archeage does look promising except for its combat system of course which is oldschool with little invoation. But i feel the game is more of a hybrid a mix of themepark and sandbox which will atempt to bridge the gap. Im certainly gonig to try it but im not all that excited and i dont have as high hopes or expectations which in turn might make me enjoy the game more than those who have been raving about it only to be disapointed.
currently im playing mortal online, its buggy and still needs work but its inovating the genre with its mechanics and pretty much adding the sort of content sandbox fans want from an mmo. Got a lnog way to go but its gonig in the right direction at least.
there are 2 types of mmo, imitators and innovaters.
The complaint from me isn't that "there are no sandbox games on the market", it's more that "we've had these amazing innovations from games like SWG, EVE and Ryzom and yet the industry seems to have learned absolutely nothing and is not building on these amazing concepts".
EQ2 & WoW came out years ago and then after them LoTRO, Vanguard, AoC, WAR, TR, AoC, RIFT and now SWTOR have all been created with the general concept of "being a better WoW/EQ2". So for people that really enjoyed WoW/EQ2, lots has been built on concepts from those games. Well, where the f**k is my "better SWG"? where is my "better EVE"? where is my "better Ryzom"? That's what i'm NOT seeing on the market.
I actually rather that complaint to theres no sandboxes begin made i can answer that question
Where is better your "SWG".SWG was a freak of nature was a sandbox with strong IP,You can make argument that game would not have sold as much without best IP outthere
Where is your better "EVE"? Eve has 300k AoC which was failure had 700k,AoC which was failure and players swore it and funcom off,Still manage to get 300k again with a move to free to play
Where is your better Ryzom?Ryzom died and was barely brought back to life while Allods a 12 million dollar to make WoW clone still kicking and breathing and Runes of Magic a WoW clone is still kicking and breathing.
If you where given 100 million dollars to make a video game and you get keep profits would you make sandbox game? I will bet you money that you probably won't make back your money with sandbox.Ask yourself why does not EA make another Ultima,Why doesn't Turbine make another AC,Why wasn't Shadowbane 2 made,Then ask yourself why is there a Cabal 2 being made,Archlord 2 being made.The market isn't there for type game that right now and the funny thing is when just one game has success you will these companies rushing to put Ultima online 2 or AC3.
PS if i was given 100 million dollars i am pocketing all but 12 million and i am making WoW clone like Allods but this time no crappy Cash shop.
You seem to judge everything by how much it sells, so on a fundamental level, we're not going to agree on things. I judge games based on whether they are good or not, I don't much care how much they sell. Vanguard, Warhammer and AION sold about 100 times the number of copies that Fallen Earth did, yet FE is still a much better game.
If i was given 100 million and told that I could keep the profits, I would make what I thought was the best possible game. I would make what is my idea of an amazing MMO experience. How much profit it made would be secondary. I would not go into the business of creating art or entertainment for money. I would only get into it for the sake of creating something amazing. There are enough people out there making generic crap, i don't have any burning desire to add to it for the sake of making a few bucks, I ALREADY do that in my regular job. (Also, note the quote in my signature as it speaks to precisely this issue.)
Just like if i was given money to make a film, i would much rather make an amazing and unique flim that only costs 1m and makes 5m than to make the next transformers movie that would make 400 million but be known as the biggest piece of s**t ever made. But hey, there are people and companies that do that. That's their business. Doesn't mean everyone needs to emulate them.
If SWG had not had the IP, you're right, it would have sold less, but it also wouldn't have been destroyed by NGE and would likely have had organically grown into a much better game. So there are PROs and CONs. D&D Online had arguably the best IP out there for a Fantasy MMO and failed BOTH creatively and commercially. STO had the best sci-fi IP, was 100% themepark and it too failed miserably. So just because an IP is involved, doesn't mean anything.
I really don't get your arguments about the need to make WoW/EQ2 clones for commercial success either. For every WoW/EQ2 clone that's still around and commercially successful (Rift, RoM, LoTRO, Allods, w/e) there is another nearly identical game with just as much support that has either commercially failed outright or is on its last legs (WAR, TR, Vanguard, STO, etc.). So really "just make a WoW clone" is far from a foolproof model.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
What I find the most disheartening is why people such as yourself continue to try and bring us down. We like a certain playstyle and some things about it is what most would consider niche. This is true, though with your line of thinking...since the MMO market is big enough for all, then why can't we get a couple AAA sandboxes? I believe that most of the sandbox fans, myself included, are open to some compromise. Not all of us want Ultima Online at launch day. Why make posts trying to convince others that our opinions are old and outdated, or worthless? Why try to convince others that we shouldn't get a AAA representation in the sandbox community? How would this negatively affect your gaming experience in your preferred theme park if the sandbox community was happy?
It is this sort of greed and ignorance of todays gamer that really frustrates me. You have all you could ever want to choose from, yet you can't stand the fact that there actually is a large part of the community that wants something different. Just make a post with the word sandbox in it and see how the entire thread opens up in heated debate. The proof is there that it can be successful and that people do want it, why do people like you continue to try and discredit that when it in no way affects you?
How I am bringing you down? Did i stop mmo makers from games? I am the one who keeps supporting WoW clone after WoW clone.When did i ever say they should not be triple AAA sandboxes? Is the market biggest enough for multiple AAA sandbox? Yes.Will companies make them? No.Why won't companies make them?Market favor themeparks right now?Should you stop complaing about sandbox not being made? No.Should you stop caring if they are 100 mmo being made most of them are themeparks ?yes
You read these boards and tell people and what side of arguement is more close minded?Tell me what do you see more of on these boards mmo are dying,MMO are being ruin by themepark,No sandboxes are being made,MMO industry is dead,etc type of threads..The industry is not dying it is growing and that is good thing for you guys it means at some point you will get those game that you want.The point was to stop acting like games don't exsist because they do and they have not gone anywhere,They arejust made by indie companies instead the big guns.
Also you assume to know me just because of one post.I have played WoW,Rifts,War,AoC.I have played Darkfall,Mortal Online,Shadowbane.I have played Cabal,Shayia,Runes of Magic,Perfect World,I have played Guild War,Vindictus,Borderlands and Diablo.I play Oblivion,Final fantasy,Fable and Zelda.I don't go looking for sandboxes or themeparks i go looking for good games.Quite frankly i am tired of both sides but i am more tired of vocal minorty who can't understand they niche,More than majority who keep let companies put out crappy games.
I was not mad at Warhammer for not being a sandbox i was mad Warhammer for being a crappy game,I was not mad Mortal Online for not being a themepark i was mad mortal for being a crappy game.I am not mad Rifts for sub game i mad at Rifts for not sticking with design and not worth sub for me,I am not mad Allods for being free to play game,I mad at Allods for not trust it design and use bad cash shop concepts.I wan't good games i could care less what the label i just want good games
Mortal Online (FFA PVP),Fallen Earth (Sci-fi), Darkfall (FFA PVP), Earthrise (FFA PVP, Sci-fi), Vanguard (not a sandbox), Ryzom (has already been shot down once), EvE (FFA PVP & Sci-fi), Wurm (I've heard the game has performance issues), Perpetum (FFA PVP & Sci-fi), Maginobi (never heard of it will have to try it), Xyson (FFA PVP)
Sandbox gaming being made
Archage (FFA PVP), Dawntide (FFA PVP), The Repouplation (will have to research more), Origins (has a lot of promise but still early in development), Embers of Careus (never heard of this one will have to research it more)
Notice a common recuring theme? Our choices are FFA PVP, Sci-fi or questionable games/indie companies.
Arch Age could of been the game I think many of us are looking for but they went FFA PVP. Origins has a lot of potential but is still in the very early stages of development.
ArcheAge seems to be going more in the direction of Eve, with safe zones, PK penalties, etc. In theory, there should be a fairly vibrant, non-pvp economy and game to support and go with the FFA PvP side of the game. They seem to be trying to give players a lot of choices, which sounds good, no matter what kind of game you're making.
Last I saw of AA their PK penalties consist of blood marks for killing innocent people. Gather enough blood and a trial is held. There are two glaring issues with their trial system. One players are the judges so if you get bad judges guess what happens to a server? Two the offending player is not forced to attend the trial. If they do not attend their name will go up on a bounty board. Anyone who has played UO knows how well bounty boards work.
Simmer down, you do have a valid point, at least as far as I'm concerned. Either the demand is much greater for a traditional themepark than it is for a hybrid or a sandbox, or investors and some devs mistakenly believe the demand for a traditional themepark is much greater.
I'm thinking it was for awhile the former, and now it's the latter, and that some of these big investors and MMO development companies are going to have to get burned pretty badly before they finally grow enough sense to take their hand off the pretty Blizzard=WoW=billions burner and put their money and energy into something that we, the increasingly burned out MMO players, will spend sufficient money on for it to be profitable.
Or, on a pessimistic note, all of us older gamers will continue to drift away from MMOs while these companies will somehow draw in younger players for the forseeable future. Know why I don't see that happening? Because younger players now have even more forms of entertainment crying out for their attention than we did ten years ago. My son is almost entirely a console gamer, rarely bothers with any MMO except Runescape, and is only interested in Skyrim. So good luck with that crowd if you investors and devs out there finish the job of burning out and disgusting your older gamers.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
OP, people want a well made sandbox. They are not going to be happy with a pile of shite just because it is a sandbox. EVE is perhaps the only quality product there and given (up until recently and only in a limited form) you are restricted to a ship, that is not going to float typical "avatar centric" players now is it.
The rest are either highly pvp centric (i.e. a sandpit with pvp focus like Darkfall) or a bugged pile of crap (also to an extent like Darkfall)* or not even sandboxes.
To be honest I just want UO 2.0, with a classic rule option so yeah I'm not blind just deluded lol.
* I love the game, well it's potential, and hope 2.0 sorts it out, i'm not bashing it.
Best answer right here. We want good sandbox games not the steaming pile some devs like to serve with a fee on it.
I returned to UO 3 months ago, hence my sig, and despite it having changed drastically over the years (first played it in 1997), it's still the best sand box out there at the moment in my opinion. I'm loving it after 3 months back and will remain here for now.
Hopefully someday a worthy successor to UO shall grace us with it's presence.
I am a sandbox fan, we are a niche market, but not as niche as the amount spent putting out sandbox games versus themepark would appear.
I think WoW like success for a sandbox would be about 1 to 1.5m subs, at $15 a month that's $180m a year plus if you get it right. Yet all we get are half finished buggy efforts from Indy developers taking a punt.
I am not sure what the OP is trying to achieve other than a sly swipe trying to put sandbox fans in their place ie "be happy with your crumbs"
Archage,Dawntide,The Repouplation,Origins,Embers of Careus
I am a sandbox fan and like many I know about these and regularly talk about them on this forum positively, So the answer to your silly question is no. And because the answer is no, then I guess we are not pretending that we are not seeing archage etc either - awsomeness.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Newer gamers are simply fickle & want everything now. This has bred MMOs of today, and the future, into "Give me what i want NOW" easy-fests like World of Warcraft, SWTOR, etc, etc.
However, due to an upturn in PC sales we'll see a revitilization of the PC MMO market in the next 5years. Planetside 2 is a step AWAY from easy-peasy "I win NOW!" games (similar to WoW).
I cannot wait !
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity: Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
I am a sandbox fan, we are a niche market, but not as niche as the amount spent putting out sandbox games versus themepark would appear. I think WoW like success for a sandbox would be about 1 to 1.5m subs, at $15 a month that's $180m a year plus if you get it right. Yet all we get are half finished buggy efforts from Indy developers taking a punt. I am not sure what the OP is trying to achieve other than a sly swipe trying to put sandbox fans in their place ie "be happy with your crumbs"
In the market right now there is room for what i like to call a elite niche game what Gear of Wars is to shooter market or LoL is RTS market(I know they have become their own genre now TPS and Moba the point stil the same).One big game which is totally different from the norm that has success but industry on whole still favors the one style.
Themepark appeals to large section of gamers casual,harcore,women,men,kids.You get a good deep mmorpg with good level of diffcult you cut out a large section.You add FFA you cut out another large section,You add mature content you cut out large section.That is choice facing companies make simpler game attract more players,The more players playing the more chance i have making back my money.I respect the makers of EvE and WoD becausse they don't care about trying to get the largest section and try to make a good or best gaming experiance for their game even if cause them palyers
I was not saying be happy with your crumbs,I was saying that industry shifted and you are minority.Expect your games from indie companies.For example watch Funcom they have progress into mid level company from indie company,White Wolf is turning into a mid level company.The quailty of these companies will go up eventually or a big company like 38 studios,Besthada,Bioware,Ncsoft or SoE will make sandbox as well.
I think they could be 3 or 4 big sandbox games but they will still be 150 other themeparks games on the market
I am a sandbox fan, we are a niche market, but not as niche as the amount spent putting out sandbox games versus themepark would appear. I think WoW like success for a sandbox would be about 1 to 1.5m subs, at $15 a month that's $180m a year plus if you get it right. Yet all we get are half finished buggy efforts from Indy developers taking a punt. I am not sure what the OP is trying to achieve other than a sly swipe trying to put sandbox fans in their place ie "be happy with your crumbs"
In the market right now there is room for what i like to call a elite niche game what Gear of Wars is to shooter market or LoL is RTS market(I know they have become their own genre now TPS and Moba the point stil the same).One big game which is totally different from the norm that has success but industry on whole still favors the one style.
Themepark appeals to large section of gamers casual,harcore,women,men,kids.You get a good deep mmorpg with good level of diffcult you cut out a large section.You add FFA you cut out another large section,You add mature content you cut out large section.That is choice facing companies make simpler game attract more players,The more players playing the more chance i have making back my money.I respect the makers of EvE and WoD becausse they don't care about trying to get the largest section and try to make a good or best gaming experiance for their game even if cause them palyers
I was not saying be happy with your crumbs,I was saying that industry shifted and you are minority.Expect your games from indie companies.For example watch Funcom they have progress into mid level company from indie company,White Wolf is turning into a mid level company.The quailty of these companies will go up eventually or a big company like 38 studios,Besthada,Bioware,Ncsoft or SoE will make sandbox as well.
I think they could be 3 or 4 big sandbox games but they will still be 150 other themeparks games on the market
Funcom is making The Secret World, and while I hope it's going to be fantastic, with a storyline behind the questing, fun three faction pvp, and a unique game world, it doesn't sound like it's shaping up to be a sandbox or even a hybrid. While I hope it does have elements not found in the average themepark, I don't know if I'd suggest that sandbox players pin their hopes on Funcom or any other well-funded developer out there right now. If I had to say to a sandbox player, this is the upcoming game to watch for this year, I'd point to Archeage first, TSW second, and GW2 third. Or maybe GW2 second, and TSW third. GW2 does have player housing.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
You forgot Prime Online. Three factions, open world PvP, crafting economy, etc. No telling how it will turn out, but it seems a lot like Earthrise, but without the horrible videos.
There is also 'The Repopulation' which was just announced and 'Salem'. There's an hour long video of 'Salem' on the massively.com website if you can get it to load. I couldn't get the video to load. The game play stuff starts at around the 14 minute mark.
These are upcoming games, so they're not going to be out terribly soon, but they are in development.
I don't think TSW or GW2 are going to satisfy sandbox fans...not really. They could be really good games in themselves, but they are by no means sandbox mmorpg.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Funcom is making The Secret World, and while I hope it's going to be fantastic, with a storyline behind the questing, fun three faction pvp, and a unique game world, it doesn't sound like it's shaping up to be a sandbox or even a hybrid. While I hope it does have elements not found in the average themepark, I don't know if I'd suggest that sandbox players pin their hopes on Funcom or any other well-funded developer out there right now. If I had to say to a sandbox player, this is the upcoming game to watch for this year, I'd point to Archeage first, TSW second, and GW2 third. Or maybe GW2 second, and TSW third. GW2 does have player housing.
Arch Age - FFA pvp
TSW - FailCom is showing their greed with their subscription fee and cash shop business model. Suck as much money out of your fans before they realize your game is a piese of shit, great plan.
GW2 - While looking like a great game not a sandbox.
Why is Entropia Universe never discussed in these conversations?
It has been around close to 10 years, has new graphics(cryengine 2 same as crysis) Sandbox with safe zones as well as pvp areas. It is a sandbox game but they are adding more themed elements to it and will cater to both sides of the fence I think.
Their recent addition of the Arctic on Rocktropia with the themed missions based on the upcomming prequil "The Thing" (in theaters oct14th) really shows some promise for their upcomming releases.
Next week is supposidly going to be one of their biggest updates of all time. (time will tell what it brings)
Why is Entropia Universe never discussed in these conversations?
It has been around close to 10 years, has new graphics(cryengine 2 same as crysis) Sandbox with safe zones as well as pvp areas. It is a sandbox game but they are adding more themed elements to it and will cater to both sides of the fence I think.
Their recent addition of the Arctic on Rocktropia with the themed missions based on the upcomming prequil "The Thing" (in theaters oct14th) really shows some promise for their upcomming releases.
Next week is supposidly going to be one of their biggest updates of all time. (time will tell what it brings)
narfi
Isn't Entropia Universe the ultimate expression of a cash shop? Sure in some ways it counts as a sandbox, but when something becomes a microcosm of a real world economy, complete with the have nots being walked all over by the haves, it ceases to be a game.
All I see are lists with sandboxy PVP games, sort of sandboxy themeparks, and a few retro-styled EQ clones.
Closest that I know of to a sandbox that's currently in release is Xsyon.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
Isn't Entropia Universe the ultimate expression of a cash shop? Sure in some ways it counts as a sandbox, but when something becomes a microcosm of a real world economy, complete with the have nots being walked all over by the haves, it ceases to be a game.
It can be that, if that is what you want it to be.
It is not what I want and therefor it is not what it is for me.
You can play this game wthout spending a dime and excell at it. Sure it takes alot of dedication and intelegence but it is possible. Or you can spend what you would on a normal subscription game and play fairly easily as long as you dont do stupid stuff all the time. Or you can waste as much money as you want being stupid all the time.
It is a game, it is chalanging, and because there is that 3rd catagory the rest of us can play much cheaper.
It is all about how you choose to play.
And because I have that choice, it is the ultimate sandbox game for me.
you forgot runescape. you can mine,farm,cook,build a house so on.
Oh RuneScape. The first game I ever played. Although the game is still java based and filled with 8-year olds, it will always have a place in my heart. But the poster is right. RuneScape gives you A LOT of choices. You can choose to simply skill, or just fight. There are NO classes and once you hit the level cap, you can always keep crafting to continue making money.
I may get ripped to shreds after saying this, but Runescape actually does have some pretty sandboxy elements, despite the "Cartoon-Network" style graphics..
Isn't Entropia Universe the ultimate expression of a cash shop? Sure in some ways it counts as a sandbox, but when something becomes a microcosm of a real world economy, complete with the have nots being walked all over by the haves, it ceases to be a game.
It can be that, if that is what you want it to be.
It is not what I want and therefor it is not what it is for me.
You can play this game wthout spending a dime and excell at it. Sure it takes alot of dedication and intelegence but it is possible. Or you can spend what you would on a normal subscription game and play fairly easily as long as you dont do stupid stuff all the time. Or you can waste as much money as you want being stupid all the time.
It is a game, it is chalanging, and because there is that 3rd catagory the rest of us can play much cheaper.
It is all about how you choose to play.
And because I have that choice, it is the ultimate sandbox game for me.
narfi
I've tried Entropia a number of times over the years and have refused to spend more than $15/mo on it. On that amount of money I found myself spending far too many hours sweating mobs for every hour I spent enjoying a view that didn't involve the arse end of an Ambulimax. That isn't freedom. But it definitely is a sandbox. It's just a sandbox for people that believe their MMO entertainment is worth far more than $15/mo.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
not sandbox, not sandbox, not sandbox, not sandbox, not sandbox, not sandbox, not sandbox, sandbox with ancient graphic/animation/audio, not sandbox, whut, whut, whut?
Newer gamers are simply fickle & want everything now. This has bred MMOs of today, and the future, into "Give me what i want NOW" easy-fests like World of Warcraft, SWTOR, etc, etc.
However, due to an upturn in PC sales we'll see a revitilization of the PC MMO market in the next 5years. Planetside 2 is a step AWAY from easy-peasy "I win NOW!" games (similar to WoW).
not sandbox, not sandbox, not sandbox, not sandbox, not sandbox, not sandbox, not sandbox, sandbox with ancient graphic/animation/audio, not sandbox, whut, whut, whut?
Then Ultima is not a sandbox either and no sandbox have ever been made.Theme park is a game that set you on a predetermine path or has predetermine paths.Sandbox has no predetermine paths.WoW or Rifts you are suppose to go recommend area to level.Sandbox lets you go everywhere and play how you want.Freedom vs Set choice.
Just because Mortal Online and Darkfall are not good sandboxes does not mean they are not sandboxes.Ulitma is a deeper sandbox better game than mortal but all games except Vanguard(and fallen earth) are sandboxes.Now you question level of complexity of each sandboxes and lack of features but they are still sandboxes.
Newer gamers are simply fickle & want everything now. This has bred MMOs of today, and the future, into "Give me what i want NOW" easy-fests like World of Warcraft, SWTOR, etc, etc.
However, due to an upturn in PC sales we'll see a revitilization of the PC MMO market in the next 5years. Planetside 2 is a step AWAY from easy-peasy "I win NOW!" games (similar to WoW).
Comments
archeage does look promising except for its combat system of course which is oldschool with little invoation. But i feel the game is more of a hybrid a mix of themepark and sandbox which will atempt to bridge the gap. Im certainly gonig to try it but im not all that excited and i dont have as high hopes or expectations which in turn might make me enjoy the game more than those who have been raving about it only to be disapointed.
currently im playing mortal online, its buggy and still needs work but its inovating the genre with its mechanics and pretty much adding the sort of content sandbox fans want from an mmo. Got a lnog way to go but its gonig in the right direction at least.
there are 2 types of mmo, imitators and innovaters.
You seem to judge everything by how much it sells, so on a fundamental level, we're not going to agree on things. I judge games based on whether they are good or not, I don't much care how much they sell. Vanguard, Warhammer and AION sold about 100 times the number of copies that Fallen Earth did, yet FE is still a much better game.
If i was given 100 million and told that I could keep the profits, I would make what I thought was the best possible game. I would make what is my idea of an amazing MMO experience. How much profit it made would be secondary. I would not go into the business of creating art or entertainment for money. I would only get into it for the sake of creating something amazing. There are enough people out there making generic crap, i don't have any burning desire to add to it for the sake of making a few bucks, I ALREADY do that in my regular job. (Also, note the quote in my signature as it speaks to precisely this issue.)
Just like if i was given money to make a film, i would much rather make an amazing and unique flim that only costs 1m and makes 5m than to make the next transformers movie that would make 400 million but be known as the biggest piece of s**t ever made. But hey, there are people and companies that do that. That's their business. Doesn't mean everyone needs to emulate them.
If SWG had not had the IP, you're right, it would have sold less, but it also wouldn't have been destroyed by NGE and would likely have had organically grown into a much better game. So there are PROs and CONs. D&D Online had arguably the best IP out there for a Fantasy MMO and failed BOTH creatively and commercially. STO had the best sci-fi IP, was 100% themepark and it too failed miserably. So just because an IP is involved, doesn't mean anything.
I really don't get your arguments about the need to make WoW/EQ2 clones for commercial success either. For every WoW/EQ2 clone that's still around and commercially successful (Rift, RoM, LoTRO, Allods, w/e) there is another nearly identical game with just as much support that has either commercially failed outright or is on its last legs (WAR, TR, Vanguard, STO, etc.). So really "just make a WoW clone" is far from a foolproof model.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
How I am bringing you down? Did i stop mmo makers from games? I am the one who keeps supporting WoW clone after WoW clone.When did i ever say they should not be triple AAA sandboxes? Is the market biggest enough for multiple AAA sandbox? Yes.Will companies make them? No.Why won't companies make them?Market favor themeparks right now?Should you stop complaing about sandbox not being made? No.Should you stop caring if they are 100 mmo being made most of them are themeparks ?yes
You read these boards and tell people and what side of arguement is more close minded?Tell me what do you see more of on these boards mmo are dying,MMO are being ruin by themepark,No sandboxes are being made,MMO industry is dead,etc type of threads..The industry is not dying it is growing and that is good thing for you guys it means at some point you will get those game that you want.The point was to stop acting like games don't exsist because they do and they have not gone anywhere,They arejust made by indie companies instead the big guns.
Also you assume to know me just because of one post.I have played WoW,Rifts,War,AoC.I have played Darkfall,Mortal Online,Shadowbane.I have played Cabal,Shayia,Runes of Magic,Perfect World,I have played Guild War,Vindictus,Borderlands and Diablo.I play Oblivion,Final fantasy,Fable and Zelda.I don't go looking for sandboxes or themeparks i go looking for good games.Quite frankly i am tired of both sides but i am more tired of vocal minorty who can't understand they niche,More than majority who keep let companies put out crappy games.
I was not mad at Warhammer for not being a sandbox i was mad Warhammer for being a crappy game,I was not mad Mortal Online for not being a themepark i was mad mortal for being a crappy game.I am not mad Rifts for sub game i mad at Rifts for not sticking with design and not worth sub for me,I am not mad Allods for being free to play game,I mad at Allods for not trust it design and use bad cash shop concepts.I wan't good games i could care less what the label i just want good games
Last I saw of AA their PK penalties consist of blood marks for killing innocent people. Gather enough blood and a trial is held. There are two glaring issues with their trial system. One players are the judges so if you get bad judges guess what happens to a server? Two the offending player is not forced to attend the trial. If they do not attend their name will go up on a bounty board. Anyone who has played UO knows how well bounty boards work.
Simmer down, you do have a valid point, at least as far as I'm concerned. Either the demand is much greater for a traditional themepark than it is for a hybrid or a sandbox, or investors and some devs mistakenly believe the demand for a traditional themepark is much greater.
I'm thinking it was for awhile the former, and now it's the latter, and that some of these big investors and MMO development companies are going to have to get burned pretty badly before they finally grow enough sense to take their hand off the pretty Blizzard=WoW=billions burner and put their money and energy into something that we, the increasingly burned out MMO players, will spend sufficient money on for it to be profitable.
Or, on a pessimistic note, all of us older gamers will continue to drift away from MMOs while these companies will somehow draw in younger players for the forseeable future. Know why I don't see that happening? Because younger players now have even more forms of entertainment crying out for their attention than we did ten years ago. My son is almost entirely a console gamer, rarely bothers with any MMO except Runescape, and is only interested in Skyrim. So good luck with that crowd if you investors and devs out there finish the job of burning out and disgusting your older gamers.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
Best answer right here. We want good sandbox games not the steaming pile some devs like to serve with a fee on it.
I returned to UO 3 months ago, hence my sig, and despite it having changed drastically over the years (first played it in 1997), it's still the best sand box out there at the moment in my opinion. I'm loving it after 3 months back and will remain here for now.
Hopefully someday a worthy successor to UO shall grace us with it's presence.
I think WoW like success for a sandbox would be about 1 to 1.5m subs, at $15 a month that's $180m a year plus if you get it right. Yet all we get are half finished buggy efforts from Indy developers taking a punt.
I am not sure what the OP is trying to achieve other than a sly swipe trying to put sandbox fans in their place ie "be happy with your crumbs"
I am a sandbox fan and like many I know about these and regularly talk about them on this forum positively, So the answer to your silly question is no. And because the answer is no, then I guess we are not pretending that we are not seeing archage etc either - awsomeness.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Newer gamers are simply fickle & want everything now. This has bred MMOs of today, and the future, into "Give me what i want NOW" easy-fests like World of Warcraft, SWTOR, etc, etc.
However, due to an upturn in PC sales we'll see a revitilization of the PC MMO market in the next 5years. Planetside 2 is a step AWAY from easy-peasy "I win NOW!" games (similar to WoW).
I cannot wait
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The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
you forgot runescape. you can mine,farm,cook,build a house so on.
In the market right now there is room for what i like to call a elite niche game what Gear of Wars is to shooter market or LoL is RTS market(I know they have become their own genre now TPS and Moba the point stil the same).One big game which is totally different from the norm that has success but industry on whole still favors the one style.
Themepark appeals to large section of gamers casual,harcore,women,men,kids.You get a good deep mmorpg with good level of diffcult you cut out a large section.You add FFA you cut out another large section,You add mature content you cut out large section.That is choice facing companies make simpler game attract more players,The more players playing the more chance i have making back my money.I respect the makers of EvE and WoD becausse they don't care about trying to get the largest section and try to make a good or best gaming experiance for their game even if cause them palyers
I was not saying be happy with your crumbs,I was saying that industry shifted and you are minority.Expect your games from indie companies.For example watch Funcom they have progress into mid level company from indie company,White Wolf is turning into a mid level company.The quailty of these companies will go up eventually or a big company like 38 studios,Besthada,Bioware,Ncsoft or SoE will make sandbox as well.
I think they could be 3 or 4 big sandbox games but they will still be 150 other themeparks games on the market
Funcom is making The Secret World, and while I hope it's going to be fantastic, with a storyline behind the questing, fun three faction pvp, and a unique game world, it doesn't sound like it's shaping up to be a sandbox or even a hybrid. While I hope it does have elements not found in the average themepark, I don't know if I'd suggest that sandbox players pin their hopes on Funcom or any other well-funded developer out there right now. If I had to say to a sandbox player, this is the upcoming game to watch for this year, I'd point to Archeage first, TSW second, and GW2 third. Or maybe GW2 second, and TSW third. GW2 does have player housing.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
You forgot Prime Online. Three factions, open world PvP, crafting economy, etc. No telling how it will turn out, but it seems a lot like Earthrise, but without the horrible videos.
There is also 'The Repopulation' which was just announced and 'Salem'. There's an hour long video of 'Salem' on the massively.com website if you can get it to load. I couldn't get the video to load. The game play stuff starts at around the 14 minute mark.
These are upcoming games, so they're not going to be out terribly soon, but they are in development.
I don't think TSW or GW2 are going to satisfy sandbox fans...not really. They could be really good games in themselves, but they are by no means sandbox mmorpg.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Arch Age - FFA pvp
TSW - FailCom is showing their greed with their subscription fee and cash shop business model. Suck as much money out of your fans before they realize your game is a piese of shit, great plan.
GW2 - While looking like a great game not a sandbox.
Why is Entropia Universe never discussed in these conversations?
It has been around close to 10 years, has new graphics(cryengine 2 same as crysis) Sandbox with safe zones as well as pvp areas. It is a sandbox game but they are adding more themed elements to it and will cater to both sides of the fence I think.
Their recent addition of the Arctic on Rocktropia with the themed missions based on the upcomming prequil "The Thing" (in theaters oct14th) really shows some promise for their upcomming releases.
Next week is supposidly going to be one of their biggest updates of all time. (time will tell what it brings)
narfi
Playing with Real Money: Colonizing Virtual Worlds
Isn't Entropia Universe the ultimate expression of a cash shop? Sure in some ways it counts as a sandbox, but when something becomes a microcosm of a real world economy, complete with the have nots being walked all over by the haves, it ceases to be a game.
All I see are lists with sandboxy PVP games, sort of sandboxy themeparks, and a few retro-styled EQ clones.
Closest that I know of to a sandbox that's currently in release is Xsyon.
It can be that, if that is what you want it to be.
It is not what I want and therefor it is not what it is for me.
You can play this game wthout spending a dime and excell at it. Sure it takes alot of dedication and intelegence but it is possible. Or you can spend what you would on a normal subscription game and play fairly easily as long as you dont do stupid stuff all the time. Or you can waste as much money as you want being stupid all the time.
It is a game, it is chalanging, and because there is that 3rd catagory the rest of us can play much cheaper.
It is all about how you choose to play.
And because I have that choice, it is the ultimate sandbox game for me.
narfi
Playing with Real Money: Colonizing Virtual Worlds
Oh RuneScape. The first game I ever played. Although the game is still java based and filled with 8-year olds, it will always have a place in my heart. But the poster is right. RuneScape gives you A LOT of choices. You can choose to simply skill, or just fight. There are NO classes and once you hit the level cap, you can always keep crafting to continue making money.
I may get ripped to shreds after saying this, but Runescape actually does have some pretty sandboxy elements, despite the "Cartoon-Network" style graphics..
I've tried Entropia a number of times over the years and have refused to spend more than $15/mo on it. On that amount of money I found myself spending far too many hours sweating mobs for every hour I spent enjoying a view that didn't involve the arse end of an Ambulimax. That isn't freedom. But it definitely is a sandbox. It's just a sandbox for people that believe their MMO entertainment is worth far more than $15/mo.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
Gotta love American culture!!!
Then Ultima is not a sandbox either and no sandbox have ever been made.Theme park is a game that set you on a predetermine path or has predetermine paths.Sandbox has no predetermine paths.WoW or Rifts you are suppose to go recommend area to level.Sandbox lets you go everywhere and play how you want.Freedom vs Set choice.
Just because Mortal Online and Darkfall are not good sandboxes does not mean they are not sandboxes.Ulitma is a deeper sandbox better game than mortal but all games except Vanguard(and fallen earth) are sandboxes.Now you question level of complexity of each sandboxes and lack of features but they are still sandboxes.
did he just compare planetside 2 and WoW?
stones, selling stones! sharp ones, blunt ones.. funny ones! aaaaapple pie stones!
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"