Chainmail is better vs piercing weapons, where as platemail is better vs blunt force weapons. Both around about the same with regards to slashing weapons.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't a lot of platemail wearers also wear a layer of chainmail underneath for the very fact that neither was entirely better than the other?
What? Piercing weapons are specifically made to go through chainmail, that is why most 10th century and later swords have a sharp point for piercing. Piercing weapons will go right through a chainmail, but arrows often get stuck in the gambusang under it (the chainmail is useless though but since you more or less must have padding under it it helps in RPG settings unless someone have a crossbow or longbow).
Yes, you are wrong. there were a few 14th century armors that had both but they were very heavy and not that useful. You had padding under both armors.
Lamellar, especially in metal was not seen widely in places like England, France or Italy. It tends to be more associated with central or eastern Europe when talking about European armor.
Northern Europe. Sweden. It was quite common throughout history. It's much easier to make a series of overlapped plates from iron and attach them to a cloth or leather garment rather than an entire fitted breastplate. It was done with hardened leather and wood as well.
Here is a nice picture of a replika from a 1361 armor. It was found in Visby, Sweden but it were probably a Danish mercenary that wore it, most of those were from Germany, what is now Holland and Scotland.
There are some controversy about this armor because it is hard to see the difference between it and leather armor when you look at drawings from the time..
Lol, yeah. For some reasons are ancient armors not something most people discuss, most people base their knowledge on movies such as Ivanhoe and Kingdom of heaven.
Ye sadly most people have no clue about almost anything, they just stick to misconceptions, look at all the nonsense we have all the time about armor and fencing in mmo forums.
But then again it would be very hard for a dev team to have some historical cohesion, plate was there from roman to middle age, but the technology and access to metal ,and what quality metal made the plate or the mail the most popular armor. And i don't think a dev tem want to bother with any of those aspects. It's like archery in mmo, or swords and polearms evolutions. Why in europe we never had mounted archery when we knew perfectly well since the invasion of Rome that it was just a super powerful strategy? But ye i always was shocked about how mmo throw in bow designs into their game, and its clear they have no fucking clue, which is sad because it would be an awesome way for example to build their crafting systems. But who care about how bows were builds?
The only game that have a slight historical and realistic aspect is Mount&Blade imo, and this probably explain why they have the best combat system, because they probably have some true knowledge about middle age combat where most developer, i'm sure, have no clue at all about what is going on. And you know its fantasy after all, why even talk about realism in our game, i mean its totally ridiculous, realism in a fantasy game! LOL
In games, it is about the level of abstraction you want to represent. Do you want to have a complex, historically accurate(or at least internally consistent) scheme for your armor? Will that require a similiarly complex weapons setup? Does that mean you have to go and set up hit-by-location schemes? Do you abstract armor as a number between one and five and use familiar names in -very- loose applicability?
Metal armor tended to be found in percentages related to proximity to metal deposits. The further away you were the less metal armor you found. Though as trade routes ramped up, things moved great distances. There was a style of Indian metal shield that was traded throughout the Islamic world, sold in markets as far away as Morroco.
People have already mentioned things like armor that had to be fitted and took a considerable bit of time to produce. As opposed to armor that would sorta fit someone within a range of sizes.
This could be continued into a limitless amount of detail. In the game design, you have to figure out how much complexity you want to allocate to each aspect. Knowledge (and interests) of the game designers play here too: in early D&D you have simplistic armor set up, but due to GGygax's personal obsession with polearms, you can find a host of stats for voulge-guisarmes and Bohemian Earspoons. And that's before you even get into the idea of 'class'. Why can't a rogue wear a breastplate? Why can't monks have vambraces? Etc.
It's all about the level of abstraction you are willing to put into these various subsystems.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Ye sadly most people have no clue about almost anything, they just stick to misconceptions, look at all the nonsense we have all the time about armor and fencing in mmo forums.
But then again it would be very hard for a dev team to have some historical cohesion, plate was there from roman to middle age, but the technology and access to metal ,and what quality metal made the plate or the mail the most popular armor. And i don't think a dev tem want to bother with any of those aspects. It's like archery in mmo, or swords and polearms evolutions. Why in europe we never had mounted archery when we knew perfectly well since the invasion of Rome that it was just a super powerful strategy? But ye i always was shocked about how mmo throw in bow designs into their game, and its clear they have no fucking clue, which is sad because it would be an awesome way for example to build their crafting systems. But who care about how bows were builds?
The only game that have a slight historical and realistic aspect is Mount&Blade imo, and this probably explain why they have the best combat system, because they probably have some true knowledge about middle age combat where most developer, i'm sure, have no clue at all about what is going on. And you know its fantasy after all, why even talk about realism in our game, i mean its totally ridiculous, realism in a fantasy game! LOL
I don't think it would be that hard to go down to the nearest ARMA or SCA club, talk a bit with the guys there and maybe even trying some of the stuff on. It would be simple background research, the kind that most movie makers do.
Making a modern computer game is a lot more similar to a movie today than it was earlier so a little background reaserch is not too much to ask for.
As for realism in a fantasy, just look on HBOs "Game of thrones". It is fantasy, but yet all the weapons and armors are realistic in it, it is part of what make it so good.
I also wish that the devs woth bother to visit an existing 13th or 14th century city to get ideas on how to make the cities in their game look more like places were people actually lives. MMO cities rarely feels even a little alive.
Lol, yeah. For some reasons are ancient armors not something most people discuss, most people base their knowledge on movies such as Ivanhoe and Kingdom of heaven.
Though one thing I do know for sure, is that the introduction of firearms rendered heavy armors virtually pointless as they became more accurate, quicker to reload, and generally easier to maintain and use.
Which if you apply to games again, makes no sense in a game like WoW where wearers of heavier armor are still largely protected from gunpowder based ballistics... as firearms apparently have no more penetrating power than bows in said games.
In games, it is about the level of abstraction you want to represent. Do you want to have a complex, historically accurate(or at least internally consistent) scheme for your armor? Will that require a similiarly complex weapons setup? Does that mean you have to go and set up hit-by-location schemes? Do you abstract armor as a number between one and five and use familiar names in -very- loose applicability?
Metal armor tended to be found in percentages related to proximity to metal deposits. The further away you were the less metal armor you found. Though as trade routes ramped up, things moved great distances. There was a style of Indian metal shield that was traded throughout the Islamic world, sold in markets as far away as Morroco.
People have already mentioned things like armor that had to be fitted and took a considerable bit of time to produce. As opposed to armor that would sorta fit someone within a range of sizes.
This could be continued into a limitless amount of detail. In the game design, you have to figure out how much complexity you want to allocate to each aspect. Knowledge (and interests) of the game designers play here too: in early D&D you have simplistic armor set up, but due to GGygax's personal obsession with polearms, you can find a host of stats for voulge-guisarmes and Bohemian Earspoons. And that's before you even get into the idea of 'class'. Why can't a rogue wear a breastplate? Why can't monks have vambraces? Etc.
It's all about the level of abstraction you are willing to put into these various subsystems.
To me that sounds like the background to a great and fun crafting mechanics.
Though one thing I do know for sure, is that the introduction of firearms rendered heavy armors virtually pointless as they became more accurate, quicker to reload, and generally easier to maintain and use.
Which if you apply to games again, makes no sense in a game like WoW where wearers of heavier armor are still largely protected from gunpowder based ballistics... and apparently have no more penetrating power than bows.
Well, not initially. A plate from early 16th century still stopped a pistol shot and a musket bullet if it hit from the right angle. But somewhere around 1550 the gunpowder and guns just became too good.
If you assume that Wows gunpowder weapons are very early it makes sense, there were guns around in Germany already in the 1330s but it took a lot longer before plate armor became obsolete.
It is a big difference between a early gun and a later one, and black powder technology evolved as well as armors and blades.
Regardless of how easy the armour is to move in, surely they did get one thing right, which is that it offers less protection? In most games the weight of anything really doesn't matter (horse in a backpack anyone?), but the amount of protection offered by a set of armour does. To this extent, it seems to make sense to me.
Furthermore, it's a convention in a game! People run around in most MMOs throwing fireballs at dragons. Armour surely isn't the biggest problem with reality?
I'm 30% Rock, 10% Roll, 50% Nerd and 10% Troll. Axis of Awesome - Moderately Rock and Roll
Actually that does sound like a good way to abstract things for crafting. The easily available armor from most NPCs is generic, fits-three-sizes armor, while player crafting armor would have much more detail. Resizing cool captured armor for the player. Distinctive design and insignia application.
If you are going to go into detail on it, make it a player specialty, that adds depth to the experiance.....
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Chainmails are in opposite to what most MMO devs seems to think actually both heavier and harder to move in than a plate mail. In have been proved again and again (if you want to see an example, see when they test them against each other in “The deadliest warrior – Jeanne Dárc Vs Wilhelm the Conqueror from a few weeks back).
Chainmail and platemail represent 2 different technologies and generally are chainmail primitive and offers a lot less protection. Platemail is a evolution of it that offers greatly improved protection and better movement. I own a chainmail myself and have tried out plate as well.
And yet in MMOs chainmail is a lighter armor often used by rogues or swashbucklers side by side with warriors using plate mail. It makes no sense whatsoever.
Sure, the Romans had both a breastplate and chainmail armors but the Roman breastplate were a lot more primitive than the 15- early 16th century plate armors that MMO plates are based on.
Why do some classes have acess to chain armor but not plate? It just makes no sense.
Loke666,
Are you talking articulated plate armor or plate-mail? If you are talking articulated plate, then you are absolutely correct. If you are talking plate-mail then that may be a different story. Remember that early plate was basicaly just a full chainmail suit with a few additional pieces of plate strapped on over it in strategic locations. That definately would have been both heavier and more restrictive then just chain. Continual advances in armor technology gradualy turned it into the articulated plate represented in the late middle ages (i.e., your Jeanne Darc armor on deadliest warrior)...but it took quite some time for it to actualy get to that point....and the earlier styles (say 1100's-1200's or so) definately were bulkier and heavier if more protective then chain.
In games, it is about the level of abstraction you want to represent. Do you want to have a complex, historically accurate(or at least internally consistent) scheme for your armor? Will that require a similiarly complex weapons setup? Does that mean you have to go and set up hit-by-location schemes? Do you abstract armor as a number between one and five and use familiar names in -very- loose applicability?
Metal armor tended to be found in percentages related to proximity to metal deposits. The further away you were the less metal armor you found. Though as trade routes ramped up, things moved great distances. There was a style of Indian metal shield that was traded throughout the Islamic world, sold in markets as far away as Morroco.
People have already mentioned things like armor that had to be fitted and took a considerable bit of time to produce. As opposed to armor that would sorta fit someone within a range of sizes.
This could be continued into a continuing amount of detail. In the game design, you have to figure out how much complexity you want to allocate to each aspect. Knowledge (and interests) of the game designers play here too: in early D&D you have simplistic armor set up, but due to GGygax's personal obsession with polearms, you can find a host of stats for voulge-guisarmes and Bohemian Earspoons. And that's before you even get into the idea of 'class'. Why can't a rogue wear a breastplate? Why can't monks have vambraces? Etc.
It's all about the level of abstraction you are willing to put into these various subsystems.
100% agree.
And there are actually 2 seperate aspects to this:
1) Level of complexity
2) Level of realism
I prefer the focus be on the appropriate level of complexity rather than a strict adherence to realism. For instance if it were completely realistic you would die and the game would be over LOL. Realism is easily forgiven as it is a fantasy world. Who says in that fantasy world plate is lighter than chainmail? There is no reason why the fantasy world should care about the real world. Maybe in that fantasy world the chemical properties of the metal allow for very light chainmail somehow but when formed into a plate it requires metals that are heavier. I mean you can easily come up with something to explain it.
I think the important thing is just to come up with a fun system which requires choice/strategy and that is internally consistent based on the rules that they set up.
Also, if the truth is everybody wore plate (or a one poster said in reality people didn't wear any armour) what is the fun/complexity in that? So every single player runs around in the same gear so gear and choices regarding it are meaningless? Count me out in that game, unless the complexity is transferred to another aspect of the game in a fun way.
I think the real issue is that in most MMOs there is no difference between armours other than a single protection value and class restrictions. At least in DDO they have slightly different characteristics such as piercing/slashing/bludeoning and in EVE online they have similar type tradeoffs.
Give me a fun, complex, and internally consistent game and I could care less about realism to our world.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
Regardless of how easy the armour is to move in, surely they did get one thing right, which is that it offers less protection? In most games the weight of anything really doesn't matter (horse in a backpack anyone?), but the amount of protection offered by a set of armour does. To this extent, it seems to make sense to me.
Furthermore, it's a convention in a game! People run around in most MMOs throwing fireballs at dragons. Armour surely isn't the biggest problem with reality?
Internal consistency helps immersion. If things are just random...it tends to make things feel a bit cheesy...to me, anyway.
Throwing fireballs is not internally unrealistic, as long as the magic system used isn't either.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Regardless of how easy the armour is to move in, surely they did get one thing right, which is that it offers less protection? In most games the weight of anything really doesn't matter (horse in a backpack anyone?), but the amount of protection offered by a set of armour does. To this extent, it seems to make sense to me.
Furthermore, it's a convention in a game! People run around in most MMOs throwing fireballs at dragons. Armour surely isn't the biggest problem with reality?
Yeah, but the question was why I can wear chainmail but not plate?
And why have armors based on real ones at all in the game if you don't get even the basics right? Why don't you have dragon hides and stuff like that instead of chainmail then?
note that fantasy universes are not necessary historical. most have their own history that spans thousand of years, without having noticable technological progress. it could be quite possible that what is called mail in such universe is not what real world historian would call mail.
cloth/leather/mail/plate simply represents gradation of protection that is worn (none/light/medium/heavy). leather could actually be light brigandine, mail could be half-plate and plate is full plate.
Are you talking articulated plate armor or plate-mail? If you are talking articulated plate, then you are absolutely correct. If you are talking plate-mail then that may be a different story. Remember that early plate was basicaly just a full chainmail suit with a few additional pieces of plate strapped on over it in strategic locations. That definately would have been both heavier and more restrictive then just chain. Continual advances in armor technology gradualy turned it into the articulated plate represented in the late middle ages (i.e., your Jeanne Darc armor on deadliest warrior)...but it took quite some time for it to actualy get to that point....and the earlier styles (say 1100's-1200's or so) definately were bulkier and heavier if more protective then chain.
Look on how the MMO plaqtes look.. A chain armor with a few plates on is still considered a chain armor in any game I played.
MMO plate armor looks usually15th or even early 16th century to me.
I was sarcastic Loke666, especially when you hear all those comment about realism in fantasy games. I would just love a bit more research and cohesion in our mmos. I would also love to have guilds the way they were in middle age. I think Uo too tryed to have some inspirtation from real life stuff, the bard skills from Orpheus myth, the Gm medium with spirit speak skill and many other aspects. I just dislike to play a shaman class that feel nothing even close to what a shaman is suppose to triger in your imagination. This certainly doesn't help the feeling of shallowness in our mmos, that lack of real life history inspiration. You don't need to copy history, but at least get some inspiration from it.
note that fantasy universes are not necessary historical. most have their own history that spans thousand of years, without having noticable technological progress. it could be quite possible that what is called mail in such universe is not what real world historian would call mail.
cloth/leather/mail/plate simply represents gradation of protection that is worn (none/light/medium/heavy). leather could actually be light brigandine, mail could be half-plate and plate is full plate.
But why does it look like real chainmail then? Ok, not always and rarely on female armors but mostly for males.
Regardless of how easy the armour is to move in, surely they did get one thing right, which is that it offers less protection? In most games the weight of anything really doesn't matter (horse in a backpack anyone?), but the amount of protection offered by a set of armour does. To this extent, it seems to make sense to me.
Furthermore, it's a convention in a game! People run around in most MMOs throwing fireballs at dragons. Armour surely isn't the biggest problem with reality?
Yeah, but the question was why I can wear chainmail but not plate?
And why have armors based on real ones at all in the game if you don't get even the basics right? Why don't you have dragon hides and stuff like that instead of chainmail then?
Most RPGs do have dragonhide. MMO developers are just lazy! Artificial restrictions in armour class are needed to prevent a mage wandering round in full plate and being nigh on unkillable. This worked better in RPGs and PnP because you have a cumulative failure chance for spells and abilities. Keeping it abitrary and using four (wrong, I grant you) classes of armour make it easier to balance the game.
I'm not saying it's right, but I guess those are the reasons.
I'm 30% Rock, 10% Roll, 50% Nerd and 10% Troll. Axis of Awesome - Moderately Rock and Roll
I was sarcastic Loke666, especially when you hear all those comment about realism in fantasy games. I would just love a bit more research and cohesion in our mmos. I would also love to have guilds the way they were in middle age. I think Uo too tryed to have some inspirtation from real life stuff, the bard skills from Orpheus myth, the Gm medium with spirit speak skill and many other aspects. I just dislike to play a shaman class that feel nothing even close to what a shaman is suppose to triger in your imagination. This certainly doesn't help the feeling of shallowness in our mmos, that lack of real life history inspiration. You don't need to copy history, but at least get some inspiration from it.
Though one thing I do know for sure, is that the introduction of firearms rendered heavy armors virtually pointless as they became more accurate, quicker to reload, and generally easier to maintain and use.
Which if you apply to games again, makes no sense in a game like WoW where wearers of heavier armor are still largely protected from gunpowder based ballistics... and apparently have no more penetrating power than bows.
Well, not initially. A plate from early 16th century still stopped a pistol shot and a musket bullet if it hit from the right angle. But somewhere around 1550 the gunpowder and guns just became too good.
If you assume that Wows gunpowder weapons are very early it makes sense, there were guns around in Germany already in the 1330s but it took a lot longer before plate armor became obsolete.
It is a big difference between a early gun and a later one, and black powder technology evolved as well as armors and blades.
For sure, but WoW is a pretty messed up example I guess, considering they had tanks, planes, mortars, etc. If you look at their advancement in related technologies, their comprehension and sophistication of combustion looks to be sufficient enough to make some fairly powerful firearms. Which is the angle I was coming from.
It really depends on the specific game you're looking at. Then again, the inclusion of magic really flips the whole discussion upside down considering it could be used to explain away that bigger bulkier armor is by default better, because they just cram more magically imbued metal into thicker and bulkier armor than they would with chainmail.
Anyone who says chainmail is louder then leather has never worn leather pants. I could hear a rogue wearing leather pants coming from a block away, no matter how sneaky he was.
Comments
What? Piercing weapons are specifically made to go through chainmail, that is why most 10th century and later swords have a sharp point for piercing. Piercing weapons will go right through a chainmail, but arrows often get stuck in the gambusang under it (the chainmail is useless though but since you more or less must have padding under it it helps in RPG settings unless someone have a crossbow or longbow).
Yes, you are wrong. there were a few 14th century armors that had both but they were very heavy and not that useful. You had padding under both armors.
I had a feeling I was mixing them up, lol.
Here is a nice picture of a replika from a 1361 armor. It was found in Visby, Sweden but it were probably a Danish mercenary that wore it, most of those were from Germany, what is now Holland and Scotland.
There are some controversy about this armor because it is hard to see the difference between it and leather armor when you look at drawings from the time..
Lol, yeah. For some reasons are ancient armors not something most people discuss, most people base their knowledge on movies such as Ivanhoe and Kingdom of heaven.
Ye sadly most people have no clue about almost anything, they just stick to misconceptions, look at all the nonsense we have all the time about armor and fencing in mmo forums.
But then again it would be very hard for a dev team to have some historical cohesion, plate was there from roman to middle age, but the technology and access to metal ,and what quality metal made the plate or the mail the most popular armor. And i don't think a dev tem want to bother with any of those aspects. It's like archery in mmo, or swords and polearms evolutions. Why in europe we never had mounted archery when we knew perfectly well since the invasion of Rome that it was just a super powerful strategy? But ye i always was shocked about how mmo throw in bow designs into their game, and its clear they have no fucking clue, which is sad because it would be an awesome way for example to build their crafting systems. But who care about how bows were builds?
The only game that have a slight historical and realistic aspect is Mount&Blade imo, and this probably explain why they have the best combat system, because they probably have some true knowledge about middle age combat where most developer, i'm sure, have no clue at all about what is going on. And you know its fantasy after all, why even talk about realism in our game, i mean its totally ridiculous, realism in a fantasy game! LOL
In games, it is about the level of abstraction you want to represent. Do you want to have a complex, historically accurate(or at least internally consistent) scheme for your armor? Will that require a similiarly complex weapons setup? Does that mean you have to go and set up hit-by-location schemes? Do you abstract armor as a number between one and five and use familiar names in -very- loose applicability?
Metal armor tended to be found in percentages related to proximity to metal deposits. The further away you were the less metal armor you found. Though as trade routes ramped up, things moved great distances. There was a style of Indian metal shield that was traded throughout the Islamic world, sold in markets as far away as Morroco.
People have already mentioned things like armor that had to be fitted and took a considerable bit of time to produce. As opposed to armor that would sorta fit someone within a range of sizes.
This could be continued into a limitless amount of detail. In the game design, you have to figure out how much complexity you want to allocate to each aspect. Knowledge (and interests) of the game designers play here too: in early D&D you have simplistic armor set up, but due to GGygax's personal obsession with polearms, you can find a host of stats for voulge-guisarmes and Bohemian Earspoons. And that's before you even get into the idea of 'class'. Why can't a rogue wear a breastplate? Why can't monks have vambraces? Etc.
It's all about the level of abstraction you are willing to put into these various subsystems.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
I don't think it would be that hard to go down to the nearest ARMA or SCA club, talk a bit with the guys there and maybe even trying some of the stuff on. It would be simple background research, the kind that most movie makers do.
Making a modern computer game is a lot more similar to a movie today than it was earlier so a little background reaserch is not too much to ask for.
As for realism in a fantasy, just look on HBOs "Game of thrones". It is fantasy, but yet all the weapons and armors are realistic in it, it is part of what make it so good.
I also wish that the devs woth bother to visit an existing 13th or 14th century city to get ideas on how to make the cities in their game look more like places were people actually lives. MMO cities rarely feels even a little alive.
Though one thing I do know for sure, is that the introduction of firearms rendered heavy armors virtually pointless as they became more accurate, quicker to reload, and generally easier to maintain and use.
Which if you apply to games again, makes no sense in a game like WoW where wearers of heavier armor are still largely protected from gunpowder based ballistics... as firearms apparently have no more penetrating power than bows in said games.
To me that sounds like the background to a great and fun crafting mechanics.
Well, not initially. A plate from early 16th century still stopped a pistol shot and a musket bullet if it hit from the right angle. But somewhere around 1550 the gunpowder and guns just became too good.
If you assume that Wows gunpowder weapons are very early it makes sense, there were guns around in Germany already in the 1330s but it took a lot longer before plate armor became obsolete.
It is a big difference between a early gun and a later one, and black powder technology evolved as well as armors and blades.
Regardless of how easy the armour is to move in, surely they did get one thing right, which is that it offers less protection? In most games the weight of anything really doesn't matter (horse in a backpack anyone?), but the amount of protection offered by a set of armour does. To this extent, it seems to make sense to me.
Furthermore, it's a convention in a game! People run around in most MMOs throwing fireballs at dragons. Armour surely isn't the biggest problem with reality?
I'm 30% Rock, 10% Roll, 50% Nerd and 10% Troll.
Axis of Awesome - Moderately Rock and Roll
Actually that does sound like a good way to abstract things for crafting. The easily available armor from most NPCs is generic, fits-three-sizes armor, while player crafting armor would have much more detail. Resizing cool captured armor for the player. Distinctive design and insignia application.
If you are going to go into detail on it, make it a player specialty, that adds depth to the experiance.....
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Loke666,
Are you talking articulated plate armor or plate-mail? If you are talking articulated plate, then you are absolutely correct. If you are talking plate-mail then that may be a different story. Remember that early plate was basicaly just a full chainmail suit with a few additional pieces of plate strapped on over it in strategic locations. That definately would have been both heavier and more restrictive then just chain. Continual advances in armor technology gradualy turned it into the articulated plate represented in the late middle ages (i.e., your Jeanne Darc armor on deadliest warrior)...but it took quite some time for it to actualy get to that point....and the earlier styles (say 1100's-1200's or so) definately were bulkier and heavier if more protective then chain.
100% agree.
And there are actually 2 seperate aspects to this:
1) Level of complexity
2) Level of realism
I prefer the focus be on the appropriate level of complexity rather than a strict adherence to realism. For instance if it were completely realistic you would die and the game would be over LOL. Realism is easily forgiven as it is a fantasy world. Who says in that fantasy world plate is lighter than chainmail? There is no reason why the fantasy world should care about the real world. Maybe in that fantasy world the chemical properties of the metal allow for very light chainmail somehow but when formed into a plate it requires metals that are heavier. I mean you can easily come up with something to explain it.
I think the important thing is just to come up with a fun system which requires choice/strategy and that is internally consistent based on the rules that they set up.
Also, if the truth is everybody wore plate (or a one poster said in reality people didn't wear any armour) what is the fun/complexity in that? So every single player runs around in the same gear so gear and choices regarding it are meaningless? Count me out in that game, unless the complexity is transferred to another aspect of the game in a fun way.
I think the real issue is that in most MMOs there is no difference between armours other than a single protection value and class restrictions. At least in DDO they have slightly different characteristics such as piercing/slashing/bludeoning and in EVE online they have similar type tradeoffs.
Give me a fun, complex, and internally consistent game and I could care less about realism to our world.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
Internal consistency helps immersion. If things are just random...it tends to make things feel a bit cheesy...to me, anyway.
Throwing fireballs is not internally unrealistic, as long as the magic system used isn't either.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Yeah, but the question was why I can wear chainmail but not plate?
And why have armors based on real ones at all in the game if you don't get even the basics right? Why don't you have dragon hides and stuff like that instead of chainmail then?
note that fantasy universes are not necessary historical. most have their own history that spans thousand of years, without having noticable technological progress. it could be quite possible that what is called mail in such universe is not what real world historian would call mail.
cloth/leather/mail/plate simply represents gradation of protection that is worn (none/light/medium/heavy). leather could actually be light brigandine, mail could be half-plate and plate is full plate.
Look on how the MMO plaqtes look.. A chain armor with a few plates on is still considered a chain armor in any game I played.
MMO plate armor looks usually15th or even early 16th century to me.
I was sarcastic Loke666, especially when you hear all those comment about realism in fantasy games. I would just love a bit more research and cohesion in our mmos. I would also love to have guilds the way they were in middle age. I think Uo too tryed to have some inspirtation from real life stuff, the bard skills from Orpheus myth, the Gm medium with spirit speak skill and many other aspects. I just dislike to play a shaman class that feel nothing even close to what a shaman is suppose to triger in your imagination. This certainly doesn't help the feeling of shallowness in our mmos, that lack of real life history inspiration. You don't need to copy history, but at least get some inspiration from it.
But why does it look like real chainmail then? Ok, not always and rarely on female armors but mostly for males.
Most RPGs do have dragonhide. MMO developers are just lazy! Artificial restrictions in armour class are needed to prevent a mage wandering round in full plate and being nigh on unkillable. This worked better in RPGs and PnP because you have a cumulative failure chance for spells and abilities. Keeping it abitrary and using four (wrong, I grant you) classes of armour make it easier to balance the game.
I'm not saying it's right, but I guess those are the reasons.
I'm 30% Rock, 10% Roll, 50% Nerd and 10% Troll.
Axis of Awesome - Moderately Rock and Roll
Sorry, sometimes it is hard to tell.
For sure, but WoW is a pretty messed up example I guess, considering they had tanks, planes, mortars, etc. If you look at their advancement in related technologies, their comprehension and sophistication of combustion looks to be sufficient enough to make some fairly powerful firearms. Which is the angle I was coming from.
It really depends on the specific game you're looking at. Then again, the inclusion of magic really flips the whole discussion upside down considering it could be used to explain away that bigger bulkier armor is by default better, because they just cram more magically imbued metal into thicker and bulkier armor than they would with chainmail.
I completely agree with this!
I'm 30% Rock, 10% Roll, 50% Nerd and 10% Troll.
Axis of Awesome - Moderately Rock and Roll
Anyone who says chainmail is louder then leather has never worn leather pants. I could hear a rogue wearing leather pants coming from a block away, no matter how sneaky he was.