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A glaring issue with combat in MMOs
Gabby-air
Member UncommonPosts: 3,440
One major problem I've had with MMOs is that the combat always felt so slow and dull, with a huge shift towards action in single player games this issue became increasingly annoying. Then I played some fast paced games like wow and AOC and you know I realized what the problem really was.
Combat breaks down to staring at the UI, waiting for cooldowns to finish or in AOC's case, looking at which directional key to click next. It totally detracts from the expereince and makes for a dull game. In EQ2 you have some 4 lines of just skill bars at the bottom of your screen, and in many games these skills are so similar it's just stupid. I'm still amazed when I see people playing a raid in wow and all you see is 10 add ons telling what skill to do next.
I think Guild wars does a great job of limiting the player with skills but I've yet to see if if playing the UI is still going to happen rather than the game.
It is just me or does any one else not like the way this works, I'm also interested in hearing people's thoughts about why they actually like this sort of combat.
Comments
Combat should all be about dice rolls... Selecting the right skill for the right time, and hoping the dice roll in your favor.
I agree 100%. There was a time that auto attack and a few skills were all we had. It was all we needed. More skills was never something I wanted.
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To me it's all about what makes the world feel immersive, believable, and alive. It's funny that you describe WoW as a fast-paced MMO because in my experience it's very drawn out and methodical. Dice rolling can be immersive if it doesn't detract from the believability of the world, however I generally agree with the sentiment of the original poster:
I would rather play in a world that translates innate, intuitive perceptions into skill... if I see something 10 meters away then I would like to react to it as though I were 10 meters away in real life or as if I were living in whatever world the game was set in. This creates a much more immersive experience than building up a set of skills for my avatar and managing them in sequence.
Gracefully implementing this sort of perceptual observe-and-react combat necessitates a robust physics system, and Vendetta Online accomplishes this very effectively.
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I want a MMO like Vanguard - a game where many dynamic things happen at the same time and I have to think which button to press next.
Vanguard has:
- two basic pools - mana and endurance
- special abilities depending upon separate counters - where you have to raise the counters first, depending upon class
- special abilities with cooldowns - cant just use them all the time
- critical hit followups - if you score a critical hit, depending upon class, you get special abilities open. This can be damage, but it can also be, for example, a group buff.
- block and parry followups - if you manage to block and/or parry, depending upon class, you get special abilities open. Again theres multiple possibilities what they will do. Damage is again an obvious choice, but another example is for example a rune that reduces incoming damage for a certain number of attacks.
- weaknesses and exploits - from using certain skills, opponents gain certain weaknesses. Classes have abilities to exploit these weaknesses for extra effects.
- Of course much, much more, depending upon class. Such as abilities to force a critical hit.
So far none of the classes is like I hear it from many other games - just press the same three keys over and over. Even relatively straightforward classes such as Sorcerer cant do it, because there are recast timers on the real big spells.
Imo wow combat is the best....AOC combat sucks balls, too many combos, having to press the arrows to make the combos..lol
Wow has loads of skills not needed, useless etc..but in general its the best, fast, sharp, responsive, easy enough, camera angles are perfect, sounds are just perfecly in sync with the animations...
There was a nice dev chat on blizzards homepage about the number of abilities, if you only hit "autoattack" and nothing else you get bored rather fast but if you have to remember 400 combos you get overwhelmed to.
Think AoC is rather nice from a combat point, and well who can resist a Raki Monk in Vanguard
This is always something that's bugged me about MMOs and why the time I spend playing them is rapidly decreasing.
Once the novelty of a new game wears off, it's things like combat that keeps you involved. Graphics, lore, etc, etc can only hold a player for so long, which is why FPS and DOTA -style games do so well despite being comparatively shallow.
I wish MMO designers would pick-up on this and incorporate a more action-oriented combat system into their games. On the rare occasion this does happen, it's either clunky (Age of Conan) or at the expense of game-depth (Global Agenda).
I think too many MMO gamers bleat on that it can't or shouldn't be done, which is wrong. I think much of this is a defensive reaction to the prospect that FPS twitch gaming (which they dislike) may begin to dominate the genre.
Having thought hard about this, I'd go with a system that uses the following controls:
Keys F1 - F4 (and mouse scroll wheel)
Assign offensive/primary skills (each with an alt. fire) of your choice. Pressing the key selects the skill but doesn't trigger it, in the same way you'd select a weapon in an FPS game.
Number keys 1 - 4
Assign utility skills that trigger instantly on keypress (would operate in exactly the same way as in WOW, etc), e.g. teleport, silence, mana shields, etc.
Left Mouse
Tap = Fire spell or swing weapon, etc
Hold down = Alt attack, e.g. build-up giant fireball that launches on release.
Right mouse
Move view / crosshair / targetting reticule as per WOW, COD4, etc. The opponent would have to be a) targetted and b) in range for the action to connect.
This set-up would be a hybrid of FPS, MMO and a bit of Diablo. I think it would work well because you'd be limited in what you could take out on to the battlefield (a la Guildwars) preventing the gamer getting overwhelmed with options. Secondly, there'd be scope for developing a preferred skills set. Thirdly, targetting would introduce an element of skill, which could still be offset by % chances to dodge, block, parry, etc
I'm certainly waiting for a deep, AAA MMO with a control system like this. I thought the Chronicles of Spellbourne was bloody close but the game was just too weird for me and they also went and introduced a rolling skillwheel system, which made the whole thing clunky for me.
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That reminds me of two games, torchlight which had the combat down very nicely and I absolutely loved.
Then comes chronicles of spellborn, such a great game, although twitch it had so many things great about it.
I like Pre-CU SWG autolocking, I like the sword and board combat in Oblivion, and I like FPS WWIIONLINE/Planetside; but I don't like 3rd person shooters like post-CU SWG or Tabula Rasa.
Is there something wrong with me, or is there something wrong with the games? How can I like both the horse and donkey, but loath the mule?
Yeah, I'm not a fan of mmo combat either. I rather like AoC's combat but I do agree that you still do stare at the combo directions from time to time.
If you count it as an mmo then probably the best combat I've experienced is from Vindictus. I much prefer combat dictated by the player rather than dice rolls.
I'll probably get hate for this, but I think WoW's PvP combat pacing is outstanding. Especially for classes like the Rogue, Feral Druid, etc.
I think PvE is bound to be boring until the tech can handle putting in combat systems like console games, nothing is really going to change that.
The only game i've played that does combat right is Continent of the Ninth... a korean game, look it up on youtube and you can find some videos of the game in action... the combat is simply amazing... hopefully it comes out in NA soon.
Isn't the combat similar to Vindictus? That's how it looks on the videos at least.
Millions of people are playing these games. If there is a problem, it lies with you. Your issue you need to deal with it. Perhaps mmoRPGs are not a fit for you.
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Sort of yes, but it's quite a bit better. I read a few impressions of the game and people were amazed by the combat, it's much more like say Tera plus devil may cry.
Perhaps your right, I've been playing the wrong genre for over 6 years. Derp.
Millions of MMO players are playing wow and I already stated that it had perhaps one of the best combat, in my opinion it had the most fun combat in any MMO ive played but that doesn't mean people wouldn't like to have it made better. I know for a fact that every single person in our guild hated the fact that you were so focused on the UI, bit in comparison to say Lotro, wow sounds a lot better and thats their best avilalbe option now isn't it?
You are being sarcastic right?
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
There is no arbitrary numbers roll for that fight. Everything can be accounted for based on physics. In video games there is a dice roll that determines if you hit or miss. I personally hate that dice roll. However, we probably don't have the technology yet in our gaming systems to accurately portray real life combat with all of the variables involved. So I accept, grudgingly, that dice rolls are there in place of all the calculations necessary.
Actually, if you look at Olympic level athletes from say, figure skating, diving, etc, you'll find that through training and practice, they can, and are required to be able to control their body to that level of precision.
Although, there's definitely a bit of an RNG in that battle though, the rock that Hector trips on is totally like the 'tripping' mechanic in Smash Brothers Brawl.