If you continue to read the posts in the link provided by the OP. The developers and CM response really tells you a lot. It show you their focus, priorities and the direction the game is going. This game is basically an arena match . Mortal Online is no "sandbox"
This game is a sandbox. I don't even know how you can debate that. The devs are focusing on territory control because they're trying to appease their player base that want to give more purpose to guilds. They are also working on ai, gui, and trade tools at the same time. With the territory control system thats coming you can expand your guilds empire,conquer land and cities/towns, freely place control structurs, knock down others, set taxes, set laws, and outlaw other players. This isn't sandbox? Then wtf is.
Everything you mentioned is not in the game yet so yes right now it isn't a sandbox. But I am sure you are like most MO supporters you play on potential.. When all that is in and working give us a line and tell us it has reached sandbox status.
The rest of us are talking about the game as of now not 6 months from now. That is a tall order for 3 coders to be working on all at the same time as well.
Haven't they been working on AI/GUI?trade tools since release?? But this time they really mean it?
This game isn't a sandbox? Are you serious guy? If this game isn't a sandbox then theres only 2 sandboxes in existence.I don't think you know what a sandbox is.
Ofcourse I do. A sandbox has tools MO has very limited tools and the ones they have need tweaking or are broken. You said MO is a sandbox because of stuff on the way. MO is a deathmatch with crafting.
If you continue to read the posts in the link provided by the OP. The developers and CM response really tells you a lot. It show you their focus, priorities and the direction the game is going. This game is basically an arena match . Mortal Online is no "sandbox"
This game is a sandbox. I don't even know how you can debate that. The devs are focusing on territory control because they're trying to appease their player base that want to give more purpose to guilds. They are also working on ai, gui, and trade tools at the same time. With the territory control system thats coming you can expand your guilds empire,conquer land and cities/towns, freely place control structurs, knock down others, set taxes, set laws, and outlaw other players. This isn't sandbox? Then wtf is.
Everything you mentioned is not in the game yet so yes right now it isn't a sandbox. But I am sure you are like most MO supporters you play on potential.. When all that is in and working give us a line and tell us it has reached sandbox status.
The rest of us are talking about the game as of now not 6 months from now. That is a tall order for 3 coders to be working on all at the same time as well.
Haven't they been working on AI/GUI?trade tools since release?? But this time they really mean it?
This game isn't a sandbox? Are you serious guy? If this game isn't a sandbox then theres only 2 sandboxes in existence.I don't think you know what a sandbox is.
Ofcourse I do. A sandbox has tools MO has very limited tools and the nes they have need tweaking or are broken. You said MO is a sandbox because of stuff on the way. MO is a deathmatch with crafting.
No I didn't say it was sandbox because of stuff on the way, but nice reading comprehension. Try reading in context next time. It's not even worth arguing with you because it's obvious that your hatred is blinding. But this game is a sandbox, and i implore you to try to prove otherwise. The fact that most of the players left predominatly enjoy pvping doens't mean there isn't tools or sand to do anyhting else.
You are free to do whatever you want in this game, and if you wanted, you could have your main be a bowcrater who sets up a vendor on his house that you built yourself with wood you chopped and metal you mined while fishing in the lake next to your house on the weekends, thats not sandbox? And there is most definitely a portion of the population that does only non-pvp activites. The game is obviously missing sand and tools (mainly ai and trading tools), but to say its not a sandbox is ridiculous.
If you continue to read the posts in the link provided by the OP. The developers and CM response really tells you a lot. It show you their focus, priorities and the direction the game is going. This game is basically an arena match . Mortal Online is no "sandbox"
This game is a sandbox. I don't even know how you can debate that. The devs are focusing on territory control because they're trying to appease their player base that want to give more purpose to guilds. They are also working on ai, gui, and trade tools at the same time. With the territory control system thats coming you can expand your guilds empire,conquer land and cities/towns, freely place control structurs, knock down others, set taxes, set laws, and outlaw other players. This isn't sandbox? Then wtf is.
Everything you mentioned is not in the game yet so yes right now it isn't a sandbox. But I am sure you are like most MO supporters you play on potential.. When all that is in and working give us a line and tell us it has reached sandbox status.
The rest of us are talking about the game as of now not 6 months from now. That is a tall order for 3 coders to be working on all at the same time as well.
Haven't they been working on AI/GUI?trade tools since release?? But this time they really mean it?
This game isn't a sandbox? Are you serious guy? If this game isn't a sandbox then theres only 2 sandboxes in existence.I don't think you know what a sandbox is.
Ofcourse I do. A sandbox has tools MO has very limited tools and the nes they have need tweaking or are broken. You said MO is a sandbox because of stuff on the way. MO is a deathmatch with crafting.
No I didn't say it was sandbox because of stuff on the way, but nice reading comprehension. Try reading in context next time. It's not even worth arguing with you because it's obvious that your hatred is blinding. But this game is a sandbox, and i implore you to try to prove otherwise. The fact that most of the players left predominatly enjoy pvping doens't mean there isn't tools or sand to do anyhting else.
You are free to do whatever you want in this game, and if you wanted, you could have your main be a bowcrater who sets up a vendor on his house that you built yourself with wood you chopped and metal you mined while fishing in the lake next to your house on the weekends, thats not sandbox? And there is most definitely a portion of the population that does only non-pvp activites. The game is obviously missing sand and tools (mainly ai and trading tools), but to say its not a sandbox is ridiculous.
I can read just find. It is obvious your fanboism blinds you. I am basing MO's sanbox on other sanboxes I have played and it falls very short. It is pretty bad a game in the 90s has more tools than MO does now.
It was not just pvp players that left it was pvp, pve, traders, explorers. Why did all these different playstyles leave the game? Because the game lacks in all departments. I will make you happy and call it sandbox light.
If you continue to read the posts in the link provided by the OP. The developers and CM response really tells you a lot. It show you their focus, priorities and the direction the game is going. This game is basically an arena match . Mortal Online is no "sandbox"
This game is a sandbox. I don't even know how you can debate that. The devs are focusing on territory control because they're trying to appease their player base that want to give more purpose to guilds. They are also working on ai, gui, and trade tools at the same time. With the territory control system thats coming you can expand your guilds empire,conquer land and cities/towns, freely place control structurs, knock down others, set taxes, set laws, and outlaw other players. This isn't sandbox? Then wtf is.
Everything you mentioned is not in the game yet so yes right now it isn't a sandbox. But I am sure you are like most MO supporters you play on potential.. When all that is in and working give us a line and tell us it has reached sandbox status.
The rest of us are talking about the game as of now not 6 months from now. That is a tall order for 3 coders to be working on all at the same time as well.
Haven't they been working on AI/GUI?trade tools since release?? But this time they really mean it?
This game isn't a sandbox? Are you serious guy? If this game isn't a sandbox then theres only 2 sandboxes in existence.I don't think you know what a sandbox is.
Ofcourse I do. A sandbox has tools MO has very limited tools and the nes they have need tweaking or are broken. You said MO is a sandbox because of stuff on the way. MO is a deathmatch with crafting.
No I didn't say it was sandbox because of stuff on the way, but nice reading comprehension. Try reading in context next time. It's not even worth arguing with you because it's obvious that your hatred is blinding. But this game is a sandbox, and i implore you to try to prove otherwise. The fact that most of the players left predominatly enjoy pvping doens't mean there isn't tools or sand to do anyhting else.
You are free to do whatever you want in this game, and if you wanted, you could have your main be a bowcrater who sets up a vendor on his house that you built yourself with wood you chopped and metal you mined while fishing in the lake next to your house on the weekends, thats not sandbox? And there is most definitely a portion of the population that does only non-pvp activites. The game is obviously missing sand and tools (mainly ai and trading tools), but to say its not a sandbox is ridiculous.
I can read just find. It is obvious your fanboism blinds you. I am basing MO's sanbox on other sanboxes I have played and it falls very short. It is pretty bad a game in the 90s has more tools than MO does now.
It was not just pvp players that left it was pvp, pve, traers, explorers. Because the game lacks in all departments. I will make you happy and call it sandbox light.
Fishing? Is the other half of that in btw??
Nice job avoiding all my arguments. But how does a lack of trade and social tools make it not a sandbox? Please do tell, im still waiting. Do you or do you not have freedom to do basically anything you want? Ya it is ridiculous that sandboxes in the 90's had more tools then mo has now. It's equally ridiculous that mmos in the 90's had more tools than basically any mmo of the modern time. By your logic, does that mean none of the recent mmo's are mmo's?
If a cup is only half filled with water, does it cease being a cup of water? Your making no coherent argument, please do tell why this isn't a sandbox? like i said, if this game isn't a sandbox, then what is?
Sandbox light? No, it's just a sandbox. Gw2 isn't a themepark light just because it doesn't have hamsterwheel raiding, its a themepark.
I understand that you commit a lot of time to hate this game, but trying to argue that this isn't a sandbox is silly. If you wanted to argue that this game was crap, then yes, but thats a completely different discussion.
If you continue to read the posts in the link provided by the OP. The developers and CM response really tells you a lot. It show you their focus, priorities and the direction the game is going. This game is basically an arena match . Mortal Online is no "sandbox"
This game is a sandbox. I don't even know how you can debate that. The devs are focusing on territory control because they're trying to appease their player base that want to give more purpose to guilds. They are also working on ai, gui, and trade tools at the same time. With the territory control system thats coming you can expand your guilds empire,conquer land and cities/towns, freely place control structurs, knock down others, set taxes, set laws, and outlaw other players. This isn't sandbox? Then wtf is.
Everything you mentioned is not in the game yet so yes right now it isn't a sandbox. But I am sure you are like most MO supporters you play on potential.. When all that is in and working give us a line and tell us it has reached sandbox status.
The rest of us are talking about the game as of now not 6 months from now. That is a tall order for 3 coders to be working on all at the same time as well.
Haven't they been working on AI/GUI?trade tools since release?? But this time they really mean it?
This game isn't a sandbox? Are you serious guy? If this game isn't a sandbox then theres only 2 sandboxes in existence.I don't think you know what a sandbox is.
Ofcourse I do. A sandbox has tools MO has very limited tools and the nes they have need tweaking or are broken. You said MO is a sandbox because of stuff on the way. MO is a deathmatch with crafting.
No I didn't say it was sandbox because of stuff on the way, but nice reading comprehension. Try reading in context next time. It's not even worth arguing with you because it's obvious that your hatred is blinding. But this game is a sandbox, and i implore you to try to prove otherwise. The fact that most of the players left predominatly enjoy pvping doens't mean there isn't tools or sand to do anyhting else.
You are free to do whatever you want in this game, and if you wanted, you could have your main be a bowcrater who sets up a vendor on his house that you built yourself with wood you chopped and metal you mined while fishing in the lake next to your house on the weekends, thats not sandbox? And there is most definitely a portion of the population that does only non-pvp activites. The game is obviously missing sand and tools (mainly ai and trading tools), but to say its not a sandbox is ridiculous.
I can read just find. It is obvious your fanboism blinds you. I am basing MO's sanbox on other sanboxes I have played and it falls very short. It is pretty bad a game in the 90s has more tools than MO does now.
It was not just pvp players that left it was pvp, pve, traers, explorers. Because the game lacks in all departments. I will make you happy and call it sandbox light.
Fishing? Is the other half of that in btw??
Nice job avoiding all my arguments. But how does a lack of trade and social tools make it not a sandbox? Please do tell, im still waiting. Do you or do you not have freedom to do basically anything you want? Ya it is ridiculous that sandboxes in the 90's had more tools then mo has now. It's equally ridiculous that mmos in the 90's had more tools than basically any mmo of the modern time. By your logic, does that mean none of the recent mmo's are mmo's?
If a cup is only half filled with water, does it cease being a cup of water? Your making no coherent argument, please do tell why this isn't a sandbox? like i said, if this game isn't a sandbox, then what is?
Sandbox light? No, it's just a sandbox. Gw2 isn't a themepark light just because it doesn't have hamsterwheel raiding, its a themepark.
I understand that you commit a lot of time to hate this game, but trying to argue that this isn't a sandbox is silly. If you wanted to argue that this game was crap, then yes, but thats a completely different discussion.
I do not know how me saying an MO in the 90s has more tools than MO has now translate into what you are saying about MMOs. It is not my fault MO has a small percentage of tools any other sandbox I have played.
It is ok some people have higher standards than others that is why there are $20 hookers and $1000 hookers.
Have fun in your sandbox with little sand and keep talking about features that are coming nest week or soon(tm).
Well because you don't want to have an actual conversation as to why the game isn't a sandbox (according to you, most likely because you have no argument besides disapointment), I'll say this: I've played mmos for a long time, and it seems to me that the cheap hookers are working much harder.
Well because you don't want to have an actual conversation as to why the game isn't a sandbox (according to you, most likely because you have no argument besides disapointment), I'll say this: I've played mmos for a long time, and it seems to me that the cheap hookers are working much harder.
And indeed, I intend to have fun lol...
You think it is a sandbox I don't based on other sandboxes I have played. Due to those sandboxes having more tools. I am much harder to please than you. Obviously there are a lot of people like me or MO would have a much higher retention rate.
Well because you don't want to have an actual conversation as to why the game isn't a sandbox (according to you, most likely because you have no argument besides disapointment), I'll say this: I've played mmos for a long time, and it seems to me that the cheap hookers are working much harder.
And indeed, I intend to have fun lol...
You think it is a sandbox I don't based on other sandboxes I have played. Due to those sandboxes having more tools. I am much harder to please than you. Obviously there are a lot of people like me or MO would have a much higher retention rate.
Which brings us back to the question, why is it not a sandbox? You think it's not a sandbox because the other sandboxes you played were more complete and you enjoyed them better. I understand this, what I don't understand is how your linking the quality of the game to the genre of the game. Like I said, if you want to argue that its a crappy sandbox, thats a different argument. This isn't a discussion of the game, its a discussion of logic, and in this game, you have freedom to do whatever you want, which is what makes a sandbox, a sandbox.
Saying MO is not a sandbox because it has "too few tools" or "too little sand" is obviously wrong. The game design is closer to "sandbox" than any other model I can think of:
Both character development and gameplay are entirely open, the game does not force you to choose a pre-defined template.
There is no "storyline" to follow.
There are no quests to lead you from one area to another in a linear progression.
There is no rigid level-based system to determine what skills you can train at certain points of your character development.
There are no "zones" that restrict entry based on your level.
Saying it is a "bad" or "limited" sandbox (your subjective judgment) is acceptable, but that doesn't mean it's not a sandbox. The amount of options in the game are still limited, and often buggy or broken, but it is actually slowly improving.
The pace of improvement is just much too slow for most people, BUT nobody can honestly say that MO has not improved since launch
Would one of you stating that MO is a sandbox please define the term for me, or this discussion has zero context.
Most of the things listed I can do in WoW or EQ, both of which are derided as the least "sandbox" games around. The term has become so devalued by developers and gamers desperate for a new UO that it no longer has any meaning.
Let's just take the above post -
1) I do not have to choose a pre-defined template in WoW either, I have talents, augments etc to vary my character. If you actually mean "no classes", then SWG was not a sandbox as it had character classes.
2) There is a story in MO (mostly in Swedish apparently but nm) and things like the Risar invasion were meant to be part of that. I don't have to follow that story in MO, but I also don't have to follow the story in WoW.
3) Lots of games don't have a linear progression via quests model, EQ for eg. Was EQ a sandbox?
4) MO has a rigid skill system. I can't learn advanced smithing skills without learning the earlier skills first. I have no option to skip them. In WoW I can get to max crafting on character that hasn't left their starting area.
5) EQ had easily accessible zones (in fact there were very few item/lvl locked zones) that you could go in at any level. You'd die horribly but their was no restriction on entry.
Saying "sandbox" doesn't mean it's a sandbox if the term no longer has any meaning. Can you provide a definition?
Would one of you stating that MO is a sandbox please define the term for me, or this discussion has zero context.
Most of the things listed I can do in WoW or EQ, both of which are derided as the least "sandbox" games around. The term has become so devalued by developers and gamers desperate for a new UO that it no longer has any meaning.
Let's just take the above post -
1) I do not have to choose a pre-defined template in WoW either, I have talents, augments etc to vary my character. If you actually mean "no classes", then SWG was not a sandbox as it had character classes.
So, you're saying that in WoW, any class you pick can learn any skill from any of the other classes ? And if you decide at some point that you'd like to swap your melee skills for magery, that you could do that on the same character ?
2) There is a story in MO (mostly in Swedish apparently but nm) and things like the Risar invasion were meant to be part of that. I don't have to follow that story in MO, but I also don't have to follow the story in WoW.
Agreed, story is optional in most games nowadays, that was not a good example
3) Lots of games don't have a linear progression via quests model, EQ for eg. Was EQ a sandbox?
Most level-based games have linear progression in the sense that a character has to keep moving to a "higher-tier zone" to continue gaining XP. This means that the open-world content of the lower-level zones become trivial to the character, often to the extent that creatures don't even drop loot.
4) MO has a rigid skill system. I can't learn advanced smithing skills without learning the earlier skills first. I have no option to skip them. In WoW I can get to max crafting on character that hasn't left their starting area.
MO does not have a rigid skill system, it has a structured skill system. In each skill tree, certain skills have prerequisites, yes, but there is no rule that says you're character can't learn any particular skill tree. The only limit is your total pool of skillpoints, which stop you from learning ALL the skills in the game on one character AT THE SAME TIME.
5) EQ had easily accessible zones (in fact there were very few item/lvl locked zones) that you could go in at any level. You'd die horribly but their was no restriction on entry.
I concede that quite a few level-based games don't lock you out of content purely on level
Saying "sandbox" doesn't mean it's a sandbox if the term no longer has any meaning. Can you provide a definition?
In arguing the validity of the list, you are taking one feature from one game and comparing it to another game, and drawing the conclusion that the two games are therefore identical in all aspects.
You cannot take a list of features from ONE game and counter them individually with a comparison to a different game each time. It's the combination of features in one game that make the whole.
Compare this list of features to one specific other game, and see how it scores:
Can your character learn any skill that exists in the game ?
Can your character learn to use any weapon that exists in the game, including magic ?
Can your character wear every single piece of armour in the game ?
Can you build your own house in the game ?
Can your guild build a keep or castle and claim territory ?
Can you decide which ingredients to use when you craft an item, or vary the amount of ingredients used in crafting a certain recipe ?
Does your character have control of his own development choices, or does the game dictate when you are allowed to access certain things ?
If your game of choice can answer "yes" to all the above, then it is most likely a sandbox. There may well be some "themepark" games that have one or two of these features, but not ALL of them together in one game.
There is no definitive list of sandbox features. The deciding factor really is how much freedom the player is given in the game, and how many alternative playstyles are accomodated (other than "get to max level and raid for purples").
In arguing the validity of the list, you are taking one feature from one game and comparing it to another game, and drawing the conclusion that the two games are therefore identical in all aspects.
You cannot take a list of features from ONE game and counter them individually with a comparison to a different game each time. It's the combination of features in one game that make the whole.
Compare this list of features to one specific other game, and see how it scores:
Can your character learn any skill that exists in the game ?
Can your character learn to use any weapon that exists in the game, including magic ?
Can your character wear every single piece of armour in the game ?
Can you build your own house in the game ?
Can your guild build a keep or castle and claim territory ?
Can you decide which ingredients to use when you craft an item, or vary the amount of ingredients used in crafting a certain recipe ?
Does your character have control of his own development choices, or does the game dictate when you are allowed to access certain things ?
If your game of choice can answer "yes" to all the above, then it is most likely a sandbox. There may well be some "themepark" games that have one or two of these features, but not ALL of them together in one game.
There is no definitive list of sandbox features. The deciding factor really is how much freedom the player is given in the game, and how many alternative playstyles are accomodated (other than "get to max level and raid for purples").
......so now you picked some MO-specific properties and put them in yes/no questions, but you haven't explained why those features/properties turn a game into a sandbox.
Does being able to learn any skill that exists in the game turn a game into a sandbox? Does being able to use any weapon in the game turn the game into a sandbox? And armor? WoW could have all 3 of those features and it wouldn't turn the game into a sandbox.
Should I care if I can choose my ingredients for my weapon? WoW could have that, it wouldn't turn the game into a sandbox.
Does owning a house turn a game into a sandbox? WoW could have that, it wouldn't turn the game into a sandbox.
You simply don't seem to know how to define a sandbox. So why tell us all that there's no better sandbox choice than MO? Why can't you find an arguement that you can explain? Ask yourself those question in honesty and you will reach a real conclusion.
MO'S gameplay doesn't rotate around player-created content. That's why it isn't a sandbox.
In arguing the validity of the list, you are taking one feature from one game and comparing it to another game, and drawing the conclusion that the two games are therefore identical in all aspects.
You cannot take a list of features from ONE game and counter them individually with a comparison to a different game each time. It's the combination of features in one game that make the whole.
Compare this list of features to one specific other game, and see how it scores:
Can your character learn any skill that exists in the game ?
Can your character learn to use any weapon that exists in the game, including magic ?
Can your character wear every single piece of armour in the game ?
Can you build your own house in the game ?
Can your guild build a keep or castle and claim territory ?
Can you decide which ingredients to use when you craft an item, or vary the amount of ingredients used in crafting a certain recipe ?
Does your character have control of his own development choices, or does the game dictate when you are allowed to access certain things ?
If your game of choice can answer "yes" to all the above, then it is most likely a sandbox. There may well be some "themepark" games that have one or two of these features, but not ALL of them together in one game.
There is no definitive list of sandbox features. The deciding factor really is how much freedom the player is given in the game, and how many alternative playstyles are accomodated (other than "get to max level and raid for purples").
......so now you picked some MO-specific properties and put them in yes/no questions, but you haven't explained why those features/properties turn a game into a sandbox.
Does being able to learn any skill that exists in the game turn a game into a sandbox? Does being able to use any weapon in the game turn the game into a sandbox? And armor? WoW could have all 3 of those features and it wouldn't turn the game into a sandbox.
Should I care if I can choose my ingredients for my weapon? WoW could have that, it wouldn't turn the game into a sandbox.
Does owning a house turn a game into a sandbox? WoW could have that, it wouldn't turn the game into a sandbox.
You simply don't seem to know how to define a sandbox. So why tell us all that there's no better sandbox choice than MO? Why can't you find an arguement that you can explain? Ask yourself those question in honesty and you will reach a real conclusion.
MO'S gameplay doesn't rotate around player-created content. That's why it isn't a sandbox.
So, you're saying that in WoW, any class you pick can learn any skill from any of the other classes ? And if you decide at some point that you'd like to swap your melee skills for magery, that you could do that on the same character ?
You said you were locked into a pre-defined template, in WoW I am not. I did ask if you meant classes, and pointed to SWG as a game with classes that is regarded as a sandbox.
Agreed, story is optional in most games nowadays, that was not a good example
Stories should come from the players within a framework set by the world and lore. But that's just my opinion.
Most level-based games have linear progression in the sense that a character has to keep moving to a "higher-tier zone" to continue gaining XP. This means that the open-world content of the lower-level zones become trivial to the character, often to the extent that creatures don't even drop loot.
A newbie MO char starts by killing rabbits or chopping trees, if they went to the Spider Queen they'd be dead in seconds. To the people fighting the Spider Queen, the rabbits are worthless. How is that different to what you describe?
MO does not have a rigid skill system, it has a structured skill system. In each skill tree, certain skills have prerequisites, yes, but there is no rule that says you're character can't learn any particular skill tree. The only limit is your total pool of skillpoints, which stop you from learning ALL the skills in the game on one character AT THE SAME TIME.
You stated - "There is no rigid level-based system to determine what skills you can train at certain points of your character development." So there are mechanism to determine what skills you can learn in MO, as you just admitted. A barrier to learning the skill is a barrier however you look at it. Are you actually going back to the "no classes" argument?
In arguing the validity of the list, you are taking one feature from one game and comparing it to another game, and drawing the conclusion that the two games are therefore identical in all aspects.
I didn't make that claim at all. I just asked you to define sandbox, simple as that.
You cannot take a list of features from ONE game and counter them individually with a comparison to a different game each time. It's the combination of features in one game that make the whole.
Stop listing MO features and define sandbox then as even you admit some of your bullet points were not valid. Give a definition of sandbox and then we can compare MO to it, instead of trying to define sandbox to fit MO.
If your game of choice can answer "yes" to all the above, then it is most likely a sandbox. There may well be some "themepark" games that have one or two of these features, but not ALL of them together in one game.
Lots of games provide more than "one or two" of those features, and most people consider them anything but sandbox. You are putting the cart before the horse in trying to call MO sandbox without defining that word.
There is no definitive list of sandbox features. The deciding factor really is how much freedom the player is given in the game, and how many alternative playstyles are accomodated (other than "get to max level and raid for purples").
On that basis, MO is definitely not a sandbox. Players have very little freedom and only the PVP playstyle is accomodated.
The reality of this is that "sandbox" means different things to different people. MO has sandbox character progression, and that's about it. It is because the game is skill based and not class based.
It actually has almost nothing else, and much less that works properly. I mean, if your goal is to love MO because it's "Sandbox" as determined by the features you guys have listed above, then you may as well swap over to Darkfall which does all of these things better than MO will ever do them. The reality of MO is that it was entirely based on the concept of stealing ideas from UO, from statloss, to "red" status, to housing, to spells, to Henrik admitting as much. And they have done such a piss poor job, the only thing that I see in this "sandbox" is the turd that the developers left behind and called it a game.
......so now you picked some MO-specific properties and put them in yes/no questions, but you haven't explained why those features/properties turn a game into a sandbox.
Does being able to learn any skill that exists in the game turn a game into a sandbox? Does being able to use any weapon in the game turn the game into a sandbox? And armor? WoW could have all 3 of those features and it wouldn't turn the game into a sandbox.
Should I care if I can choose my ingredients for my weapon? WoW could have that, it wouldn't turn the game into a sandbox.
Does owning a house turn a game into a sandbox? WoW could have that, it wouldn't turn the game into a sandbox.
You simply don't seem to know how to define a sandbox. So why tell us all that there's no better sandbox choice than MO? Why can't you find an arguement that you can explain? Ask yourself those question in honesty and you will reach a real conclusion.
MO'S gameplay doesn't rotate around player-created content. That's why it isn't a sandbox.
Disclaimer: I don't play MO, don't care about MO, I just saw the thread on the activity list.
Fist: A placeholder is a system that is put IN PLACE of a system that HASN'T BEEN PUT IN at all. An NPC dropping raw materials that make up the items that the NPC carries becuase the skill and systems to reprocess haven't been put in, is a placeholder. An NPC merchant who sells a material that is supposed to be got by picking a plant, but can't be obtained because the plant hasn't been put in the game, is a placeholder. Representing mulliple NPC merchants with the same NPC model because the other models haven't been made and implimented, is a placeholder.
Fishing isn't a placeholder, it's just impcomlete, and then only imcomplete because the devs have said there is more to add to it. Cooking is the same. It's a system that isn't finished because they said so. By all accounts, according the playerbase, the cooking system itself is done. It's just not balanced, as the guy in the OP copy/ pasted is clearly complaining about. Which is kind of funny in itself that the OP quoted a guy who's complaining about raw materials being ALMOST as good as cooked ones, and clearly asking the devs to BALANCE this, but somehow manages to turn it into a slant on SV that they implimented a placeholder system.
Blizzard has been balancing WoW since day one, does that mean the games has been a placeholder for the game itself all these years? Blizzard has altered every class, to the point that playing anyone class in WoW today is NOTHING like it was on day one, does that mean that every class in the game is just a placeholder because they keep tweaking and balancing them? No.
Secondly: UO isn't, nor was it ever, a sandbox because it revolved around playergenerated content. Elderscrolls isn't a sandbox becuase of player generated content, infact you can't generate any of your own content playing elderscrolls. Baldurs gate had no player generated content, and it was a sandbox. Grand theft auto is a sandbox, and I can't make my own content. Neverwinter nights isn't a sandbox, yet anyone can make their own content for that game. UO never even gave you the tools to generate player made content. You couldn't make a dungeon for other people to explore in UO. SWG had tools for player generated content, it was also class based, and as far as I could tell it's also a themepark. SWG had sandbox features, but wasn't a full-fledged sandbox. Darkfall has some tools to allow for player generated content, but it was a sandbox before those tools were implimented, even if it is a poorly contrived sandbox. Ryzom was a sandbox long before the Ryzom ring was implimented.
Player created content has NOTHING to do with a game being a sandbox. A skill system has NOTHING to do with a sandbox. Housing has NOTHING to do with a sandbox. Territory has NOTHING to do with a sandbox. These are all things that add to a sandbox.
A sandbox can have classes, typically they're governed by the player and not hardcoded, but they're classes non-the-less. Everyone of my characters in Oblivion has a "class", I can either choose a premade template, or make one up on my own; regardless it's a class. EQ2 has classes, but I can still do "effectively" whatever I want. I can be a crafter, a merchant, an adventurer, an explorer, a harvester. I can go were I want in EQ2 without restrictions, and I even have my own home. EQ2 isn't a true sandbox, but it invests heavily on providing a feeling of freedom by using sandboxy features. WoW is as far from a sandbox as you can get, and for only one reason, everything is governed by your characters class level and that is governed solely by gaining XP through killing stuff.
A sandbox ONLY MEANS that I'm NOT REQUIRED to follow a set progression path. Whether that be through story, proffesion, class, or level. I'm free to take whatever path I wish without being restrained by mechanics that require me to follow a lineare path THAT DICTATES THE ENTIRETY OF MY GAMEPLAY EXPERIENCE. IE: in order to craft an item I have to be level X in whatever my character class is, and in order to get to level X I have to go to Y zone and do Z amount of quests or kill 1000000000 pigs.
PS: @Moreplex, with every post you made in this thread you made it pretty clear that you don't know what you're talking about, and simply disagreing for the sake of trying to make MO look bad. You're clearly VERY emphatic about your hate; to the point of absolutely absurd.
A game will present itself as either good or bad. It doesn't need, most definately not after almost a year and a half, halfassed arguements with zero logic either for or against it for people to know the state of the game. Everyone knows that MO isn't finished, everyone knows it needs a lot of work, everyone knows SV is a young inexperienced studio making a very ambitious game. Seriously, it doesn't need a borderline troll to make it look bad.
......so now you picked some MO-specific properties and put them in yes/no questions, but you haven't explained why those features/properties turn a game into a sandbox.
Does being able to learn any skill that exists in the game turn a game into a sandbox? Does being able to use any weapon in the game turn the game into a sandbox? And armor? WoW could have all 3 of those features and it wouldn't turn the game into a sandbox.
Should I care if I can choose my ingredients for my weapon? WoW could have that, it wouldn't turn the game into a sandbox.
Does owning a house turn a game into a sandbox? WoW could have that, it wouldn't turn the game into a sandbox.
You simply don't seem to know how to define a sandbox. So why tell us all that there's no better sandbox choice than MO? Why can't you find an arguement that you can explain? Ask yourself those question in honesty and you will reach a real conclusion.
MO'S gameplay doesn't rotate around player-created content. That's why it isn't a sandbox.
Disclaimer: I don't play MO, don't care about MO, I just saw the thread on the activity list.
Fist: A placeholder is a system that is put IN PLACE of a system that HASN'T BEEN PUT IN at all. An NPC dropping raw materials that make up the items that the NPC carries becuase the skill and systems to reprocess haven't been put in, is a placeholder. An NPC merchant who sells a material that is supposed to be got by picking a plant, but can't be obtained because the plant hasn't been put in the game, is a placeholder. Representing mulliple NPC merchants with the same NPC model because the other models haven't been made and implimented, is a placeholder.
Fishing isn't a placeholder, it's just impcomlete, and then only imcomplete because the devs have said there is more to add to it. Cooking is the same. It's a system that isn't finished because they said so. By all accounts, according the playerbase, the cooking system itself is done. It's just not balanced, as the guy in the OP copy/ pasted is clearly complaining about. Which is kind of funny in itself that the OP quoted a guy who's complaining about raw materials being ALMOST as good as cooked ones, and clearly asking the devs to BALANCE this, but somehow manages to turn it into a slant on SV that they implimented a placeholder system.
Blizzard has been balancing WoW since day one, does that mean the games has been a placeholder for the game itself all these years? Blizzard has altered every class, to the point that playing anyone class in WoW today is NOTHING like it was on day one, does that mean that every class in the game is just a placeholder because they keep tweaking and balancing them? No.
Secondly: UO isn't, nor was it ever, a sandbox because it revolved around playergenerated content. Elderscrolls isn't a sandbox becuase of player generated content, infact you can't generate any of your own content playing elderscrolls. Baldurs gate had no player generated content, and it was a sandbox. Grand theft auto is a sandbox, and I can't make my own content. Neverwinter nights isn't a sandbox, yet anyone can make their own content for that game. UO never even gave you the tools to generate player made content. You couldn't make a dungeon for other people to explore in UO. SWG had tools for player generated content, it was also class based, and as far as I could tell it's also a themepark. SWG had sandbox features, but wasn't a full-fledged sandbox. Darkfall has some tools to allow for player generated content, but it was a sandbox before those tools were implimented, even if it is a poorly contrived sandbox. Ryzom was a sandbox long before the Ryzom ring was implimented.
Player created content has NOTHING to do with a game being a sandbox. A skill system has NOTHING to do with a sandbox. Housing has NOTHING to do with a sandbox. Territory has NOTHING to do with a sandbox. These are all things that add to a sandbox.
A sandbox can have classes, typically they're governed by the player and not hardcoded, but they're classes non-the-less. Everyone of my characters in Oblivion has a "class", I can either choose a premade template, or make one up on my own; regardless it's a class. EQ2 has classes, but I can still do "effectively" whatever I want. I can be a crafter, a merchant, an adventurer, an explorer, a harvester. I can go were I want in EQ2 without restrictions, and I even have my own home. EQ2 isn't a true sandbox, but it invests heavily on providing a feeling of freedom by using sandboxy features. WoW is as far from a sandbox as you can get, and for only one reason, everything is governed by your characters class level and that is governed solely by gaining XP through killing stuff.
A sandbox ONLY MEANS that I'm NOT REQUIRED to follow a set progression path. Whether that be through story, proffesion, class, or level. I'm free to take whatever path I wish without being restrained by mechanics that require me to follow a lineare path THAT DICTATES THE ENTIRETY OF MY GAMEPLAY EXPERIENCE. IE: in order to craft an item I have to be level X in whatever my character class is, and in order to get to level X I have to go to Y zone and do Z amount of quests or kill 1000000000 pigs.
PS: @Moreplex, with every post you made in this thread you made it pretty clear that you don't know what you're talking about, and simply disagreing for the sake of trying to make MO look bad. You're clearly VERY emphatic about your hate; to the point of absolutely absurd.
A game will present itself as either good or bad. It doesn't need, most definately not after almost a year and a half, halfassed arguements with zero logic either for or against it for people to know the state of the game. Everyone knows that MO isn't finished, everyone knows it needs a lot of work, everyone knows SV is a young inexperienced studio making a very ambitious game. Seriously, it doesn't need a borderline troll to make it look bad.
I have not been here a year and a half. But thanx for the personal attack.
......so now you picked some MO-specific properties and put them in yes/no questions, but you haven't explained why those features/properties turn a game into a sandbox.
Does being able to learn any skill that exists in the game turn a game into a sandbox? Does being able to use any weapon in the game turn the game into a sandbox? And armor? WoW could have all 3 of those features and it wouldn't turn the game into a sandbox.
Should I care if I can choose my ingredients for my weapon? WoW could have that, it wouldn't turn the game into a sandbox.
Does owning a house turn a game into a sandbox? WoW could have that, it wouldn't turn the game into a sandbox.
You simply don't seem to know how to define a sandbox. So why tell us all that there's no better sandbox choice than MO? Why can't you find an arguement that you can explain? Ask yourself those question in honesty and you will reach a real conclusion.
MO'S gameplay doesn't rotate around player-created content. That's why it isn't a sandbox.
Disclaimer: I don't play MO, don't care about MO, I just saw the thread on the activity list.
Fist: A placeholder is a system that is put IN PLACE of a system that HASN'T BEEN PUT IN at all. An NPC dropping raw materials that make up the items that the NPC carries becuase the skill and systems to reprocess haven't been put in, is a placeholder. An NPC merchant who sells a material that is supposed to be got by picking a plant, but can't be obtained because the plant hasn't been put in the game, is a placeholder. Representing mulliple NPC merchants with the same NPC model because the other models haven't been made and implimented, is a placeholder.
Fishing isn't a placeholder, it's just impcomlete, and then only imcomplete because the devs have said there is more to add to it. Cooking is the same. It's a system that isn't finished because they said so. By all accounts, according the playerbase, the cooking system itself is done. It's just not balanced, as the guy in the OP copy/ pasted is clearly complaining about. Which is kind of funny in itself that the OP quoted a guy who's complaining about raw materials being ALMOST as good as cooked ones, and clearly asking the devs to BALANCE this, but somehow manages to turn it into a slant on SV that they implimented a placeholder system.
Blizzard has been balancing WoW since day one, does that mean the games has been a placeholder for the game itself all these years? Blizzard has altered every class, to the point that playing anyone class in WoW today is NOTHING like it was on day one, does that mean that every class in the game is just a placeholder because they keep tweaking and balancing them? No.
Secondly: UO isn't, nor was it ever, a sandbox because it revolved around playergenerated content. Elderscrolls isn't a sandbox becuase of player generated content, infact you can't generate any of your own content playing elderscrolls. Baldurs gate had no player generated content, and it was a sandbox. Grand theft auto is a sandbox, and I can't make my own content. Neverwinter nights isn't a sandbox, yet anyone can make their own content for that game. UO never even gave you the tools to generate player made content. You couldn't make a dungeon for other people to explore in UO. SWG had tools for player generated content, it was also class based, and as far as I could tell it's also a themepark. SWG had sandbox features, but wasn't a full-fledged sandbox. Darkfall has some tools to allow for player generated content, but it was a sandbox before those tools were implimented, even if it is a poorly contrived sandbox. Ryzom was a sandbox long before the Ryzom ring was implimented.
Player created content has NOTHING to do with a game being a sandbox. A skill system has NOTHING to do with a sandbox. Housing has NOTHING to do with a sandbox. Territory has NOTHING to do with a sandbox. These are all things that add to a sandbox.
A sandbox can have classes, typically they're governed by the player and not hardcoded, but they're classes non-the-less. Everyone of my characters in Oblivion has a "class", I can either choose a premade template, or make one up on my own; regardless it's a class. EQ2 has classes, but I can still do "effectively" whatever I want. I can be a crafter, a merchant, an adventurer, an explorer, a harvester. I can go were I want in EQ2 without restrictions, and I even have my own home. EQ2 isn't a true sandbox, but it invests heavily on providing a feeling of freedom by using sandboxy features. WoW is as far from a sandbox as you can get, and for only one reason, everything is governed by your characters class level and that is governed solely by gaining XP through killing stuff.
A sandbox ONLY MEANS that I'm NOT REQUIRED to follow a set progression path. Whether that be through story, proffesion, class, or level. I'm free to take whatever path I wish without being restrained by mechanics that require me to follow a lineare path THAT DICTATES THE ENTIRETY OF MY GAMEPLAY EXPERIENCE. IE: in order to craft an item I have to be level X in whatever my character class is, and in order to get to level X I have to go to Y zone and do Z amount of quests or kill 1000000000 pigs.
PS: @Moreplex, with every post you made in this thread you made it pretty clear that you don't know what you're talking about, and simply disagreing for the sake of trying to make MO look bad. You're clearly VERY emphatic about your hate; to the point of absolutely absurd.
A game will present itself as either good or bad. It doesn't need, most definately not after almost a year and a half, halfassed arguements with zero logic either for or against it for people to know the state of the game. Everyone knows that MO isn't finished, everyone knows it needs a lot of work, everyone knows SV is a young inexperienced studio making a very ambitious game. Seriously, it doesn't need a borderline troll to make it look bad.
I have not been here a year and a half. But thanx for the personal attack.
I aplogies, but I"m not attacking. I was just making an observation about what I read in this thread. Nor did I say anything about you being anywhere for a year in a half, I was refering to the game. Are you actually reading what you quote?
Every post seems to be nothing but a chance to make a negative comment in regard to the game, and not even pertaining to the original topic; I just don't get it.
......so now you picked some MO-specific properties and put them in yes/no questions, but you haven't explained why those features/properties turn a game into a sandbox.
Does being able to learn any skill that exists in the game turn a game into a sandbox? Does being able to use any weapon in the game turn the game into a sandbox? And armor? WoW could have all 3 of those features and it wouldn't turn the game into a sandbox.
Should I care if I can choose my ingredients for my weapon? WoW could have that, it wouldn't turn the game into a sandbox.
Does owning a house turn a game into a sandbox? WoW could have that, it wouldn't turn the game into a sandbox.
You simply don't seem to know how to define a sandbox. So why tell us all that there's no better sandbox choice than MO? Why can't you find an arguement that you can explain? Ask yourself those question in honesty and you will reach a real conclusion.
MO'S gameplay doesn't rotate around player-created content. That's why it isn't a sandbox.
Disclaimer: I don't play MO, don't care about MO, I just saw the thread on the activity list.
Fist: A placeholder is a system that is put IN PLACE of a system that HASN'T BEEN PUT IN at all. An NPC dropping raw materials that make up the items that the NPC carries becuase the skill and systems to reprocess haven't been put in, is a placeholder. An NPC merchant who sells a material that is supposed to be got by picking a plant, but can't be obtained because the plant hasn't been put in the game, is a placeholder. Representing mulliple NPC merchants with the same NPC model because the other models haven't been made and implimented, is a placeholder.
Fishing isn't a placeholder, it's just impcomlete, and then only imcomplete because the devs have said there is more to add to it. Cooking is the same. It's a system that isn't finished because they said so. By all accounts, according the playerbase, the cooking system itself is done. It's just not balanced, as the guy in the OP copy/ pasted is clearly complaining about. Which is kind of funny in itself that the OP quoted a guy who's complaining about raw materials being ALMOST as good as cooked ones, and clearly asking the devs to BALANCE this, but somehow manages to turn it into a slant on SV that they implimented a placeholder system.
Blizzard has been balancing WoW since day one, does that mean the games has been a placeholder for the game itself all these years? Blizzard has altered every class, to the point that playing anyone class in WoW today is NOTHING like it was on day one, does that mean that every class in the game is just a placeholder because they keep tweaking and balancing them? No.
Secondly: UO isn't, nor was it ever, a sandbox because it revolved around playergenerated content. Elderscrolls isn't a sandbox becuase of player generated content, infact you can't generate any of your own content playing elderscrolls. Baldurs gate had no player generated content, and it was a sandbox. Grand theft auto is a sandbox, and I can't make my own content. Neverwinter nights isn't a sandbox, yet anyone can make their own content for that game. UO never even gave you the tools to generate player made content. You couldn't make a dungeon for other people to explore in UO. SWG had tools for player generated content, it was also class based, and as far as I could tell it's also a themepark. SWG had sandbox features, but wasn't a full-fledged sandbox. Darkfall has some tools to allow for player generated content, but it was a sandbox before those tools were implimented, even if it is a poorly contrived sandbox. Ryzom was a sandbox long before the Ryzom ring was implimented.
Player created content has NOTHING to do with a game being a sandbox. A skill system has NOTHING to do with a sandbox. Housing has NOTHING to do with a sandbox. Territory has NOTHING to do with a sandbox. These are all things that add to a sandbox.
A sandbox can have classes, typically they're governed by the player and not hardcoded, but they're classes non-the-less. Everyone of my characters in Oblivion has a "class", I can either choose a premade template, or make one up on my own; regardless it's a class. EQ2 has classes, but I can still do "effectively" whatever I want. I can be a crafter, a merchant, an adventurer, an explorer, a harvester. I can go were I want in EQ2 without restrictions, and I even have my own home. EQ2 isn't a true sandbox, but it invests heavily on providing a feeling of freedom by using sandboxy features. WoW is as far from a sandbox as you can get, and for only one reason, everything is governed by your characters class level and that is governed solely by gaining XP through killing stuff.
A sandbox ONLY MEANS that I'm NOT REQUIRED to follow a set progression path. Whether that be through story, proffesion, class, or level. I'm free to take whatever path I wish without being restrained by mechanics that require me to follow a lineare path THAT DICTATES THE ENTIRETY OF MY GAMEPLAY EXPERIENCE. IE: in order to craft an item I have to be level X in whatever my character class is, and in order to get to level X I have to go to Y zone and do Z amount of quests or kill 1000000000 pigs.
PS: @Moreplex, with every post you made in this thread you made it pretty clear that you don't know what you're talking about, and simply disagreing for the sake of trying to make MO look bad. You're clearly VERY emphatic about your hate; to the point of absolutely absurd.
A game will present itself as either good or bad. It doesn't need, most definately not after almost a year and a half, halfassed arguements with zero logic either for or against it for people to know the state of the game. Everyone knows that MO isn't finished, everyone knows it needs a lot of work, everyone knows SV is a young inexperienced studio making a very ambitious game. Seriously, it doesn't need a borderline troll to make it look bad.
I have not been here a year and a half. But thanx for the personal attack.
I aplogies, but I"m not attacking. I was just making an observation about what I read in this thread. Nor did I say anything about you being anywhere for a year in a half, I was refering to the game. Are you actually reading what you quote?
Every post seems to be nothing but a chance to make a negative comment in regard to the game, and not even pertaining to the original topic; I just don't get it.
Out of curiousity, how long did you play MO for?
I only have negative things to say because the game is bad. I had a negative experience. Sounds like an attack to me maybe you should read what you type before you push enter.
I only have negative things to say because the game is bad. I had a negative experience. Sounds like an attack to me maybe you should read what you type before you push enter.
I'm not argueing over the quality of the game, I'm just trying to understand how 1) a mechanic that is only known to be incomplete because the devs said that they intend to add more to it, is a placeholder, and 2) how you rationalize the statement that MO isn't a sandbox,or what that even has to do with the OP.
I simply noticed a trend in your posts as they pertain to this single thread.
Another trend I noticed is that every time you've been asked a direct question you ignored it.
I'll ask again, how long did you play MO? Did you try cooking? How, aside from some added depth the devs have already stated will come later, is it not in place to such an extent that it's simply a placeholder?
I'm assuming that you did more then tried the trial for a couple of hours, got frustrated, and then came here to post negativety in every thread, or am I wrong?
I only have negative things to say because the game is bad. I had a negative experience. Sounds like an attack to me maybe you should read what you type before you push enter.
I'm not argueing over the quality of the game, I'm just trying to understand how 1) a mechanic that is only known to be incomplete because the devs said that they intend to add more to it, is a placeholder, and 2) how you rationalize the statement that MO isn't a sandbox,or what that even has to do with the OP.
I simply noticed a trend in your posts as they pertain to this single thread.
Another trend I noticed is that every time you've been asked a direct question you ignored it.
I'll ask again, how long did you play MO? Did you try cooking? How, aside from some added depth the devs have already stated will come later, is it not in place to such an extent that it's simply a placeholder?
I'm assuming that you did more then tried the trial for a couple of hours, got frustrated, and then came here to post negativety in every thread, or am I wrong?
For someone who has never played MO you know an awful lot about it. And you are wrong. How about you stop harrasing me about playtime and get on subject.
I only have negative things to say because the game is bad. I had a negative experience. Sounds like an attack to me maybe you should read what you type before you push enter.
I'm not argueing over the quality of the game, I'm just trying to understand how 1) a mechanic that is only known to be incomplete because the devs said that they intend to add more to it, is a placeholder, and 2) how you rationalize the statement that MO isn't a sandbox,or what that even has to do with the OP.
I simply noticed a trend in your posts as they pertain to this single thread.
Another trend I noticed is that every time you've been asked a direct question you ignored it.
I'll ask again, how long did you play MO? Did you try cooking? How, aside from some added depth the devs have already stated will come later, is it not in place to such an extent that it's simply a placeholder?
I'm assuming that you did more then tried the trial for a couple of hours, got frustrated, and then came here to post negativety in every thread, or am I wrong?
For someone who has never played MO you know an awful lot about it. And you are wrong. How about you stop harrasing me about playtime and get on subject.
When did I say I never played?
I was a block A beta tester, and played for 6 months after it released. I never said I didn't play, only that I don't play, nor do I really care about the game. Not playing isn't the same as didn't play.
And I'm sorry, didn't realize that asking you a simple question, that you're unable to answer, was "harrasing". I'm just curious how long you played to determine that cooking is a placeholder and the game isn't a sandbox.
PS: If you make a statement, and can't even back it up, then you're just posting negativety for the sake of posting negativety to make the game look bad, and that's trolling.
PPS: I think it's funny that the guy who tried to derail the thread by claiming the game isn't a sandbox, who is then asked a question in direct relation to the OP is telling anyone to get on topic.
I only have negative things to say because the game is bad. I had a negative experience. Sounds like an attack to me maybe you should read what you type before you push enter.
I'm not argueing over the quality of the game, I'm just trying to understand how 1) a mechanic that is only known to be incomplete because the devs said that they intend to add more to it, is a placeholder, and 2) how you rationalize the statement that MO isn't a sandbox,or what that even has to do with the OP.
I simply noticed a trend in your posts as they pertain to this single thread.
Another trend I noticed is that every time you've been asked a direct question you ignored it.
I'll ask again, how long did you play MO? Did you try cooking? How, aside from some added depth the devs have already stated will come later, is it not in place to such an extent that it's simply a placeholder?
I'm assuming that you did more then tried the trial for a couple of hours, got frustrated, and then came here to post negativety in every thread, or am I wrong?
For someone who has never played MO you know an awful lot about it. And you are wrong. How about you stop harrasing me about playtime and get on subject.
When did I say I never played?
I was a block A beta tester, and played for 6 months after it released. I never said I didn't play, only that I don't play, nor do I really care about the game. Not playing isn't the same as didn't play.
And I'm sorry, didn't realize that asking you a simple question, that you're unable to answer, was "harrasing". I'm just curious how long you played to determine that cooking is a placeholder and the game isn't a sandbox.
PS: If you make a statement, and can't even back it up, then you're just posting negativety for the sake of posting negativety to make the game look bad, and that's trolling.
Why did you quit?? I will revise what I said. For not playing MO for a long time you sure know alot. I have played more recently than you. And rthere are many people in this thread with better arguments as to why MO is not a sandbox or why it is a placeholder but you are singiling me out. Why is that?
Comments
Ofcourse I do. A sandbox has tools MO has very limited tools and the ones they have need tweaking or are broken. You said MO is a sandbox because of stuff on the way. MO is a deathmatch with crafting.
No I didn't say it was sandbox because of stuff on the way, but nice reading comprehension. Try reading in context next time. It's not even worth arguing with you because it's obvious that your hatred is blinding. But this game is a sandbox, and i implore you to try to prove otherwise. The fact that most of the players left predominatly enjoy pvping doens't mean there isn't tools or sand to do anyhting else.
You are free to do whatever you want in this game, and if you wanted, you could have your main be a bowcrater who sets up a vendor on his house that you built yourself with wood you chopped and metal you mined while fishing in the lake next to your house on the weekends, thats not sandbox? And there is most definitely a portion of the population that does only non-pvp activites. The game is obviously missing sand and tools (mainly ai and trading tools), but to say its not a sandbox is ridiculous.
I can read just find. It is obvious your fanboism blinds you. I am basing MO's sanbox on other sanboxes I have played and it falls very short. It is pretty bad a game in the 90s has more tools than MO does now.
It was not just pvp players that left it was pvp, pve, traders, explorers. Why did all these different playstyles leave the game? Because the game lacks in all departments. I will make you happy and call it sandbox light.
Fishing? Is the other half of that in btw??
72 fishes!!!!
Nice job avoiding all my arguments. But how does a lack of trade and social tools make it not a sandbox? Please do tell, im still waiting. Do you or do you not have freedom to do basically anything you want? Ya it is ridiculous that sandboxes in the 90's had more tools then mo has now. It's equally ridiculous that mmos in the 90's had more tools than basically any mmo of the modern time. By your logic, does that mean none of the recent mmo's are mmo's?
If a cup is only half filled with water, does it cease being a cup of water? Your making no coherent argument, please do tell why this isn't a sandbox? like i said, if this game isn't a sandbox, then what is?
Sandbox light? No, it's just a sandbox. Gw2 isn't a themepark light just because it doesn't have hamsterwheel raiding, its a themepark.
I understand that you commit a lot of time to hate this game, but trying to argue that this isn't a sandbox is silly. If you wanted to argue that this game was crap, then yes, but thats a completely different discussion.
I do not know how me saying an MO in the 90s has more tools than MO has now translate into what you are saying about MMOs. It is not my fault MO has a small percentage of tools any other sandbox I have played.
It is ok some people have higher standards than others that is why there are $20 hookers and $1000 hookers.
Have fun in your sandbox with little sand and keep talking about features that are coming nest week or soon(tm).
Well because you don't want to have an actual conversation as to why the game isn't a sandbox (according to you, most likely because you have no argument besides disapointment), I'll say this: I've played mmos for a long time, and it seems to me that the cheap hookers are working much harder.
And indeed, I intend to have fun lol...
You think it is a sandbox I don't based on other sandboxes I have played. Due to those sandboxes having more tools. I am much harder to please than you. Obviously there are a lot of people like me or MO would have a much higher retention rate.
Which brings us back to the question, why is it not a sandbox? You think it's not a sandbox because the other sandboxes you played were more complete and you enjoyed them better. I understand this, what I don't understand is how your linking the quality of the game to the genre of the game. Like I said, if you want to argue that its a crappy sandbox, thats a different argument. This isn't a discussion of the game, its a discussion of logic, and in this game, you have freedom to do whatever you want, which is what makes a sandbox, a sandbox.
Saying MO is not a sandbox because it has "too few tools" or "too little sand" is obviously wrong. The game design is closer to "sandbox" than any other model I can think of:
Both character development and gameplay are entirely open, the game does not force you to choose a pre-defined template.
There is no "storyline" to follow.
There are no quests to lead you from one area to another in a linear progression.
There is no rigid level-based system to determine what skills you can train at certain points of your character development.
There are no "zones" that restrict entry based on your level.
Saying it is a "bad" or "limited" sandbox (your subjective judgment) is acceptable, but that doesn't mean it's not a sandbox. The amount of options in the game are still limited, and often buggy or broken, but it is actually slowly improving.
The pace of improvement is just much too slow for most people, BUT nobody can honestly say that MO has not improved since launch
Would one of you stating that MO is a sandbox please define the term for me, or this discussion has zero context.
Most of the things listed I can do in WoW or EQ, both of which are derided as the least "sandbox" games around. The term has become so devalued by developers and gamers desperate for a new UO that it no longer has any meaning.
Let's just take the above post -
1) I do not have to choose a pre-defined template in WoW either, I have talents, augments etc to vary my character. If you actually mean "no classes", then SWG was not a sandbox as it had character classes.
2) There is a story in MO (mostly in Swedish apparently but nm) and things like the Risar invasion were meant to be part of that. I don't have to follow that story in MO, but I also don't have to follow the story in WoW.
3) Lots of games don't have a linear progression via quests model, EQ for eg. Was EQ a sandbox?
4) MO has a rigid skill system. I can't learn advanced smithing skills without learning the earlier skills first. I have no option to skip them. In WoW I can get to max crafting on character that hasn't left their starting area.
5) EQ had easily accessible zones (in fact there were very few item/lvl locked zones) that you could go in at any level. You'd die horribly but their was no restriction on entry.
Saying "sandbox" doesn't mean it's a sandbox if the term no longer has any meaning. Can you provide a definition?
Enough of that. So what is there? By your definition any "Hello World" application is a sandbox too.
Pace? Many would question if MO is even out of "Beta" status 16 months after release.
Performance "improved" due to attrition alone, no help needed from SV. Not much load on the servers these days
But going from a 1 out of 10, to a 2 out of 10 is hardly a mile stone.
I win!!! LOL@U
In arguing the validity of the list, you are taking one feature from one game and comparing it to another game, and drawing the conclusion that the two games are therefore identical in all aspects.
You cannot take a list of features from ONE game and counter them individually with a comparison to a different game each time. It's the combination of features in one game that make the whole.
Compare this list of features to one specific other game, and see how it scores:
Can your character learn any skill that exists in the game ?
Can your character learn to use any weapon that exists in the game, including magic ?
Can your character wear every single piece of armour in the game ?
Can you build your own house in the game ?
Can your guild build a keep or castle and claim territory ?
Can you decide which ingredients to use when you craft an item, or vary the amount of ingredients used in crafting a certain recipe ?
Does your character have control of his own development choices, or does the game dictate when you are allowed to access certain things ?
If your game of choice can answer "yes" to all the above, then it is most likely a sandbox. There may well be some "themepark" games that have one or two of these features, but not ALL of them together in one game.
There is no definitive list of sandbox features. The deciding factor really is how much freedom the player is given in the game, and how many alternative playstyles are accomodated (other than "get to max level and raid for purples").
......so now you picked some MO-specific properties and put them in yes/no questions, but you haven't explained why those features/properties turn a game into a sandbox.
Does being able to learn any skill that exists in the game turn a game into a sandbox? Does being able to use any weapon in the game turn the game into a sandbox? And armor? WoW could have all 3 of those features and it wouldn't turn the game into a sandbox.
Should I care if I can choose my ingredients for my weapon? WoW could have that, it wouldn't turn the game into a sandbox.
Does owning a house turn a game into a sandbox? WoW could have that, it wouldn't turn the game into a sandbox.
You simply don't seem to know how to define a sandbox. So why tell us all that there's no better sandbox choice than MO? Why can't you find an arguement that you can explain? Ask yourself those question in honesty and you will reach a real conclusion.
MO'S gameplay doesn't rotate around player-created content. That's why it isn't a sandbox.
The reality of this is that "sandbox" means different things to different people. MO has sandbox character progression, and that's about it. It is because the game is skill based and not class based.
It actually has almost nothing else, and much less that works properly. I mean, if your goal is to love MO because it's "Sandbox" as determined by the features you guys have listed above, then you may as well swap over to Darkfall which does all of these things better than MO will ever do them. The reality of MO is that it was entirely based on the concept of stealing ideas from UO, from statloss, to "red" status, to housing, to spells, to Henrik admitting as much. And they have done such a piss poor job, the only thing that I see in this "sandbox" is the turd that the developers left behind and called it a game.
Disclaimer: I don't play MO, don't care about MO, I just saw the thread on the activity list.
Fist: A placeholder is a system that is put IN PLACE of a system that HASN'T BEEN PUT IN at all. An NPC dropping raw materials that make up the items that the NPC carries becuase the skill and systems to reprocess haven't been put in, is a placeholder. An NPC merchant who sells a material that is supposed to be got by picking a plant, but can't be obtained because the plant hasn't been put in the game, is a placeholder. Representing mulliple NPC merchants with the same NPC model because the other models haven't been made and implimented, is a placeholder.
Fishing isn't a placeholder, it's just impcomlete, and then only imcomplete because the devs have said there is more to add to it. Cooking is the same. It's a system that isn't finished because they said so. By all accounts, according the playerbase, the cooking system itself is done. It's just not balanced, as the guy in the OP copy/ pasted is clearly complaining about. Which is kind of funny in itself that the OP quoted a guy who's complaining about raw materials being ALMOST as good as cooked ones, and clearly asking the devs to BALANCE this, but somehow manages to turn it into a slant on SV that they implimented a placeholder system.
Blizzard has been balancing WoW since day one, does that mean the games has been a placeholder for the game itself all these years? Blizzard has altered every class, to the point that playing anyone class in WoW today is NOTHING like it was on day one, does that mean that every class in the game is just a placeholder because they keep tweaking and balancing them? No.
Secondly: UO isn't, nor was it ever, a sandbox because it revolved around playergenerated content. Elderscrolls isn't a sandbox becuase of player generated content, infact you can't generate any of your own content playing elderscrolls. Baldurs gate had no player generated content, and it was a sandbox. Grand theft auto is a sandbox, and I can't make my own content. Neverwinter nights isn't a sandbox, yet anyone can make their own content for that game. UO never even gave you the tools to generate player made content. You couldn't make a dungeon for other people to explore in UO. SWG had tools for player generated content, it was also class based, and as far as I could tell it's also a themepark. SWG had sandbox features, but wasn't a full-fledged sandbox. Darkfall has some tools to allow for player generated content, but it was a sandbox before those tools were implimented, even if it is a poorly contrived sandbox. Ryzom was a sandbox long before the Ryzom ring was implimented.
Player created content has NOTHING to do with a game being a sandbox. A skill system has NOTHING to do with a sandbox. Housing has NOTHING to do with a sandbox. Territory has NOTHING to do with a sandbox. These are all things that add to a sandbox.
A sandbox can have classes, typically they're governed by the player and not hardcoded, but they're classes non-the-less. Everyone of my characters in Oblivion has a "class", I can either choose a premade template, or make one up on my own; regardless it's a class. EQ2 has classes, but I can still do "effectively" whatever I want. I can be a crafter, a merchant, an adventurer, an explorer, a harvester. I can go were I want in EQ2 without restrictions, and I even have my own home. EQ2 isn't a true sandbox, but it invests heavily on providing a feeling of freedom by using sandboxy features. WoW is as far from a sandbox as you can get, and for only one reason, everything is governed by your characters class level and that is governed solely by gaining XP through killing stuff.
A sandbox ONLY MEANS that I'm NOT REQUIRED to follow a set progression path. Whether that be through story, proffesion, class, or level. I'm free to take whatever path I wish without being restrained by mechanics that require me to follow a lineare path THAT DICTATES THE ENTIRETY OF MY GAMEPLAY EXPERIENCE. IE: in order to craft an item I have to be level X in whatever my character class is, and in order to get to level X I have to go to Y zone and do Z amount of quests or kill 1000000000 pigs.
PS: @Moreplex, with every post you made in this thread you made it pretty clear that you don't know what you're talking about, and simply disagreing for the sake of trying to make MO look bad. You're clearly VERY emphatic about your hate; to the point of absolutely absurd.
A game will present itself as either good or bad. It doesn't need, most definately not after almost a year and a half, halfassed arguements with zero logic either for or against it for people to know the state of the game. Everyone knows that MO isn't finished, everyone knows it needs a lot of work, everyone knows SV is a young inexperienced studio making a very ambitious game. Seriously, it doesn't need a borderline troll to make it look bad.
I have not been here a year and a half. But thanx for the personal attack.
I aplogies, but I"m not attacking. I was just making an observation about what I read in this thread. Nor did I say anything about you being anywhere for a year in a half, I was refering to the game. Are you actually reading what you quote?
Every post seems to be nothing but a chance to make a negative comment in regard to the game, and not even pertaining to the original topic; I just don't get it.
Out of curiousity, how long did you play MO for?
I only have negative things to say because the game is bad. I had a negative experience. Sounds like an attack to me maybe you should read what you type before you push enter.
I'm not argueing over the quality of the game, I'm just trying to understand how 1) a mechanic that is only known to be incomplete because the devs said that they intend to add more to it, is a placeholder, and 2) how you rationalize the statement that MO isn't a sandbox,or what that even has to do with the OP.
I simply noticed a trend in your posts as they pertain to this single thread.
Another trend I noticed is that every time you've been asked a direct question you ignored it.
I'll ask again, how long did you play MO? Did you try cooking? How, aside from some added depth the devs have already stated will come later, is it not in place to such an extent that it's simply a placeholder?
I'm assuming that you did more then tried the trial for a couple of hours, got frustrated, and then came here to post negativety in every thread, or am I wrong?
For someone who has never played MO you know an awful lot about it. And you are wrong. How about you stop harrasing me about playtime and get on subject.
When did I say I never played?
I was a block A beta tester, and played for 6 months after it released. I never said I didn't play, only that I don't play, nor do I really care about the game. Not playing isn't the same as didn't play.
And I'm sorry, didn't realize that asking you a simple question, that you're unable to answer, was "harrasing". I'm just curious how long you played to determine that cooking is a placeholder and the game isn't a sandbox.
PS: If you make a statement, and can't even back it up, then you're just posting negativety for the sake of posting negativety to make the game look bad, and that's trolling.
PPS: I think it's funny that the guy who tried to derail the thread by claiming the game isn't a sandbox, who is then asked a question in direct relation to the OP is telling anyone to get on topic.
Why did you quit?? I will revise what I said. For not playing MO for a long time you sure know alot. I have played more recently than you. And rthere are many people in this thread with better arguments as to why MO is not a sandbox or why it is a placeholder but you are singiling me out. Why is that?