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MMO Combat Sucks
Jimmy_Scythe
Member CommonPosts: 3,586
And I'm not the only person that thinks so.
This kind of combat also has the unfortunate side effect of making MMO players into asshole elitist that think they're smarter than the dirty non-MMO playing peasants. Hate to break it to ya, but being good at remedial math doesn't make you any better than anyone else.
Real strategy and tactics are harder than simply min/maxins some numbers on a spreadsheet.
Comments
what are you doing on a site dedicated to MMORPGs then? Maybe you should look at something like fpsguru.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Are we talking about PvE or PvP? Both?
I'd agree with you and the article on PvE, more specifically end game raid bosses. Outside of the "oooh, shiny gear!" mentality, and the...challenge (?), I don't really see any incentive to bother raiding at end game.
But PvP is a bit more than just dice rolling and remedial math. With the human enemy player dynamic, and the use of CC abilities, and other tactical ideals, it really outshines the button rotation drudgery of PvE. It is far from perfect, but it's certainly a bit more exciting than killing the same boss monster and the trash packs before him a few dozen times.
But the article's comments about Jedis being wimps, I totally agree with that. How you can play a Jedi if it seems as though they've replaced your lightsaber with a nerf sword? Just another reason I won't be playing TOR, but hey, that's just me.
What RPGs have ever had challenging combat that wasn't just arithmetic and fairly obvious decisions? It's a staple element of RPGs: combat based around doing the math and minimizing your risks while maximizing your efficiency.
Elder Scrolls.
My favorite type of combat is kind of like Eldercrolls, Mount & Blade, or Mortal Online. Preferably first person where you have to dodge or block incoming attacks at the right direction,charge your attacks, momentum matters, and spells are primarily projectile.
I think a lot of it lies in the fact that your doing more than pointing and shooting. Your suppose to be skillfully selecting the right skill or spell as the situation requires.
I think were comparing what you do and how you do it. MMORPG is about what you do, FPS is more about how you do it.
MMORPG combat has served its purpose in the past, however with newer games comming out with less focus on what you do (spam DPS) it creates an empty feeling, and i agree games like this should offer some skill in combat, other than the half away spamming of the 3 most efficiant DPS skills.
I think this is why more FPS type aim and attack combat is being incorperated into mmorpg's...theres simple not enough complexity or need for proper skills/spell use and without this thinking me need more doing.
Any combat which has active elements to it. Active blocking (DDO, Witcher, Elder Scrolls...), interrupts (GW), movement in relation to your opponent (all of the above plus AoC).
"Passive combat" is a staple element of old school MMORPGs. It is time to move on. Vindictus, Tera, Guild Wars 2 and many more are all moving forward.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
sorry to burst your bouble but pvp is nothing but run around jumping like a headless chicken, and click on your HP potion , whoever clicks faster wins! there is nothing challenging about pvp at all. the author of this thread is partially right, mmo combat don't have and never will have the depth of a single player game.
endlessages, 10six, planetside, neocron and tabula rasa all had excellent combat. They also had small player bases...Still some of the best mmos ive ever played.
Own, Mine, Defend, Attack, 24/7
I just got up and this probably makes no sense so I'm forced to apologize in advance.
Thanks for the link OP. I really enjoyed the article. I mostly agreed. I do think its a little unfair to pick on Swtor so much though. Has the guy even played it? Regardless......
MMOs have really gone down the D&D path of dice rolling and such. Which is fine. But Ive always thought if nothing else, if they added stylish and realistic battle animations it would be great. But I have yet to see an mmorpg make a fight look exciting or real.
WoW was especially bad. Two characters activating skills and hitting each other back and forth with a sword the rest of the time. When a Tauren and a Gnome fight? When nothing else is going on and they're just whacking at each other I want to see that gnome crawl up the back of the Tauren and stab him in the kneck. I want to see the battle. Not sloppy hits until someone falls face down dead. I want to see parrys, more blocks, and if nothing else I want to see that the characters are in a suspensful state of combat.
Thats not really what the article was about. I got the idea he was more insterested in twitch combat. Such as Elder Scrolls maybe. Which would fit into a game as well.
But all Im saying is if it has to use the Dice system and have those old school RPG elements, can you at least make it look cool? As though they were really fighting?
The author there seems to mainly dislike that combat is too slow. And he's right about most MMORPGs being that way.
At one point, I figured out that in the middle of a battle in Anarchy Online, I could get up, leave the room, go get a drink or some such, come back, and it wouldn't even matter that I had been gone. I quit the game shortly after figuring that out.
Not all games are dreadfully slow like that, though. Champions Online lets you kill most mobs in one or two hits, with only the occasional bosses that necessarily take more than that.
Couldn't agree more with the writer of this article. If M&B guys wasn't there to hold the entire combat mechanism in sword like online gaming, we would still be so much into the old tab targeting with dodge dies rolls.
And there is an other strong grip i have about SWTOR, it the lack of any kind of mechanism or system to put in place the Force in this game. I mean apart from some skill or class name, the force mean nothing. Damn they could have put something. I just have the feeling they really used SW as a skin and nothing else, its just bad, i really expected more from Bioware project of the century damn it. Its just depressing.
Pfft this thread is unbelievable.
So the ability to doge left, right, or backward is more "deep" than having to choose your next skill from douzens of possibilities, each with different consequences, each with circumstatial advantages and disadvantages ?!?!?
I am really not interested in fps and I am not interested in MMOs turning into fps.
Difficulty doesn't make a game better. It certainly doesnt't make a game popular. I agree that MMO combat isn't all that difficult. Angry Birds offers more challenge than the typical MMO quest.
Troll thread? Success!
Dont know if serious or not but I'll bite.
I love MMO combat, its fun, challenging and doenst prefer people with the leetist computers and lowest ping to dominate like in FPS. I wouldnt change a thing about MMO combat because its as close to cpaturing the feel of the original RPG of pen paper games like AD&D.
Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online
Playing: GW2
Waiting on: TESO
Next Flop: Planetside 2
Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
Not more deep but different. There are two distinct challenges in computer games. Twitch-based challenges and mental challenges. MMO's have focused on the second one, some more so than others but still, while FPS-games do the reverse. Is it wrong to try to add twitch-based challenges to MMO's? Not at all. Is it better? Nope, just different. Just like adding RPG-elements to FPS-games.
I have yet to see good combat in MMO.
On one side we have old style combat , like in WoW where there are bazzilion of adds that think for player (enemy cast bars , showing enemy cooldowns , macros - btw I think all of this should be thrown away from mmos,by making restrictive API , so they cannot be written , and API should be updated if someone megane to write above),
On opposite side , FPS , twitch like combat like in Darkfall which imho also dont show ANY skill , unless someone think that faster reaction = skill.
This is same as in old static combat mmo , just in WoW you have to have reaction to gazzilion of bars, cooldowns , etc and in twitch based you have to have good latency and reaction , - this does not equate skill though.
I have YET to see balanced MMO combat system , that is not purely made of millions of skills and icons and is not based mostly on how fast your reaction is , making MMO like FPS games like Call of Duty
MMO combat should not be as fast as in rts or fps games , so older players / worse latency are not at bug disadvantage , but at same time should not be as static and add-on , macro dependant like in WoW and similar games.
There has to be golden - middle resolution to be found , which will be very hard.
I think most threads on combat in MMORPGs can be some of the most useful/constructive topics. Combat is so prevalent in mmorpgs and there is also a wide range from turn-based to fps twitch etc.
This is a good topic to discuss. Even turn-based can be brilliant and it depends on what you are after. Some ppl love the stat builds others the action and movement spontaneity. I've played some fun combat in mmorpgs but more mmorpgs need stronger combat mechanics imo as this is the main interaction possible, which means if it's sub-standard so what if there is a virtual world out there if your hands are tied?
GW2 combat has impressed me with the hybrid of tab-target and action and Firefall looks fun too. Check out OUTER EMPIRES too for a fun sandbox and very different slow pace : )
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
Agreed but more because I think MMO combat lacks both strategy and fun.
MMO combat should be more like chess, a single macro is while not optimal good enough to do almost anything and MMO combat and that tells at least me that the combat needs improvement.
Right now does the guy with the best gear instead of the smartest win (is that elitist thinking in your book?).
Regular MMO combat means stats (incl gear) + attack makes random damage in a dumbed down version of pen and paper mechanics.
I would like a system more based on rock - scissors - paper, where you take your attack + what the oponent is doing and calculate who (or both) that takes damage. Of course you wont have just 3 attacks but instead use a kinda triangle (thrust, slash, parry?) to count out what is happening...
There are several other interesting systems as well including some kind of Tekken styled combo system for console MMOs, but it is time to try to figure out a way to make MMOs more tactical and less about who have the best gear.
Almost all MMOs are semi turnbased with a hidden combat round in them, a gift from D&D.
To think that combat in mmorpgs is finished ultima was the begining and we haven't really had a new system since i guess elder scrolls. Not to mention thats the only game that managed to get it right, I guess it is that technology isn't really ready but it don't seem hard to think of a system that gives players a better feeling of involvement.
I mean don't any rpg fanbois play console games, theres tons of them with wide range of aspects of combat, I know single/multi player is completely different to massively multiplayer.... but there must be a way to make a game that uses a fighting system that actually suits a game thats based around fighting. I know it's rpg but if you just want role play then go play second life or something leave the action to us.
Twitch games are old now these other skill games are just lame its about time we had a game that uses combinations and proper fighting strategy fast paced and all that. It sounds crazy but not hard people just need to innovate.
MoS resurecci
... I'm sorry ???
My first fantasy game, Baldurs Gate, was extremely challenging.
Just recently Dragon Age: Origins has been described as challenging by many and yet was a fair success.
Challenge is a vital point in enjoying a game. A game that lacks enough challenge will bore you. The game may still be enjoyable. For example, I love Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic despite its relative lack of challenge (depends a bit upon your character build, with a Dualwielding Powerattacking Scoundrel(7)/Guardian(13) even the final battle is a breeze, while a force focussed darkside Consolar had some serious issues thanks to his lack of DC (all the Wis / DC giving items are lightside restricted in SW:KotOR).
I am FPS player but is a Role playing game the whole point is the build up your character stats,gear and abliites.It is not that combat is boring but your character should matter over twitch skill.
Combat should be made more exciting but not expense of the RPG.I am exicted of about Kingdom of Amalur because it is Oblivion style rpg but they put in hack and slash God war style action combat.You need a combination.
A mixture of two is needed not suprising Guild Wars 2 look to be a good mix with dodging and limited amount skills allowed on the skill bar and ability to switch weapons on the fly.It has structure pvp which basically FPS mode which takes the armor and the gear out of picture and World pvp which allows the crazy super power gear and your character growth in picture.
MMO combat sucks but the article ingored AoC and Tera to rail on SWTOR.This is a message to both side FPS converts and RPG hardcore.The industry is big enough to support multiple style of games not all games should be slower rpg combat and all games should be CoD MMOs.Their is a place when somebody makes article like this just point them out
Tera
Darkfall
Mortal Online
AoC
Planetside 2
Firefall
Blade and Soul
Tradional MMO combat is not going anywhere but more Action based RPG are coming too,The industry can support both it is not either or thing.