For those saying soloists should leave MMO's and go play single player games, why don't maybe all of the groupers leave the MMO's instead? It is equally valid to tell the groupers to go play an instanced only game like GW1 or DDO as it is to tell a soloer to play a single player game. What does a persistent world shared by thousands have to do with those that like to join small groups (20 or less)? Is that small group interacting with all the thousands of others any more than the soloist is? So stop it with telling the soloist he should leave the MMO.
So there you go, all those who like to group and only group, please leave the MMO's for the soloists and go play DDO or GW1 instead.
Remember, soloists actually have TONS of interactions with other players while they are soloing, and most who enjoy soloing also enjoy grouping at times anyway.
And absolutely nowhere in the definition of MMO is the word group. The key point is you are in a persistent world with thousands of others. How you choose to role play in that environment is your choice. The grouper nazis should stop telling everybody how to have fun...
I think you don't understand the major underpinnings that made the original MMORPG games so ground breaking & unique from every other game genere that existed up until that point.
I'm all for people being able to solo in games. There is absolutely a place for lone wolfs in the grand scheme of virtual worlds....just as there is a place for player killers, anit-player killers, small guilds, large guilds, etc.
Where the problem with soloers exist is when they start influencing game changes & mechanics. When you start making changes to the game to help enable soloers, you conversly start demotivating people to group. If soloing is the path of least resistance, you loose alot of what made this genere once unique and an ejoyable place to play where there is no other option.
Telling people what want grouping to go play in an instanced dungeon somewhere completely misses the entire point. It's not the grouping in dungeons that made traditional MMORPG games fun. As a matter of fact, instancing did MUCH to remove many social dynamics that were at play in an instanceless world. You no longer have to worry about defending your group from competing groups. The need to defend yourself from larger groups creates a need to seek out a group for yourself. In order to be accepted to a group, you need to act in a manner that is socially acceptable. Friendships are made...long lasting friendships are made.
I remember when I first started playing UO....I ran around solo for a while starting out. I found a profitable place to hunt and i was killed by another guy. I went to town to restock and on my way back ran into another fellow that was heading in the same direction as I was. I told him I got ganked and we decided to band together and work cooperatively to protect eachother.
The PK came back and we kicked his butt. The PK then came back with a few more people and in turn kicked our butt. The guy I met was guilded and he brought in some backup......the end result was a long lasting rivalry was created between the group of PKs we were fighting and the guild I was fighting alongside. In addition, i was invited to join and made some long lasting connections with people that I play other games with today. Thats the magic of this genere.
In a modern MMO, the way this scenario would have shaken out was I would have found some instance to do my thing in without people bothering me or I would have relocated to one of the other hundred places available to solo content in and completely avoided the situation to begin with. No reason to seek out other people.....no friendships made as a result.
You look at the general community in games that support casual soloable gameplay and its no wonder the community is in the crapper. It's no wonder that no one knows other peoples names....and are referenced by their class instead (Mage give me water, Druid...give me buffs, Shaman...throw totems)
Removing all of those things that made MMORPGs special, just so the big game companies can exploit the lucrative MMORPG pricing model on the largest section of the gamer pie (casual gamers) is sort of ashame......and very telling of the current state MMORPGs are in.
The entire concept of a MMO is adventuring with others. If you want to solo all the time, why not just buy a single player RPG?
Here's a novel concept: Make me. I'll play whatever game I want to play and there will never be a damn thing you can do about it. Oh, except complain on random forums that mean absolutely nothing. At the end of the day, a soloer like me is still gonna be there playing an MMO the way HE/SHE wants to play it.
He was asking a perfectly legitimate question. Why seek out games primarily focused upon group play in order to solo all the time? I fail to see how that correlates with someone saying "nah nah you shouldn't be allowed to play these games".
As for playing it the way you want to, yes you can attempt to do that just like anyone else, but there is of course no guarantee that you will be able to solo everything you wish.
I agree with your second assessment but as for the first, players ARE saying that people shouldn't be approaching these games solo because "solo" doesn't fit in with what they believe is the focus of these games.
What they neglect to notice is (once again) that there are many ways to be social in these games.
And by their very nature, just having people in these game worlds brings the world to life in a way that single player games just can't achieve.
And as another poster mentioned, there are a lot of jerks in these games. A LOT! They are tiring and who wants to deal with their nonsense?
People will always have that "It's my $15 a month, I'll do what I want" card...and rightfully so. And yes....as a casual soloing MMORPG gamer, I understand the niceties of being "included" in a bustling online community......so long as there is a community.
Where I drew the line was my expectations of what I should be allowed to do. Never did I think something was owed to me just because I liked to play solo vs. grouping with other people. Never once did I complain to a dev community that I should be on even keel with someone who takes the time & effort to organize group activities or had more time to spend in game.
It's when the game mechanics start changing to promote soloing is where your community goes to hell in a hand basket.
There are unintended consequences to the community to allow players to automagically get thrown into random groups for dungeon crawls.
There are unintended consequences to the community by setting up instances for people to operate in without interfacing with the rest of the community.
There are unintended consequnces when you make grouping inconsequential.
I've played Ultima Online for 4+ years and WOW for over 5.......I understand the difference between a game that promotes grouping and a game that doesnt. I also understand the differences between the UO community and the WOW community....and its two completely different game experiences.
I dont see why people that wish to solo everything play mmorpg's. I think people have taken a step back from the true nature of mmo's and caused many companies to dumb down mmo's because people rather play a console rpg online.
No, people have just gotten tired of playing with d-bags. We all know the true nature of the MMO, it's just when you weigh it against what you have to put up with, it's not worth it.
I have to take issue with your idea that all soloers are former MMORPG enthusiasts that have just gotten fed up with a-holes.
I've met some REALLY cool people in MMORPGs.....some I'm still friends with today. Some that I play different games with today. Almost all of those relationships have come out of necessity....needing some protection from the a-holes, needing some help doing something in game.....or by actively looking for others to compete in PvP or PvE endgame.
If that trigger is never there and you can do everything on your own......then why bother? And what sort of game do you have when the vast majority have that "why bother" attitude?
You have a Ultima Onine Avatar.......do you (or have you) played World of Warcraft? In your experience in UO, did you see half the appathetic people playing UO as you've seen in any given WOW Battleground?
Did you see people PvPing in UO do half the dumb crap repeatedly over and over in UO than you see in any given WOW Battleground?
UO had its fair share of A-Holes...to be sure.....but there were plenty of people there that would give you the shirt off your back. In my UO experience, less people mouthed off and acted anti-social because there were consequenses. There are no consequences in WOW....and the community shows.
For those saying soloists should leave MMO's and go play single player games, why don't maybe all of the groupers leave the MMO's instead? It is equally valid to tell the groupers to go play an instanced only game like GW1 or DDO as it is to tell a soloer to play a single player game. What does a persistent world shared by thousands have to do with those that like to join small groups (20 or less)? Is that small group interacting with all the thousands of others any more than the soloist is? So stop it with telling the soloist he should leave the MMO.
So there you go, all those who like to group and only group, please leave the MMO's for the soloists and go play DDO or GW1 instead.
Remember, soloists actually have TONS of interactions with other players while they are soloing, and most who enjoy soloing also enjoy grouping at times anyway.
And absolutely nowhere in the definition of MMO is the word group. The key point is you are in a persistent world with thousands of others. How you choose to role play in that environment is your choice. The grouper nazis should stop telling everybody how to have fun...
I think you don't understand the major underpinnings that made the original MMORPG games so ground breaking & unique from every other game genere that existed up until that point.
I'm all for people being able to solo in games. There is absolutely a place for lone wolfs in the grand scheme of virtual worlds....just as there is a place for player killers, anit-player killers, small guilds, large guilds, etc.
Where the problem with soloers exist is when they start influencing game changes & mechanics. When you start making changes to the game to help enable soloers, you conversly start demotivating people to group. If soloing is the path of least resistance, you loose alot of what made this genere once unique and an ejoyable place to play where there is no other option.
Telling people what want grouping to go play in an instanced dungeon somewhere completely misses the entire point. It's not the grouping in dungeons that made traditional MMORPG games fun. As a matter of fact, instancing did MUCH to remove many social dynamics that were at play in an instanceless world. You no longer have to worry about defending your group from competing groups. The need to defend yourself from larger groups creates a need to seek out a group for yourself. In order to be accepted to a group, you need to act in a manner that is socially acceptable. Friendships are made...long lasting friendships are made.
I remember when I first started playing UO....I ran around solo for a while starting out. I found a profitable place to hunt and i was killed by another guy. I went to town to restock and on my way back ran into another fellow that was heading in the same direction as I was. I told him I got ganked and we decided to band together and work cooperatively to protect eachother.
The PK came back and we kicked his butt. The PK then came back with a few more people and in turn kicked our butt. The guy I met was guilded and he brought in some backup......the end result was a long lasting rivalry was created between the group of PKs we were fighting and the guild I was fighting alongside. In addition, i was invited to join and made some long lasting connections with people that I play other games with today. Thats the magic of this genere.
In a modern MMO, the way this scenario would have shaken out was I would have found some instance to do my thing in without people bothering me or I would have relocated to one of the other hundred places available to solo content in and completely avoided the situation to begin with. No reason to seek out other people.....no friendships made as a result.
You look at the general community in games that support casual soloable gameplay and its no wonder the community is in the crapper. It's no wonder that no one knows other peoples names....and are referenced by their class instead (Mage give me water, Druid...give me buffs, Shaman...throw totems)
Removing all of those things that made MMORPGs special, just so the big game companies can exploit the lucrative MMORPG pricing model on the largest section of the gamer pie (casual gamers) is sort of ashame......and very telling of the current state MMORPGs are in.
I hear ya, and don't disagree. But I was more responding to the posters telling soloists to go play single player games.
However, your scenario is really still very much valid in today's MMO's, as long as you play on PVP servers. Playing on PVP servers is the key to ensure grouping.
For instance in Rift, a very solo friendly game, as long as you are on a PVP server your scenario is the norm not the exception. Soloers tend to join small groups when the going gets tough PVP-wise, especially when doing dailies. And small groups joing larger groups in a kind of escalation quite frequently. The dynamic joining/dropping from groups is actually very prevelant there. I have other issues with that game, but feeling lonely isnt one of them
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
For those saying soloists should leave MMO's and go play single player games, why don't maybe all of the groupers leave the MMO's instead? It is equally valid to tell the groupers to go play an instanced only game like GW1 or DDO as it is to tell a soloer to play a single player game. What does a persistent world shared by thousands have to do with those that like to join small groups (20 or less)? Is that small group interacting with all the thousands of others any more than the soloist is? So stop it with telling the soloist he should leave the MMO.
So there you go, all those who like to group and only group, please leave the MMO's for the soloists and go play DDO or GW1 instead.
Remember, soloists actually have TONS of interactions with other players while they are soloing, and most who enjoy soloing also enjoy grouping at times anyway.
And absolutely nowhere in the definition of MMO is the word group. The key point is you are in a persistent world with thousands of others. How you choose to role play in that environment is your choice. The grouper nazis should stop telling everybody how to have fun...
I think you don't understand the major underpinnings that made the original MMORPG games so ground breaking & unique from every other game genere that existed up until that point.
I'm all for people being able to solo in games. There is absolutely a place for lone wolfs in the grand scheme of virtual worlds....just as there is a place for player killers, anit-player killers, small guilds, large guilds, etc.
Where the problem with soloers exist is when they start influencing game changes & mechanics. When you start making changes to the game to help enable soloers, you conversly start demotivating people to group. If soloing is the path of least resistance, you loose alot of what made this genere once unique and an ejoyable place to play where there is no other option.
Telling people what want grouping to go play in an instanced dungeon somewhere completely misses the entire point. It's not the grouping in dungeons that made traditional MMORPG games fun. As a matter of fact, instancing did MUCH to remove many social dynamics that were at play in an instanceless world. You no longer have to worry about defending your group from competing groups. The need to defend yourself from larger groups creates a need to seek out a group for yourself. In order to be accepted to a group, you need to act in a manner that is socially acceptable. Friendships are made...long lasting friendships are made.
I remember when I first started playing UO....I ran around solo for a while starting out. I found a profitable place to hunt and i was killed by another guy. I went to town to restock and on my way back ran into another fellow that was heading in the same direction as I was. I told him I got ganked and we decided to band together and work cooperatively to protect eachother.
The PK came back and we kicked his butt. The PK then came back with a few more people and in turn kicked our butt. The guy I met was guilded and he brought in some backup......the end result was a long lasting rivalry was created between the group of PKs we were fighting and the guild I was fighting alongside. In addition, i was invited to join and made some long lasting connections with people that I play other games with today. Thats the magic of this genere.
In a modern MMO, the way this scenario would have shaken out was I would have found some instance to do my thing in without people bothering me or I would have relocated to one of the other hundred places available to solo content in and completely avoided the situation to begin with. No reason to seek out other people.....no friendships made as a result.
You look at the general community in games that support casual soloable gameplay and its no wonder the community is in the crapper. It's no wonder that no one knows other peoples names....and are referenced by their class instead (Mage give me water, Druid...give me buffs, Shaman...throw totems)
Removing all of those things that made MMORPGs special, just so the big game companies can exploit the lucrative MMORPG pricing model on the largest section of the gamer pie (casual gamers) is sort of ashame......and very telling of the current state MMORPGs are in.
I agree on this..If you add enough solo content in a game , you will eventually create a world were you actually are "forced to solo" Because there is little to no point in grouping up on solo quests ..
And solo worlds will create barren and silent worlds. all you solo advocates can argue all you like, you will NOT socialise more or the same in a game that let's you solo all the way to the cap.
It's all in human nature, If something isn't forced, well ..then most will avoid it..
It's all in human nature, If something isn't forced, well ..then most will avoid it..
In that case any game with a forced playing style is bound for financial failure, because you can't force people to buy/play said game ;-)
We dont need casuals in our games!!! Errm... Well we DO need casuals to fund and populate our games - But the games should be all about "hardcore" because: We dont need casuals in our games!!! (repeat ad infinitum)
I'm in a bad mood, but not such a bad mood that I want to end up on the ignore list of an entire server, get guild kicked, and possibly permabanned from the game. Therefore, I will go off by my lonesome and slay hapless creatures until I'm fit for human company again.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
My first game was Lineage and I had similar experiences. The difference is Lineage and UO didn't really have different kinds of content. There was no clear delineation between solo and group content. You could go solo or duo very difficult content if you were good enough, but grouping up made it safer. There wasn't a requirement to approach content in any restricted fashion.
Fast forward to EQ, WoW, EQ2, LotRO, and the later linear themeparks where they tried to fix the flaws of the first generation games and you have highly linear defined content on rails. There is "group" and "solo" content, content made for "duos" and "small groups". Everything is so rigidly on rails that people aren't free to organically approach the content. If you meet a couple other people out adventuring you can't just enter the dungeon until you add the required number and type of players needed to accomplish that "group" content.
So we don't have a problem with soloers or groupers. I don't think we can clearly categorize and shoehorn players so easily. What we have is a content design problem where players are forced to choose a playstyle and a label with that.
In short we don't have a problem with soloers ruining MMOs or groupers trying to define MMO as a group play only. We have a problem with poor content designers shoveling the same contrived design paradigm over and over again. There certainly isn't a shortage of MMO game designers; there is a shortage of good MMO game designers.
This is very well said.
My first game was Lineage 2 and there wasn't "solo/group content". There was content.
Some of it one could do solo and some you coulnd't or you had to be high enough level to tackle it.
This is how I think game should be. If one wants to go to an area that is difficult and requires a group then great. If one wants to go and find a place they can solo then great.
Of course with many theme park gamees there are quest hubs and content of a certain level for these quest hub areas and this creates its own problems.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
It's interesting how so many group players can't seem to grasp the concept of prefering a peopled game world to (mostly) solo play in. They seem to think being in a gang is the only way to interact with other players. I wonder if we are seeing a RL division between people who need the support of a gang to feel OK about themselves, vs people who are comfortable in their own skin and prefer independence?
What you say makes sense and is probably true in many cases, but if you look at the list, what the author seems to imply is that (occaisionally) they find failing embarassing, that they don't want to sacrifice thier game time by helping other players or missing a chance at loot, and that they do not want the commitment or responsiblity that being in a group entails. Just as an example, these are all qualities that are the opposite of what makes a good leader. Good leaders usually have a great deal of confidence in themselves.
From my perspective the opposite of what you say is true. While it may not be the case every time, I find people that prefer to solo tend to do so because they are afraid that people will not like them, or that they aren't good enough and will get laughed at and ridiculed. So instead of ponying up and being a good group leader or member, they take the easier road by soloing, where they don't have to bother with the challenges of socializing with a diverse crowd of real people. I'm not saying that this is bad, just a matter of perspective. The difference is what you expect out of other people and what you are willing to sacrifice and tolerate to make the game fun for everybody.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
They are Massively Multi-Player Online games not Massively Muitplayer Online Groups
They are Massively Multi-Player Online Role Playing Games, and role playing is sort of pointless when you're alone as in a single player RPG.
And no, not everyone can play the role of solitary, disaffected loner, the world needs a broader range of actors to be really entertaining.
And by role playing I don't mean everyone has to act like they're in a LARP, they can just play the role their character was designed for, be it healer, buffer, crowd controller or what have you.
(not a fan of omin-classing which seems to be the new pink or something in the MMORPG world)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Don't get me wrong. I really like grouping. I really do. But...
For starters, I hate raids and I almost entirely hate everything that's behind it. i genuinely oppose to orginize my life around this sort of "group content" just because that is the only way to get best available gear and because that is the only reasonable end game content and if you don't follow that path, you are second class citizen.
I hate the repetiotion, that comes with that. Do same thing over and over again, memorize how to deal with this and that, rinse and repeat and if you're lucky enough, you're going to get rewarded with a candy. No, thank you, I'd rather do something exciting. (GW 2 dynamic events plus combat based on dodgin, positioning etc... for instance
What I hate even more, is to wait for for specific class (healer or tank mainly) to show up, because we have to praise omnipresence of the holy trinity. Hopefully, new generation of MMO's will sort that problem out.
To simplify it, i want to have fun, if i play the game. quite o a lot of so called "group content" seems to me like another job or plainly a lot of boredom with some elements of fun.
So therefore I'm all for more "solo oriented" content. Even if that means dynamic, but natural grouping...
Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone elses opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation
Honestly, I end up soloing most of the time because I started with RuneScape when I was 10-12, and in that game, you basically solo 99% of the time unless you attend an event with your friends or happen to run across someone amiable (and not AFK) while skilling. Perhaps if I had started in a heavily group-oriented MMO, my natural preference would be different (though I did move from RS to DAoC, and I absolutely loved the RvR).
Solo just seems far simpler to me. Go in, do what you want to do, explore, quest, kill things, craft, whatever you feel like. A very limited amount of content will be beyond your reach because of group restrictions, but even then, that's what the guild raid at 8pm is for. I prefer my group content to be structured and organized because that's the best way to deal with lots of people at once, but I don't mind the occasional PUG if my groupmates aren't complete morons. And here's the thing: Just because I solo doesn't mean I don't chat with friends or even people I meet across the game world. There's a difference between wanting to play by yourself and being by yourself.
The arguments of the pro-group posts so far appear to be centered on the following:
1. "Solo-fication" of MMO's results in the rewards of group content becoming "trivial".
This sounds like the grouping fans are more interested in the LOOT than in the actual grouping dynamics.
2. If the game allows players to solo to level-cap, people will avoid grouping.
This sounds like "I'm really interested in levelling as fast as possible, so if solo play gets me there quicker, why should I group ?"
If the majority of people genuinely preferred playing in groups, then they would, and the evolution of MMO's would reflect that preference. However, the opposite seems to be true, in that the majority of people avoid grouping when it is possible to avoid it. Afaik, no MMO has ever "failed" because it had too much solo content, but there have been ones that struggled because they had too little.
The refrain from the pro-grouping set seems to be: "I want the game to force people to group more, so that the game caters more to my preferred playstyle".
Added to that you aren't experiencing "dependancy" so much. Waiting for other players and depending on them to do their thing right can be downright annoying occasionaly. Love grouped play but it has to be balanced with sufficient solo time in my case, for a game to remain interesting.
Allowing me to solo, gives me the option to ignore the most annoying thing typically found in all MMORPG's... Other Players!That is, until you run across a wan... er I mean, ganker!
I don't hate other players. In fact, I like the fact that when I log into an mmo, there are a bunch of other people there. I enjoy pugs and random pvp group for instanced and world pvp. World boss pugs are a lot of fun too. I just don't want to intertwine my life with theirs so I can play a game.
Same for me, really. I find it hard to play solo games these days because I feel sort of lonely playing by myself, but I also find it very frustrating trying to communicate with folks (especially through type) about what stage of a quest I am on, what I want to do next, what they want to do, what they've done, etc etc. *yawn*
Having people around me, however, feels crucial to my gaming enjoyment even if I'm not in the mood for interacting much. When I am in the mood, it's great to have the opportunity to chat with the other folks (either in voice chat, or with a bit of roleplay, or simply exchanging greetings and a /bow). Plus, I love the experience of completing a dungeon, or closely fought battleground with good teamwork, but that doesn't seem to happen so often these days because I drift around from game to game and thus don't settle in one guild. Some of the PUG's I've been in have been great, though, and I enjoy helping other players around kill a tricky mob, or somesuch.
All in all, I love to solo, but I enjoy mixing with other players, too.
Its cheaper to buy a rpg for your console than to buy a mmo and pay a monthly sub. Granted you can play a f2p mmo, but you still will spend money eventualy, well some do.
I dont see why people that wish to solo everything play mmorpg's. I think people have taken a step back from the true nature of mmo's and caused many companies to dumb down mmo's because people rather play a console rpg online. Its kind of turned mmo's of today into a lughing stock, none of these new games coming out are worth a damn. My hope for SWTOR and GW2 have already been dashed due to companions for TOR. GW's i already knew was not a true mmo, so no big loss there.
Seriously, want to solo go grab a rpg game. Leave the mmo genre alone. You just make it more horrible with all your want for solo play, no pvp, no player housing, no crafting, no real challenge, no skill, and no using the brain. Thats for the rpg section, not for a true mmo.
I like to play solo just to be one of these people. That way, I can ruin other people's day.
As a primarily solo player, I enjoy playing MMOs because:
-- With a live player population, the MMO worlds feel MORE real than SPRPGs. It's the same principle behind getting a cup of coffee at Starbucks as opposed to being on some iolated mountaintop. One can enjoy having people around quite apart from actually grouping with them for quests. A lot of the dopey "Then go play Mass Effect" comments are from people who just don't get this.
-- I like having an active economy/market for crafting, selling, and buying goods. This is not possible in an SPRPG.
--I like grouping with other players -- VERY -- occasionally and when I feel like it, not because the game requires it of me. This is also not possible in a SPRPG.
In short, while I used to be actively involved in grouping in MMOs (WoW and LotRO), I never do so any more. It's too much of a hassle, and it doesn't generally work with my schedule.
All 5 of your reasons resonate with me, OP, though I would modify #2 somewhat. I don't care about embarrassing deaths, but I do hate "being the noob" on first runs through missions and quests. One of the things I really love about GW1 is that it gives soloers like me the option -- using heroes/henchmen -- of "testing the waters" of a given instance, dungeon, or mission before attempting it with other players, should I want or need to do that. I like having that option.
I also love the way GW "holds your place" while you're questing (no respawns and/or automatic log-offs to worry about), which is very handy if, like me, you're a parent in real life and sometimes get called away from the computer to do other things. I wish more MMOs worked that way.
I think you pretty much described me, when you described yourself. In referrence to what I highlighted in green...for me, a big part of grouping like this, is wanting to group with people with similar goals and play styles. Like a lot of the other folks, that are here, too many times, I've been stuck with players who just want to zerg through everything. I like to read the quest dialogues, enjoy the storyline, and just try to enjoy the game as much as possible. There are people, out there, like me, but geez...they seem to be a shrinking minority.
I’m a solo player 90% of the time. I don’t hate other people, and can care less about the loot or opinion of the other players.
One of the reasons why I prefer playing solo is due to the fact that I can enjoy all that effort that designers and game developers put in the game. I can see that castle over there on horizon, go through bunch of mobs get somehow through the textures on the roof and observe it from the different perspective.
Second important reason - I don’t like chatting/talking to other people in a virtual world, unless it is related to specific issues related to the gameplay. I have plenty options to have interesting conversation in my real life, and “friendly chat” with average MMORPG player doesn’t get me excited in any way. And in every guild, and almost every group – there is that one “funny guy” or “natural born leader” who keeps talking, and commenting on everything he sees or hears.
For those who says “why don’t you go play the single-player game, if u don’t like grouping”? I’m much more effective doing on my own, then getting together with mediocre group players who cannot survive 20 seconds without healer or supporters. The reason I play MMORPGs is a competition with real people. Having fights 1vs2+ players and win or at least survive is what makes me thrilled. On contrary, it is very hard for me to find any kind of joy on sitting in instance for !!!!hours!!!! and kill several mobs for loot… It is actually called cooperative gameplay, and it has even less in common with MMORPG.
The arguments of the pro-group posts so far appear to be centered on the following:
1. "Solo-fication" of MMO's results in the rewards of group content becoming "trivial".
This sounds like the grouping fans are more interested in the LOOT than in the actual grouping dynamics.
2. If the game allows players to solo to level-cap, people will avoid grouping.
This sounds like "I'm really interested in levelling as fast as possible, so if solo play gets me there quicker, why should I group ?"
If the majority of people genuinely preferred playing in groups, then they would, and the evolution of MMO's would reflect that preference. However, the opposite seems to be true, in that the majority of people avoid grouping when it is possible to avoid it. Afaik, no MMO has ever "failed" because it had too much solo content, but there have been ones that struggled because they had too little.
The refrain from the pro-grouping set seems to be: "I want the game to force people to group more, so that the game caters more to my preferred playstyle".
You make good points..:)
And If you look at the points made, you will see that it's all in the design of the game.
The main reason players will avoid grouping is because the content is designed towards solo/single players. There is no fun in playing a game with friends that really is designed for a single player .
Well, I think that the reason we see "If I group I want better loot" is that players are actually afraid now that grouping is so sparse that they will even remove this carrot for groupers..If you took on group content usually ment better rewards.
Good grouping dynamics is a huge key here, unfortunatly the MMO scene is very stagnant in the "holy trinity" tank spank design. We need a good grouping design that will make grouping popular again, and we need it fast.
I'm also against forcing anything in a game like this, grouping should be fun and come naturally, but it must be the main thing to design an MMO around not like in many MMO's nowadays ..It has more soloable areas than group. Often when you play you also need to complete a certain amount of solo missions before you can enter a group area..This IMO forces me to solo.
A good example is a game like Left 4 Dead, NOONE is forcing anything in that game, everyone is totally cool with that you will always need to stick together othervise you will die.
It seems that all those comment forms I filled out when unsubscribing at around lvl 40 or so for so many MMORPGs, where I cited the reason as "You ran out of solo content," was being listened to after all.
I'm guessing that groupers were the most vocal so devs thought they needed to be catered to, but eventually they caught on that solo and duo players is probably a larger potential audience if they are given enough content.
I think most of you are totally missing the whole point of MMO's. Psychological exploitation knows neither "solo" nor "party."
Seriously, seeing you people criticize solo MMO players is like seeing a fat kid berate another fat kid for liking Hershey's without almonds, and then telling him to go eat raw cacao beans instead.
I think most of you are totally missing the whole point of MMO's. Psychological exploitation knows neither "solo" nor "party."
Seriously, seeing you people criticize solo MMO players is like seeing a fat kid berate another fat kid for liking Hershey's without almonds, and then telling him to go eat raw cacao beans instead.
Nice edit. It makes as much sense as the original but in a much smaller space. Your points for socializing outside of grouping seemed moot and antiquated from what I've seen in games.
Rarely do I see people chat on the general channels unless it's linked anal jokes, various internet memes, or talking about being drunk or high (with the additional harassment from your team when instanced PvP isn't going so well).
Trading? The great majority is done in auction houses; what's in trade chat is likely the same content as my previous point.
I forget the third example you gave but it seemed something that hasn't occurred since pre-2004 MMOs as well. The previous poster that stated SPRPGs are better in all aspects of solo gameplay is right on the money.
Having said that I have no problem with players that prefer to solo in multiplayer games, but it's foolish to cry when there isn't enough solo content in a genre that was never meant for solo play.
I am a soloer a lot of the time, sometimes because I like to do it that way (like to do things using only my own steam) and I hate games that force grouping onto you. Especially if it's a lower populated game (SWG, I am looking directly at you!) There is nothing like being gated from content because you cannot find people to play with. Sometimes devs design for the hypothetical well populated game instead of the reality of what it is currently (again, SWG is a prime example. It's about to sunset, has it's lowest population ever and all on one server, but the new content (which is awesome that we got it, dont get me wrong) but it's impossible to do solo and especially impossible to do unbuffed, which again means you need other players to get those buffs, which sadly means you have to play on the same server that is hugely lagged because probably literally 80%+ of the total players are on that one server. It's all or none right now in that game, but they designed it as if everyone had access to things that we don't , i.e. other players.
I have always been a 'guilded soloer' meaning I have a group to talk to and play with in just about any game I play, but I am one of those that end up having to explain that this is a new alt for my main that most people know me as etc... I.e. not Mr Popularity.
I've been Mr Popularity before, in Asheron's Call I was a very popular member of a large guild and sometimes it gets tiresome because everyone wants to send you tells as soon as you log in and everyone wants you to go with them to do xyz and it can get tiresome. Being a celebrity sucks, even online.
Played: Asheron's Call(still the best fantasy MMO!), EQ1, EQ2, Vanguard, DAoC, Horizons, City of Heroes/Villians, WoW (crap), LOTORO, D&D Online, Eve, Anarchy Online, and still playing SWG daily.
The trick that devs, across the board, need to latch onto here is to make things scable. If you take a quest solo, it balances (loot wise as well) to not be over whelming, but also allows for groups to do it (with higher chances of better loot) to encourage grouping. Some games already do this and some do not, and I always say you should err on the side of flexibility. Every game going forward should design this way honestly. They aren't (SOE seems to really not like this type of design as a company) but others do a good job at it (Turbine gets it.)
Flexibility is the key to success with MMOs.
Played: Asheron's Call(still the best fantasy MMO!), EQ1, EQ2, Vanguard, DAoC, Horizons, City of Heroes/Villians, WoW (crap), LOTORO, D&D Online, Eve, Anarchy Online, and still playing SWG daily.
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I think you don't understand the major underpinnings that made the original MMORPG games so ground breaking & unique from every other game genere that existed up until that point.
I'm all for people being able to solo in games. There is absolutely a place for lone wolfs in the grand scheme of virtual worlds....just as there is a place for player killers, anit-player killers, small guilds, large guilds, etc.
Where the problem with soloers exist is when they start influencing game changes & mechanics. When you start making changes to the game to help enable soloers, you conversly start demotivating people to group. If soloing is the path of least resistance, you loose alot of what made this genere once unique and an ejoyable place to play where there is no other option.
Telling people what want grouping to go play in an instanced dungeon somewhere completely misses the entire point. It's not the grouping in dungeons that made traditional MMORPG games fun. As a matter of fact, instancing did MUCH to remove many social dynamics that were at play in an instanceless world. You no longer have to worry about defending your group from competing groups. The need to defend yourself from larger groups creates a need to seek out a group for yourself. In order to be accepted to a group, you need to act in a manner that is socially acceptable. Friendships are made...long lasting friendships are made.
I remember when I first started playing UO....I ran around solo for a while starting out. I found a profitable place to hunt and i was killed by another guy. I went to town to restock and on my way back ran into another fellow that was heading in the same direction as I was. I told him I got ganked and we decided to band together and work cooperatively to protect eachother.
The PK came back and we kicked his butt. The PK then came back with a few more people and in turn kicked our butt. The guy I met was guilded and he brought in some backup......the end result was a long lasting rivalry was created between the group of PKs we were fighting and the guild I was fighting alongside. In addition, i was invited to join and made some long lasting connections with people that I play other games with today. Thats the magic of this genere.
In a modern MMO, the way this scenario would have shaken out was I would have found some instance to do my thing in without people bothering me or I would have relocated to one of the other hundred places available to solo content in and completely avoided the situation to begin with. No reason to seek out other people.....no friendships made as a result.
You look at the general community in games that support casual soloable gameplay and its no wonder the community is in the crapper. It's no wonder that no one knows other peoples names....and are referenced by their class instead (Mage give me water, Druid...give me buffs, Shaman...throw totems)
Removing all of those things that made MMORPGs special, just so the big game companies can exploit the lucrative MMORPG pricing model on the largest section of the gamer pie (casual gamers) is sort of ashame......and very telling of the current state MMORPGs are in.
People will always have that "It's my $15 a month, I'll do what I want" card...and rightfully so. And yes....as a casual soloing MMORPG gamer, I understand the niceties of being "included" in a bustling online community......so long as there is a community.
Where I drew the line was my expectations of what I should be allowed to do. Never did I think something was owed to me just because I liked to play solo vs. grouping with other people. Never once did I complain to a dev community that I should be on even keel with someone who takes the time & effort to organize group activities or had more time to spend in game.
It's when the game mechanics start changing to promote soloing is where your community goes to hell in a hand basket.
There are unintended consequences to the community to allow players to automagically get thrown into random groups for dungeon crawls.
There are unintended consequences to the community by setting up instances for people to operate in without interfacing with the rest of the community.
There are unintended consequnces when you make grouping inconsequential.
I've played Ultima Online for 4+ years and WOW for over 5.......I understand the difference between a game that promotes grouping and a game that doesnt. I also understand the differences between the UO community and the WOW community....and its two completely different game experiences.
I have to take issue with your idea that all soloers are former MMORPG enthusiasts that have just gotten fed up with a-holes.
I've met some REALLY cool people in MMORPGs.....some I'm still friends with today. Some that I play different games with today. Almost all of those relationships have come out of necessity....needing some protection from the a-holes, needing some help doing something in game.....or by actively looking for others to compete in PvP or PvE endgame.
If that trigger is never there and you can do everything on your own......then why bother? And what sort of game do you have when the vast majority have that "why bother" attitude?
You have a Ultima Onine Avatar.......do you (or have you) played World of Warcraft? In your experience in UO, did you see half the appathetic people playing UO as you've seen in any given WOW Battleground?
Did you see people PvPing in UO do half the dumb crap repeatedly over and over in UO than you see in any given WOW Battleground?
UO had its fair share of A-Holes...to be sure.....but there were plenty of people there that would give you the shirt off your back. In my UO experience, less people mouthed off and acted anti-social because there were consequenses. There are no consequences in WOW....and the community shows.
I hear ya, and don't disagree. But I was more responding to the posters telling soloists to go play single player games.
However, your scenario is really still very much valid in today's MMO's, as long as you play on PVP servers. Playing on PVP servers is the key to ensure grouping.
For instance in Rift, a very solo friendly game, as long as you are on a PVP server your scenario is the norm not the exception. Soloers tend to join small groups when the going gets tough PVP-wise, especially when doing dailies. And small groups joing larger groups in a kind of escalation quite frequently. The dynamic joining/dropping from groups is actually very prevelant there. I have other issues with that game, but feeling lonely isnt one of them
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2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
I agree on this..If you add enough solo content in a game , you will eventually create a world were you actually are "forced to solo" Because there is little to no point in grouping up on solo quests ..
And solo worlds will create barren and silent worlds. all you solo advocates can argue all you like, you will NOT socialise more or the same in a game that let's you solo all the way to the cap.
It's all in human nature, If something isn't forced, well ..then most will avoid it..
In that case any game with a forced playing style is bound for financial failure, because you can't force people to buy/play said game ;-)
We dont need casuals in our games!!! Errm... Well we DO need casuals to fund and populate our games - But the games should be all about "hardcore" because: We dont need casuals in our games!!!
(repeat ad infinitum)
Going to add my #1 reason for soloing:
I'm in a bad mood, but not such a bad mood that I want to end up on the ignore list of an entire server, get guild kicked, and possibly permabanned from the game. Therefore, I will go off by my lonesome and slay hapless creatures until I'm fit for human company again.
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This is very well said.
My first game was Lineage 2 and there wasn't "solo/group content". There was content.
Some of it one could do solo and some you coulnd't or you had to be high enough level to tackle it.
This is how I think game should be. If one wants to go to an area that is difficult and requires a group then great. If one wants to go and find a place they can solo then great.
Of course with many theme park gamees there are quest hubs and content of a certain level for these quest hub areas and this creates its own problems.
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What you say makes sense and is probably true in many cases, but if you look at the list, what the author seems to imply is that (occaisionally) they find failing embarassing, that they don't want to sacrifice thier game time by helping other players or missing a chance at loot, and that they do not want the commitment or responsiblity that being in a group entails. Just as an example, these are all qualities that are the opposite of what makes a good leader. Good leaders usually have a great deal of confidence in themselves.
From my perspective the opposite of what you say is true. While it may not be the case every time, I find people that prefer to solo tend to do so because they are afraid that people will not like them, or that they aren't good enough and will get laughed at and ridiculed. So instead of ponying up and being a good group leader or member, they take the easier road by soloing, where they don't have to bother with the challenges of socializing with a diverse crowd of real people. I'm not saying that this is bad, just a matter of perspective. The difference is what you expect out of other people and what you are willing to sacrifice and tolerate to make the game fun for everybody.
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They are Massively Multi-Player Online games not Massively Muitplayer Online Groups
They are Massively Multi-Player Online Role Playing Games, and role playing is sort of pointless when you're alone as in a single player RPG.
And no, not everyone can play the role of solitary, disaffected loner, the world needs a broader range of actors to be really entertaining.
And by role playing I don't mean everyone has to act like they're in a LARP, they can just play the role their character was designed for, be it healer, buffer, crowd controller or what have you.
(not a fan of omin-classing which seems to be the new pink or something in the MMORPG world)
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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Don't get me wrong. I really like grouping. I really do. But...
For starters, I hate raids and I almost entirely hate everything that's behind it. i genuinely oppose to orginize my life around this sort of "group content" just because that is the only way to get best available gear and because that is the only reasonable end game content and if you don't follow that path, you are second class citizen.
I hate the repetiotion, that comes with that. Do same thing over and over again, memorize how to deal with this and that, rinse and repeat and if you're lucky enough, you're going to get rewarded with a candy. No, thank you, I'd rather do something exciting. (GW 2 dynamic events plus combat based on dodgin, positioning etc... for instance
What I hate even more, is to wait for for specific class (healer or tank mainly) to show up, because we have to praise omnipresence of the holy trinity. Hopefully, new generation of MMO's will sort that problem out.
To simplify it, i want to have fun, if i play the game. quite o a lot of so called "group content" seems to me like another job or plainly a lot of boredom with some elements of fun.
So therefore I'm all for more "solo oriented" content. Even if that means dynamic, but natural grouping...
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Honestly, I end up soloing most of the time because I started with RuneScape when I was 10-12, and in that game, you basically solo 99% of the time unless you attend an event with your friends or happen to run across someone amiable (and not AFK) while skilling. Perhaps if I had started in a heavily group-oriented MMO, my natural preference would be different (though I did move from RS to DAoC, and I absolutely loved the RvR).
Solo just seems far simpler to me. Go in, do what you want to do, explore, quest, kill things, craft, whatever you feel like. A very limited amount of content will be beyond your reach because of group restrictions, but even then, that's what the guild raid at 8pm is for. I prefer my group content to be structured and organized because that's the best way to deal with lots of people at once, but I don't mind the occasional PUG if my groupmates aren't complete morons. And here's the thing: Just because I solo doesn't mean I don't chat with friends or even people I meet across the game world. There's a difference between wanting to play by yourself and being by yourself.
The arguments of the pro-group posts so far appear to be centered on the following:
1. "Solo-fication" of MMO's results in the rewards of group content becoming "trivial".
This sounds like the grouping fans are more interested in the LOOT than in the actual grouping dynamics.
2. If the game allows players to solo to level-cap, people will avoid grouping.
This sounds like "I'm really interested in levelling as fast as possible, so if solo play gets me there quicker, why should I group ?"
If the majority of people genuinely preferred playing in groups, then they would, and the evolution of MMO's would reflect that preference. However, the opposite seems to be true, in that the majority of people avoid grouping when it is possible to avoid it. Afaik, no MMO has ever "failed" because it had too much solo content, but there have been ones that struggled because they had too little.
The refrain from the pro-grouping set seems to be: "I want the game to force people to group more, so that the game caters more to my preferred playstyle".
Nice article and all true.
Added to that you aren't experiencing "dependancy" so much. Waiting for other players and depending on them to do their thing right can be downright annoying occasionaly. Love grouped play but it has to be balanced with sufficient solo time in my case, for a game to remain interesting.
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Same for me, really. I find it hard to play solo games these days because I feel sort of lonely playing by myself, but I also find it very frustrating trying to communicate with folks (especially through type) about what stage of a quest I am on, what I want to do next, what they want to do, what they've done, etc etc. *yawn*
Having people around me, however, feels crucial to my gaming enjoyment even if I'm not in the mood for interacting much. When I am in the mood, it's great to have the opportunity to chat with the other folks (either in voice chat, or with a bit of roleplay, or simply exchanging greetings and a /bow). Plus, I love the experience of completing a dungeon, or closely fought battleground with good teamwork, but that doesn't seem to happen so often these days because I drift around from game to game and thus don't settle in one guild. Some of the PUG's I've been in have been great, though, and I enjoy helping other players around kill a tricky mob, or somesuch.
All in all, I love to solo, but I enjoy mixing with other players, too.
I like to play solo just to be one of these people. That way, I can ruin other people's day.
I think you pretty much described me, when you described yourself. In referrence to what I highlighted in green...for me, a big part of grouping like this, is wanting to group with people with similar goals and play styles. Like a lot of the other folks, that are here, too many times, I've been stuck with players who just want to zerg through everything. I like to read the quest dialogues, enjoy the storyline, and just try to enjoy the game as much as possible. There are people, out there, like me, but geez...they seem to be a shrinking minority.
I’m a solo player 90% of the time. I don’t hate other people, and can care less about the loot or opinion of the other players.
One of the reasons why I prefer playing solo is due to the fact that I can enjoy all that effort that designers and game developers put in the game. I can see that castle over there on horizon, go through bunch of mobs get somehow through the textures on the roof and observe it from the different perspective.
Second important reason - I don’t like chatting/talking to other people in a virtual world, unless it is related to specific issues related to the gameplay. I have plenty options to have interesting conversation in my real life, and “friendly chat” with average MMORPG player doesn’t get me excited in any way. And in every guild, and almost every group – there is that one “funny guy” or “natural born leader” who keeps talking, and commenting on everything he sees or hears.
For those who says “why don’t you go play the single-player game, if u don’t like grouping”? I’m much more effective doing on my own, then getting together with mediocre group players who cannot survive 20 seconds without healer or supporters. The reason I play MMORPGs is a competition with real people. Having fights 1vs2+ players and win or at least survive is what makes me thrilled. On contrary, it is very hard for me to find any kind of joy on sitting in instance for !!!!hours!!!! and kill several mobs for loot… It is actually called cooperative gameplay, and it has even less in common with MMORPG.
You make good points..:)
And If you look at the points made, you will see that it's all in the design of the game.
The main reason players will avoid grouping is because the content is designed towards solo/single players. There is no fun in playing a game with friends that really is designed for a single player .
Well, I think that the reason we see "If I group I want better loot" is that players are actually afraid now that grouping is so sparse that they will even remove this carrot for groupers..If you took on group content usually ment better rewards.
Good grouping dynamics is a huge key here, unfortunatly the MMO scene is very stagnant in the "holy trinity" tank spank design. We need a good grouping design that will make grouping popular again, and we need it fast.
I'm also against forcing anything in a game like this, grouping should be fun and come naturally, but it must be the main thing to design an MMO around not like in many MMO's nowadays ..It has more soloable areas than group. Often when you play you also need to complete a certain amount of solo missions before you can enter a group area..This IMO forces me to solo.
A good example is a game like Left 4 Dead, NOONE is forcing anything in that game, everyone is totally cool with that you will always need to stick together othervise you will die.
It seems that all those comment forms I filled out when unsubscribing at around lvl 40 or so for so many MMORPGs, where I cited the reason as "You ran out of solo content," was being listened to after all.
I'm guessing that groupers were the most vocal so devs thought they needed to be catered to, but eventually they caught on that solo and duo players is probably a larger potential audience if they are given enough content.
I think most of you are totally missing the whole point of MMO's. Psychological exploitation knows neither "solo" nor "party."
Seriously, seeing you people criticize solo MMO players is like seeing a fat kid berate another fat kid for liking Hershey's without almonds, and then telling him to go eat raw cacao beans instead.
Nice edit. It makes as much sense as the original but in a much smaller space. Your points for socializing outside of grouping seemed moot and antiquated from what I've seen in games.
Rarely do I see people chat on the general channels unless it's linked anal jokes, various internet memes, or talking about being drunk or high (with the additional harassment from your team when instanced PvP isn't going so well).
Trading? The great majority is done in auction houses; what's in trade chat is likely the same content as my previous point.
I forget the third example you gave but it seemed something that hasn't occurred since pre-2004 MMOs as well. The previous poster that stated SPRPGs are better in all aspects of solo gameplay is right on the money.
Having said that I have no problem with players that prefer to solo in multiplayer games, but it's foolish to cry when there isn't enough solo content in a genre that was never meant for solo play.
I am a soloer a lot of the time, sometimes because I like to do it that way (like to do things using only my own steam) and I hate games that force grouping onto you. Especially if it's a lower populated game (SWG, I am looking directly at you!) There is nothing like being gated from content because you cannot find people to play with. Sometimes devs design for the hypothetical well populated game instead of the reality of what it is currently (again, SWG is a prime example. It's about to sunset, has it's lowest population ever and all on one server, but the new content (which is awesome that we got it, dont get me wrong) but it's impossible to do solo and especially impossible to do unbuffed, which again means you need other players to get those buffs, which sadly means you have to play on the same server that is hugely lagged because probably literally 80%+ of the total players are on that one server. It's all or none right now in that game, but they designed it as if everyone had access to things that we don't , i.e. other players.
I have always been a 'guilded soloer' meaning I have a group to talk to and play with in just about any game I play, but I am one of those that end up having to explain that this is a new alt for my main that most people know me as etc... I.e. not Mr Popularity.
I've been Mr Popularity before, in Asheron's Call I was a very popular member of a large guild and sometimes it gets tiresome because everyone wants to send you tells as soon as you log in and everyone wants you to go with them to do xyz and it can get tiresome. Being a celebrity sucks, even online.
Played: Asheron's Call(still the best fantasy MMO!), EQ1, EQ2, Vanguard, DAoC, Horizons, City of Heroes/Villians, WoW (crap), LOTORO, D&D Online, Eve, Anarchy Online, and still playing SWG daily.
The trick that devs, across the board, need to latch onto here is to make things scable. If you take a quest solo, it balances (loot wise as well) to not be over whelming, but also allows for groups to do it (with higher chances of better loot) to encourage grouping. Some games already do this and some do not, and I always say you should err on the side of flexibility. Every game going forward should design this way honestly. They aren't (SOE seems to really not like this type of design as a company) but others do a good job at it (Turbine gets it.)
Flexibility is the key to success with MMOs.
Played: Asheron's Call(still the best fantasy MMO!), EQ1, EQ2, Vanguard, DAoC, Horizons, City of Heroes/Villians, WoW (crap), LOTORO, D&D Online, Eve, Anarchy Online, and still playing SWG daily.