinks the CSM is not saying the right things, great, vote for another player next time.
That's the process right? Or do you want to undermine those people who voted?
It is perfectly logical provide feedback to CCP. If I pay for something and I don't like it, why shouldn't I raise it to the company that made it?
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Yes I shouldn't get a say in how much their employees are paid, or how much their canteen should be subsidised (etc), but to expect that subscription money is not only spent on keeping the game running but also improving it is entirely my business.
Following your own logic, your employer should have right to enter your house anytime to check what you are doing because it is entirely his business how you spend money he is paying you.
Again, it is none of your concern how they spend their money. You are not ordering a service from CCP, you pay for access to the game as it is - take or leave. It isn't oversimplified, it is precisely that.
Wait what? Its nothing like an employer checking what someone spends their wages on, CCP is a service provider and if a customer feels the service is bad value because the company isn't in investing in that service anymore its very much the customers concern.
Wulfyn is right, obviously the minutiae of CCPs finances are no concern to players but the value for money aspect is right at the core of the relationship between service provider and customer.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush, Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light, Company of Heroes II.
No, that is an argument actually. 1) If CSM was in any major way to affect game development or company internal matters, they would have to be stupid to allow it as it would be stupid to give someone with no qualification and responsibility such role.
Thus they are either stupid or you delusional.
CSM is and always has been a feedback channel only, no more no less.
2) They are not paying for anything, just one jerk is misusing the trust and responsibility that was given to him...
OMG you are the delusional one ...
I never stated CSM had any power towards CCP. They are there to feed information both ways. From CCP to players in case there are major issues (see the Failcarna summit) and from the players to CCP (the usual forum suggestions and Assembly hall things).
They simply have a more direct access to CCP than regular players. That's all they have in addition to regular players.
1) If CSM was in any major way to affect game development or company internal matters, they would have to be stupid to allow it as it would be stupid to give someone with no qualification and responsibility such role.
Thus they are either stupid or you delusional.
CSM is and always has been a feedback channel only, no more no less.
2) They are not paying for anything, just one jerk is misusing the trust and responsibility that was given to him...
OMG you are the delusional one ...
I never stated CSM had any power towards CCP. They are there to feed information both ways. From CCP to players in case there are major issues (see the Failcarna summit) and from the players to CCP (the usual forum suggestions and Assembly hall things).
They simply have a more direct access to CCP than regular players. That's all they have in addition to regular players.
If one looks at the situation happening right now, CSM actually holds tremendous power over CCP.
Mainly because the media/public believes CSM does.
It doesn't matter if CSM formally doesn't, the media / public perception is different (because CCP can't communicate well and bungled their PR when CSM was introduced) and will continue to report that 'the elected representive of the playerbase is calling CCP out'.
Since CCP can't publicly back out now (I suspect admitting that they lied is going to make the situation even worse) they have to play this PR game. And lets face it, CCP is awful at communication and PR in general.
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
If one looks at the situation happening right now, CSM actually holds tremendous power over CCP.
Mainly because the media/public believes CSM does.
It doesn't matter if CSM formally doesn't, the media / public perception is different (because CCP can't communicate well and bungled their PR when CSM was introduced) and will continue to report that 'the elected representive of the playerbase is calling CCP out'.
Since CCP can't publicly back out now (I suspect admitting that they lied is going to make the situation even worse) they have to play this PR game. And lets face it, CCP is awful at communication and PR in general.
So much bunk, CSM is first, last and always, a CCP gimmick.
They put their foot in their mouth by getting caught lying or whatever, they pull out the old no worries we will give these, your very own player representatives, a free vacation to Norway to " discuss" it with us and get back to you.
As to what the head "Goon" says, who cares? Goons are goons, they exist to get attention.
The whole CSM thing is a manipulation tool by CCP of the player base. The old forum/player class representative, started long ago, writ large.
The time CCP thinks it is not useful any longer is the time it will go away.
The botton line is this. Microtransactions for Eve does not fit into the player culture because the way Eve has been designed from start to present. Eve gamers are PC. Mac, and Linux users, they feel shafted by Dust 514.
If one looks at the situation happening right now, CSM actually holds tremendous power over CCP.
Mainly because the media/public believes CSM does.
It doesn't matter if CSM formally doesn't, the media / public perception is different (because CCP can't communicate well and bungled their PR when CSM was introduced) and will continue to report that 'the elected representive of the playerbase is calling CCP out'.
Since CCP can't publicly back out now (I suspect admitting that they lied is going to make the situation even worse) they have to play this PR game. And lets face it, CCP is awful at communication and PR in general.
So much bunk, CSM is first, last and always, a CCP gimmick.
They put their foot in their mouth by getting caught lying or whatever, they pull out the old no worries we will give these, your very own player representatives, a free vacation to Norway to " discuss" it with us and get back to you.
As to what the head "Goon" says, who cares? Goons are goons, they exist to get attention.
The whole CSM thing is a manipulation tool by CCP of the player base. The old forum/player class representative, started long ago, writ large.
The time CCP thinks it is not useful any longer is the time it will go away.
Heya!
I can see that you are a new player in EVE-online, that's totally fine.
I'd suggest you read up on how the CSM came to be and how TEAM BFF was created as well.
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Comments
The CSM was created after a DEV corruption incident was revealed (a DEV giving items to a selected alliance). They exist to guard against such occurances of CCP affecting the game balance in a negative way. What Mittani is doing is full in compliance with that status. Just the corruption is on a much higher level than a single developer now.
I am actualy waiting how this turns out. CCP lost my trust with Incarna. Even the emergency summit was not much of an improvement. They need to turn around and make EVE development what it was before. We were debating new game mechanics/content before each expansion, playtesting on Sisi etc. With Incarna all of that was absent.
I am watching and evaluating. So far, Mittani has my full support.
No, they do not, you are mistaking CSM for Internal Affairs dpt.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Internal_affairs
As it was before? You are clearly delusional as CCP never 'discussed' their expansions in advance nor Sisi public testing was much affecting the release.
Such approach would be very inefficient, preposterous and wasting.
I agree with haplo, the whole CSM thing was a PR stunt to apease an outraged playerbase after the players discovered CCP had been aware of one of thier DEVs cheating and had swept it under the carpet 8 months prior. When accused or questioned in the past they would always reiterate thier pledge to fire any member of staff caught cheating ad nauseaum and swear on a stack of bibles that there was no such corruption.
In response they created the Internal affairs division where they have an employee monitor his mates accounts in EVE to make sure they're not being naughty. They also set up the CSM as a council elected by players to speak for the players and communicate and concerns the players may have with EVE.
Well at the time anyone with an IQ above that of a glass of water realised that the internal affairs and CSM were BS publicity exercise to get CCP out of a tight spot (I'm still suprised by the amount that believed and believe they were being genuine). Now it's come to bite CCP in the behind and they're gonna ignore the CSM (they always did anyway) until they shut up, then atempt to apease them and if that doesn't work put some good old fashioned yes men in charge of it and use the CSM like they did in the past to feed players BS. Either that or do as the playerbase requires and cut out the cash shop and apologise.
Having said all that CCP is still a better company than most developers as atleast they do play thier own game unlike most out there. It's just that the guys at the top of got horny for micro transaction as they get aroused looking at earnings projections, which is no different from anyother developer out there it's just that EVE was always held to a higher standard. It was seen as a game made by gamers who improved it for the betterment of the game and its playerbase rather than just to expand the suits paycheck and get that new Ferrari.
I don't fault them for cheating as much as I fault them for covering it up. I don't fault them for micro transaction as much as I fault them for covering it up and its true nature. I guess everyone gets bored of playing the same MMORPG at some point even the people that made it themselves and bean counting becomes more important than the customer and why they first made it. I feel EVE has come to that point now.
Just my opinion nothing more.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
Glad you still have optimism left. Imho CCP already decided ( 20 months ago actually) to turn EVE into maintenance mode , cutting back development team severely. Incarna was proof of that. Captain quarters are created by using technology that is developed mainly for World of Darkness , NeX store is to gather more money + check pricing model for microtransactions that will be used in Dust and World of Darkness as current idea is to make them microtransaction f2p/ freemium games and not p2p ones.
After Incarna have not yielded expected results , as it was supposed to give a nice boost in subscriptions , we have some promises of reuse ideas that were partially designed but not implemented in Dominion expansion.
Imho short term priority for CCP is Dust , but biggest priority is World of Darkness. EVE imho will just get bare minimum resources to keep it on surface , becasue that is only source of revenue for CCP.
Anyway judging from number of devs assigned to certain projects and from financial report of CCP , they don't have enough resources to develop EVE at speed from few years ago or at at any rate that would satisfy consumers that have been waiting for any substantial content /changes for 21 months AND keep developing Dust and WoD. Not to mentin they have alot of fixing and non-fullfilled features from old expansions to fix as well.
They won't drop Dust or WoD , to relocate their resources to EVE forget about that. They won't slow down their development either as they see those projects as company future.
I alredy just turned my interest to other games and non-gaming activities and stopped playing. 21 months of Eve beign in 'frozen' mode + that many features , were half-implemented and abandoned by CCP is enough for me. I left EVE.
If you still have faith for EvE 'rebirth' good for you. Hope you're right and not me.
The CSM might have started and still is considered as a 'PR' tool internally in CCP. However, the outside world doesn't think so and the PR speak CCP gave when CSM start is now coming back to haunt them.
Let me explain, when CSM started, it was touted as a 'big' thing with elections and Hilmar (CEO of CCP) saying all sorts of stuff to the media.
This set the perception that CSM speaks for the EVE playerbase and has direct contact/ influence with EVE developers.
So if a media quotes a CSM, to the outside world, it is considered something that the EVE playerbase wants.
Therein lies the 'power'. It doesn't matter if CCP doesn't think so, the media/public does (Since CCP said so!) and since CCP doesn't want to seem like they lied, they have to walk this tight rope of 'we listen to the CSM' to the media and reality.
The news article is getting traction because the perception that CSM actually represents the playerbase by the media is making this an easy news.
'EVE playerbase wants this!' and the media can point to the CSM. No 'omg! 1000+ posts in the suggestion forum!' nonsense.
An easy identifiable figure that is saying things about a game that CCP has to acknowledge externally, actually means something.
If CCP ignores the CSM, is this company going back on their word? That's a news story.
In essence, CSM might only be a 'Title' that has no 'formal' power but we are seeing how much even an empty title can be used effectively.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
It's not me who did the mistake, it's CCP. I was there when the CSM where first proposed and brought to reality. I remember it first hand.
Since t20 (the ofending Dev) just got a different job instead of being fired from the company, the playerbase revolted. The outcome was the CSM. A council to basicaly audit CCP conduct towards the playerbase.
CSM did transform to something different over time, but the original intent was to watch over internal affairs in case another t20 incident happend and to provide clear and direct information to both sides.
EDIT:
Please name any other MMO game that let's you playtest things on a public test server before they hit production. I do remember testing at least 3 expansions of new features on Sisi (once I became interested in that). Sure not all of them were available for testing, but quite a lot was. The process did not work 100% (or even 50%), but we were still able to submit valid feedback. Like CSM, CCP has the choice to ignore that feedback or make some use of it. We as players CANNOT force them to do either. But we can draw conclusions from much more information than other games players are able to.
I left 2 years ago when I realised there was nothing for me left after 5 years of playing the game (safe alliance politics which I do not enjoy). Unfortunately EVE is a unique game at the moment (as it ever was) and I could not find the same enjoyment in other MMOs. I tried to get back 2 weeks before Incarna, however I did not subscribe when I saw what has become of the game (and CCP). Maybe I want to return just for the memories I have, nothing but nostalgia. So I am waiting and watching.
At the moment my new home is the planet Nia. And it seems that I will stay there unles the game tanks hard or CCP does a U-turn regarding current EVE development practices.
Goons were always special. They brought a wind of change into the stale and stinking universe that was the BoB vs RED Alliance status quo. Now it seems they are kicking on an entirely new level. I take this as the ultimate sandbox story telling we have in the industry :-)
Only if CCP was as stupid as you are delusioned...
Just to name some from games I played recently - PoTBS, AoC, both have public test servers where you can experience new patches.
CCP was not stupid. However they did not think things through into much detail and future. They allowed CSM to stay and even grow because it was a good PR point. Now they are paying for it.
Btw why delusioned? You out of arguments ?
Yeah. Eve is unique that's true. That uniqueness would keep me playing for a long time , much longer than other games. Becasue of that I would also be ready to accept higher subscription fee than other games , I would not have problem to pay for example 20$ / month.
BUT
there is a certain limit , no matter how unique is game I will not accept things like NeX, PLEX and just not putting enough work on a game leaving it in a stale state for such long times , not to mention worsening CCP attitute to game itself and community. Relesing half-baked features and then not working at them as promised. Last but not least there is no chance imho that it will get better in next few years.
I left Eve long ago. Had willingness to come back , I tried even , but I just cannot stomach things I said in previus sentences. I am not burn out at Eve itself , I mean type of gameplay it provide , especially after such long break , but there are some things I cannot accept and just EvE beign unique cannot make up for it , becasue those things make this uniqueness less appealing.
No, that is an argument actually.
1) If CSM was in any major way to affect game development or company internal matters, they would have to be stupid to allow it as it would be stupid to give someone with no qualification and responsibility such role.
Thus they are either stupid or you delusional.
CSM is and always has been a feedback channel only, no more no less.
2) They are not paying for anything, just one jerk is misusing the trust and responsibility that was given to him...
Sorry, I haven’t read every post and I have no interest in an argument on the subject.
But I think it's clear that many people think that jerk is CCP. Also, I think that many of the players in this game have a great deal of power to effect change in this game, both for better and for worse.
It would be really incredible if they could work together and address some problems EVE is having, because I think these are really gaming problems that are bigger than EVE.
I don’t think it will happen, but it’s clearly a possibility at this point.
Gdemami,
I'm an eve player and I do care whether my subscription money is spent developing Eve, and more specifically flying in space. I'm not just playing for the enjoyment that I get from the game now, but also with the expectation of better things to come. Myself, and my friends that I talk to about this, feel that we spend time not just playing and having fun, but building our corps, our characters and our infrastructure for the future as well. To say that it is none of my business where CCP allocates their resources is an oversimplification. Yes I shouldn't get a say in how much their employees are paid, or how much their canteen should be subsidised (etc), but to expect that subscription money is not only spent on keeping the game running but also improving it is entirely my business. And CCP should be thankful that people are voicing a concern rather than just unsubbing.
It also feels like you have a personal grudge against Mittani. I feel that in this circumstance he is entirely right to voice his opinion. I say this because it is not just his opinion that he is voicing. I'm not saying it is everyone's opinion, but it is more than just his. I can't say what support he has on this, but within my group of friends I'd say all but 3 were highly concerned about the direction the game is taking. The role of the CSM is to provide feedback from players, and much of that feedback from my experience is exactly what he is saying; we need more focus on flying in space.
www.ygworlds.net
Do players really have such a short term memory? It was barely a year ago that CCP said they wouldn't be adding much to eve, or focusing on the base game for some time, at least until incarna is complete. WHy are we to be surprised when we knew this is what we had to look forward to all along?
TBH I'm thinking when they made that decision/announcement, they had already realized their plans were going to change the dynamics of EVE, as well as potentially upset many players. Which with that, it makes sense why they'd give so little focus to content or other additions to EVE's base game. Might as well wait and see what you're left with before taking the game in new directions.
Not arguing with your overall premise here, just relaying the thoughts that came to mind after reading this post.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
It would be incredibly wrong because in fact you would legitimized devs siding with certain players and player groups.
Gaming experience isn't developer experience, just because you are 'good' at game does not make you a good developer - another reason why gamers should not talk into a game development.
CCP is pretty much unchanged, the only ones that change are the butthurt - and in this case it is the minority that is also vocal.
Following your own logic, your employer should have right to enter your house anytime to check what you are doing because it is entirely his business how you spend money he is paying you.
Again, it is none of your concern how they spend their money. You are not ordering a service from CCP, you pay for access to the game as it is - take or leave. It isn't oversimplified, it is precisely that.
Heh, not only short but also selective!
Trying to dismiss the CSM who are suppose to represent the playerbase (according to CCP) by saying 'butthurt' makes little sense. I get that you don't like the CSM making negative noises about CCP but why?
If the CSM thinks the playerbase has this negative perception is it wrong?
The playerbase voted and it was a democratic election so surely the CSM can speak for the playerbase?
If anyone thinks the CSM is not saying the right things, great, vote for another player next time.
That's the process right? Or do you want to undermine those people who voted?
It is perfectly logical provide feedback to CCP. If I pay for something and I don't like it, why shouldn't I raise it to the company that made it?
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Wait what? Its nothing like an employer checking what someone spends their wages on, CCP is a service provider and if a customer feels the service is bad value because the company isn't in investing in that service anymore its very much the customers concern.
Wulfyn is right, obviously the minutiae of CCPs finances are no concern to players but the value for money aspect is right at the core of the relationship between service provider and customer.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush,
Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light,
Company of Heroes II.
Exactly.
www.ygworlds.net
For those who are interested, another update on how this whole thing went down.
I do find it funny that other 'mainstream' sites have picked this up while this site (supposed MMO centric one) hasn't.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=7417&find=unread
http://www.kugutsumen.com/showthread.php?9644-Goonswarm-Federation-The-Last-Bastion-Of-True-Gooniness&p=295116&viewfull=1#post295116
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
OMG you are the delusional one ...
I never stated CSM had any power towards CCP. They are there to feed information both ways. From CCP to players in case there are major issues (see the Failcarna summit) and from the players to CCP (the usual forum suggestions and Assembly hall things).
They simply have a more direct access to CCP than regular players. That's all they have in addition to regular players.
If one looks at the situation happening right now, CSM actually holds tremendous power over CCP.
Mainly because the media/public believes CSM does.
It doesn't matter if CSM formally doesn't, the media / public perception is different (because CCP can't communicate well and bungled their PR when CSM was introduced) and will continue to report that 'the elected representive of the playerbase is calling CCP out'.
Since CCP can't publicly back out now (I suspect admitting that they lied is going to make the situation even worse) they have to play this PR game. And lets face it, CCP is awful at communication and PR in general.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Thanks for sharing this one. Just what I was looking for.
Keep on rockin'!
So much bunk, CSM is first, last and always, a CCP gimmick.
They put their foot in their mouth by getting caught lying or whatever, they pull out the old no worries we will give these, your very own player representatives, a free vacation to Norway to " discuss" it with us and get back to you.
As to what the head "Goon" says, who cares? Goons are goons, they exist to get attention.
The whole CSM thing is a manipulation tool by CCP of the player base. The old forum/player class representative, started long ago, writ large.
The time CCP thinks it is not useful any longer is the time it will go away.
The botton line is this. Microtransactions for Eve does not fit into the player culture because the way Eve has been designed from start to present. Eve gamers are PC. Mac, and Linux users, they feel shafted by Dust 514.
Heya!
I can see that you are a new player in EVE-online, that's totally fine.
I'd suggest you read up on how the CSM came to be and how TEAM BFF was created as well.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.