"racer" term is flawed cuz you are still grinding before hiting cap and still grinding some more when raiding
Not really. Cause "grind" is synonymous with "boring" to me. If it's boring, I move on. So I never "grind". The moment I feel the grind, I adapt or move on to something new. At end level I do PvP. When I do that I usually get some nice gear along with it. I would happily be without the "gear" part, cause that can be a "grind", but I accept that MMO's in it's current state is primarly about gear, then the skills. Unfortunately.
I come to think about SWG pre NCU days. I was there at it's release. It took just few days to change a tree to something else. It was superfast to get "maxxed out". Who did ruin this? Who forced in the "grind" into SWG? Not me for sure. I liked the game. I was truly a fan, even though it had it's flaws (shops dissapearing, armor useless in PvP etc etc).
Now the game is changed into something totally different, with a huge "grind" to get to end level. Now, are you "grinders" satisfied with the result? Probably not... Even though you should be.
What I really cannot understand, at all, why so many "grinders" bother about those who really just want to experience end level content. Whats the big deal here? If someone wants to race to end level, why not let them? Some games just fail to deliver when it comes to a "journey", but the end level content teases me. Unfortunately the game forces me to be dragged through some endlessly painful content that makes me turn my back to the game before reaching "end level". Which means unsubbing. Myself, and I think alot of other "racers", don't bother about the "grinders" that want to grind through all quests and look into every corner of the map; good for you that you can enjoy it! The problem here is definately that the "grinders" is not accepting that "racers" want to play the game a whole different way. Now why is this such a problem for you "grinders"? I am not in your way at all, I am paying for the same game that you enjoys; which should be a win-win situation for us both. Still all this rage & hate... Discuss!
For the same reason there's a distaste for anything on this forum people don't agree with. A great many people think their way of doing things is the right way. Same way games get flamed, payment models, whatever you want to add. If I wasn't for attack threads and pure conjecture threads there would be very little to read on here.
I kind of see it the opposite way, the "grinders" in my experience are the ones racing to end game since it is usually more beneficial to grind on some places/quests/mobs/etc than it is to follow (and read) the story quests.
Imo those end game rushers can do whatever they please, but it's when they tend to so openly bitch/moan/complaing saying this and this sucks once getting there.. and that pretty much ruins it for those who havn't made it there yet.
It cheapens their grinding experience if somene else didn't 'accomplish' the same number of endless hours clicking the same five numbers (and whatever Get/Loot is) over and over.
Of all MMO players I know, it is the ones that prefer to "grind" that is somewhat most "special" in real life. If I can put it that way. Can this "demand" that grinders have, rely on some personality issues you think? I mean, forcing others to something they actually don't want to do, ain't actually the best personality trait to have...
The problem lies with the game design. A game cannot be designed to satisfy both the one who enjoys content and the grinders who like to grind end-game content endlessly, making those who you call "grinders" wonder how you can enjoy grinding only a tiny part of the content endlessly.
In WoW for instance being someone who enjoys exploring and experiencing everything is just annoying because the game tells you to move on through the fast leveling mechanics (content becomes even easier due to the huge level difference with the area, your progression stops, etc.). In a game with slow paced leveling you simply cannot "rush" that fast but you will be able to explore the entire game without the game telling you to f*ck off and move on making it much more enjoyable.
No player is forcing any other player to do anything, the games are.
Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt. Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.
I think the disconnect is in claiming that slower levelers are complaining about speed levelers, out of context. For no reason. That they just post out of no where telling speed levellers to slow down. That doesn't happen.
What does happen is when people race to the end and then complain about a lack of content then you'll hear people respond that it is the fault of the the speed levelers for charging to the end. In this case they are well within their right to respond to a publicly declared complaint to try and change a game they are playing.
For example, hypothetically, if you decided you wanted to spend all your time in a game that I also played, walking in a circle, I wouldn't say anything. If however you took to the forums to complain that devs needed to focus on and add content to reward you for walking in circles, I'd tell you to shut up.
It takes the same amount of XP to get to max level, whatever route you take, grinders tend to repeat the higher XP tasks in order to get to max level. Players tend to follow the storyline.
Grinders=Racers
I think some players have problems as game Devs throw resource at endgame to the detriment of the levelling to satisfy the Grinder/Racer.
Personally, if I play a game I expect to be thrown into the endgame from day 1, sandbox style.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
What I really cannot understand, at all, why so many "grinders" bother about those who really just want to experience end level content. Whats the big deal here? If someone wants to race to end level, why not let them? Some games just fail to deliver when it comes to a "journey", but the end level content teases me. Unfortunately the game forces me to be dragged through some endlessly painful content that makes me turn my back to the game before reaching "end level". Which means unsubbing.
Myself, and I think alot of other "racers", don't bother about the "grinders" that want to grind through all quests and look into every corner of the map; good for you that you can enjoy it! The problem here is definately that the "grinders" is not accepting that "racers" want to play the game a whole different way.
Now why is this such a problem for you "grinders"? I am not in your way at all, I am paying for the same game that you enjoys; which should be a win-win situation for us both. Still all this rage & hate...
Discuss!
As others have pointed out, this terminology isn't commonly used, so some of what you're saying might be understood. I'll assume that by "racer", you mean not just somebody who progresses towards endgame without getting sidetracked, but rather somebody who makes it a point to get to endgame within the shortest number of days after the game is released. If that's the case, I can explain why there's a negative attitude about racers.
Simply put, what they do tends to affect how people feel about the game. If someone reaches the level cap within three weeks of the game being released, just that simple statistic gives the impression that the game is too short. Somebody beat the game within three weeks, therefore anyone can get to the end of the game in three weeks, therefore why buy the game since it's an MMO that can only keep you entertained for three weeks? That's a totally illogical jump but it is an observation some potential players will make and consequently shy away from the game instead of subscribing.
Second, people who have the time and dedication to play a game all hours of the day for the first several days or weeks after release are more likely to have a strong presence on the game's forums (or any forums). The feedback given on forums by racers during the game's first weeks—which, let's face it, are basically still beta—comes purely from a racer standpoint. That feedback is disproportionately loud (since a disproportionate amount of racers post on forums) and as a result there is the danger that developers will change aspects of the game for the racers' sake, not realizing how few people actually desire those changes. Just as an obvious example case, racers will demand that developers immediaately concentrate on creating more endgame content and balancing the character classes at the level cap. This unavoidably takes manpower that could have been spend creating more midgame content and balancing the character classes at all levels.
And finally, whether it is deserved or not, there is the assumption that people who care the most about quickly achieving everything are also the most likely to break the game's rules in order to get there faster. This includes participating in RMT and exploiting bugs in the game, as well as lesser misconduct like ninja looting and mob training.
What I really cannot understand, at all, why so many "grinders" bother about those who really just want to experience end level content. Whats the big deal here? If someone wants to race to end level, why not let them? Some games just fail to deliver when it comes to a "journey", but the end level content teases me. Unfortunately the game forces me to be dragged through some endlessly painful content that makes me turn my back to the game before reaching "end level". Which means unsubbing.
Myself, and I think alot of other "racers", don't bother about the "grinders" that want to grind through all quests and look into every corner of the map; good for you that you can enjoy it! The problem here is definately that the "grinders" is not accepting that "racers" want to play the game a whole different way.
Now why is this such a problem for you "grinders"? I am not in your way at all, I am paying for the same game that you enjoys; which should be a win-win situation for us both. Still all this rage & hate...
Discuss!
You sure you aren't creating a "problem" where there is none, I've not read many if any comments whether in game or on this site that suggested anything other than that some people don't understand that style of play. It certainly isn't like the constant themepark players vs sandbox or questers vs raiders.
Maybe someone specific brought this about but whatever not sure this topic is really worthy of it's own post yet check back in a few years maybe????
The problem lies with the game design. A game cannot be designed to satisfy both the one who enjoys content and the grinders who like to grind end-game content endlessly, making those who you call "grinders" wonder how you can enjoy grinding only a tiny part of the content endlessly.
Not correct. I will bring up 2 games in a hurry that I feel caters both grinders & racers:
1. SWG (pre NCU). Splendig game if it were not for all the bugs.
2. World of Warcraft. I really love the end level PvP there. Too bad it makes me very aggressive. Probably cause I used to play it too hardcore.
And maybe:
3. Darkfall. Awesome design. Unfortunately the game requires too much of a grind for me; afk grinding to be "there" is just too much.
In WoW for instance being someone who enjoys exploring and experiencing everything is just annoying because the game tells you to move on through the fast leveling mechanics (content becomes even easier due to the huge level difference with the area, your progression stops, etc.). In a game with slow paced leveling you simply cannot "rush" that fast but you will be able to explore the entire game without the game telling you to f*ck off and move on making it much more enjoyable.
I don't see this a problem. I loved going back with my Paladin to solo "old" instances. Felt kinda über when I did it all alone. The true problem is when you are forced into a loooong "journey" with no option of racing to the end level; when majority of the game are "veterans" the game start to die, everyone are "end" level busy with their "own", while new players are left in a grey void with noone around. (Everquest 2 anyone?) I also immediately comes to think about Anarchy Online too. That game would be a beast if it were easier to solo to end level. Even though it's over 10 years old.
No player is forcing any other player to do anything, the games are.
Some people do show some attitude issues when it comes to this, trust me. I've been told countless times "how to enjoy" lots of games.
some peeps are getting confuzzed about grinding here. 'racers' don't grind because they enjoy it in fact they usually hate it, it is mearly a means to an end, in fact if another route was more effective in terms of xp an hour then they would take it. I know from experience that in a hardcore guild, the levelling experience is often unpleasant as you are under extreme pressure to get to max level before x amount of days to get 'raid ready'. It is a bizzare and counter productive state to be in where you rush past content in a game, to get to a point where content is limited.
The analogy I often use is that it is like buying a book I really want only to skim through the pages, hating it, and ignoring most of the words, then read the last page over and over, demanding more final pages from the author every 3 months. That be themepark/hardcore style racing
This is totally different from Grinders who grind because they enjoy it/find it relaxing as a way to drift through the game and to enjoy the sights. I have been in the former camp, and now firmly in the latter. Rule number 1, hide that damned xp bar and avoid any guid that says they are 'hardcore', until you have levelled up
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
I never noticed "grinders" just arbitrarily bitching about power-levelers except when those speed-players power-play without sleeping or eating and reach the end in record time only to complain endlessly about lack of content. Then go on to disparage the "crappy" game company for making a "shit game" that they couldn't play through non-stop for eternity.
I never noticed "grinders" just arbitrarily bitching about power-levelers except when those speed-players power-play without sleeping or eating and reach the end in record time only to complain endlessly about lack of content. Then go on to disparage the "crappy" game company for making a "shit game" that they couldn't play through non-stop for eternity.
I think you need to divide those end gamers into 2 different types:
1. PvE'ers. I can see they meet the "wall" at end level when they race for it.
2. PvP'ers. At "end level" the real deal starts for us. If there's bitching, it is usually (from me) that the game requires too much grind to get the gear needed to PvP.
What I really cannot understand, at all, why so many "grinders" bother about those who really just want to experience end level content. Whats the big deal here? If someone wants to race to end level, why not let them? Some games just fail to deliver when it comes to a "journey", but the end level content teases me. Unfortunately the game forces me to be dragged through some endlessly painful content that makes me turn my back to the game before reaching "end level". Which means unsubbing.
Myself, and I think alot of other "racers", don't bother about the "grinders" that want to grind through all quests and look into every corner of the map; good for you that you can enjoy it! The problem here is definately that the "grinders" is not accepting that "racers" want to play the game a whole different way.
Now why is this such a problem for you "grinders"? I am not in your way at all, I am paying for the same game that you enjoys; which should be a win-win situation for us both. Still all this rage & hate...
Discuss!
Because games are being developed for the people who rush to end game, thats why they are bothered!
For me honestly, it's not about rage or hate. Not even close. It is about the death of anything even resembling a community. The grinders will take their time, enjoy a game more, group more, and quite frankly make MUCH better guild members. The racers are the ones you'll see posting a month after a game launches how the game had no content. And they are more often than not the ones that complain the loudest about simple minded linear gameplay. And yet in their obsession to reach cap they follow the most narrow path to get there. I have run guilds, and been in many great ones over the years, and the racers are aweful guild members on average. They could generally care less about the guild, its members, etc. It's all about them, the cap, and the shinny crap that waits there. The problem isn't that racer/grinder is even, it's that the racer mentality has and now does make up the majority of gamers. Zero patience. Zero grouping. Now this is obviously just my opinion, and I have powerleveled/raced toons to endgame. But only after I've enjoyed the journey the first time. And that mentality doesn't define me. If someone needs help, even a member 40 levels lower, I jump on an alt and help them, level with them, etc. With the racer, that is pretty much not going to happen. The instant gratification of the console gamer has invaded the PC world, and it's not changing any time soon. In the end, do I care if you powerlevel to cap? No. To each his/her own. Whatever you find to be fun, do that. I just think the racers are missing the point of what an MMO really is, or should be.
The problem lies with the game design. A game cannot be designed to satisfy both the one who enjoys content and the grinders who like to grind end-game content endlessly, making those who you call "grinders" wonder how you can enjoy grinding only a tiny part of the content endlessly.
Not correct. I will bring up 2 games in a hurry that I feel caters both grinders & racers:
This is the main issue here, there is no correct or wrong just "feelings" and "opinions".
1. SWG (pre NCU). Splendig game if it were not for all the bugs.
2. World of Warcraft. I really love the end level PvP there. Too bad it makes me very aggressive. Probably cause I used to play it too hardcore.
And maybe:
3. Darkfall. Awesome design. Unfortunately the game requires too much of a grind for me; afk grinding to be "there" is just too much.
In WoW for instance being someone who enjoys exploring and experiencing everything is just annoying because the game tells you to move on through the fast leveling mechanics (content becomes even easier due to the huge level difference with the area, your progression stops, etc.). In a game with slow paced leveling you simply cannot "rush" that fast but you will be able to explore the entire game without the game telling you to f*ck off and move on making it much more enjoyable.
I don't see this a problem. I loved going back with my Paladin to solo "old" instances. Felt kinda über when I did it all alone. The true problem is when you are forced into a loooong "journey" with no option of racing to the end level; when majority of the game are "veterans" the game start to die, everyone are "end" level busy with their "own", while new players are left in a grey void with noone around. (Everquest 2 anyone?) I also immediately comes to think about Anarchy Online too. That game would be a beast if it were easier to solo to end level. Even though it's over 10 years old.
Well , didn't you categorize yourself as a racer? Off course you won't see the problem with a game designed to please you
There may be players who disagree with me but i'd personally like to be able to feel an entire world and at the same time progress. Not having to chose from one or an other.
Now the problem you described is indeed a good point to raise, but there is a way to actually fix that: no end game content, the entire game is the end game. Look at EVE , players can already join in the PVP fun after just a couple of weeks training. You don't need a titan "to play the game".
No player is forcing any other player to do anything, the games are.
Some people do show some attitude issues when it comes to this, trust me. I've been told countless times "how to enjoy" lots of games.
Well that's true, but what they say doesn't matter , ignore them, usually they can't physically force you to do it anyway.
Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt. Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.
I never noticed "grinders" just arbitrarily bitching about power-levelers except when those speed-players power-play without sleeping or eating and reach the end in record time only to complain endlessly about lack of content. Then go on to disparage the "crappy" game company for making a "shit game" that they couldn't play through non-stop for eternity.
I think you need to divide those end gamers into 2 different types:
1. PvE'ers. I can see they meet the "wall" at end level when they race for it.
2. PvP'ers. At "end level" the real deal starts for us. If there's bitching, it is usually (from me) that the game requires too much grind to get the gear needed to PvP.
I never noticed "grinders" just arbitrarily bitching about power-levelers except when those speed-players power-play without sleeping or eating and reach the end in record time only to complain endlessly about lack of content. Then go on to disparage the "crappy" game company for making a "shit game" that they couldn't play through non-stop for eternity.
I think you need to divide those end gamers into 2 different types:
1. PvE'ers. I can see they meet the "wall" at end level when they race for it.
2. PvP'ers. At "end level" the real deal starts for us. If there's bitching, it is usually (from me) that the game requires too much grind to get the gear needed to PvP.
Mmm. Suddenly it all clicks into place, and the labels you've chosen make more sense.
You're part of that group who, while the American version of Aion was still in its infancy, gave the devs an ultimatum. Everyone and all their guilds were going to pack up and leave if exp gain and drop rates weren't significantly increased, because clearly not a single person outside of Korea would dare tolerate the sheer insanity of the grind to 50 where the "real deal" starts. Meanwhile, me and all the other normal players—doing solo quest hubs, grouping for some instances, occasionally bringing a group to elites, crafting on the side, helping our faction in Abyss wars, exploring, all while holding down a 9-to-5 job and other responsibilities—were stuck saying, "what supposedly insane grind are you talking about? If I managed to get to 35 this fast without putting any effort into it, there's nothing wrong with the pace of the game."
But they did cave very quickly and started boosting quest exp and mob exp, boosting drop rates, holding double exp weekends every weekend, all to appeal to what you're calling "racers". You've presented the issue as racers vs. grinders because in your mind, people need a negative-sounding label to describe them if they tolerate delayed gratification in an MMO.
I usually don't give a rat's left nut if people want to blast through a game to reach the level cap as quickly as possible (god only knows why they do it as there is no special prize waiting for them at the end). What annoys the shit out of me are those that bitch and whine about the lack of things to do when they get there and the lack of other people to do things with.
Because games are being developed for the people who rush to end game, thats why they are bothered!
Ehm. Let's look at World of Warcraft; it is packed with content. Plenty to do for years for anyone. It also offers a super fast way to end level. Which is one of the core functions that has made it so damn successful if you ask me.
Originally posted by Vlad_Tepes
For me honestly, it's not about rage or hate. Not even close. It is about the death of anything even resembling a community. The grinders will take their time, enjoy a game more, group more, and quite frankly make MUCH better guild members. The racers are the ones you'll see posting a month after a game launches how the game had no content. And they are more often than not the ones that complain the loudest about simple minded linear gameplay. And yet in their obsession to reach cap they follow the most narrow path to get there. I have run guilds, and been in many great ones over the years, and the racers are aweful guild members on average. They could generally care less about the guild, its members, etc. It's all about them, the cap, and the shinny crap that waits there. The problem isn't that racer/grinder is even, it's that the racer mentality has and now does make up the majority of gamers. Zero patience. Zero grouping. Now this is obviously just my opinion, and I have powerleveled/raced toons to endgame. But only after I've enjoyed the journey the first time. And that mentality doesn't define me. If someone needs help, even a member 40 levels lower, I jump on an alt and help them, level with them, etc. With the racer, that is pretty much not going to happen. The instant gratification of the console gamer has invaded the PC world, and it's not changing any time soon. In the end, do I care if you powerlevel to cap? No. To each his/her own. Whatever you find to be fun, do that. I just think the racers are missing the point of what an MMO really is, or should be.
Maybe. I have run several guilds myself. I always make priority of guild matters and/or friends first. This might be "enhancing" my own approach of being forced into be a "racer", since being a guild leader is time consuming. But, games today are an excellent bowl for selfish people. It is from time to time very non-rewarding running guilds, because there are very few who truly understands the value of friendship in games. So they stray onto their own business one day or another. Which ruins the interest from the interested ones too. It is like a rolling snowball when it first starts.
But the question is; why bother about the racers whine when you are having a good time? The game should be "set" for content all the way at it's release, or else it should not be released. Take a look back at SWG pre NCU. They did that part correct. Now, with that in mind, the arguements of gaming companies not focusing upon "mid level content" becomes void; cause there should be no "starting level content, mid level content or end level content" if you ask me. There should be just "content".
What I really cannot understand, at all, why so many "grinders" bother about those who really just want to experience end level content. Whats the big deal here? If someone wants to race to end level, why not let them? Some games just fail to deliver when it comes to a "journey", but the end level content teases me. Unfortunately the game forces me to be dragged through some endlessly painful content that makes me turn my back to the game before reaching "end level". Which means unsubbing.
Myself, and I think alot of other "racers", don't bother about the "grinders" that want to grind through all quests and look into every corner of the map; good for you that you can enjoy it! The problem here is definately that the "grinders" is not accepting that "racers" want to play the game a whole different way.
Now why is this such a problem for you "grinders"? I am not in your way at all, I am paying for the same game that you enjoys; which should be a win-win situation for us both. Still all this rage & hate...
Discuss!
The problem is the sheer majority of "racers" in MMO's these days that treat them like console games as if it shoudl have some "I win" feature and an ending is why developer's fail on the journey. Why put effort into the journey if most just want blow past it to get to "end game" (Which I still say is a term that does NOT belong in MMO's...EVER) so they can brag about their shiney epic lootz and about their "1st's" on their respective servers.
Not to mention how they sit around at the top and cry and whine their isn't enough content...which ironically....is the majority they blew past to get to their end game content.
It cheapens their grinding experience if somene else didn't 'accomplish' the same number of endless hours clicking the same five numbers (and whatever Get/Loot is) over and over.
Yeah, because end game is in NO WAY the same endless clicking grind. /eyeroll
Comments
Not really. Cause "grind" is synonymous with "boring" to me. If it's boring, I move on. So I never "grind". The moment I feel the grind, I adapt or move on to something new. At end level I do PvP. When I do that I usually get some nice gear along with it. I would happily be without the "gear" part, cause that can be a "grind", but I accept that MMO's in it's current state is primarly about gear, then the skills. Unfortunately.
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
I come to think about SWG pre NCU days. I was there at it's release. It took just few days to change a tree to something else. It was superfast to get "maxxed out". Who did ruin this? Who forced in the "grind" into SWG? Not me for sure. I liked the game. I was truly a fan, even though it had it's flaws (shops dissapearing, armor useless in PvP etc etc).
Now the game is changed into something totally different, with a huge "grind" to get to end level. Now, are you "grinders" satisfied with the result? Probably not... Even though you should be.
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
For the same reason there's a distaste for anything on this forum people don't agree with. A great many people think their way of doing things is the right way. Same way games get flamed, payment models, whatever you want to add. If I wasn't for attack threads and pure conjecture threads there would be very little to read on here.I kind of see it the opposite way, the "grinders" in my experience are the ones racing to end game since it is usually more beneficial to grind on some places/quests/mobs/etc than it is to follow (and read) the story quests.
Imo those end game rushers can do whatever they please, but it's when they tend to so openly bitch/moan/complaing saying this and this sucks once getting there.. and that pretty much ruins it for those who havn't made it there yet.
The problem lies with the game design. A game cannot be designed to satisfy both the one who enjoys content and the grinders who like to grind end-game content endlessly, making those who you call "grinders" wonder how you can enjoy grinding only a tiny part of the content endlessly.
In WoW for instance being someone who enjoys exploring and experiencing everything is just annoying because the game tells you to move on through the fast leveling mechanics (content becomes even easier due to the huge level difference with the area, your progression stops, etc.). In a game with slow paced leveling you simply cannot "rush" that fast but you will be able to explore the entire game without the game telling you to f*ck off and move on making it much more enjoyable.
No player is forcing any other player to do anything, the games are.
Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt.
Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.
I think the disconnect is in claiming that slower levelers are complaining about speed levelers, out of context. For no reason. That they just post out of no where telling speed levellers to slow down. That doesn't happen.
What does happen is when people race to the end and then complain about a lack of content then you'll hear people respond that it is the fault of the the speed levelers for charging to the end. In this case they are well within their right to respond to a publicly declared complaint to try and change a game they are playing.
For example, hypothetically, if you decided you wanted to spend all your time in a game that I also played, walking in a circle, I wouldn't say anything. If however you took to the forums to complain that devs needed to focus on and add content to reward you for walking in circles, I'd tell you to shut up.
It takes the same amount of XP to get to max level, whatever route you take, grinders tend to repeat the higher XP tasks in order to get to max level. Players tend to follow the storyline.
Grinders=Racers
I think some players have problems as game Devs throw resource at endgame to the detriment of the levelling to satisfy the Grinder/Racer.
Personally, if I play a game I expect to be thrown into the endgame from day 1, sandbox style.Too many vaguely-defined labels in this topic.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
All well said... Only one small thing (2 actually):
'end-game' is an other term for the threadmill where you do the same daily quests / raids over and over again till the next update comes
sandboxes don't have an 'end-game' content in the first place ;-)
As others have pointed out, this terminology isn't commonly used, so some of what you're saying might be understood. I'll assume that by "racer", you mean not just somebody who progresses towards endgame without getting sidetracked, but rather somebody who makes it a point to get to endgame within the shortest number of days after the game is released. If that's the case, I can explain why there's a negative attitude about racers.
Simply put, what they do tends to affect how people feel about the game. If someone reaches the level cap within three weeks of the game being released, just that simple statistic gives the impression that the game is too short. Somebody beat the game within three weeks, therefore anyone can get to the end of the game in three weeks, therefore why buy the game since it's an MMO that can only keep you entertained for three weeks? That's a totally illogical jump but it is an observation some potential players will make and consequently shy away from the game instead of subscribing.
Second, people who have the time and dedication to play a game all hours of the day for the first several days or weeks after release are more likely to have a strong presence on the game's forums (or any forums). The feedback given on forums by racers during the game's first weeks—which, let's face it, are basically still beta—comes purely from a racer standpoint. That feedback is disproportionately loud (since a disproportionate amount of racers post on forums) and as a result there is the danger that developers will change aspects of the game for the racers' sake, not realizing how few people actually desire those changes. Just as an obvious example case, racers will demand that developers immediaately concentrate on creating more endgame content and balancing the character classes at the level cap. This unavoidably takes manpower that could have been spend creating more midgame content and balancing the character classes at all levels.
And finally, whether it is deserved or not, there is the assumption that people who care the most about quickly achieving everything are also the most likely to break the game's rules in order to get there faster. This includes participating in RMT and exploiting bugs in the game, as well as lesser misconduct like ninja looting and mob training.
You sure you aren't creating a "problem" where there is none, I've not read many if any comments whether in game or on this site that suggested anything other than that some people don't understand that style of play. It certainly isn't like the constant themepark players vs sandbox or questers vs raiders.
Maybe someone specific brought this about but whatever not sure this topic is really worthy of it's own post yet check back in a few years maybe????
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
All well said... Only one small thing (2 actually):
'end-game' is an other term for the threadmill where you do the same daily quests / raids over and over again till the next update comes
sandboxes don't have an 'end-game' content in the first place ;-)
Should have said "endgame" sandboxes are a journey and endgame fused togethersome peeps are getting confuzzed about grinding here. 'racers' don't grind because they enjoy it in fact they usually hate it, it is mearly a means to an end, in fact if another route was more effective in terms of xp an hour then they would take it. I know from experience that in a hardcore guild, the levelling experience is often unpleasant as you are under extreme pressure to get to max level before x amount of days to get 'raid ready'. It is a bizzare and counter productive state to be in where you rush past content in a game, to get to a point where content is limited.
The analogy I often use is that it is like buying a book I really want only to skim through the pages, hating it, and ignoring most of the words, then read the last page over and over, demanding more final pages from the author every 3 months. That be themepark/hardcore style racing
This is totally different from Grinders who grind because they enjoy it/find it relaxing as a way to drift through the game and to enjoy the sights. I have been in the former camp, and now firmly in the latter. Rule number 1, hide that damned xp bar and avoid any guid that says they are 'hardcore', until you have levelled up
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
I never noticed "grinders" just arbitrarily bitching about power-levelers except when those speed-players power-play without sleeping or eating and reach the end in record time only to complain endlessly about lack of content. Then go on to disparage the "crappy" game company for making a "shit game" that they couldn't play through non-stop for eternity.
I think you need to divide those end gamers into 2 different types:
1. PvE'ers. I can see they meet the "wall" at end level when they race for it.
2. PvP'ers. At "end level" the real deal starts for us. If there's bitching, it is usually (from me) that the game requires too much grind to get the gear needed to PvP.
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
Because games are being developed for the people who rush to end game, thats why they are bothered!
For me honestly, it's not about rage or hate. Not even close. It is about the death of anything even resembling a community. The grinders will take their time, enjoy a game more, group more, and quite frankly make MUCH better guild members. The racers are the ones you'll see posting a month after a game launches how the game had no content. And they are more often than not the ones that complain the loudest about simple minded linear gameplay. And yet in their obsession to reach cap they follow the most narrow path to get there. I have run guilds, and been in many great ones over the years, and the racers are aweful guild members on average. They could generally care less about the guild, its members, etc. It's all about them, the cap, and the shinny crap that waits there. The problem isn't that racer/grinder is even, it's that the racer mentality has and now does make up the majority of gamers. Zero patience. Zero grouping. Now this is obviously just my opinion, and I have powerleveled/raced toons to endgame. But only after I've enjoyed the journey the first time. And that mentality doesn't define me. If someone needs help, even a member 40 levels lower, I jump on an alt and help them, level with them, etc. With the racer, that is pretty much not going to happen. The instant gratification of the console gamer has invaded the PC world, and it's not changing any time soon. In the end, do I care if you powerlevel to cap? No. To each his/her own. Whatever you find to be fun, do that. I just think the racers are missing the point of what an MMO really is, or should be.
Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt.
Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.
Fair enough.
Mmm. Suddenly it all clicks into place, and the labels you've chosen make more sense.
You're part of that group who, while the American version of Aion was still in its infancy, gave the devs an ultimatum. Everyone and all their guilds were going to pack up and leave if exp gain and drop rates weren't significantly increased, because clearly not a single person outside of Korea would dare tolerate the sheer insanity of the grind to 50 where the "real deal" starts. Meanwhile, me and all the other normal players—doing solo quest hubs, grouping for some instances, occasionally bringing a group to elites, crafting on the side, helping our faction in Abyss wars, exploring, all while holding down a 9-to-5 job and other responsibilities—were stuck saying, "what supposedly insane grind are you talking about? If I managed to get to 35 this fast without putting any effort into it, there's nothing wrong with the pace of the game."
But they did cave very quickly and started boosting quest exp and mob exp, boosting drop rates, holding double exp weekends every weekend, all to appeal to what you're calling "racers". You've presented the issue as racers vs. grinders because in your mind, people need a negative-sounding label to describe them if they tolerate delayed gratification in an MMO.
I usually don't give a rat's left nut if people want to blast through a game to reach the level cap as quickly as possible (god only knows why they do it as there is no special prize waiting for them at the end). What annoys the shit out of me are those that bitch and whine about the lack of things to do when they get there and the lack of other people to do things with.
Ehm. Let's look at World of Warcraft; it is packed with content. Plenty to do for years for anyone. It also offers a super fast way to end level. Which is one of the core functions that has made it so damn successful if you ask me.
Maybe. I have run several guilds myself. I always make priority of guild matters and/or friends first. This might be "enhancing" my own approach of being forced into be a "racer", since being a guild leader is time consuming. But, games today are an excellent bowl for selfish people. It is from time to time very non-rewarding running guilds, because there are very few who truly understands the value of friendship in games. So they stray onto their own business one day or another. Which ruins the interest from the interested ones too. It is like a rolling snowball when it first starts.
But the question is; why bother about the racers whine when you are having a good time? The game should be "set" for content all the way at it's release, or else it should not be released. Take a look back at SWG pre NCU. They did that part correct. Now, with that in mind, the arguements of gaming companies not focusing upon "mid level content" becomes void; cause there should be no "starting level content, mid level content or end level content" if you ask me. There should be just "content".
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
The problem is the sheer majority of "racers" in MMO's these days that treat them like console games as if it shoudl have some "I win" feature and an ending is why developer's fail on the journey. Why put effort into the journey if most just want blow past it to get to "end game" (Which I still say is a term that does NOT belong in MMO's...EVER) so they can brag about their shiney epic lootz and about their "1st's" on their respective servers.
Not to mention how they sit around at the top and cry and whine their isn't enough content...which ironically....is the majority they blew past to get to their end game content.
Yeah, because end game is in NO WAY the same endless clicking grind. /eyeroll