well if you are all looking for a change start supporting archeage so that it can get a publisher in the west, if you don't buy the sandboxs games they will never get popular..its like complaining about not winning the lotto but you never bought a ticket..support indy development and stop ripping their games to shreds when some features of the game are not as good or polished as a game that has had millions spent on it.
Yep cant wait for ArcheAge really wish it could get to the us sooner .
The first generation of mmo developers were gamers, dungeon masters and the like that looked around and saw the tools to finally turn the paper and pencil games they had been playing in thier heads into real visual worlds that their players could have freedom to explore unhindered by paper and pencil restrictions.
These original game designers rolled the dice and brought all their creativity into their game concept and design, they knew what they wanted but not how to get there. There were no text to follow or someelse's code to cut and paste, they were self taught and made their games with trial and error, sometimes arriving at unintended results better than what they imagined.
This first generation of game designers were artist and poets, young people who grew up in an education system that empowered them to dream, to create, an education with system with well funded arts, and drama, creative writing, and philosophy departments. These are young people that grew up encouraged being told anything they dreamed they could do, being told there were no limits or constraints.
Even more importantly however, these were young people that taught RESPECT, HONOR, and ETHICS above all else. There were not game designers who would steal someone elses concept or design, these are people who would create their own, even if it cost more money, even if it took more time.
Jump forward 10, 15, 20 years, the original designers are gone, retired, dead, moved on from an industry that now sickens them. Enter the new generation of designers, There are no artists, there are no poets, there are coding monkeys taught to get to every result exactly the same way, taught speed over quality, stealing other people's code just the way the business works. The journey is not important, just get there as quickly as possible. They are a generation of cut and paste hacks that learned to code exactly the same way from tthe exact same texts. Oh and its intentional, if they all code exactly the same way it makes using each others code that much easier. SPEED SPEED SPEED.
Ask a modern game designer about RESPECT, or HONOR and they laugh at you, ask them about ETHICS and they stare at you blankly and eventually ask what is ETHICS, or my favorite of all time. " Ethics? What does race have to do with game design? "
How can we have a generation of lemmings coding exactly the same, stealing each others code back and forth, and ever expect anything other than what we are getting.
Albert Einstein defined Insanity,
" Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. "
This first generation of game designers were artist and poets, young people who grew up in an education system that empowered them to dream, to create, an education with system with well funded arts, and drama, creative writing, and philosophy departments. These are young people that grew up encouraged being told anything they dreamed they could do, being told there were no limits or constraints.
Even more importantly however, these were young people that taught RESPECT, HONOR, and ETHICS above all else. There were not game designers who would steal someone elses concept or design, these are people who would create their own, even if it cost more money, even if it took more time.
I'm sorry, I believe you mean to describe 1975, not 1935. Yah remember Disco and Cocaine?
Lived through it, coded through it; you couldn't possibly be more wrong about several of those generalizations.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
First of all, I am dealing with it. I don't give my money to the companies that changed the genre from MMORPG to MOBA. However, I assume what you mean by "deal with it" is more like "shut up and stop talking because I don't want to hear what you have to say." ... too bad. I enjoy discussing issues I'm interested in, whether you agree with me or not. So, Deal with it.
Talk about whatever you want, but the reality is, MMOs are as healthy today as they've ever been, they are far more successful today than they ever were in the "good old days". You might not like the changes and you're more than welcome to hate them, but the industry certainly isn't dying by any means. I don't give money to any games I don't want to play, or spend a second of my time playing any games I don't want to play, which is why I'm neither spending a penny, nor a second, on any game currently on the market. That said though, these threads come up almost daily, people whining about the "good old days" that, in today's world, would be viewed as a miserable failure.
Second, the majority of players that you say had no interest in the mechanics that DEFINED mmorpgs weren't even MMORPG players themselves until the genre started changing/changed. So, I see that as an invalid point to try and insert.
Sorry, every genre is in a constant state of evolution. Old MMO players no more defined MMOs than old arcade gamers defined video games. Everything that was in the first generation of MMOs came from older generations of online and offline gaming. Game genres evolve. Things that fail are removed and, like it or not, a lot of the things that the older generation, of which I am a part, liked simply no longer fit into the mainstream genre. Such is life. We vote with our wallets and my wallet doesn't fund these games. Even if there are elements of the games that we popularized, that's no guarantee that the games won't change, in fact we know that they do. Your enjoyment, as I said, is not necessary to the survival of the genre.
One cannot reasonably argue that certain companies changed the genre to please a following that did not exist yet. Everyone in the community, new or veteran alike, know that the only incentive developers have at this point is to gain more subscriptions/RMT purchases/player numbers. If you think it is ok that those are the only incentives, perhaps you need to question whether or not you are an MMORPG player or just another videogame player. Just because someone enjoys WoW does not mean they have to agree with the state of things outside of WoW. If you simply are trying to say "I love WoW and all things like it, and I don't like what was required of me to play true MMORPGs" then just say so, but don't try and invalidate someone else's view on the matter just because they were satisfied with what once was.
It is the job of all companies out there to make a profit for their shareholders. That means attracting the largest available paying audience. That's the reality of business! Pretending otherwise is horribly ignorant. Nobody owes you the game you want to play, they owe their shareholders a profit. You either play the games they put out or you take your time and money elsewhere. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people who seem to think they get to demand games that they want, regardless of whether or not these games are financially viable. The entitlement fantasy among some gamers is absurd. Nobody owes you jack shit. If you want a game made to your standards, prove that there are millions of people who share your views and will pay for a game like that. If you can't do it, then what do you expect? Personally, I can't stand WoW. I played it for less than a year, hated every second of it and only played because I had friends who wanted me to play. I don't sit around here and demand that developers give me the game I want. I understand why they make games, I understand the conditions under which they operate and I understand that the games that I want will likely never be made because there simply isn't enough of a paying audience to support them. I accept reality as it is, nobody says I have to like it but I accept it.
"deal with it" "adapt" "stop QQing" "stop whining" "complainers!" "you're wrong because there's more of us that agree with me" -- statements such as these are so disrespectful and childish and, quite frankly, reflect exactly what us vets talk about. One of the results of these "fantastic" changes that the genre has gone through is it now attracts a playerbase made of people who don't even want to get along with eachother or play together or be friendly.
Welcome to the modern world. Have you looked outside lately? Seriously, that's how the world works these days. Like you, I don't particularly like it, but honestly, I know I have no control over it either. Besides, the "good old days" weren't nearly as rosy as the so-called "vets" like to portray it.
TBH, You can keep this crappy genre, and the crap community that now resides, and the craptastic attitude towards us "nerds" who started it all for you. I am just fine staying out of your vent channels and general chat channels. My money pays for enjoyment, not belittlement.
Good, then go find something that makes you happy. Put your money where your mouth is. Stop acting like anyone has to make a game you like. Do something else. Turn the computer off. Get a life. Do something besides sitting around on a forum whining about how horrible the MMO genre is. Don't like it? Don't play it.
The first generation of mmo developers were gamers, dungeon masters and the like that looked around and saw the tools to finally turn the paper and pencil games they had been playing in thier heads into real visual worlds that their players could have freedom to explore unhindered by paper and pencil restrictions.
These original game designers rolled the dice and brought all their creativity into their game concept and design, they knew what they wanted but not how to get there. There were no text to follow or someelse's code to cut and paste, they were self taught and made their games with trial and error, sometimes arriving at unintended results better than what they imagined.
This first generation of game designers were artist and poets, young people who grew up in an education system that empowered them to dream, to create, an education with system with well funded arts, and drama, creative writing, and philosophy departments. These are young people that grew up encouraged being told anything they dreamed they could do, being told there were no limits or constraints.
Even more importantly however, these were young people that taught RESPECT, HONOR, and ETHICS above all else. There were not game designers who would steal someone elses concept or design, these are people who would create their own, even if it cost more money, even if it took more time.
Jump forward 10, 15, 20 years, the original designers are gone, retired, dead, moved on from an industry that now sickens them. Enter the new generation of designers, There are no artists, there are no poets, there are coding monkeys taught to get to every result exactly the same way, taught speed over quality, stealing other people's code just the way the business works. The journey is not important, just get there as quickly as possible. They are a generation of cut and paste hacks that learned to code exactly the same way from tthe exact same texts. Oh and its intentional, if they all code exactly the same way it makes using each others code that much easier. SPEED SPEED SPEED.
Ask a modern game designer about RESPECT, or HONOR and they laugh at you, ask them about ETHICS and they stare at you blankly and eventually ask what is ETHICS, or my favorite of all time. " Ethics? What does race have to do with game design? "
How can we have a generation of lemmings coding exactly the same, stealing each others code back and forth, and ever expect anything other than what we are getting.
Albert Einstein defined Insanity,
" Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. "
Do we really ever expect different results?
Great post and so true this sums up about 90% of the Mmorpg developers these days , the developers and companies pushing the mmorpg genre forward today and indeed insain and need to be replaced by a new generation of development companies who care about their game , their world and most importantly their players , not $$$$ sign's
Yes the first generation were artists and visionaries, the first ones always are.
However there are still a great many artists and visionaries, I believe there are more artists and visionaries in modern development teams than in the old ones, simply because there are so many more development teams. You will get more good ones and bad ones.
To say that developers today don't have ethics, honor and respect is IMO a load of crap. This is the example where you need to hold up your, "Get off my lawn sign, you young whippersnappers."
The einstein quote is always amusing, and always false. While the person may do the same thing, the environment often changes dramatically.
Venge
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
The first generation of mmo developers were gamers, dungeon masters and the like that looked around and saw the tools to finally turn the paper and pencil games they had been playing in thier heads into real visual worlds that their players could have freedom to explore unhindered by paper and pencil restrictions.
These original game designers rolled the dice and brought all their creativity into their game concept and design, they knew what they wanted but not how to get there. There were no text to follow or someelse's code to cut and paste, they were self taught and made their games with trial and error, sometimes arriving at unintended results better than what they imagined.
This first generation of game designers were artist and poets, young people who grew up in an education system that empowered them to dream, to create, an education with system with well funded arts, and drama, creative writing, and philosophy departments. These are young people that grew up encouraged being told anything they dreamed they could do, being told there were no limits or constraints.
Even more importantly however, these were young people that taught RESPECT, HONOR, and ETHICS above all else. There were not game designers who would steal someone elses concept or design, these are people who would create their own, even if it cost more money, even if it took more time.
Jump forward 10, 15, 20 years, the original designers are gone, retired, dead, moved on from an industry that now sickens them. Enter the new generation of designers, There are no artists, there are no poets, there are coding monkeys taught to get to every result exactly the same way, taught speed over quality, stealing other people's code just the way the business works. The journey is not important, just get there as quickly as possible. They are a generation of cut and paste hacks that learned to code exactly the same way from tthe exact same texts. Oh and its intentional, if they all code exactly the same way it makes using each others code that much easier. SPEED SPEED SPEED.
Ask a modern game designer about RESPECT, or HONOR and they laugh at you, ask them about ETHICS and they stare at you blankly and eventually ask what is ETHICS, or my favorite of all time. " Ethics? What does race have to do with game design? "
How can we have a generation of lemmings coding exactly the same, stealing each others code back and forth, and ever expect anything other than what we are getting.
Albert Einstein defined Insanity,
" Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. "
Do we really ever expect different results?
I don't know what rose color glasses you are looking through but games have always been about making money. I also don't get what you mean about speed, speed, speed. Seems like (with few exceptions), games take just as long or longer to develop than games of old. Sad fact is MMORPG.com is full of disgruntled vets who have this nostalgic notion for old games. It just may be time to give up the hobby and move on...
A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...
The first generation of mmo developers were gamers, dungeon masters and the like that looked around and saw the tools to finally turn the paper and pencil games they had been playing in thier heads into real visual worlds that their players could have freedom to explore unhindered by paper and pencil restrictions.
These original game designers rolled the dice and brought all their creativity into their game concept and design, they knew what they wanted but not how to get there. There were no text to follow or someelse's code to cut and paste, they were self taught and made their games with trial and error, sometimes arriving at unintended results better than what they imagined.
This first generation of game designers were artist and poets, young people who grew up in an education system that empowered them to dream, to create, an education with system with well funded arts, and drama, creative writing, and philosophy departments. These are young people that grew up encouraged being told anything they dreamed they could do, being told there were no limits or constraints.
Even more importantly however, these were young people that taught RESPECT, HONOR, and ETHICS above all else. There were not game designers who would steal someone elses concept or design, these are people who would create their own, even if it cost more money, even if it took more time.
Jump forward 10, 15, 20 years, the original designers are gone, retired, dead, moved on from an industry that now sickens them. Enter the new generation of designers, There are no artists, there are no poets, there are coding monkeys taught to get to every result exactly the same way, taught speed over quality, stealing other people's code just the way the business works. The journey is not important, just get there as quickly as possible. They are a generation of cut and paste hacks that learned to code exactly the same way from tthe exact same texts. Oh and its intentional, if they all code exactly the same way it makes using each others code that much easier. SPEED SPEED SPEED.
Ask a modern game designer about RESPECT, or HONOR and they laugh at you, ask them about ETHICS and they stare at you blankly and eventually ask what is ETHICS, or my favorite of all time. " Ethics? What does race have to do with game design? "
How can we have a generation of lemmings coding exactly the same, stealing each others code back and forth, and ever expect anything other than what we are getting.
Albert Einstein defined Insanity,
" Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. "
Do we really ever expect different results?
I don't know what rose color glasses you are looking through but games have always been about making money. I also don'[t get what you mean about speed, speed, speed. Seems like (with few exceptions), games take just as long or longer to develop than games of old. Sad fact is MMORPG.com is full of disgruntled vets who have this nostalgic notion for old games. It just may be time to give up the hobby and move on...
No he's absolutly right , back in the day people who made EQ/UO never did it for the money they did it for them self and the players, they did it to create a world where people could live in and interact with others, to bring their pen and paper dreams to life. They even stated back then that they never thought it would be a money maker, they would be happy if they even made enough to simply keep the game going .
I don't know what rose color glasses you are looking through but games have always been about making money. I also don'[t get what you mean about speed, speed, speed. Seems like (with few exceptions), games take just as long or longer to develop than games of old. Sad fact is MMORPG.com is full of disgruntled vets who have this nostalgic notion for old games. It just may be time to give up the hobby and move on...
Yeah, that's really the problem. They've got it in their heads that games never change and anything that's different from the "good old days" must be bad. It would be like a bunch of Model-T fanatics getting on the Ford Motors forums and demanding that cars that you can't crank to start aren't really cars. Like it or not, the world moves on and you either move on with it or you get off the roller coaster and go ride something else. Sitting in the front seat of the roller coaster and demanding it become a ferris wheel is just absurd.
No he's absolutly right , back in the day people who made EQ/UO never did it for the money they did it for them self and the players, they did it to create a world where people could live in and interact with others, to bring their pen and paper dreams to life. They even stated back then that they never thought it would be a money maker, they would be happy if they even made enough to simply keep the game going .
So you're saying they never got paid for any of it, they paid for the servers out of their own pockets and never charged anyone anything because... it was made for the players, right? Let me know when you find one of those programmers who turned down a paycheck, okay?
No he's absolutly right , back in the day people who made EQ/UO never did it for the money they did it for them self and the players, they did it to create a world where people could live in and interact with others, to bring their pen and paper dreams to life. They even stated back then that they never thought it would be a money maker, they would be happy if they even made enough to simply keep the game going .
So you're saying they never got paid for any of it, they paid for the servers out of their own pockets and never charged anyone anything because... it was made for the players, right? Let me know when you find one of those programmers who turned down a paycheck, okay?
Hum usually people are able to 2 things at the same time, you know like this and that, well i mean realise a dream and get paid for it.
Hum usually people are able to 2 things at the same time, you know like this and that, well i mean realise a dream and get paid for it.
Sorry, the claim was they did it for the love of the game and not for the money. I'll keep waiting for someone to produce even a single example of someone who turned down their paycheck.
No he's absolutly right , back in the day people who made EQ/UO never did it for the money they did it for them self and the players, they did it to create a world where people could live in and interact with others, to bring their pen and paper dreams to life. They even stated back then that they never thought it would be a money maker, they would be happy if they even made enough to simply keep the game going .
So you're saying they never got paid for any of it, they paid for the servers out of their own pockets and never charged anyone anything because... it was made for the players, right? Let me know when you find one of those programmers who turned down a paycheck, okay?
Hum usually people are able to 2 things at the same time, you know like this and that, well i mean realise a dream and get paid for it.
Correct. I agree. But lets not go down fantasy land and say that money was never a factor. The great visionaries in the idustry can do both.
A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...
The first generation of mmo developers were gamers, dungeon masters and the like that looked around and saw the tools to finally turn the paper and pencil games they had been playing in thier heads into real visual worlds that their players could have freedom to explore unhindered by paper and pencil restrictions.
These original game designers rolled the dice and brought all their creativity into their game concept and design, they knew what they wanted but not how to get there. There were no text to follow or someelse's code to cut and paste, they were self taught and made their games with trial and error, sometimes arriving at unintended results better than what they imagined.
This first generation of game designers were artist and poets, young people who grew up in an education system that empowered them to dream, to create, an education with system with well funded arts, and drama, creative writing, and philosophy departments. These are young people that grew up encouraged being told anything they dreamed they could do, being told there were no limits or constraints.
Even more importantly however, these were young people that taught RESPECT, HONOR, and ETHICS above all else. There were not game designers who would steal someone elses concept or design, these are people who would create their own, even if it cost more money, even if it took more time.
Jump forward 10, 15, 20 years, the original designers are gone, retired, dead, moved on from an industry that now sickens them. Enter the new generation of designers, There are no artists, there are no poets, there are coding monkeys taught to get to every result exactly the same way, taught speed over quality, stealing other people's code just the way the business works. The journey is not important, just get there as quickly as possible. They are a generation of cut and paste hacks that learned to code exactly the same way from tthe exact same texts. Oh and its intentional, if they all code exactly the same way it makes using each others code that much easier. SPEED SPEED SPEED.
Ask a modern game designer about RESPECT, or HONOR and they laugh at you, ask them about ETHICS and they stare at you blankly and eventually ask what is ETHICS, or my favorite of all time. " Ethics? What does race have to do with game design? "
How can we have a generation of lemmings coding exactly the same, stealing each others code back and forth, and ever expect anything other than what we are getting.
Albert Einstein defined Insanity,
" Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. "
Do we really ever expect different results?
I don't know what rose color glasses you are looking through but games have always been about making money. I also don'[t get what you mean about speed, speed, speed. Seems like (with few exceptions), games take just as long or longer to develop than games of old. Sad fact is MMORPG.com is full of disgruntled vets who have this nostalgic notion for old games. It just may be time to give up the hobby and move on...
No he's absolutly right , back in the day people who made EQ/UO never did it for the money they did it for them self and the players, they did it to create a world where people could live in and interact with others, to bring their pen and paper dreams to life. They even stated back then that they never thought it would be a money maker, they would be happy if they even made enough to simply keep the game going .
So you're saying that when 989 studios - then verant, which was owned by Sony, decided to build a game, and put in thousands of hours of man hours code into it, and millions of dollars of resources they did all this believing they actually wouldn't make any money?
Sorry I'm not buying it. 989, verant and Sony all believed this was a money making venture, which was why they funded develoment.
Most businesses are not in the habit of funding projects they do not believe will pay off.
I can just imagine that conversation. We want to spend however many hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars, take all the programmers and make a game but we don't expect it will make any money...
Venge
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
So you're saying that when 989 studios - then verant, which was owned by Sony, decided to build a game, and put in thousands of hours of man hours code into it, and millions of dollars of resources they did all this believing they actually wouldn't make any money?
Sorry I'm not buying it. 989, verant and Sony all believed this was a money making venture, which was why they funded develoment.
Most businesses are not in the habit of funding projects they do not believe will pay off.
I can just imagine that conversation. We want to spend however many hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars, take all the programmers and make a game but we don't expect it will make any money...
Venge
You have to remember that lots of people who are claiming that these studios did it for the love of the game have absolutely no real world experience, they've never run a company, never owned one, they are business illiterate. If they ever had a high-end management job, they'd know how asinine their claims are, no company anywhere runs that way. The doe-eyed idealism is ridiculous. Sure, maybe they said they were doing it for the players as a public marketing scheme, maybe they really did enjoy what they were doing and were trying to make a game they, themselves, wanted to play, but in the end, they were all doing it for the paycheck. They wanted to make money so they could put food on the table and a roof over their head and their investors wanted a profit.
That's the way real business works. It's sad so many people are so ignorant of the basic facts.
I could see an individual or even a group of people making a game completely not for profit, but not a corporation.
Venge
And even then, they'll almost certainly put some money-making scheme into the product. Heck, MMORPG.com isn't charging any of us for posting here, but they're certainly making a profit with all the advertising.
No he's absolutly right , back in the day people who made EQ/UO never did it for the money they did it for them self and the players, they did it to create a world where people could live in and interact with others, to bring their pen and paper dreams to life. They even stated back then that they never thought it would be a money maker, they would be happy if they even made enough to simply keep the game going .
Bizarrely, this line of thought is believed by a great many people.
"Once upon a time, in the Great Golden Age of Gaming, hundreds of selfless game developers worked 1000's of hours to produce fantastic games which they basically donated to their loving fans the world over. All they asked in return was the appreciation of their fans and the occasional good review."
It is usually the precursor to the idea that modern development studios are only "in it for the money".
It is also frequently used as the justification for claiming that a game should actually be entirely free to play (i.e. devs that expect payment for their work are really just money-grabbing mercenaries, not "artists").
The first generation of mmo developers were gamers, dungeon masters and the like that looked around and saw the tools to finally turn the paper and pencil games they had been playing in thier heads into real visual worlds that their players could have freedom to explore unhindered by paper and pencil restrictions.
These original game designers rolled the dice and brought all their creativity into their game concept and design, they knew what they wanted but not how to get there. There were no text to follow or someelse's code to cut and paste, they were self taught and made their games with trial and error, sometimes arriving at unintended results better than what they imagined.
This first generation of game designers were artist and poets, young people who grew up in an education system that empowered them to dream, to create, an education with system with well funded arts, and drama, creative writing, and philosophy departments. These are young people that grew up encouraged being told anything they dreamed they could do, being told there were no limits or constraints.
Even more importantly however, these were young people that taught RESPECT, HONOR, and ETHICS above all else. There were not game designers who would steal someone elses concept or design, these are people who would create their own, even if it cost more money, even if it took more time.
Jump forward 10, 15, 20 years, the original designers are gone, retired, dead, moved on from an industry that now sickens them. Enter the new generation of designers, There are no artists, there are no poets, there are coding monkeys taught to get to every result exactly the same way, taught speed over quality, stealing other people's code just the way the business works. The journey is not important, just get there as quickly as possible. They are a generation of cut and paste hacks that learned to code exactly the same way from tthe exact same texts. Oh and its intentional, if they all code exactly the same way it makes using each others code that much easier. SPEED SPEED SPEED.
Ask a modern game designer about RESPECT, or HONOR and they laugh at you, ask them about ETHICS and they stare at you blankly and eventually ask what is ETHICS, or my favorite of all time. " Ethics? What does race have to do with game design? "
How can we have a generation of lemmings coding exactly the same, stealing each others code back and forth, and ever expect anything other than what we are getting.
Albert Einstein defined Insanity,
" Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. "
Do we really ever expect different results?
I don't know what rose color glasses you are looking through but games have always been about making money. I also don'[t get what you mean about speed, speed, speed. Seems like (with few exceptions), games take just as long or longer to develop than games of old. Sad fact is MMORPG.com is full of disgruntled vets who have this nostalgic notion for old games. It just may be time to give up the hobby and move on...
No he's absolutly right , back in the day people who made EQ/UO never did it for the money they did it for them self and the players, they did it to create a world where people could live in and interact with others, to bring their pen and paper dreams to life. They even stated back then that they never thought it would be a money maker, they would be happy if they even made enough to simply keep the game going .
I really hope this was a joke because it is just hilarious to even think that money was not a factor behind EQ/UO. The only difference between now and then is that MMO players formed minority of over all gamers population. As MMOS became more mainstream so did the will to make more profits.
I am in the same boat. I have actually quit playing MMORPGs all together. I have been play about the same amount of time as you and I am sick of the whole thing. That new WoW pet that can be bought with real money and traded is dumb. The Diablo 3 cash shop is going to be dumb. It's all just dumb. Games used to be way better with way less. SWTOR is a going to be a sad story, not because of the money it will make (which will be a lot), but by the fact that a company like Bioware is doing it and it's nothing but a copy and paste of WoW. WoW had some great changes to the genre, but now all we have are copy cats. Hell WoW is a copy of it's self now.....a bad one at that.
I agree with the OP as far as item shops in MMOs but SP DLC I totally fine with. I don't have to buy a large expansion but I can buy a few small adventure packs that I feel are worth it. There still is a problem where some games are asking for much more than their DLC is worth.
"I really hope this was a joke because it is just hilarious to even think that money was not a factor behind EQ/UO. The only difference between now and then is that MMO players formed minority of over all gamers population. As MMOS became more mainstream so did the will to make more profits."
The older MMORPGs were designed by people who played pen & paper games - obviously - because at the time they were the only people who knew about those kind of games. They were trying to bring their tabletop games to life.
The newer MMORPGs are designed by people trying to recreate WoW's financial success.
That's the big difference.
What WoW did was take the worldiness of something like EQ, improve the graphics and polish (while making sure it still ran on a toaster), make it more solo-friendly and dumb it down.
The copies have kept the dumbed down and solo-friendly parts but either dropped the runs-on-a-toaster part or, being another step removed from the originals, dropped the worldiness part (because they don't see the point) or both.
The older MMORPGs were designed by people who played pen & paper games - obviously - because at the time they were the only people who knew about those kind of games. They were trying to bring their tabletop games to life.
The newer MMORPGs are designed by people trying to recreate WoW's financial success.
That's the big difference.
What WoW did was take the worldiness of something like EQ, improve the graphics and polish (while making sure it still ran on a toaster), make it more solo-friendly and dumb it down.
The copies have kept the dumbed down and solo-friendly parts but either dropped the runs-on-a-toaster part or, being another step removed from the originals, dropped the worldiness part (because they don't see the point) or both.
Every time I try to explain this, I end up with an entire wall rant and I go far beyond the point. So, very good form, sir.
Comments
Yep cant wait for ArcheAge really wish it could get to the us sooner .
The first generation of mmo developers were gamers, dungeon masters and the like that looked around and saw the tools to finally turn the paper and pencil games they had been playing in thier heads into real visual worlds that their players could have freedom to explore unhindered by paper and pencil restrictions.
These original game designers rolled the dice and brought all their creativity into their game concept and design, they knew what they wanted but not how to get there. There were no text to follow or someelse's code to cut and paste, they were self taught and made their games with trial and error, sometimes arriving at unintended results better than what they imagined.
This first generation of game designers were artist and poets, young people who grew up in an education system that empowered them to dream, to create, an education with system with well funded arts, and drama, creative writing, and philosophy departments. These are young people that grew up encouraged being told anything they dreamed they could do, being told there were no limits or constraints.
Even more importantly however, these were young people that taught RESPECT, HONOR, and ETHICS above all else. There were not game designers who would steal someone elses concept or design, these are people who would create their own, even if it cost more money, even if it took more time.
Jump forward 10, 15, 20 years, the original designers are gone, retired, dead, moved on from an industry that now sickens them. Enter the new generation of designers, There are no artists, there are no poets, there are coding monkeys taught to get to every result exactly the same way, taught speed over quality, stealing other people's code just the way the business works. The journey is not important, just get there as quickly as possible. They are a generation of cut and paste hacks that learned to code exactly the same way from tthe exact same texts. Oh and its intentional, if they all code exactly the same way it makes using each others code that much easier. SPEED SPEED SPEED.
Ask a modern game designer about RESPECT, or HONOR and they laugh at you, ask them about ETHICS and they stare at you blankly and eventually ask what is ETHICS, or my favorite of all time. " Ethics? What does race have to do with game design? "
How can we have a generation of lemmings coding exactly the same, stealing each others code back and forth, and ever expect anything other than what we are getting.
Albert Einstein defined Insanity,
" Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. "
Do we really ever expect different results?
I'm sorry, I believe you mean to describe 1975, not 1935. Yah remember Disco and Cocaine?
Lived through it, coded through it; you couldn't possibly be more wrong about several of those generalizations.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Great post and so true this sums up about 90% of the Mmorpg developers these days , the developers and companies pushing the mmorpg genre forward today and indeed insain and need to be replaced by a new generation of development companies who care about their game , their world and most importantly their players , not $$$$ sign's
Sorrow I only half agree with you.
Yes the first generation were artists and visionaries, the first ones always are.
However there are still a great many artists and visionaries, I believe there are more artists and visionaries in modern development teams than in the old ones, simply because there are so many more development teams. You will get more good ones and bad ones.
To say that developers today don't have ethics, honor and respect is IMO a load of crap. This is the example where you need to hold up your, "Get off my lawn sign, you young whippersnappers."
The einstein quote is always amusing, and always false. While the person may do the same thing, the environment often changes dramatically.
Venge
I don't know what rose color glasses you are looking through but games have always been about making money. I also don't get what you mean about speed, speed, speed. Seems like (with few exceptions), games take just as long or longer to develop than games of old. Sad fact is MMORPG.com is full of disgruntled vets who have this nostalgic notion for old games. It just may be time to give up the hobby and move on...
A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...
No he's absolutly right , back in the day people who made EQ/UO never did it for the money they did it for them self and the players, they did it to create a world where people could live in and interact with others, to bring their pen and paper dreams to life. They even stated back then that they never thought it would be a money maker, they would be happy if they even made enough to simply keep the game going .
Yeah, that's really the problem. They've got it in their heads that games never change and anything that's different from the "good old days" must be bad. It would be like a bunch of Model-T fanatics getting on the Ford Motors forums and demanding that cars that you can't crank to start aren't really cars. Like it or not, the world moves on and you either move on with it or you get off the roller coaster and go ride something else. Sitting in the front seat of the roller coaster and demanding it become a ferris wheel is just absurd.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
So you're saying they never got paid for any of it, they paid for the servers out of their own pockets and never charged anyone anything because... it was made for the players, right? Let me know when you find one of those programmers who turned down a paycheck, okay?
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Hum usually people are able to 2 things at the same time, you know like this and that, well i mean realise a dream and get paid for it.
Sorry, the claim was they did it for the love of the game and not for the money. I'll keep waiting for someone to produce even a single example of someone who turned down their paycheck.
I suspect it will be a long wait.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Correct. I agree. But lets not go down fantasy land and say that money was never a factor. The great visionaries in the idustry can do both.
A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...
So you're saying that when 989 studios - then verant, which was owned by Sony, decided to build a game, and put in thousands of hours of man hours code into it, and millions of dollars of resources they did all this believing they actually wouldn't make any money?
Sorry I'm not buying it. 989, verant and Sony all believed this was a money making venture, which was why they funded develoment.
Most businesses are not in the habit of funding projects they do not believe will pay off.
I can just imagine that conversation. We want to spend however many hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars, take all the programmers and make a game but we don't expect it will make any money...
Venge
You have to remember that lots of people who are claiming that these studios did it for the love of the game have absolutely no real world experience, they've never run a company, never owned one, they are business illiterate. If they ever had a high-end management job, they'd know how asinine their claims are, no company anywhere runs that way. The doe-eyed idealism is ridiculous. Sure, maybe they said they were doing it for the players as a public marketing scheme, maybe they really did enjoy what they were doing and were trying to make a game they, themselves, wanted to play, but in the end, they were all doing it for the paycheck. They wanted to make money so they could put food on the table and a roof over their head and their investors wanted a profit.
That's the way real business works. It's sad so many people are so ignorant of the basic facts.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
I could see an individual or even a group of people making a game completely not for profit, but not a corporation.
Venge
And even then, they'll almost certainly put some money-making scheme into the product. Heck, MMORPG.com isn't charging any of us for posting here, but they're certainly making a profit with all the advertising.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
lol most people realized this 10 years ago hehe
Bizarrely, this line of thought is believed by a great many people.
"Once upon a time, in the Great Golden Age of Gaming, hundreds of selfless game developers worked 1000's of hours to produce fantastic games which they basically donated to their loving fans the world over. All they asked in return was the appreciation of their fans and the occasional good review."
It is usually the precursor to the idea that modern development studios are only "in it for the money".
It is also frequently used as the justification for claiming that a game should actually be entirely free to play (i.e. devs that expect payment for their work are really just money-grabbing mercenaries, not "artists").
I really hope this was a joke because it is just hilarious to even think that money was not a factor behind EQ/UO. The only difference between now and then is that MMO players formed minority of over all gamers population. As MMOS became more mainstream so did the will to make more profits.
To the OP:
I am in the same boat. I have actually quit playing MMORPGs all together. I have been play about the same amount of time as you and I am sick of the whole thing. That new WoW pet that can be bought with real money and traded is dumb. The Diablo 3 cash shop is going to be dumb. It's all just dumb. Games used to be way better with way less. SWTOR is a going to be a sad story, not because of the money it will make (which will be a lot), but by the fact that a company like Bioware is doing it and it's nothing but a copy and paste of WoW. WoW had some great changes to the genre, but now all we have are copy cats. Hell WoW is a copy of it's self now.....a bad one at that.
We should all start making our own games,.
Check out unity blender and gimp they are all free.
in a couple of hours i was able to make my own exsploring game, it was the bad landscape i created myself but was fun.
I can do what i want when i want .
I 'm not as educated as most are, so if i can do it then anyone can.
I agree with the OP as far as item shops in MMOs but SP DLC I totally fine with. I don't have to buy a large expansion but I can buy a few small adventure packs that I feel are worth it. There still is a problem where some games are asking for much more than their DLC is worth.
"I really hope this was a joke because it is just hilarious to even think that money was not a factor behind EQ/UO. The only difference between now and then is that MMO players formed minority of over all gamers population. As MMOS became more mainstream so did the will to make more profits."
The older MMORPGs were designed by people who played pen & paper games - obviously - because at the time they were the only people who knew about those kind of games. They were trying to bring their tabletop games to life.
The newer MMORPGs are designed by people trying to recreate WoW's financial success.
That's the big difference.
What WoW did was take the worldiness of something like EQ, improve the graphics and polish (while making sure it still ran on a toaster), make it more solo-friendly and dumb it down.
The copies have kept the dumbed down and solo-friendly parts but either dropped the runs-on-a-toaster part or, being another step removed from the originals, dropped the worldiness part (because they don't see the point) or both.
Every time I try to explain this, I end up with an entire wall rant and I go far beyond the point. So, very good form, sir.
Nicely done. ^^