I've said it before, a true sandbox MMORPG would be a hybrid of what we call sandbox and themepark. For a sandbox MMO to stay true to it's goal of allowing players the freedom to play any way they choose, it needs to have plenty of developer created conent. That content can come in many forms, such as 'prestige' classes, reputations, factions and yes even scripted quests, dungeons and raids.
No, actually themepark and sandbox are mutually exclusive.
Minecraft, the ultimate sandbox. What would a quest which rewards a pre-built uber-castle in Minecraft do? Players would stop building castles and do the quest instead, then everyone would have the same pre-built castle.
Except of course, that the completion of the quest might instead bestow upon you X amount of blocks of Unobtanium. Unobtaniom has properties that make it highly desirable in making castles, but cannot be mined in the world.
Yeah exactly, despite the avatar reference, good example .
Sandbox and themepark are only mutually exclusive if you look at them from the close minded perspective of themepark=wow and sandbox=UO. These games are just specific examples of a themepark and a sandbox. They do not define the genre.
Instead, try to look at sandbox and themepark at their most basic levels. Themepark being developer content and sandbox being player driven content. When you look at them this way, you see that there are plenty of ways to combine these two.
Create an engine for players to create quests to further their goals that play out like themepark quests for other players, just one example...
Crafter based loot system doesnt belong in a themepark. When you kill something to get that nice item, you sure dont simply want money to drop. Money that is going to be used to buy the same thing over and over due to needed decay. Gaming isnt about fun, just a money sink.
Player created content? No thanks...I prefer the game world to be crafted by the Devs. It is what they are being paid for. I dont wanna see some player made house thrown down whereever someone wishes.
FFA PVP? Better be on a specialized server, else you have relegated the game to a niche following.
The original EQ was as sandboxy as a themepark needs to be IMO.
As long as I have been coming to this site, you sandboxers have got it thru your heads that your gamestyle is hugely popular in the MMO world....it isnt.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Minecraft has sold more games than War, Lotro and AoC together and more players than WoW. Themeparks are as unpopular as they can be^^
The fault of most mmos is either to be niche and not tell so or to be generalistic but attract only niche players bcs of tight minded focus on parts of the gameplay.
A really good mmo would offer each type of gameplay a niche to exist. But you have to plan it from the very beginning of a mmo. Why not make a mmo modular? Modules contain gameplay targetted at a specific group of players but overall the mmo offers modules for any type of gameplay. The mmo world becomes a social hub where players can interact, try other gameplay elements.
Especially the sandbox elements of the gameplay have much longevity compared to the themepark content. Look at WOW, there is a reason they have to make anything b4 the next expansions worthless to force the players to go for the next round of the hamsterwheel.
Themeparks have gone so far and reached their end!
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
Player created content? No thanks...I prefer the game world to be crafted by the Devs. It is what they are being paid for. I dont wanna see some player made house thrown down whereever someone wishes.
Nice jump. Let's argue against creation by bringing up a mistake a sandbox made 14 years ago. Items? No thanks. I don't want to camp the same mob for 8 hours for a 25% chance of him spawning and a 10% chance that he drops his rare item. What you mean there have been innovations since the original Everquest? Inconceivable!
The only problem sandbox MMORPGs have had is... There hasn't been a creative enough team in the modern era of graphics to put in the proper work such a title needs.
I mean aside from social focus games like Entropia or however it's spelled and Second Life the only other success story is EVE and well it's a game where you're basically a space boat. There's changes being made of course...
But the last sandbox game that I'm aware of to offer action in a variety of ways was Shadowbane. It's only real flaw was that it aged like a fruit fly and there were graphically stunning games like WoW with it's reactive animation and EQ2 with a lot of investment on the art style (it was far from realistic).
There's nothing wrong with the seperation. MMORPGs as a genre is showing it's maturity by admitting that there are different audiences. You can't rely on bringing in a lot of "MMORPG players" because that term is irrelevant.
Plus a lot of other genres are borrowing a lot of the MMORPG genre's functions and confusing the scene even more.
We just need a sandbox developer to really put a large scale effort to it. Hell give me 10% of the cash that's went into making TOR a gabbing WoW-clone and I could find the people willing to make the game.
But.. Who'd make that investment when there's an obvious source to imitate?
I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.
I fully agree with the OP. I never liked using those terms.
The division is completely arbitrary and also harmful. Like in many things, they usually are not just black or white but something in between. Usually it is also the best solution.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
I have to agree, both devs and players seems to think that MMOs must be extreme one or the other. There are a few exceptions like Vanguard but the middle s very empty and that is too bad.
But it seems like all devs either want to make a new Wow or a new UO, so it is just another good example of devs with very little imagination.
It is fine that some games are extreme one way or another but there should be a lot more games in the middle. While themeparks have a way to attract players and take care of the noobs that sandboxes misses, sandboxes endgame is a lot better than raiding, daily quests and battlegrounds.
I blame EA and Activision as usual, both those companies have too many eggs in their baskets, and neither of them believe much in trying new stuff. There was a time when both those companies pioneered games that the world never seen before, but that stopped at the same time Commodore went out of busniess.
its easier for a community to give things a name..... i prefer sandbox features and theme park features.... there is nothing like true Sandbox or true Themepark games.... everything is currently somehow a mix of features from both camps...
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Crafter based loot system doesnt belong in a themepark. When you kill something to get that nice item, you sure dont simply want money to drop. Money that is going to be used to buy the same thing over and over due to needed decay. Gaming isnt about fun, just a money sink.
Player created content? No thanks...I prefer the game world to be crafted by the Devs. It is what they are being paid for. I dont wanna see some player made house thrown down whereever someone wishes.
FFA PVP? Better be on a specialized server, else you have relegated the game to a niche following.
The original EQ was as sandboxy as a themepark needs to be IMO.
As long as I have been coming to this site, you sandboxers have got it thru your heads that your gamestyle is hugely popular in the MMO world....it isnt.
I don't agree with either. MMOs focus on loot is rather silly, you should gain skills or AA like in EQ when you defeat tough bosses.
In most pen and paper RPGs don't I even bother to loot stuff, those games are all about character development ('cept possible D&D). Letting 90% of your power sit in your gear is the dumbest thing I heard. Who got the idea, Wallmart?
I've said it before, a true sandbox MMORPG would be a hybrid of what we call sandbox and themepark. For a sandbox MMO to stay true to it's goal of allowing players the freedom to play any way they choose, it needs to have plenty of developer created conent. That content can come in many forms, such as 'prestige' classes, reputations, factions and yes even scripted quests, dungeons and raids.
No, actually themepark and sandbox are mutually exclusive.
Minecraft, the ultimate sandbox. What would a quest which rewards a pre-built uber-castle in Minecraft do? Players would stop building castles and do the quest instead, then everyone would have the same pre-built castle.
Except of course, that the completion of the quest might instead bestow upon you X amount of blocks of Unobtanium. Unobtaniom has properties that make it highly desirable in making castles, but cannot be mined in the world.
Than everyone will just quest their way up instead of mine, mining will disappear.
I've said it before, a true sandbox MMORPG would be a hybrid of what we call sandbox and themepark. For a sandbox MMO to stay true to it's goal of allowing players the freedom to play any way they choose, it needs to have plenty of developer created conent. That content can come in many forms, such as 'prestige' classes, reputations, factions and yes even scripted quests, dungeons and raids.
No, actually themepark and sandbox are mutually exclusive.
Minecraft, the ultimate sandbox. What would a quest which rewards a pre-built uber-castle in Minecraft do? Players would stop building castles and do the quest instead, then everyone would have the same pre-built castle.
Except of course, that the completion of the quest might instead bestow upon you X amount of blocks of Unobtanium. Unobtaniom has properties that make it highly desirable in making castles, but cannot be mined in the world.
Than everyone will just quest their way up instead of mine, mining will disappear.
Castles are made of Unobtainium, Copper and Iron.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I first made a long post but i'll try to make it short instead.
I think there is a problem in the way mmo freaks, or fan boys or whatever you want to call those that look at mmo as if they were the only thing that exist in the world, look without looking past mmo.
If you look at computer gaming in general there is no such split as sandbox and themepark sub genre.
For all computer games, you have roughly 3 attitudes. Those attitude take place before the design plan, that's why i call them like this.
- You have computer games that are mean to be just that, fun computer games, and here naturally computer refer to the dominance of player vs environment aspect of those games. Like arcade games for example. This is where themepark take it source.
- Now you have sandbox games, all kind of games that are obviously more like simulations of some strange developer ideas. You have a bunch of those games in history. Richard Garriot first made single player sandbox games before sandbox mmo for example. They are plenty of sandbox console games too.
- Now you have plenty of pvp games, like fps or rts right. When Jake Song made lineage he obviously had pvp at forefront with his siege features.
So yes you have those 3 mmo which were developed in parallel and are at the founding of mmos, Uo EQ and Lineage, they really couldn't influence much each other right, maybe a bit but not much. And naturally those attitude or gaming aspect show up in mmos too. Its not the way around.
So stop being so close minded and have only mmo at sight. This might help you understand those a lot better, and you might get the answer if you look at the bigger picture. As the fact that many developer made the mistake as creating pvp sandboxes, sandbox and pvp games aren't the same. Sandbox have pvp as a tool, not as a forefront aspect. This is why you have real and bad sandbox for most people. This is why mixing those is somewhat a bad idea too. You can have a bit of pvp in all those games, but they will just look at it differently because those games have other priorities.
I find it strange that no one has seen it fit to mention GW2 which is actually introducing several hybrid sandbox elements into themepark formula, namely Dynamic events. They are player-driven, yet dev-created content - exactly what OP is talking about. In addition there is the WvW which, being a persistent open world PvP area with keeps and such to be claimed and upgraded by guilds also has this player-driven, dev-created philosophy behind it.
Imo, GW2 is making right steps in the direction of reconciling sandboxes and themeparks. Basically that was my first thought when I heard about DE's and absolutely the main reason i got interested in the game.
I find it strange that no one has seen it fit to mention GW2 which is actually introducing several hybrid sandbox elements into themepark formula, namely Dynamic events. They are player-driven, yet dev-created content - exactly what OP is talking about. In addition there is the WvW which, being a persistent open world PvP area with keeps and such to be claimed and upgraded by guilds also has this player-driven, dev-created philosophy behind it. Imo, GW2 is making right steps in the direction of reconciling sandboxes and themeparks. Basically that was my first thought when I heard about DE's and absolutely the main reason i got interested in the game.
I find it strange that no one has seen it fit to mention GW2 which is actually introducing several hybrid sandbox elements into themepark formula, namely Dynamic events. They are player-driven, yet dev-created content - exactly what OP is talking about. In addition there is the WvW which, being a persistent open world PvP area with keeps and such to be claimed and upgraded by guilds also has this player-driven, dev-created philosophy behind it.
Imo, GW2 is making right steps in the direction of reconciling sandboxes and themeparks. Basically that was my first thought when I heard about DE's and absolutely the main reason i got interested in the game.
Just lol, GW2 is not a sandbox
Of course it's not. But your quick categorization is exactly the problem we're talking about in this thread. "is it a sandbox" "is it a themepark". /yawn
What we ARE talking about is the hypothetical hybrid sandbox/themepark model and what various mmo features would look like in such a game. Imo GW2's DEs are a brilliant adaptation of themepark questing (developer-created content) and themepark philosophy (player-driven content) because they are both developer-created and yet player-driven and impacting the experience of all other players in the game. Again, i think it's a brilliant concept and I really want to see it in action.
Now let's roll this DE concept around a bit... Can you see DE's in a themepark mmo such as Darkfall? I surely can if done in proper way... For example, you and your mates are building a guild town and if number of houses in the area exceed certain number an orc invasion event is triggered. See what I'm doing here? DE's can fit into both sandbox AND themepark game models.
The second possible way of combining themepark questing with sandbox are player-created quests and this is the idea that's been around a lot.. But when you think about it, there is almost no "dev-created" part in this formula... Player created quests are exclusively "player driven" and therefore sandbox. I'd venture to say that player-created quests are a really an advanced sandboox UI tool rather than a true hybrid gameplay concept. There's nothing bad about it. I'd love to play a game based on player-created quests but i feel that this concept is really outside of the theme of our discussion.
I think the "sandbox vs themepark" thing will gradually disappear, if games like ArcheAge can succeed in retaining a big population and more truly next-gen games start appearing.
many people are sick and tired of the standard themepark formula, as proven by the apparent wide-spread disappointment regarding SWTOR's "WoW-clone" status.
at the same time, most recent sandbox titles have flopped, giving the "hardcore, ffa pvp, player made content" style of games a very bad reputation.
if a game can combine fun and well-designed PvE, questing, and other casual content with player freedom, dynamic worlds (not in the sense of players being able to totally change everything, more in the line of advanced housing, farming, PvP conquesting etc) and the multiple playstyle options, it will probably be a success.
then people won't be so concerned about whether it's a sandbox or a themepark, they'll be happy with playing a good game.
I agree but I also know that there are many out there who would say, "Let's draw that hard line." With that being said, theres always niche and older gamers that played UO or EQ as their first MMO, so they are bound to think that their type of game is better than everyone elses. Thats not to say that there are exceptions, but in general, I believe that to be the case.
Well its true older games like Asheron's call where much better then todays mmo's.
Plus i would never play a game thats full of casual themepark players and game is half themepark half sandbox that would not work.
100% sandbox or no mmo for me.
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77 CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now)) MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB PSU:Corsair AX1200i OS:Windows 10 64bit
I've said it before, a true sandbox MMORPG would be a hybrid of what we call sandbox and themepark. For a sandbox MMO to stay true to it's goal of allowing players the freedom to play any way they choose, it needs to have plenty of developer created conent. That content can come in many forms, such as 'prestige' classes, reputations, factions and yes even scripted quests, dungeons and raids.
No, actually themepark and sandbox are mutually exclusive.
Minecraft, the ultimate sandbox. What would a quest which rewards a pre-built uber-castle in Minecraft do? Players would stop building castles and do the quest instead, then everyone would have the same pre-built castle.
Except of course, that the completion of the quest might instead bestow upon you X amount of blocks of Unobtanium. Unobtaniom has properties that make it highly desirable in making castles, but cannot be mined in the world.
Than everyone will just quest their way up instead of mine, mining will disappear.
Castles are made of Unobtainium, Copper and Iron.
Introduce questing into Minecraft and it will destroy it's creativity.
I find it strange that no one has seen it fit to mention GW2 which is actually introducing several hybrid sandbox elements into themepark formula, namely Dynamic events. They are player-driven, yet dev-created content - exactly what OP is talking about.
That's like saying completing a quest in WOW is "player driven", it's not.
I really don't think that a hybrid would work. The play styles are just far to different. How do you mix instant gratification with the slower sandbox style of working for reward? I said it in the last thread where this subject came up and I will stand by it. The masses that developers are looking for do not want to create..they want to experience. Sandbox is all about creation.
I don't believe that FFA PvP or harsh death penalties are necessary for a sandbox game. For some reason over the years the two have become synonymous with sandbox. There is simply no reason for it. Think of what a sandbox is and what you do in one..you create, you build, you use your imagination. If an actual sandbox was a miserable as most FFA PvP games are no kid would ever get in one.
I find it strange that no one has seen it fit to mention GW2 which is actually introducing several hybrid sandbox elements into themepark formula, namely Dynamic events. They are player-driven, yet dev-created content - exactly what OP is talking about.
That's like saying completing a quest in WOW is "player driven", it's not.
Not really.
WoW quests are static and they do not impact the shared world. GW2 quests are dynamic and do impact the shared world in a very real manner.
A staple of the "ultimate sandbox" is realistic mob ecology where, for example, orcs would breed and ultimately start attacking player-run settlements. This is not very far from what DEs are all about, especially the centaur invasion dynamic event chain which has been well described and analyzed elsewhere.
One of the defining features od sandbox is emergent behaviour from the environment. GW2 DEs exhibit a degree of emergent behavior becaue they a) happen regardless of whether players are there or not and b) they can interact with each other creating situations which aren't directly dev-created. In that sense DE's are pretty much as far as you can get from WoW questing without actually completely abandoning dev-created content altogether.
.. but I completely agree with the OP. The sandbox vs themepark paradigm has grown soo old and both models have shown severe limitations. "On rails" themepark and "barren wasteland" sandbox are both boring and flawed imo.
I'm certain that smart developers will begin incorporating concepts from the "opposite" camps in order to enrich their games. GW2's somewhat sandboxy DEs in a themepark are one example, while sandbox Archeage will incorporate quests (or maybe something more advanced, we don't know yet) and other themepark elements.
Imo in 5-10 years the succesful mmo will seamlessly blend themepark and sandbox elements into a coherent whole and I believe this is already starting to happen. In fact I'm shocked this process is not even more advanced - it must be because WoW's wild success basically retarded conceptual mmo deveopment for at least 7-10 years.
EVE probably has the best mix of sandbox and themepark elements in the current MMO market:
In EVE, 95% of game items are created by the player crafters.
Because equipment is mostly destroyed on death (some of it is looted), the player market is extremely active.
Crafting can be done by virtually anyone, so the market is very competitive and there's virtually no inflation of prices.
Yet there are quests (missions) in the game, which provide a relatively quick and easy way for players to earn cash.
There are also NPC's that drop "rare" items which are highly sought after.
There are "dungeons" and NPC invasions in the common world to fight off.
Players can build structures at pre-defined locations throughout the game world, and there are literally thousands of those locations.
EVE is also evolving. There are now human player avatars ingame, and soon you will be able to walk around in space stations and meet up with other players in social environments.
Imho, EVE is an excellent example of a successful sandbox/themepark hybrid.
Comments
No, actually themepark and sandbox are mutually exclusive.
Minecraft, the ultimate sandbox. What would a quest which rewards a pre-built uber-castle in Minecraft do? Players would stop building castles and do the quest instead, then everyone would have the same pre-built castle.
Except of course, that the completion of the quest might instead bestow upon you X amount of blocks of Unobtanium. Unobtaniom has properties that make it highly desirable in making castles, but cannot be mined in the world.
Yeah exactly, despite the avatar reference, good exampleSandbox and themepark are only mutually exclusive if you look at them from the close minded perspective of themepark=wow and sandbox=UO. These games are just specific examples of a themepark and a sandbox. They do not define the genre.
Instead, try to look at sandbox and themepark at their most basic levels. Themepark being developer content and sandbox being player driven content. When you look at them this way, you see that there are plenty of ways to combine these two.
Create an engine for players to create quests to further their goals that play out like themepark quests for other players, just one example...
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Crafter based loot system doesnt belong in a themepark. When you kill something to get that nice item, you sure dont simply want money to drop. Money that is going to be used to buy the same thing over and over due to needed decay. Gaming isnt about fun, just a money sink.
Player created content? No thanks...I prefer the game world to be crafted by the Devs. It is what they are being paid for. I dont wanna see some player made house thrown down whereever someone wishes.
FFA PVP? Better be on a specialized server, else you have relegated the game to a niche following.
The original EQ was as sandboxy as a themepark needs to be IMO.
As long as I have been coming to this site, you sandboxers have got it thru your heads that your gamestyle is hugely popular in the MMO world....it isnt.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Minecraft has sold more games than War, Lotro and AoC together and more players than WoW.
Themeparks are as unpopular as they can be^^
The fault of most mmos is either to be niche and not tell so or to be generalistic but attract only niche players bcs of tight minded focus on parts of the gameplay.
A really good mmo would offer each type of gameplay a niche to exist.
But you have to plan it from the very beginning of a mmo.
Why not make a mmo modular?
Modules contain gameplay targetted at a specific group of players but overall the mmo offers modules for any type of gameplay.
The mmo world becomes a social hub where players can interact, try other gameplay elements.
Especially the sandbox elements of the gameplay have much longevity compared to the themepark content.
Look at WOW, there is a reason they have to make anything b4 the next expansions worthless to force the players to go for the next round of the hamsterwheel.
Themeparks have gone so far and reached their end!
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
MWO Music Video - What does the Mech say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF6HYNqCDLI
Johnny Cash - The Man Comes Around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0x2iwK0BKM
Player created content? No thanks...I prefer the game world to be crafted by the Devs. It is what they are being paid for. I dont wanna see some player made house thrown down whereever someone wishes.
Nice jump. Let's argue against creation by bringing up a mistake a sandbox made 14 years ago. Items? No thanks. I don't want to camp the same mob for 8 hours for a 25% chance of him spawning and a 10% chance that he drops his rare item. What you mean there have been innovations since the original Everquest? Inconceivable!
https://www.therepopulation.com - Sci Fi Sandbox.
I hate to disagree, because it's a good thought.
The only problem sandbox MMORPGs have had is... There hasn't been a creative enough team in the modern era of graphics to put in the proper work such a title needs.
I mean aside from social focus games like Entropia or however it's spelled and Second Life the only other success story is EVE and well it's a game where you're basically a space boat. There's changes being made of course...
But the last sandbox game that I'm aware of to offer action in a variety of ways was Shadowbane. It's only real flaw was that it aged like a fruit fly and there were graphically stunning games like WoW with it's reactive animation and EQ2 with a lot of investment on the art style (it was far from realistic).
There's nothing wrong with the seperation. MMORPGs as a genre is showing it's maturity by admitting that there are different audiences. You can't rely on bringing in a lot of "MMORPG players" because that term is irrelevant.
Plus a lot of other genres are borrowing a lot of the MMORPG genre's functions and confusing the scene even more.
We just need a sandbox developer to really put a large scale effort to it. Hell give me 10% of the cash that's went into making TOR a gabbing WoW-clone and I could find the people willing to make the game.
But.. Who'd make that investment when there's an obvious source to imitate?
I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.
I fully agree with the OP. I never liked using those terms.
The division is completely arbitrary and also harmful. Like in many things, they usually are not just black or white but something in between. Usually it is also the best solution.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Goop OP.
I have to agree, both devs and players seems to think that MMOs must be extreme one or the other. There are a few exceptions like Vanguard but the middle s very empty and that is too bad.
But it seems like all devs either want to make a new Wow or a new UO, so it is just another good example of devs with very little imagination.
It is fine that some games are extreme one way or another but there should be a lot more games in the middle. While themeparks have a way to attract players and take care of the noobs that sandboxes misses, sandboxes endgame is a lot better than raiding, daily quests and battlegrounds.
I blame EA and Activision as usual, both those companies have too many eggs in their baskets, and neither of them believe much in trying new stuff. There was a time when both those companies pioneered games that the world never seen before, but that stopped at the same time Commodore went out of busniess.
its easier for a community to give things a name..... i prefer sandbox features and theme park features.... there is nothing like true Sandbox or true Themepark games.... everything is currently somehow a mix of features from both camps...
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
I don't agree with either. MMOs focus on loot is rather silly, you should gain skills or AA like in EQ when you defeat tough bosses.
In most pen and paper RPGs don't I even bother to loot stuff, those games are all about character development ('cept possible D&D). Letting 90% of your power sit in your gear is the dumbest thing I heard. Who got the idea, Wallmart?
Than everyone will just quest their way up instead of mine, mining will disappear.
Castles are made of Unobtainium, Copper and Iron.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I first made a long post but i'll try to make it short instead.
I think there is a problem in the way mmo freaks, or fan boys or whatever you want to call those that look at mmo as if they were the only thing that exist in the world, look without looking past mmo.
If you look at computer gaming in general there is no such split as sandbox and themepark sub genre.
For all computer games, you have roughly 3 attitudes. Those attitude take place before the design plan, that's why i call them like this.
- You have computer games that are mean to be just that, fun computer games, and here naturally computer refer to the dominance of player vs environment aspect of those games. Like arcade games for example. This is where themepark take it source.
- Now you have sandbox games, all kind of games that are obviously more like simulations of some strange developer ideas. You have a bunch of those games in history. Richard Garriot first made single player sandbox games before sandbox mmo for example. They are plenty of sandbox console games too.
- Now you have plenty of pvp games, like fps or rts right. When Jake Song made lineage he obviously had pvp at forefront with his siege features.
So yes you have those 3 mmo which were developed in parallel and are at the founding of mmos, Uo EQ and Lineage, they really couldn't influence much each other right, maybe a bit but not much. And naturally those attitude or gaming aspect show up in mmos too. Its not the way around.
So stop being so close minded and have only mmo at sight. This might help you understand those a lot better, and you might get the answer if you look at the bigger picture. As the fact that many developer made the mistake as creating pvp sandboxes, sandbox and pvp games aren't the same. Sandbox have pvp as a tool, not as a forefront aspect. This is why you have real and bad sandbox for most people. This is why mixing those is somewhat a bad idea too. You can have a bit of pvp in all those games, but they will just look at it differently because those games have other priorities.
I find it strange that no one has seen it fit to mention GW2 which is actually introducing several hybrid sandbox elements into themepark formula, namely Dynamic events. They are player-driven, yet dev-created content - exactly what OP is talking about. In addition there is the WvW which, being a persistent open world PvP area with keeps and such to be claimed and upgraded by guilds also has this player-driven, dev-created philosophy behind it.
Imo, GW2 is making right steps in the direction of reconciling sandboxes and themeparks. Basically that was my first thought when I heard about DE's and absolutely the main reason i got interested in the game.
Just lol, GW2 is not a sandboxOf course it's not. But your quick categorization is exactly the problem we're talking about in this thread. "is it a sandbox" "is it a themepark". /yawn
What we ARE talking about is the hypothetical hybrid sandbox/themepark model and what various mmo features would look like in such a game. Imo GW2's DEs are a brilliant adaptation of themepark questing (developer-created content) and themepark philosophy (player-driven content) because they are both developer-created and yet player-driven and impacting the experience of all other players in the game. Again, i think it's a brilliant concept and I really want to see it in action.
Now let's roll this DE concept around a bit... Can you see DE's in a themepark mmo such as Darkfall? I surely can if done in proper way... For example, you and your mates are building a guild town and if number of houses in the area exceed certain number an orc invasion event is triggered. See what I'm doing here? DE's can fit into both sandbox AND themepark game models.
The second possible way of combining themepark questing with sandbox are player-created quests and this is the idea that's been around a lot.. But when you think about it, there is almost no "dev-created" part in this formula... Player created quests are exclusively "player driven" and therefore sandbox. I'd venture to say that player-created quests are a really an advanced sandboox UI tool rather than a true hybrid gameplay concept. There's nothing bad about it. I'd love to play a game based on player-created quests but i feel that this concept is really outside of the theme of our discussion.
I think the "sandbox vs themepark" thing will gradually disappear, if games like ArcheAge can succeed in retaining a big population and more truly next-gen games start appearing.
many people are sick and tired of the standard themepark formula, as proven by the apparent wide-spread disappointment regarding SWTOR's "WoW-clone" status.
at the same time, most recent sandbox titles have flopped, giving the "hardcore, ffa pvp, player made content" style of games a very bad reputation.
if a game can combine fun and well-designed PvE, questing, and other casual content with player freedom, dynamic worlds (not in the sense of players being able to totally change everything, more in the line of advanced housing, farming, PvP conquesting etc) and the multiple playstyle options, it will probably be a success.
then people won't be so concerned about whether it's a sandbox or a themepark, they'll be happy with playing a good game.
Well its true older games like Asheron's call where much better then todays mmo's.
Plus i would never play a game thats full of casual themepark players and game is half themepark half sandbox that would not work.
100% sandbox or no mmo for me.
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
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GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
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Isn't this what Archeage is aiming to do?
Introduce questing into Minecraft and it will destroy it's creativity.
That's like saying completing a quest in WOW is "player driven", it's not.
I really don't think that a hybrid would work. The play styles are just far to different. How do you mix instant gratification with the slower sandbox style of working for reward? I said it in the last thread where this subject came up and I will stand by it. The masses that developers are looking for do not want to create..they want to experience. Sandbox is all about creation.
I don't believe that FFA PvP or harsh death penalties are necessary for a sandbox game. For some reason over the years the two have become synonymous with sandbox. There is simply no reason for it. Think of what a sandbox is and what you do in one..you create, you build, you use your imagination. If an actual sandbox was a miserable as most FFA PvP games are no kid would ever get in one.
Not really.
WoW quests are static and they do not impact the shared world. GW2 quests are dynamic and do impact the shared world in a very real manner.
A staple of the "ultimate sandbox" is realistic mob ecology where, for example, orcs would breed and ultimately start attacking player-run settlements. This is not very far from what DEs are all about, especially the centaur invasion dynamic event chain which has been well described and analyzed elsewhere.
One of the defining features od sandbox is emergent behaviour from the environment. GW2 DEs exhibit a degree of emergent behavior becaue they a) happen regardless of whether players are there or not and b) they can interact with each other creating situations which aren't directly dev-created. In that sense DE's are pretty much as far as you can get from WoW questing without actually completely abandoning dev-created content altogether.
.. but I completely agree with the OP. The sandbox vs themepark paradigm has grown soo old and both models have shown severe limitations. "On rails" themepark and "barren wasteland" sandbox are both boring and flawed imo.
I'm certain that smart developers will begin incorporating concepts from the "opposite" camps in order to enrich their games. GW2's somewhat sandboxy DEs in a themepark are one example, while sandbox Archeage will incorporate quests (or maybe something more advanced, we don't know yet) and other themepark elements.
Imo in 5-10 years the succesful mmo will seamlessly blend themepark and sandbox elements into a coherent whole and I believe this is already starting to happen. In fact I'm shocked this process is not even more advanced - it must be because WoW's wild success basically retarded conceptual mmo deveopment for at least 7-10 years.
EVE probably has the best mix of sandbox and themepark elements in the current MMO market:
In EVE, 95% of game items are created by the player crafters.
Because equipment is mostly destroyed on death (some of it is looted), the player market is extremely active.
Crafting can be done by virtually anyone, so the market is very competitive and there's virtually no inflation of prices.
Yet there are quests (missions) in the game, which provide a relatively quick and easy way for players to earn cash.
There are also NPC's that drop "rare" items which are highly sought after.
There are "dungeons" and NPC invasions in the common world to fight off.
Players can build structures at pre-defined locations throughout the game world, and there are literally thousands of those locations.
EVE is also evolving. There are now human player avatars ingame, and soon you will be able to walk around in space stations and meet up with other players in social environments.
Imho, EVE is an excellent example of a successful sandbox/themepark hybrid.