No, I like grinding. I like the rhythm of combat. It's very "zen" to me.
Or just plain ol' relaxing.
I feel the same way. Pop on my favorite online station to a dreamy-trance channel and off to my spot for a while.
What I find amazing is how much progress can be made. I often level up and did't even realize I was close.
Haha i'm the same way, thats one thing I loved about FFXI, I know it sometimes took 20 minutes to find a party, but once you got in the groove it was like sex.
In MMO's I tend to hate it, but I think that has more to do with the progression rate than anything else. Grinding on mobs just has too slow of rates (exp/drops/etc) to be any fun in most mmo's and just feels unrewarding.
But in other types of games such as turn based JRPG's with random encounters for example, I love the grind and will often go out of my way to do it (since it is usually required anyways).
Yeah I can see where you are coming from.
But for me its more rewarding, if i've spent the last week grinding and I finally get that level, I feel way more acomplished.
To me I feel almost cheated, I'm on WoW and I do 3 - 4 quest and even in later levels (75-80) you can do a level a day. To me that is not rewarding.
I actually prefered leveling in L2 over leveling in the current Questing MMO Flavor. You could visit dungeons, fight mobs, and fight raid bosses any time of day. You just had to know what to fight, when, and where. If you could understand that, you could level very fast. I could get to 40-50 on L2 faster than I could on WoW because my pace isn't limited by the pace of Questing. A "twink" in L2 can level faster than a "twink" in WoW...and their making this faster soon lol. After 50, however, L2 began to get a bit slower. I feel like questing should be reserved for tangible prizes and not for experience.
I'm not sure what SWG is like now, but before the missions were fine, you got experience for exploration (and there was a lot to explore), and leveling was pretty fast regardless.
Just hitting monsters is just as "mindless" as following quest guides and quest guide add-ons, but knowing what to fight and how to fight for "mindless killing" takes more brain power than following waypoints. It is, however, harder to bot a quest system than it is to bot just killing things.
They should make it viable to just kill things to level even if it's a questing mmo or make it more viable the more contributors that are involved so you can get that community and friendship back.
But to answer the OPs question, MMOs have only been pretty big for half a generation. You'll see older flavors (because there were many) return once the current flavor (because there's not many) is exhausted. People are attracted to different things by nature...it just has to work when they play it.
I enjoy questless grinding, both solo and in a group. I especially enjoy it if it's easy to get a spot in a random group and the mobs aren't heavily contested to the point where kill stealing, training, and ganking are a problem. It's challenging as well as fun if the mobs are quite a bit higher level so that the team needs good healing, pulling, and tanking skills.
Even though Guild Wars 2 isn't going to have the trinity, if there are spots to grind higher level mobs as a team, I guarantee people will take on these roles to some extent, which is fine by me. It's nice not to be locked into them, though. As for the other requirements, the way GW2 is setting up loot and grouping, it sounds like leveling in open world could be quite a bit of fun.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
In MMO's I tend to hate it, but I think that has more to do with the progression rate than anything else. Grinding on mobs just has too slow of rates (exp/drops/etc) to be any fun in most mmo's and just feels unrewarding.
But in other types of games such as turn based JRPG's with random encounters for example, I love the grind and will often go out of my way to do it (since it is usually required anyways).
But that is because the design the game like that. They want you to do quest and give you great rewards for it. Because they know if you feel rewarded you will like it more. They dont want you to level killing random mobs for xp. And they give you terrible xp for the mob kills to make you feel its a waste of time.
With better rewards, item drops and great xp, killing mobs would be less boring. And if it was faster progress and levelling compared to doing quests some players would prefer it and do it. Of course if they punish people that prefer that playstyle with no good item drops and very slow levelling almost no one will do it...
This is a choice the developers made. But there is no reason it must work like that.
In MMO's I tend to hate it, but I think that has more to do with the progression rate than anything else. Grinding on mobs just has too slow of rates (exp/drops/etc) to be any fun in most mmo's and just feels unrewarding.
But in other types of games such as turn based JRPG's with random encounters for example, I love the grind and will often go out of my way to do it (since it is usually required anyways).
But that is because the design the game like that. They want you to do quest and give you great rewards for it. Because they know if you feel rewarded you will like it more. They dont want you to level killing random mobs for xp. And they give you terrible xp for the mob kills to make you feel its a waste of time.
With better rewards, item drops and great xp, killing mobs would be less boring. And if it was faster progress and levelling compared to doing quests some players would prefer it and do it. Of course if they punish people that prefer that playstyle with no good item drops and very slow levelling almost no one will do it...
This is a choice the developers made. But there is no reason it must work like that.
Very good post. That's exactly it.
There isn't 1 correct way to make an mmo. There's just only 1 mmo with the most subscribers ever...and there can be only 1 mmo with the most subscribers ever, whether it's the same one or a different one.
It's always going to feel like a grind to someone because once leveling is faster, you'll want it faster...and faster... until where's the point of even having progression? People spend to much time thinking about the "Final Level" and they should realize a good mmo lets you enjoy progression or participate in "End Game" from the begginning in small ways and large ways at the end.
when I was younger, I actually enjoyed griding. But now, when my free time is getting shorter, I look for games with as less griding as posible. That's why I love gw.
2. It gave a sence of acomplishment, I have a full time job and a wife and a kid, I have my projects that I work on (rebuilding a 91' Talon) So I don't have tons of time to play a MMO, but when I log on I prefere my time to mean something, Even if it takes me 3 years to get to cap, I prefere that because then it actually means something. None of this "well i'm on WoW and I capped 4 classes last month"...which isn't much of a exageration.
What gives the sense of accomplishment is the game's progression system, not the fact that it was grindy. A good progression system is probably the single most important feature in hooking players and keeping them playing. It's what allows players to put up with what we have come to call the "grind." When we speak of a grind, we speak of enduring hours of boring gameplay in the name of eventually advancing in some significant way. The satisfaction that comes with this eventual advancement outweighs the pains of enduring the grind. When we speak of our desire to eliminate the grind as much as possible, it's that boring gameplay we aim to eliminate, not the compelling progression. (Note that "we" here is an arbitrary pronoun used mostly for the sake of smooth sentence structure.)
Imagine this: a game that provides that sense of accomplishment you enjoy (and it can still take you 3 years to cap), where the act of working toward those accomplishments is in itself extremely fun!
Imagine this: a game that provides that sense of accomplishment you enjoy (and it can still take you 3 years to cap), where the act of working toward those accomplishments is in itself extremely fun!
Yes, but when everyone only cares about "End Game", any amount of progression style falls to a low priority so that it's all a grind until you get to the "end".
In previous mmos, you could participate in many of the "End" in some fashion be it small...and eventually realize how much larger a contribution to that "End" you made.
people always bring up "oh yeah remember reading the book where the hero grinds" example, but i will bring it up a different way. So how many people picked up a bat and because a world class baseball player. or how about that world champion boxer that won the first time he put on gloves. and every cop and fireman knew exactly what to do form day one with out any kinda training or practice. i could keep going but the point remains, yes they dont put the part in books where the hero gains his skills and focus more on the action, but thats not to say that every character was that good just from choosing their skill or profession.
it is true that grinding get alittle mundane but i have made more friends looking for groups than running random dungeons because in the later people are anonymous act like jerks and disconnet at the slighest hint of trouble. but i have friends made from spending those hours grinding, chatting, raiding, heck even fishing/drinking.
Take a game like UO for example; you didn't grind mobs in dungeons to gain skills (for the most part). You usually did so to earn magic weapons and items to use/sell - but more importantly you earned gold which then help fund your characters and housing. It was something you could do casually and only when needed and sometimes not even necessary depending on other methods used to gain the same items (PvP, PKing, Scaming, trading, crafting, etc.).
Grinding when levels are involved is a different story. As in level based games, grinding is usually done in specific leveling zones with the main goal to simply earn you XP until you level up. Once you level up, you move on and never come back once you've out leveled the zone. Items/gold are usually just a byproduct. That or you grind for some specific piece of gear at high levels.
I'm more of a supporter of skill-based, open world games. Mob grinding in these environments tend to be a way for players to make money, but usually are not the only way. Darkfall grinding, EVE grinding (albeit boring due to the combat mechanics), and UO grinding varied differently from Lineage 2, WoW (although there wasn't much grinding even in the pre WotLK era unless you count dungeon farming grinding, which it really is), and FF. The former examples were more about wealth acquisition while the latter were more about character advancement in hopes of reaching the max level ASAP.
The preference for which is better based on the player's personal taste, but I always liked grinding in non-level based games as the point of grinding wasn't so clear cut. But either way, grinding really never bothered me a ton. Korean grinders do tend to get old though when each game looks/feels exactly like the last.
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Haha i'm the same way, thats one thing I loved about FFXI, I know it sometimes took 20 minutes to find a party, but once you got in the groove it was like sex.
Anyways.. yeah its fun.
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Yeah I can see where you are coming from.
But for me its more rewarding, if i've spent the last week grinding and I finally get that level, I feel way more acomplished.
To me I feel almost cheated, I'm on WoW and I do 3 - 4 quest and even in later levels (75-80) you can do a level a day. To me that is not rewarding.
but that is my opinion.
Please check out my channel. I do gaming reviews, gaming related reviews & lets plays. Thanks!
https://www.youtube.com/user/BettyofDewm/videos
I actually prefered leveling in L2 over leveling in the current Questing MMO Flavor. You could visit dungeons, fight mobs, and fight raid bosses any time of day. You just had to know what to fight, when, and where. If you could understand that, you could level very fast. I could get to 40-50 on L2 faster than I could on WoW because my pace isn't limited by the pace of Questing. A "twink" in L2 can level faster than a "twink" in WoW...and their making this faster soon lol. After 50, however, L2 began to get a bit slower. I feel like questing should be reserved for tangible prizes and not for experience.
I'm not sure what SWG is like now, but before the missions were fine, you got experience for exploration (and there was a lot to explore), and leveling was pretty fast regardless.
Just hitting monsters is just as "mindless" as following quest guides and quest guide add-ons, but knowing what to fight and how to fight for "mindless killing" takes more brain power than following waypoints. It is, however, harder to bot a quest system than it is to bot just killing things.
They should make it viable to just kill things to level even if it's a questing mmo or make it more viable the more contributors that are involved so you can get that community and friendship back.
But to answer the OPs question, MMOs have only been pretty big for half a generation. You'll see older flavors (because there were many) return once the current flavor (because there's not many) is exhausted. People are attracted to different things by nature...it just has to work when they play it.
I enjoy questless grinding, both solo and in a group. I especially enjoy it if it's easy to get a spot in a random group and the mobs aren't heavily contested to the point where kill stealing, training, and ganking are a problem. It's challenging as well as fun if the mobs are quite a bit higher level so that the team needs good healing, pulling, and tanking skills.
Even though Guild Wars 2 isn't going to have the trinity, if there are spots to grind higher level mobs as a team, I guarantee people will take on these roles to some extent, which is fine by me. It's nice not to be locked into them, though. As for the other requirements, the way GW2 is setting up loot and grouping, it sounds like leveling in open world could be quite a bit of fun.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
But that is because the design the game like that. They want you to do quest and give you great rewards for it. Because they know if you feel rewarded you will like it more. They dont want you to level killing random mobs for xp. And they give you terrible xp for the mob kills to make you feel its a waste of time.
With better rewards, item drops and great xp, killing mobs would be less boring. And if it was faster progress and levelling compared to doing quests some players would prefer it and do it. Of course if they punish people that prefer that playstyle with no good item drops and very slow levelling almost no one will do it...
This is a choice the developers made. But there is no reason it must work like that.
Why can't there be a game with problem solving and critical thinking without the grind?
Very good post. That's exactly it.
There isn't 1 correct way to make an mmo. There's just only 1 mmo with the most subscribers ever...and there can be only 1 mmo with the most subscribers ever, whether it's the same one or a different one.
@Kartool
It's always going to feel like a grind to someone because once leveling is faster, you'll want it faster...and faster... until where's the point of even having progression? People spend to much time thinking about the "Final Level" and they should realize a good mmo lets you enjoy progression or participate in "End Game" from the begginning in small ways and large ways at the end.
when I was younger, I actually enjoyed griding. But now, when my free time is getting shorter, I look for games with as less griding as posible. That's why I love gw.
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What gives the sense of accomplishment is the game's progression system, not the fact that it was grindy. A good progression system is probably the single most important feature in hooking players and keeping them playing. It's what allows players to put up with what we have come to call the "grind." When we speak of a grind, we speak of enduring hours of boring gameplay in the name of eventually advancing in some significant way. The satisfaction that comes with this eventual advancement outweighs the pains of enduring the grind. When we speak of our desire to eliminate the grind as much as possible, it's that boring gameplay we aim to eliminate, not the compelling progression. (Note that "we" here is an arbitrary pronoun used mostly for the sake of smooth sentence structure.)
Imagine this: a game that provides that sense of accomplishment you enjoy (and it can still take you 3 years to cap), where the act of working toward those accomplishments is in itself extremely fun!
Yes, but when everyone only cares about "End Game", any amount of progression style falls to a low priority so that it's all a grind until you get to the "end".
In previous mmos, you could participate in many of the "End" in some fashion be it small...and eventually realize how much larger a contribution to that "End" you made.
I like grinding, and i think its necessary.
people always bring up "oh yeah remember reading the book where the hero grinds" example, but i will bring it up a different way. So how many people picked up a bat and because a world class baseball player. or how about that world champion boxer that won the first time he put on gloves. and every cop and fireman knew exactly what to do form day one with out any kinda training or practice. i could keep going but the point remains, yes they dont put the part in books where the hero gains his skills and focus more on the action, but thats not to say that every character was that good just from choosing their skill or profession.
it is true that grinding get alittle mundane but i have made more friends looking for groups than running random dungeons because in the later people are anonymous act like jerks and disconnet at the slighest hint of trouble. but i have friends made from spending those hours grinding, chatting, raiding, heck even fishing/drinking.
Grinding is fine when levels are not involved.
Take a game like UO for example; you didn't grind mobs in dungeons to gain skills (for the most part). You usually did so to earn magic weapons and items to use/sell - but more importantly you earned gold which then help fund your characters and housing. It was something you could do casually and only when needed and sometimes not even necessary depending on other methods used to gain the same items (PvP, PKing, Scaming, trading, crafting, etc.).
Grinding when levels are involved is a different story. As in level based games, grinding is usually done in specific leveling zones with the main goal to simply earn you XP until you level up. Once you level up, you move on and never come back once you've out leveled the zone. Items/gold are usually just a byproduct. That or you grind for some specific piece of gear at high levels.
I'm more of a supporter of skill-based, open world games. Mob grinding in these environments tend to be a way for players to make money, but usually are not the only way. Darkfall grinding, EVE grinding (albeit boring due to the combat mechanics), and UO grinding varied differently from Lineage 2, WoW (although there wasn't much grinding even in the pre WotLK era unless you count dungeon farming grinding, which it really is), and FF. The former examples were more about wealth acquisition while the latter were more about character advancement in hopes of reaching the max level ASAP.
The preference for which is better based on the player's personal taste, but I always liked grinding in non-level based games as the point of grinding wasn't so clear cut. But either way, grinding really never bothered me a ton. Korean grinders do tend to get old though when each game looks/feels exactly like the last.