A big pet peeve of mine is people rationalizing bad behvior in completely specious ways, so this is just a general reply to the legions who continue to do so:
"well they over charge!!!!"
"well I wouldnt have bought it anyway!"
OK... Ferrari "over charges". They *really* do. And I am 99% sure that anyone posting on this list (esp reading these posts) is *never* buying one yet *surely* wants one.
So there you go. You want it. It IS over priced (and it is), and you wont buy one anyway because you cant afford it.
So go steal one.
Oh? Whats that? Oh right thats different. Now please do come up with 200 reasons why its "different" that make you look like an idiot. It's different because a Ferrari is a "tangible item"? No. In a service economy the VAST majority of us make whatever money we make from INTANGIBLES... so think long and hard before you make THAT rule stick because you want to steal games. Next someone will be stealing whatever it is that pays YOUR bills (or to make it fit this list better, pays mom and dads bills since they probably pay yours)
No... the real reason It's "different" is because you don't have the stones to try it because you know if you get caught you'll either get shot by the owner or land in "pound-me-in-the-rear" prison sharing a cell with Tyrone.
So lets cut the BS about how piracy is ok with 1000 word diatribes on why. Put the same effort and energy into something productive and just *maybe* you'll have 2 cents to rub together so buying a $50 game won't be a life impacting decision.
We have really devolved into a badly entitled, ADD culture. The folks condoning bad behavior on discussions like these sound like friggin junkies. They just GOTTA get their "fix". Need it NOW. Its the OTHER GUYS fault that they need it and want it and cant afford it.
If the publishers are so bad/greedy/lazy/lousy, then FIND A NEW DAMN HOBBY. maybe take up programming and WRITE YOUR OWN GAME and then give it away. Oh right, you'd never give YOUR work away.
How about someone takes the entire contents of this article and puts it on a site with their own ad banners to make some nice click-through from it? The author should be ok with that right? Piracy is BS after all. Besides, he'll probably be too busy (as he said at the end) searching out that Diablo 3 Torrent. Blizzard is rich. They can afford the lost sale and, hey, he "wouldnt have bought it anyway" because he's just a "struggling writer". "Someone else" will spend the money and keep Blizzard in business.
But should companies try to curb it or allow it to flurish?
I think the choice is obvious.
Obvious as it may be, I can't help but think if the industry is doing next to nothing to solve the "problem" or it bears more benefit to leave things as they are to be able to pass draconian laws (think DMCA) on such a basis. I mean it is possible to make it so that pirating is at least a huge lump of hemorroids. Technology is theere and they have the money to do so, instead they choose to bitch and lobby for unfair regulations.
But should companies try to curb it or allow it to flurish?
I think the choice is obvious.
Obvious as it may be, I can't help but think if the industry is doing next to nothing to solve the "problem" or it bears more benefit to leave things as they are to be able to pass draconian laws (think DMCA) on such a basis. I mean it is possible to make it so that pirating is at least a huge lump of hemorroids. Technology is theere and they have the money to do so, instead they choose to bitch and lobby for unfair regulations.
Go figure...
True, but I think you overestimate the game industries capability to truly combat piracy with anything other then stuff like DMCA and/or "always online" games.
Hell, I have seen games you have to login/register with a server to play (single player game) with a piracy hack that put a "fake" registry server on your PC running in the background to spoof it...
It's like the Anti-virus industry -
Are they really that terrible at what they do to be able to stop things or is the virus making industry really that good?
The ones who are left to only react will always, to some extend, be behind the side that is inventing the next thing.
Yeah blame the devs, for their content being a grind. LOL Don't make me laugh. If i get pulled over for speeding let me try to blame the police for it being their fault I was speeding.
Do you relally not understand how the industry works? They want money so they need to keep you subbed. Only way to develop as fast as people consume is grind. So they feed you grind with a carrot (loot) on a stick to keep you subbed. If people would get some distance by not playing themselves through that they might /unsub more likely which would force devs to go other ways.
This is BS really. There is a small population (maybe you're in it) that devotes an enormous (and likely unhealthy) quantity of time to gaming. They're voracious. They push and push and there can *never* be "enough" content, never be "enough" of anything and never be "right" balance. The *second* new content is out, they've "beaten" it. Then they complain there is nothing new.
So the answer has been to create ridiculous hurdles like every person needs a key to get IN to the next room and it drops once a week from a rare mob. WHAT ElSE can the devs do? What is your big idea to satisfy folks who have 19 hours a day to play and obsess over the game?
What can you POSSIBLY do to keep THOSE people happy yet NOT alienate the 80% of NORMAL people playing your game who will *never even see* the content that these people "finish" in 2 hours?
IMO the "hardcore" need to either 1) seek help because they have dangerously addictive personality disorder OR 2) accept that they will ALWAYS be a bit bored and not satisfied.
I mean really... The EASIEST friggin thing is being a critic. What is the genius idea that doesnt require alien or 25th century level technology that can ACTUALLY be implemented in a game? The "ideas" I see from people bitching and moaning about "grinding" and "balance" generally are along the lines of Star Trek Holodeck. They want a perfectly adaptive game where the game itself is essentially an AI and everything is always fun and scripted and challenging and fair and enables THEM to stay "king of the hill" and "the other guy" to stay JUST A BIT behind them and to have ALL of the things THEY want and none of what they DONT want. Now repeat that x1000 permutations because everyone wants something JUST a bit different served to THEM on a silver platter.
IMO it makes perfect sense for the game devs to just ignore this fringe lunatic group (largely) and cater to the 80% (which is what has happened)
Take WoW... WoW has *never* been a grind for ME. I've LOVED it. EQ, on the other hand, DID feel like a "grind". Why? Anything different? Sure some things are much easier in WoW, but in reality *I* changed. While playing EQ *I* was that shut in lunatic looking for my "fix" like a heroin addict and raiding Nagafen at 3am b/c I "needed" a haste item. idiocy.
In WoW, I dont give a damn. I browse around see content and slowly make progress when I can. And it is GREAT.
It isnt about the game, its about the individual and most individuals (ESP who play MMOs) are really sadly broken. It sort of is a natural attraction IMO. The MOST fragile personalities gravitate to these games.
Your idea of owning a virtual item being ridiculous doesn't hold up because you dont' "own that virtual item.
You are granted access to those virtual items. Of course if you want to talk about virtual items not really existing well "they do".
Just like our paper money is a representation of buying power the items, characters and world of a virtual game is representative of "something".
If people are paying money to access video games (that "something") then those things have value. The game companies have put time, money and effort into creating those things. They aren't figments of our imagination.
And just as I said earlier, acquiring a video game is not stealing but it is acquiring access to something that a person has no right to access without his/her paying what the game companies have asked.
What is essentially happening here is that some players feel they are entitled to access these things just because they can.
They make the argument that because it's out there and isn't somethign you can hold in their hand then it's their right to do so.
I do believe the laws say otherwise. The game companies are certainly selling you access to these things and stipulate how you can access them and use them.
So why doesn't it work for you as a player as well if it work for those companies? The thing is you are just looking at thing one way, you should look both ways, from the companies point of view as well as the customer point of view.
Didn't you (the player) put your time into possessing those virtual goods and characters? Just like the company took its time to make their games? What in their right mind make them think you cannot possess what your effort is giving you the right to possess? And further, if you pay for the box, why shouldn't you possess the game as well? If you go buy some bread in a shop, how the fuck the baker can force you to eat the bread only with honey and forbid you to put butter on it? Does it make any sense? Not that much from that perspective, is it?
The thing is, just like pointed the op, there is something about interest here, how ever you turn this aspect, you will come to interest problems. This is what courts are made to, since they were first made in our civilizations they deal with interest problems.
Because in fact you do possess those virtual items and characters somehow in practice, at least from what i know. Because every time the ownership of a character was to be dealt with in front of a court, every time the court gave the right to the player, and not the gaming companies. I have no time now to find you links, and this would need quiet some time to do because those cases are rare, but that's what i recall from all the cases i knew of concerning this aspect. Maybe i'm wrong but i don't believe so.
So we are back in square one. Companies can own their virtual world and everything it doesn't matter. They cannot own their players time and effort as well.
Well, I've looked and the only examples for Western Courts seem to have either settled out of court or are still in process. I belive both were in second life.
Other than that I don't find anything that stipulates a player owns his virtual assets unless he signs some sort of contract stating so. None of the TOS's for mmo's state one owns anything though I'll be curious to see what types of challenges there are.
As far as "putting in work and owning what you create/progress, I believe these are games and as such you are paying for an experience and one that is supposed to be fun.
I could see having some sort of case if you invested money in an island in second life with the idea that you would make money off of the investment but mmos' aren't a money making proposition.
Well, "yet". I'm looking at you Blizzard. With a Jaundiced eye.
and what did I do with their designs? Did I profit from them in anyway..no. If I get the recipe for KFC chicken and make it at home am I going to get sued? Am I a thief?
If the recipe is a copyright, or you say "This is KFCs chicken recipe" when you serve it which is a trademark, yeah you could get sued. The original recipe is a secret of sorts for the company, you can guess at it with the amounts, etc, but if you take that particular recipe, label it as KFC chicken (or even another type) its likely you'll have a lawsuit on your hands. It wouldn't be the first time for KFC to do that over their chicken recipe.
.................
MaskedWeasel,
Not to derail your conversation but I wanted to comment on the above portion of your exchange. I'm an engineer, not a lawyer, but I am somewhat familiar with IP protections for products. I believe you are assigning considerably more protection to companies works then the law actualy supports.
Firstly, lets understand that there are 3 (or 4 depending upon how you look at it) seperate IP rights that cover different sorts of protections...
Firstly there is "Trade Secrets" which covers unauthorized discolsure of sensitive company information, plans processes that could potentialy damage a companies business. Understand that "Trade Secrets" only really covers company employees, contractors or business partners who may have gained access to the protected information through thier relationship with the company. It doesn't cover outside entities who have no formal relationship with the company and may have obtained said information through other perfectly legitimate means (such as reverse engineering...or just plain guessing). So that's right out in the example sited.
Secondly there is copyright protection.... now copyright only protects PUBLICATION of "artistic works" (i.e. books, movies, songs). It doesn't really cover things like recipies or product blueprints....other then any value they might have as "artistic works". The only way a person might get in trouble with a recipie is if they took said recipie in printed format from a publication produced by the owner and copied it verbatim. Note also that there are very important "Fair Use" exceptions to copyright law covering both commercial and especialy non-commercial usages. One of those important exceptions....is legitimate product research and testing.....another is product review and criticism (i.e. A reviewer can publish/reproduce certain excerpts from a copyrighted work of art in order to provide consumers with a review or commentary of it)
Thridly there are PATENTS, which is I believe, the IP right under consideration in the example you sited. PATENTS are designed to protect a process or invention for a LIMITED PERIOD of time. Thier intended to help spur invention. Note that PATENT protections are both limited in duration (which is why you see all those generic brand med's out there on the market) and in scope. PATENTS protect against commercial use...not private.... so you could very well reproduce KFC's recipie (assuming it is still under patent) for PRIVATE USE as long as you weren't SELLING it. Also note that reverse engineering is a perfectly acceptable and legal practice under patent law..... and in fact is a major portion of most companies R&D programs. You can absolutely use reverse engineering to figure out how a competitors product is made..... what you CAN'T do is copy thier blueprints/methods EXACTLY and SELL it yourself..... change a component or method or two....and you've got a perfectly legitimate product that you can sell. Note that with technology products you DO have to be carefull HOW you go about reverse engineering something (thanks to a very badly written law called the DMCA).....you can't break somethings encyption or digital protections to peak under the hood....but it's perfectly legitimate to observe the physical properties of how something behaves and deduce how it might have been made.
Lasty you have Trademark Law. Trademarks are designed to protect the CONSUMER (not the company) from fraudulent or counterfit goods and services. Essentialy if a company has a trademark, then a competitor can't go around trying to masquerade thier own product as thier brand and trick a consumer into buying it. That's the key behind trademark protection.... if a reasonable consumer might be confused as to what and from who he is buying a product then Trademark protection rightfully applies....if not then it doesn't. Again here, trademark is designed largely to protect against Commercial...not private use. So I think it also doesn't apply here...
If a company markted a product saying "This is KFC style chicken" then there MIGHT be a legitimate case for trademark infringement...... on the other hand if they said "This is JOE's chicken...tastes just like KFC." Then that is pretty much legitimate, non-infringing marketing. In no case would it apply to a private person making chicken for thier own/families use that said...."Hey, I figured out how to make chicken just like KFC's recipie."
Anti-piracy laws in general are B.S. because we already have laws against theft, fraud and copyright laws as well, though some adjustments should be made for digital ownership. The bottom line comes down to how anti-piracy affects me and not some two thousand page document declaring some philosophical ownership arguments.
SWIM = Someone Who Isn't Me
In recent memory (SWIM) owns at least 5 games that he has also downloaded pirated cracked copies in order to not have to bother using the disc or opening the box.
(SWIM) owns a few games that have dial home programs and when he is not connected to the internet or when (SWIM) isp is doing maintenance (SWIM) cannot play). This includes some games that have both multi-player and single player options. He has downloaded copies or downloaded cracks for these games.
(SWIM) owns one game in particular that the pirated version is more stable and loads faster then the original, this game is The Witcher 2: Assassin of Kings. The retail version has drm in place that slows the game down.
(SWIM) Also owns 2 copies of season 1 of firefly and still has a pirated copy in order to avoid damaging the originals.
(SWIM) Has also pirated games without owning the originals, however he ends up uninstalling those fairly quick. In some cases he actually buys a game or 1 of the games in a particular series that he otherwise never would have without first playing that downloaded "sample".
Personally I don't play a lot of games where anti-piracy software aka DRM improves the quality of my experience, possibly in MMO's but subscriptions keep that to a minimum anyway. I don't support stealing either but if publishing companies or developers are going to keep my business somethings going to have to change because I will no longer tolerate being shit on as a paying customer while pirates enjoy all the benefits and very little hinderance. So it seems to me that they should just STFU, keep collecting obscene amounts of money before tons of dissatified cusomters cock block them into bankruptcy because in the end we only need food, water and shelter.
To be noted:
DRM is not legally mandatory.
Some software developers believe they have the right to your physical hardware because their software is installed on your machine as reflected in some EULA's.
I've always felt that this issue is a no-win scenario. Frankly game piracy and modding are always limited by the xpertise of the individuals on hand who commit themselves to such things. Your average player probably is nor will ever be involved. None the less, make it too easy and they simply will take advantage of it which leads to the effect of making piracy the "boogeyman" that it is. Yea people will still find a way but that's the relationship: the harder it is the more restrictive it is.
Likewise that also proportionately has an effect on modders who may wish to do the community harm as well but if developers are not feeling they are getting their cash cow, due, piracy or not, the resources they devote to it are also as limited. Been there and done that with the Diablo 2 crap and frankly words can never express what disappointments come to mind at times.
One thing that comes to mind is Avatar acheived a pinnacle of 19million illegal downloads and that figure only gets higher if you include illegaly distributed copies as well. Warner Bros is still making a hefty profit of it but I always take the premise of "how would you feel" into account. IF I were WB, 19M illegal downloads and millions of illegal discs may be overall "chunk change" in retrospect but no one wants to be the "loosing" end of that stick either; if people were put into those shoes they'd feel and possibly act the same way.
The article is right that things get overblown in proportion but lets face it, we can't crack down on piracy anymore than we can let it flourish.People wouldn't mind a free thing but life doesn't work out that way either now does it?
The tide has turned, now its the gaming companies turn to milk us the poor customers. Online game activation, digital downloads for extra content etc.. once they hook u in, than u need to pay to play. Gone will be the days that u can mod games cuz game companies need to make money to account to their investors who dont care 2cents about gamers, only the bottomline.
You're use of the word ' Modder' ...is rediculous. The people to which you refer to are in No way modders and should not be referred to as such. You dishoner the Modding community by doing so, regardless of your pathetic attempt to seperate the two in your post.
That was a good read if I say so myself, and I agree with you wholeheartedly on the issue.
Though, and this was sort of brought up in the article, I think once anyone has income to spend on a game, they'd likely just buy it and save themselves the headache of pirating it. Usually, and even if it's an old game, downloading, cracking, and getting the game to run is the easy part. The hard part lies in the small little things, like content still being restricted, or the random bugs/quirks with the copy of the game. Half the time, it never seems to work right.
Other times, getting the game to run alone is a headache. Everything usually works fine in the torrented files themselves, and it's pretty straightforward. Sometimes, it doesn't, either because of your hardware or your software, something is bound to happen, and while most issues can be fixed pretty quickly if you know what you're doing, some are just... baffling.
Then there's the moral standpoint. At least I feel bad when I pirate a game. If everything checks out, I may play the campaign, especially if it's a game I've been told I absolutely need to play. Most of the time, I'll quit halfway through, because there's a lingering thought in the back of my head that I didn't buy this game; it's not mine. I sampled it, saw what it was, if I want to see the rest, I'll buy it and play it burden free.
I'm sure alot of people are like this. The problems outweigh the good, at least if you make minnimum wage or more, even if they've pirated more games than they've had girls talk to them.
The only people who really pirate and pirate exclusively are kids. Teens. People ages 14-18 who can't get their hands on every game they want to. They don't have jobs, and mom can't buy Dragon Age AND Mass Effect. They're certainly not missing out on Mass Effect, and Dragon Age doesn't seem like a game they'd want to miss either. So, what do they do? Compromise? Fuck no, they spent years learning to do this shit, they're firing up their browser, going to their preferred torrent site, and experiencing themselves some unskippable games, because they don't want to be the equivalent of someone today who grew up with Majora's Mask but still hasn't played it.
No, that isn't my story, I have legal copies of both Dragon Age and Mass Effect. I don't have any of the sequals though...
People that put themselves above others put me in a bad mood. http://www.surrealtwilight.com/index.php ^Has nothing to do with that retarded Vampire Novel Series, I swear!^
I will pirate a game to demo it. I did it with Battlefield Bad Company 2. I played the single-player and bought it after I liked it. I view it as being a smart shopper. I want to "test drive" things before I buy them. I test drive a car. Why cant I test drive software? I rarely buy something that I haven't seen the performance of.
I am glad this article got bumped because it is one of the best I have read in a long time.
The real plague is excessive DRM and game companies that ram crappy bug ridden games down our throats and then fail to support them after they have been bought and paid for. The good games that are worth paying for will find their supporters. The bad game companies that treat their customers like criminals deserve to go bankrupt.
The question that bothers me is, if intelectual property really should exist? Well, let's take a look, what is the game/song/move? I would say, it's an idea or actually- the set of ideas that are linked with each other and make some sort of a system. You have to think what kind of game it's gonna, be, set up plot, obstacles, name the opponent, create a path, invent input and output etc. It's always ideas that make game, later you just have to translate it to PC language, code it, make textures, engine etc.
Ok, game (or any intelectual property we consider) is an idea, the question is- can you be an owner of idea? Can you claim it belongs to you, and punish everyone who is going to use it? Unfortunetly, in modern world- yes, but it's just pure hypocrisy. Everyone uses somebody else's ideas- language, letters, notes, math funtions that allows programers to translate the real world behavior into binary code. Do you pay anything for using such stuff to people who invented it or to their successors? Not really. The difference between goods and ideas is the fact, you can't multiply goods, if you take one from a pool ,there is one less. If you copy ideas, the amount of them increases.
Of course, game devs want to earn for the work they've done, but I bet everything is about business model, not claiming to be an owner of something that can be multiplied after it's done.
Not to flame Coyote or anything, but in regard to this particular article - I think he kind of missed the point in regard to people. They're cheap. No doubt, they're as stupid as says - but pirated stuff is even easier to get. C'mon, if you're looking around the office for the average user - you're looking in the wrong place.
You need to look at their kids.
Whether you're talking about movies, songs, books, or even games... it's usually faster and easier to find things than it is to go through the system to buy it at an online store.
Companies are attempting to fight it - by tying into forcing connections to an online server. That will get you by many of the average folks - but in the end, somebody will just find the hack for what it is looking for so that a dummy server can be setup.
Some people are stupid, no doubt. Some people are creative. They allow the average person to do things they could never dream of doing...
...I agree that game piracy is BS. From the standpoint, that people pirating things is wrong - that it is BS.
If you enjoy something, pay for it...that simple.
It is no wonder that F2P is so popular...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Since when are hackers called modders? Why change the name or even try? Moders MOD, and hackers HACK. If it aint broken, don't mod it, and don't hack it.
I agree that most people aren't smart enough to pirate a game, let alone, come even close to modding their new 360. The new 360's are *very* difficult to mod, but, you don't have to do it yourself. Most people nowadays have no idea what "usenet" is. That works for me though.
Movies are pirated like crazy still, and so are games. Online games? That doesn't even make sense. How do you even pirate an online game? Especially one that's free? They are pretty diffiucult to hack too, and hacks never "live" for very long anyway, so it's pretty much a waste of time to even bother.
What was my point again? Oh yeah, don't call modders, hackers. That's stupid.
Comments
A big pet peeve of mine is people rationalizing bad behvior in completely specious ways, so this is just a general reply to the legions who continue to do so:
"well they over charge!!!!"
"well I wouldnt have bought it anyway!"
OK... Ferrari "over charges". They *really* do. And I am 99% sure that anyone posting on this list (esp reading these posts) is *never* buying one yet *surely* wants one.
So there you go. You want it. It IS over priced (and it is), and you wont buy one anyway because you cant afford it.
So go steal one.
Oh? Whats that? Oh right thats different. Now please do come up with 200 reasons why its "different" that make you look like an idiot. It's different because a Ferrari is a "tangible item"? No. In a service economy the VAST majority of us make whatever money we make from INTANGIBLES... so think long and hard before you make THAT rule stick because you want to steal games. Next someone will be stealing whatever it is that pays YOUR bills (or to make it fit this list better, pays mom and dads bills since they probably pay yours)
No... the real reason It's "different" is because you don't have the stones to try it because you know if you get caught you'll either get shot by the owner or land in "pound-me-in-the-rear" prison sharing a cell with Tyrone.
So lets cut the BS about how piracy is ok with 1000 word diatribes on why. Put the same effort and energy into something productive and just *maybe* you'll have 2 cents to rub together so buying a $50 game won't be a life impacting decision.
We have really devolved into a badly entitled, ADD culture. The folks condoning bad behavior on discussions like these sound like friggin junkies. They just GOTTA get their "fix". Need it NOW. Its the OTHER GUYS fault that they need it and want it and cant afford it.
If the publishers are so bad/greedy/lazy/lousy, then FIND A NEW DAMN HOBBY. maybe take up programming and WRITE YOUR OWN GAME and then give it away. Oh right, you'd never give YOUR work away.
How about someone takes the entire contents of this article and puts it on a site with their own ad banners to make some nice click-through from it? The author should be ok with that right? Piracy is BS after all. Besides, he'll probably be too busy (as he said at the end) searching out that Diablo 3 Torrent. Blizzard is rich. They can afford the lost sale and, hey, he "wouldnt have bought it anyway" because he's just a "struggling writer". "Someone else" will spend the money and keep Blizzard in business.
Obvious as it may be, I can't help but think if the industry is doing next to nothing to solve the "problem" or it bears more benefit to leave things as they are to be able to pass draconian laws (think DMCA) on such a basis. I mean it is possible to make it so that pirating is at least a huge lump of hemorroids. Technology is theere and they have the money to do so, instead they choose to bitch and lobby for unfair regulations.
Go figure...
True, but I think you overestimate the game industries capability to truly combat piracy with anything other then stuff like DMCA and/or "always online" games.
Hell, I have seen games you have to login/register with a server to play (single player game) with a piracy hack that put a "fake" registry server on your PC running in the background to spoof it...
It's like the Anti-virus industry -
Are they really that terrible at what they do to be able to stop things or is the virus making industry really that good?
The ones who are left to only react will always, to some extend, be behind the side that is inventing the next thing.
This is BS really. There is a small population (maybe you're in it) that devotes an enormous (and likely unhealthy) quantity of time to gaming. They're voracious. They push and push and there can *never* be "enough" content, never be "enough" of anything and never be "right" balance. The *second* new content is out, they've "beaten" it. Then they complain there is nothing new.
So the answer has been to create ridiculous hurdles like every person needs a key to get IN to the next room and it drops once a week from a rare mob. WHAT ElSE can the devs do? What is your big idea to satisfy folks who have 19 hours a day to play and obsess over the game?
What can you POSSIBLY do to keep THOSE people happy yet NOT alienate the 80% of NORMAL people playing your game who will *never even see* the content that these people "finish" in 2 hours?
IMO the "hardcore" need to either 1) seek help because they have dangerously addictive personality disorder OR 2) accept that they will ALWAYS be a bit bored and not satisfied.
I mean really... The EASIEST friggin thing is being a critic. What is the genius idea that doesnt require alien or 25th century level technology that can ACTUALLY be implemented in a game? The "ideas" I see from people bitching and moaning about "grinding" and "balance" generally are along the lines of Star Trek Holodeck. They want a perfectly adaptive game where the game itself is essentially an AI and everything is always fun and scripted and challenging and fair and enables THEM to stay "king of the hill" and "the other guy" to stay JUST A BIT behind them and to have ALL of the things THEY want and none of what they DONT want. Now repeat that x1000 permutations because everyone wants something JUST a bit different served to THEM on a silver platter.
IMO it makes perfect sense for the game devs to just ignore this fringe lunatic group (largely) and cater to the 80% (which is what has happened)
Take WoW... WoW has *never* been a grind for ME. I've LOVED it. EQ, on the other hand, DID feel like a "grind". Why? Anything different? Sure some things are much easier in WoW, but in reality *I* changed. While playing EQ *I* was that shut in lunatic looking for my "fix" like a heroin addict and raiding Nagafen at 3am b/c I "needed" a haste item. idiocy.
In WoW, I dont give a damn. I browse around see content and slowly make progress when I can. And it is GREAT.
It isnt about the game, its about the individual and most individuals (ESP who play MMOs) are really sadly broken. It sort of is a natural attraction IMO. The MOST fragile personalities gravitate to these games.
Well, I've looked and the only examples for Western Courts seem to have either settled out of court or are still in process. I belive both were in second life.
Other than that I don't find anything that stipulates a player owns his virtual assets unless he signs some sort of contract stating so. None of the TOS's for mmo's state one owns anything though I'll be curious to see what types of challenges there are.
As far as "putting in work and owning what you create/progress, I believe these are games and as such you are paying for an experience and one that is supposed to be fun.
I could see having some sort of case if you invested money in an island in second life with the idea that you would make money off of the investment but mmos' aren't a money making proposition.
Well, "yet". I'm looking at you Blizzard. With a Jaundiced eye.
In any case, this might be of interest: http://www.gamerlaw.co.uk/2011/08/virtual-goods-real-rights.html
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
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and what did I do with their designs? Did I profit from them in anyway..no. If I get the recipe for KFC chicken and make it at home am I going to get sued? Am I a thief?
If the recipe is a copyright, or you say "This is KFCs chicken recipe" when you serve it which is a trademark, yeah you could get sued. The original recipe is a secret of sorts for the company, you can guess at it with the amounts, etc, but if you take that particular recipe, label it as KFC chicken (or even another type) its likely you'll have a lawsuit on your hands. It wouldn't be the first time for KFC to do that over their chicken recipe.
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MaskedWeasel,
Not to derail your conversation but I wanted to comment on the above portion of your exchange. I'm an engineer, not a lawyer, but I am somewhat familiar with IP protections for products. I believe you are assigning considerably more protection to companies works then the law actualy supports.
Firstly, lets understand that there are 3 (or 4 depending upon how you look at it) seperate IP rights that cover different sorts of protections...
Firstly there is "Trade Secrets" which covers unauthorized discolsure of sensitive company information, plans processes that could potentialy damage a companies business. Understand that "Trade Secrets" only really covers company employees, contractors or business partners who may have gained access to the protected information through thier relationship with the company. It doesn't cover outside entities who have no formal relationship with the company and may have obtained said information through other perfectly legitimate means (such as reverse engineering...or just plain guessing). So that's right out in the example sited.
Secondly there is copyright protection.... now copyright only protects PUBLICATION of "artistic works" (i.e. books, movies, songs). It doesn't really cover things like recipies or product blueprints....other then any value they might have as "artistic works". The only way a person might get in trouble with a recipie is if they took said recipie in printed format from a publication produced by the owner and copied it verbatim. Note also that there are very important "Fair Use" exceptions to copyright law covering both commercial and especialy non-commercial usages. One of those important exceptions....is legitimate product research and testing.....another is product review and criticism (i.e. A reviewer can publish/reproduce certain excerpts from a copyrighted work of art in order to provide consumers with a review or commentary of it)
Thridly there are PATENTS, which is I believe, the IP right under consideration in the example you sited. PATENTS are designed to protect a process or invention for a LIMITED PERIOD of time. Thier intended to help spur invention. Note that PATENT protections are both limited in duration (which is why you see all those generic brand med's out there on the market) and in scope. PATENTS protect against commercial use...not private.... so you could very well reproduce KFC's recipie (assuming it is still under patent) for PRIVATE USE as long as you weren't SELLING it. Also note that reverse engineering is a perfectly acceptable and legal practice under patent law..... and in fact is a major portion of most companies R&D programs. You can absolutely use reverse engineering to figure out how a competitors product is made..... what you CAN'T do is copy thier blueprints/methods EXACTLY and SELL it yourself..... change a component or method or two....and you've got a perfectly legitimate product that you can sell. Note that with technology products you DO have to be carefull HOW you go about reverse engineering something (thanks to a very badly written law called the DMCA).....you can't break somethings encyption or digital protections to peak under the hood....but it's perfectly legitimate to observe the physical properties of how something behaves and deduce how it might have been made.
Lasty you have Trademark Law. Trademarks are designed to protect the CONSUMER (not the company) from fraudulent or counterfit goods and services. Essentialy if a company has a trademark, then a competitor can't go around trying to masquerade thier own product as thier brand and trick a consumer into buying it. That's the key behind trademark protection.... if a reasonable consumer might be confused as to what and from who he is buying a product then Trademark protection rightfully applies....if not then it doesn't. Again here, trademark is designed largely to protect against Commercial...not private use. So I think it also doesn't apply here...
If a company markted a product saying "This is KFC style chicken" then there MIGHT be a legitimate case for trademark infringement...... on the other hand if they said "This is JOE's chicken...tastes just like KFC." Then that is pretty much legitimate, non-infringing marketing. In no case would it apply to a private person making chicken for thier own/families use that said...."Hey, I figured out how to make chicken just like KFC's recipie."
Anti-piracy laws in general are B.S. because we already have laws against theft, fraud and copyright laws as well, though some adjustments should be made for digital ownership. The bottom line comes down to how anti-piracy affects me and not some two thousand page document declaring some philosophical ownership arguments.
SWIM = Someone Who Isn't Me
In recent memory (SWIM) owns at least 5 games that he has also downloaded pirated cracked copies in order to not have to bother using the disc or opening the box.
(SWIM) owns a few games that have dial home programs and when he is not connected to the internet or when (SWIM) isp is doing maintenance (SWIM) cannot play). This includes some games that have both multi-player and single player options. He has downloaded copies or downloaded cracks for these games.
(SWIM) owns one game in particular that the pirated version is more stable and loads faster then the original, this game is The Witcher 2: Assassin of Kings. The retail version has drm in place that slows the game down.
(SWIM) Also owns 2 copies of season 1 of firefly and still has a pirated copy in order to avoid damaging the originals.
(SWIM) Has also pirated games without owning the originals, however he ends up uninstalling those fairly quick. In some cases he actually buys a game or 1 of the games in a particular series that he otherwise never would have without first playing that downloaded "sample".
Personally I don't play a lot of games where anti-piracy software aka DRM improves the quality of my experience, possibly in MMO's but subscriptions keep that to a minimum anyway. I don't support stealing either but if publishing companies or developers are going to keep my business somethings going to have to change because I will no longer tolerate being shit on as a paying customer while pirates enjoy all the benefits and very little hinderance. So it seems to me that they should just STFU, keep collecting obscene amounts of money before tons of dissatified cusomters cock block them into bankruptcy because in the end we only need food, water and shelter.
To be noted:
DRM is not legally mandatory.
Some software developers believe they have the right to your physical hardware because their software is installed on your machine as reflected in some EULA's.
"LOL"
I've always felt that this issue is a no-win scenario. Frankly game piracy and modding are always limited by the xpertise of the individuals on hand who commit themselves to such things. Your average player probably is nor will ever be involved. None the less, make it too easy and they simply will take advantage of it which leads to the effect of making piracy the "boogeyman" that it is. Yea people will still find a way but that's the relationship: the harder it is the more restrictive it is.
Likewise that also proportionately has an effect on modders who may wish to do the community harm as well but if developers are not feeling they are getting their cash cow, due, piracy or not, the resources they devote to it are also as limited. Been there and done that with the Diablo 2 crap and frankly words can never express what disappointments come to mind at times.
One thing that comes to mind is Avatar acheived a pinnacle of 19million illegal downloads and that figure only gets higher if you include illegaly distributed copies as well. Warner Bros is still making a hefty profit of it but I always take the premise of "how would you feel" into account. IF I were WB, 19M illegal downloads and millions of illegal discs may be overall "chunk change" in retrospect but no one wants to be the "loosing" end of that stick either; if people were put into those shoes they'd feel and possibly act the same way.
The article is right that things get overblown in proportion but lets face it, we can't crack down on piracy anymore than we can let it flourish.People wouldn't mind a free thing but life doesn't work out that way either now does it?
The tide has turned, now its the gaming companies turn to milk us the poor customers. Online game activation, digital downloads for extra content etc.. once they hook u in, than u need to pay to play. Gone will be the days that u can mod games cuz game companies need to make money to account to their investors who dont care 2cents about gamers, only the bottomline.
You're use of the word ' Modder' ...is rediculous. The people to which you refer to are in No way modders and should not be referred to as such. You dishoner the Modding community by doing so, regardless of your pathetic attempt to seperate the two in your post.
Addons. End of discussion.
Personally, I don't see why the post articles like these done by "asshats". I guess everything goes downhill after a while.
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Real as Reality Television!!!
*Luxury, sorry just had to do it...
QQ about edumacation!
Uhh... what?
That was a good read if I say so myself, and I agree with you wholeheartedly on the issue.
Though, and this was sort of brought up in the article, I think once anyone has income to spend on a game, they'd likely just buy it and save themselves the headache of pirating it. Usually, and even if it's an old game, downloading, cracking, and getting the game to run is the easy part. The hard part lies in the small little things, like content still being restricted, or the random bugs/quirks with the copy of the game. Half the time, it never seems to work right.
Other times, getting the game to run alone is a headache. Everything usually works fine in the torrented files themselves, and it's pretty straightforward. Sometimes, it doesn't, either because of your hardware or your software, something is bound to happen, and while most issues can be fixed pretty quickly if you know what you're doing, some are just... baffling.
Then there's the moral standpoint. At least I feel bad when I pirate a game. If everything checks out, I may play the campaign, especially if it's a game I've been told I absolutely need to play. Most of the time, I'll quit halfway through, because there's a lingering thought in the back of my head that I didn't buy this game; it's not mine. I sampled it, saw what it was, if I want to see the rest, I'll buy it and play it burden free.
I'm sure alot of people are like this. The problems outweigh the good, at least if you make minnimum wage or more, even if they've pirated more games than they've had girls talk to them.
The only people who really pirate and pirate exclusively are kids. Teens. People ages 14-18 who can't get their hands on every game they want to. They don't have jobs, and mom can't buy Dragon Age AND Mass Effect. They're certainly not missing out on Mass Effect, and Dragon Age doesn't seem like a game they'd want to miss either. So, what do they do? Compromise? Fuck no, they spent years learning to do this shit, they're firing up their browser, going to their preferred torrent site, and experiencing themselves some unskippable games, because they don't want to be the equivalent of someone today who grew up with Majora's Mask but still hasn't played it.
No, that isn't my story, I have legal copies of both Dragon Age and Mass Effect. I don't have any of the sequals though...
People that put themselves above others put me in a bad mood.
http://www.surrealtwilight.com/index.php
^Has nothing to do with that retarded Vampire Novel Series, I swear!^
I will pirate a game to demo it. I did it with Battlefield Bad Company 2. I played the single-player and bought it after I liked it. I view it as being a smart shopper. I want to "test drive" things before I buy them. I test drive a car. Why cant I test drive software? I rarely buy something that I haven't seen the performance of.
ahhh bite me i still burn dvd's *sticks tounge out at OP*
crap article is crap, the train of thought went from a to d and completely skipped b and c. great writing.
D 1 and D 2 was chock full of mods and hacks editors it was sick....u could have ligit toons but ya the grifers were out there fer sure
I never had anyone break into a passworded game in D2. I never cared for pvp in D2 so I just left when hostiled or used passworded games.
I am glad this article got bumped because it is one of the best I have read in a long time.
The real plague is excessive DRM and game companies that ram crappy bug ridden games down our throats and then fail to support them after they have been bought and paid for. The good games that are worth paying for will find their supporters. The bad game companies that treat their customers like criminals deserve to go bankrupt.
{mod edit}
The question that bothers me is, if intelectual property really should exist? Well, let's take a look, what is the game/song/move? I would say, it's an idea or actually- the set of ideas that are linked with each other and make some sort of a system. You have to think what kind of game it's gonna, be, set up plot, obstacles, name the opponent, create a path, invent input and output etc. It's always ideas that make game, later you just have to translate it to PC language, code it, make textures, engine etc.
Ok, game (or any intelectual property we consider) is an idea, the question is- can you be an owner of idea? Can you claim it belongs to you, and punish everyone who is going to use it? Unfortunetly, in modern world- yes, but it's just pure hypocrisy. Everyone uses somebody else's ideas- language, letters, notes, math funtions that allows programers to translate the real world behavior into binary code. Do you pay anything for using such stuff to people who invented it or to their successors? Not really. The difference between goods and ideas is the fact, you can't multiply goods, if you take one from a pool ,there is one less. If you copy ideas, the amount of them increases.
Of course, game devs want to earn for the work they've done, but I bet everything is about business model, not claiming to be an owner of something that can be multiplied after it's done.
Not to flame Coyote or anything, but in regard to this particular article - I think he kind of missed the point in regard to people. They're cheap. No doubt, they're as stupid as says - but pirated stuff is even easier to get. C'mon, if you're looking around the office for the average user - you're looking in the wrong place.
You need to look at their kids.
Whether you're talking about movies, songs, books, or even games... it's usually faster and easier to find things than it is to go through the system to buy it at an online store.
Companies are attempting to fight it - by tying into forcing connections to an online server. That will get you by many of the average folks - but in the end, somebody will just find the hack for what it is looking for so that a dummy server can be setup.
Some people are stupid, no doubt. Some people are creative. They allow the average person to do things they could never dream of doing...
...I agree that game piracy is BS. From the standpoint, that people pirating things is wrong - that it is BS.
If you enjoy something, pay for it...that simple.
It is no wonder that F2P is so popular...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Since when are hackers called modders? Why change the name or even try? Moders MOD, and hackers HACK. If it aint broken, don't mod it, and don't hack it.
I agree that most people aren't smart enough to pirate a game, let alone, come even close to modding their new 360. The new 360's are *very* difficult to mod, but, you don't have to do it yourself. Most people nowadays have no idea what "usenet" is. That works for me though.
Movies are pirated like crazy still, and so are games. Online games? That doesn't even make sense. How do you even pirate an online game? Especially one that's free? They are pretty diffiucult to hack too, and hacks never "live" for very long anyway, so it's pretty much a waste of time to even bother.
What was my point again? Oh yeah, don't call modders, hackers. That's stupid.
+1 for the OP