Super hard 25 man raids without ridiculously OP rewards? Oh I can see it now....
"I killed the elder dragons and all I got was this lousy t-shirt that just looks better than my other t-shirt"
What does this have to do with GW2?
Sure, there are some tough open world bosses as part of the story but they are hardly 25 man raids.
And the point of playing through the main story is the same reason that you read a book or watch a movie: You want to just hear and be part of a good story. You don't get loot from reading a book, do you?
The point of playing a game is to have fun. If the only thing you think is fun is getting more stuff then I pity you.
I blame christmas, it turned a spiritual thing into something that just is about getting stuff.
It doesn't have anything to do with GW2 (as the devs have described it). My line in quotations was how I imagined raiders would react if they were given raids and then NOT given elite gear that made them better than everyone else. I was kind of answering the question posed by another poster "would people still raid if not for the promise of elite gear?"
In other words, it was not MY opinion, but how I think raiders would react to not getting any "shiny stuff" from a hard instanced battle. I'm actually glad there's nothing like that in GW2.
But yeah, I agree with you on Christmas. But that's another subject.
Boy you are PROVING you're a raider with that cock sure attitude of yours. Everything we've all said....you're validating with your arrogant determination to fight for a stance that ArenaNet has already PROVEN you wrong on.
BTW, "end game content" doesn't require "raiding." There is plenty of end game content that requires 5 man groups. Just because ANet has changed this "rule" on you, you're all butt hurt. Seems to me that you're the one that needs to look elsewhere for a game to play. I'm sure you'll be very happy in SWTOR, which I will avoid like the plague....to avoid raiders and their disgusting attitudes, for one.
Why is it that i have to be arrogant or have a disgusting attitude because I have an opinion.
Arent forums designed to have civilized debates, to share opinions and give information.
My apologies if my opinions dont meet at the same place in the road as your, but they are just that opinions.
I thank you for your opinions and please keep your attacks to yourself, they are in no way furthering the thread.
Honestly, when you first entered this thread responding to a post I made attacking raids, you said it was probably because I was "left out" or because I was a "keyboard turner". Your comments are still there, so I think it's a bit hypocritical of you to warn others about personal attacks now.
On one hand, I think your devotion to raids is admirable, but when people put down the system, they're not putting you down, and when they become irritated by claims you have inside information that goes against everything ANet has told us, well can you blame them?
Now, back on topic - raiders who actually enjoy raiding (and don't just feel forced to do it because it's the only endgame content they're provided with) are a very small playerbase. ANet can't please everyone.
I do wish games would make the leveling process slower and make the game about the leveling process rather than everyone sitting at max level and complaining about an "endgame" . When you make a game take more than a couple weeks to max lvl you then have the "grinding" cry babies. Zomgz I didn't get to max lvl in a week!!1! What a Korean GRINDFEST!
I understand that everyone hates raiders, however, I do see a valid issue with the endgame. I don't see so much an issue with the raiding aspect as the no gear grinding aspect. I've heard some people say there is no way to advance your character other than cosmetic items and titles. If they hand out the best gear to everyone with little effort...what will we do? Hang out and explore? We will need to be pleased with pvp and titles/cosmetic items.
How does a game with no way to make your character better keep people around (other than pvp)?
If you want to be "better" than others then you should learn how to play our class well. If you only want to raid for hours on end to get a shot at that piece of über gear that will make you "better" than others, then move along, not going to happen. Being better will come from your real skill, not from not having a life and getting gear that most other players simply cannot get due to RL time restrictions.
If you can't even imagine being any good on a level playing field, then you have some work cut out for you.
Huh? I wasn't talking about PvP. PvP is probably what they intend people to play at the lvl cap. I just don't understand the point of a PvEr playing at the lvl cap if you cannot build your character past titles and cosmetic items. I thought the point of MMO's was to build a character?
Utimately I don't think they care if the PvErs stay interested as there is no sub fee. They already have their box sales.
Boy you are PROVING you're a raider with that cock sure attitude of yours. Everything we've all said....you're validating with your arrogant determination to fight for a stance that ArenaNet has already PROVEN you wrong on.
BTW, "end game content" doesn't require "raiding." There is plenty of end game content that requires 5 man groups. Just because ANet has changed this "rule" on you, you're all butt hurt. Seems to me that you're the one that needs to look elsewhere for a game to play. I'm sure you'll be very happy in SWTOR, which I will avoid like the plague....to avoid raiders and their disgusting attitudes, for one.
Why is it that i have to be arrogant or have a disgusting attitude because I have an opinion.
Arent forums designed to have civilized debates, to share opinions and give information.
My apologies if my opinions dont meet at the same place in the road as your, but they are just that opinions.
I thank you for your opinions and please keep your attacks to yourself, they are in no way furthering the thread.
Honestly, when you first entered this thread responding to a post I made attacking raids, you said it was probably because I was "left out" or because I was a "keyboard turner". Your comments are still there, so I think it's a bit hypocritical of you to warn others about personal attacks now.
On one hand, I think your devotion to raids is admirable, but when people put down the system, they're not putting you down, and when they become irritated by claims you have inside information that goes against everything ANet has told us, well can you blame them?
Now, back on topic - raiders who actually enjoy raiding (and don't just feel forced to do it because it's the only endgame content they're provided with) are a very small playerbase. ANet can't please everyone.
I do wish games would make the leveling process slower and make the game about the leveling process rather than everyone sitting at max level and complaining about an "endgame" . When you make a game take more than a couple weeks to max lvl you then have the "grinding" cry babies. Zomgz I didn't get to max lvl in a week!!1! What a Korean GRINDFEST!
I understand that everyone hates raiders, however, I do see a valid issue with the endgame. I don't see so much an issue with the raiding aspect as the no gear grinding aspect. I've heard some people say there is no way to advance your character other than cosmetic items and titles. If they hand out the best gear to everyone with little effort...what will we do? Hang out and explore? We will need to be pleased with pvp and titles/cosmetic items.
How does a game with no way to make your character better keep people around (other than pvp)?
If you want to be "better" than others then you should learn how to play our class well. If you only want to raid for hours on end to get a shot at that piece of über gear that will make you "better" than others, then move along, not going to happen. Being better will come from your real skill, not from not having a life and getting gear that most other players simply cannot get due to RL time restrictions.
If you can't even imagine being any good on a level playing field, then you have some work cut out for you.
Huh? I wasn't talking about PvP. PvP is probably what they intend people to play at the lvl cap. I just don't understand the point of a PvEr playing at the lvl cap if you cannot build your character past titles and cosmetic items. I thought the point of MMO's was to build a character?
Utimately I don't think they care if the PvErs stay interested as there is no sub fee. They already have their box sales.
true but some people do care for pve and raids ^_^ so they need to add both keep both players happy let them have there pvp and let thm have there pve...... just saying because not every one seems to like pvp and pve stuff so there a balance like the force :O
I want all of you nay sayers to remember this thread when they announce raiding. Please. I want to be able to post the " I told you so"...
If all GW2 was going to have was repetitive 5man dungeons and pvp.. then its doomed.
In a couple months time everyone will have every possible piece of gear out of dungeons.. its a proven fact that players will bash their heads into a wall to get something they want.. so I can see players chain running instances to get it..
Once they get it.. then what.. Rift had dynamic events and they got boring as shit after the first 20 or so of them. PvP is fun and all to an extent.
Mark my words.. in the very.. very.. near future Anet will release the info on Raiding and all of those who are arguing now.. will find a way to spin it where you arent wrong..
No MMO in todays market can afford to leave out any of the player demographics..and believe it or not.. there are a lot of players like myself who live to raid..
I look forward to serving you some Crow and bet your ass.. it will be cold..
Thank You
GW2 won't have JUST 5 man dungeons and PvP. Lol. Rift didn't have Dynamic Events. Rift had rifts which were not as sophisticated as Dynamic Events. They were too simple. That's why people got tired of them. Rifts were a nice idea, but had horrible execution by its developer.
As for raiding, I don't give a crap about it. If ArenaNet wants to put it in, than whatever. But they won't let you raid for the highest level gear you can only get by raiding. What I find hilarious though is that ArenaNet isn't trying to make people play this game every minute of their life, and you're trying to treat this game and its developer just like any other MMO that does. People might get tired of it and that's okay with ArenaNet. Because one day you might load up the game again and realize all the new stuff that's been added. Then you might buy the expansion.
I've said this a million times before that ArenaNet is near invincible and the only thing that can hold them back is themselves. They have to work for people's money unlike developers who just add a monthly fee so they don't have to worry about money and don't have to worry about getting content out as quickly. Fact of the matter is, ArenaNet isn't competing with other MMO developers for your time, but other MMO developers ARE competing with ArenaNet for your time. That makes them almost untouchable in that regard because they don't have to aknowledge anyone but themselves. That makes them work harder on the game. Other MMO developers will crap their pants when their subscriptions start falling. I know a lot of people like to say that you can play both a subscription game and GW2, but what if GW2 is incredible? What's going to happen? Why keep paying 15 dollars a month for an MMO that doesn't hold a candle to a game that you can buy once and play forever? This kind of mindset will be matter more than people think.
Understand that competition is near irrelevant for ArenaNet at this point. They have no specific reason to put in raiding. Because it's not just MMO players that will be playing this game. ArenaNet is reaching out to EVERYONE, except for those select few who like to raid. Sorry to say buddy, but you and your friends are irrelevant to the grand scheme. You might not like it, but that's something you'll have to deal with. If ArenaNet does put in raiding, it's only because they're nice enough to give certain people what they want. Guaranteed you won't get special gear that has effects beyond what it looks like though. I can bet everything on it.
GW2 won't have JUST 5 man dungeons and PvP. Lol. Rift didn't have Dynamic Events. Rift had rifts which were not as sophisticated as Dynamic Events. They were too simple. That's why people got tired of them. Rifts were a nice idea, but had horrible execution by its developer.
I don't think it was just that rifts were too simple, but Rift lacks any sort of compelling endgame progression, so no matter how much more interesting rifts could be, they're still pretty pointless as an endgame mechanic.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Not sure of your style of play, but WoW just isn't popular for it's "endgame" content. Many who play the game rarely, if ever get to that. Casual gamers, (working adults for example) enjoy the questing, the dungeons, the guilds, and a friend base.
There are many demographics who play that game for the many aspects of it. If everyone only wanted endgame content, questing would be so dumbed down and streamlined it'd end up like Aion: a mindless grind to level cap.
Debating endgame of a game that ISN"T RELEASED yet is pointless and endless. It seems as if you're looking for someone to agree with your fanboi attitude of not liking this unreleased game because it isn't YOUR game. Relax. When the game arrives, either buy it or not. Attempting to tear it apart before it's done only makes you appear juvenile.
Originally posted by Chastayne If everyone only wanted endgame content, questing would be so dumbed down and streamlined it'd end up like Aion: a mindless grind to level cap.
How more dumbed down could you possibly make questing in WoW. I had a guildmate who let his 4yr old son do the quests for him.. You set it to auto accept and then an arrow pops up and tells you were to go..you kill or pick up whatever quest wants and an arrow pops up to send you back.. seriously, how much easier could that be?
I know everyone assumes because they like gaming a certain way, that everyone should. I know Im guilty of that. It takes all types of play style for a game to have the kind of success that WoW has had.. Most devs these days just want a small piece of the pie to pay the bills and be profitable..
Just because I'm a gamer doesn't mean I drive a Honda.
GW2 won't have JUST 5 man dungeons and PvP. Lol. Rift didn't have Dynamic Events. Rift had rifts which were not as sophisticated as Dynamic Events. They were too simple. That's why people got tired of them. Rifts were a nice idea, but had horrible execution by its developer.
I don't think it was just that rifts were too simple, but Rift lacks any sort of compelling endgame progression, so no matter how much more interesting rifts could be, they're still pretty pointless as an endgame mechanic.
It was a combination of multiple things for sure. But as I said, they weren't executed very well.
Does endgame have to be Raids like we have seen in other MMO’S, maybe not, have other games worked without a endgame without raids? EVE is the only one so far, but is a very different game, and the players base of that game aren’t the same ones looking for a RPGMMO. IF all remember, after reaching the end of the previous games I mentioned before, most players just left, at best they kept playing for 2 months after.
Eve is not the only one so far, you need to add GW1 to that list. GW1 did not have vertical gear progression raids and it is financially successful. You could also add DAOC to that list because the endgame was RVR not PVE raiding, well at least until Mythic decided to ruin their own game with an expansion.
Originally posted by Mardukk
Huh? I wasn't talking about PvP. PvP is probably what they intend people to play at the lvl cap. I just don't understand the point of a PvEr playing at the lvl cap if you cannot build your character past titles and cosmetic items. I thought the point of MMO's was to build a character?
Utimately I don't think they care if the PvErs stay interested as there is no sub fee. They already have their box sales.
There are more than titles and cosmetic items in GW2; I think you need to do a little more research before you come to any conclusions. There are these things called traits that take the place of the build system in GW1 to help you make your own character. I give you an A for jumping to conclusions and a F for not doing your own research!
Balanced competitive PvP is the best endgame there is.
The PvP aspect is something I keep overlooking, though I don't know why since it was my favorite part of GW1. The same GW1 that people are still playing, that is still getting new content and quests, and is still selling very well for something released in 2005 (plus expansions). In that light, I'd say that fans of endgame PvP already know they're going to have a great time.. the persistent world, PvE challenges and dynamic events just add to what ANet was famous for.. ie: "Balanced competitive PvP endgame".
Hell, I don't even usually care about PvP, but I know when I get into a GW2 pvp area, I won't be stupidly overpowered. If I lose, it's because I need to work on my class. That is the core of ANet's MMO vision.
I do wish games would make the leveling process slower and make the game about the leveling process rather than everyone sitting at max level and complaining about an "endgame" . When you make a game take more than a couple weeks to max lvl you then have the "grinding" cry babies. Zomgz I didn't get to max lvl in a week!!1! What a Korean GRINDFEST!
I understand that everyone hates raiders, however, I do see a valid issue with the endgame. I don't see so much an issue with the raiding aspect as the no gear grinding aspect. I've heard some people say there is no way to advance your character other than cosmetic items and titles. If they hand out the best gear to everyone with little effort...what will we do? Hang out and explore? We will need to be pleased with pvp and titles/cosmetic items.
How does a game with no way to make your character better keep people around (other than pvp)?
If you want to be "better" than others then you should learn how to play our class well. If you only want to raid for hours on end to get a shot at that piece of über gear that will make you "better" than others, then move along, not going to happen. Being better will come from your real skill, not from not having a life and getting gear that most other players simply cannot get due to RL time restrictions.
If you can't even imagine being any good on a level playing field, then you have some work cut out for you.
Huh? I wasn't talking about PvP. PvP is probably what they intend people to play at the lvl cap. I just don't understand the point of a PvEr playing at the lvl cap if you cannot build your character past titles and cosmetic items. I thought the point of MMO's was to build a character?
Utimately I don't think they care if the PvErs stay interested as there is no sub fee. They already have their box sales.
true but some people do care for pve and raids ^_^ so they need to add both keep both players happy let them have there pvp and let thm have there pve...... just saying because not every one seems to like pvp and pve stuff so there a balance like the force :O
No they dont need to keep raiders happy, they dont need them in game at all . Go check gw1, whats the interest of ppl doing The Deep or Urgoz's Warren (their 12 man instances) - almost zero becouse they dont offer better gear than rest of the game.
Raiders dont do content unless it offers best gear, Anet dont want give them best gear, so they will not do raid instances at all becouse they know its wasted effort.
Heh , "End Game" ... it's a funny term and I don't even know WTF it means. Every MMO out there , hell even all the console games don't have any "End Game". You play till your bored and move onto the next MMO , not because you've accomplished everything in the game , otherwise WoW / Maple Story would of shut down years ago.
Also ,every MMO lose "staying power" after release and GW2 will be no different , and by God , it won't be because of lack of "End Game" but rather because of the "Been there , done that" or "Déja Vu" feeling.
Comments
To OP:
You are barking mad my dear....
Guild wars 2 is all about endgame, that's why it's so quick to get to the max level.
Do you really think that Arenanet hasn't thought about the endgame?
Come on.
seriously,
come on.
It doesn't have anything to do with GW2 (as the devs have described it). My line in quotations was how I imagined raiders would react if they were given raids and then NOT given elite gear that made them better than everyone else. I was kind of answering the question posed by another poster "would people still raid if not for the promise of elite gear?"
In other words, it was not MY opinion, but how I think raiders would react to not getting any "shiny stuff" from a hard instanced battle. I'm actually glad there's nothing like that in GW2.
But yeah, I agree with you on Christmas. But that's another subject.
Honestly, when you first entered this thread responding to a post I made attacking raids, you said it was probably because I was "left out" or because I was a "keyboard turner". Your comments are still there, so I think it's a bit hypocritical of you to warn others about personal attacks now.
On one hand, I think your devotion to raids is admirable, but when people put down the system, they're not putting you down, and when they become irritated by claims you have inside information that goes against everything ANet has told us, well can you blame them?
Now, back on topic - raiders who actually enjoy raiding (and don't just feel forced to do it because it's the only endgame content they're provided with) are a very small playerbase. ANet can't please everyone.
Huh? I wasn't talking about PvP. PvP is probably what they intend people to play at the lvl cap. I just don't understand the point of a PvEr playing at the lvl cap if you cannot build your character past titles and cosmetic items. I thought the point of MMO's was to build a character?
Utimately I don't think they care if the PvErs stay interested as there is no sub fee. They already have their box sales.
EXACTLY.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
true but some people do care for pve and raids ^_^ so they need to add both keep both players happy let them have there pvp and let thm have there pve...... just saying because not every one seems to like pvp and pve stuff so there a balance like the force :O
.....
GW2 won't have JUST 5 man dungeons and PvP. Lol. Rift didn't have Dynamic Events. Rift had rifts which were not as sophisticated as Dynamic Events. They were too simple. That's why people got tired of them. Rifts were a nice idea, but had horrible execution by its developer.
As for raiding, I don't give a crap about it. If ArenaNet wants to put it in, than whatever. But they won't let you raid for the highest level gear you can only get by raiding. What I find hilarious though is that ArenaNet isn't trying to make people play this game every minute of their life, and you're trying to treat this game and its developer just like any other MMO that does. People might get tired of it and that's okay with ArenaNet. Because one day you might load up the game again and realize all the new stuff that's been added. Then you might buy the expansion.
I've said this a million times before that ArenaNet is near invincible and the only thing that can hold them back is themselves. They have to work for people's money unlike developers who just add a monthly fee so they don't have to worry about money and don't have to worry about getting content out as quickly. Fact of the matter is, ArenaNet isn't competing with other MMO developers for your time, but other MMO developers ARE competing with ArenaNet for your time. That makes them almost untouchable in that regard because they don't have to aknowledge anyone but themselves. That makes them work harder on the game. Other MMO developers will crap their pants when their subscriptions start falling. I know a lot of people like to say that you can play both a subscription game and GW2, but what if GW2 is incredible? What's going to happen? Why keep paying 15 dollars a month for an MMO that doesn't hold a candle to a game that you can buy once and play forever? This kind of mindset will be matter more than people think.
Understand that competition is near irrelevant for ArenaNet at this point. They have no specific reason to put in raiding. Because it's not just MMO players that will be playing this game. ArenaNet is reaching out to EVERYONE, except for those select few who like to raid. Sorry to say buddy, but you and your friends are irrelevant to the grand scheme. You might not like it, but that's something you'll have to deal with. If ArenaNet does put in raiding, it's only because they're nice enough to give certain people what they want. Guaranteed you won't get special gear that has effects beyond what it looks like though. I can bet everything on it.
you lost me at "lack of end game".
I don't think it was just that rifts were too simple, but Rift lacks any sort of compelling endgame progression, so no matter how much more interesting rifts could be, they're still pretty pointless as an endgame mechanic.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Not sure of your style of play, but WoW just isn't popular for it's "endgame" content. Many who play the game rarely, if ever get to that. Casual gamers, (working adults for example) enjoy the questing, the dungeons, the guilds, and a friend base.
There are many demographics who play that game for the many aspects of it. If everyone only wanted endgame content, questing would be so dumbed down and streamlined it'd end up like Aion: a mindless grind to level cap.
Debating endgame of a game that ISN"T RELEASED yet is pointless and endless. It seems as if you're looking for someone to agree with your fanboi attitude of not liking this unreleased game because it isn't YOUR game. Relax. When the game arrives, either buy it or not. Attempting to tear it apart before it's done only makes you appear juvenile.
How more dumbed down could you possibly make questing in WoW. I had a guildmate who let his 4yr old son do the quests for him.. You set it to auto accept and then an arrow pops up and tells you were to go..you kill or pick up whatever quest wants and an arrow pops up to send you back.. seriously, how much easier could that be?
I know everyone assumes because they like gaming a certain way, that everyone should.
I know Im guilty of that. It takes all types of play style for a game to have the kind of success that WoW has had.. Most devs these days just want a small piece of the pie to pay the bills and be profitable..
Lets see your Battle Stations /r/battlestations
Battle Station
Balanced competitive PvP is the best endgame there is.
I can't really argue against that actually, at least for me.
It was a combination of multiple things for sure. But as I said, they weren't executed very well.
Eve is not the only one so far, you need to add GW1 to that list. GW1 did not have vertical gear progression raids and it is financially successful. You could also add DAOC to that list because the endgame was RVR not PVE raiding, well at least until Mythic decided to ruin their own game with an expansion.
There are more than titles and cosmetic items in GW2; I think you need to do a little more research before you come to any conclusions. There are these things called traits that take the place of the build system in GW1 to help you make your own character. I give you an A for jumping to conclusions and a F for not doing your own research!
The PvP aspect is something I keep overlooking, though I don't know why since it was my favorite part of GW1. The same GW1 that people are still playing, that is still getting new content and quests, and is still selling very well for something released in 2005 (plus expansions). In that light, I'd say that fans of endgame PvP already know they're going to have a great time.. the persistent world, PvE challenges and dynamic events just add to what ANet was famous for.. ie: "Balanced competitive PvP endgame".
Hell, I don't even usually care about PvP, but I know when I get into a GW2 pvp area, I won't be stupidly overpowered. If I lose, it's because I need to work on my class. That is the core of ANet's MMO vision.
No they dont need to keep raiders happy, they dont need them in game at all . Go check gw1, whats the interest of ppl doing The Deep or Urgoz's Warren (their 12 man instances) - almost zero becouse they dont offer better gear than rest of the game.
Raiders dont do content unless it offers best gear, Anet dont want give them best gear, so they will not do raid instances at all becouse they know its wasted effort.
Heh , "End Game" ... it's a funny term and I don't even know WTF it means. Every MMO out there , hell even all the console games don't have any "End Game". You play till your bored and move onto the next MMO , not because you've accomplished everything in the game , otherwise WoW / Maple Story would of shut down years ago.
Also ,every MMO lose "staying power" after release and GW2 will be no different , and by God , it won't be because of lack of "End Game" but rather because of the "Been there , done that" or "Déja Vu" feeling.