This is why I'm happy with my 6-year old NWN 1 Server. All my players are pretty much mature. Because all the kiddies need the whiz-bang choke-my-system graphics and pvp. We do just fine with my 'back than' server No credit card required.
Cool a dragonlance super-mod. When NWN1 first came out I bought it and played on a dragonlance server, heck it could have been you running it. I was roleplaying a Kender, found another player who knew what to expect of Kender, and he didn't get too angry when his stuff accidentally ended up in my possession; I kept handing his stuff back to him he dropped on the ground, he was very careless.
I got killed and nobody rezzed me. Stuck around for 30 minutes waiting for a rez, I'm not very familiar with how things worked in NWN though. Eventually I lost my key for game.
LOL I use to roleplay kender too, they were made for roleplay...
( innocent look ) This jewel? Oh it looked very heavy I was just carrying it for you...
Actually, memories are always better than reality (was).
Our brain tricks us... And also, we tend to remember the "main events" only, i.e. the "memorable" ones (obvious eh?). So we forget about all the boring aspects (the grind, the 30 minutes walk without anything happening when we are going to the shop, the days of study/being broke when we were at Uni). So we forget about all the annoying people, only remembering the interesting ones and thinking "eh that was great back then".
Plus we just grow as individuals, "outgrow" our past if you want, so what seemed fine/good back is not really now.
Fond memories...
EDIT: someone raised the point of microcommunities, and it is true though that microcommunities are generally overall nicer as each individual tend to feel as an "identifiable part of the community", almost as a citizen with responsibilities (limited number of players due to early days of MMOs, guild, etc.).
People back then, and I still am, were/are still huge assholes. I remember one guy who entered Dunes and had no idea why he should use a Provoke macro (think 15 seconds CD on Provoke, macro would tick in at 5 seconds to tell you your provoke is almost ready) and kept losing hate on mobs. We told him straight up to start using one, told him how to make it, and if he doesn't do it he'll get booted; he got booted shortly after.
The reason why MMOs back then had a "better community" was because they were less stream-lined. They weren't user-friendly, they were piss poorly designed, and targeted only a very specific audience; everyone outside that audience either had to fit in, or get the fuck out.
From a design perspective, this is and was stupid. As an investor and a software developer now, 10 years later, I can see why Google, World of Warcraft, and Facebook is beating the literal shit out of everything around them and why people like you, hate it, but will still use, and play them.
So, this topic is right: people weren't better back then, we were just ALL assholes together not realizing it lol
the majority of people will always be cunts, i don't think it should come as a surprise..any form of gain, and of any type, can trigger greed, envy, offensiveness.. had, has and will be happening..human nature. So while your post has a strong point, i can't help noticing how you neglected to take account of something very, very important
we fuss about loot, we kill for loot, we plot and legally work our ways around obstacles for loot..so as long as the product you are enjoying leads you towards this element, GREED, is it a surprise this all happens? Take Lotro, why is it mostly everyone says it has the best player base, behaviour-wise? Because there is almost nothing one cannot get on one's own..without competing, and because one may say "raids! raids! you are wrong", i tell you in advance that the crafting guild recipes are good enough for one to say ok, you know what? i don't HAVE to raid in this mtf..i can just be ;p
As long as people whine about classes, specs, and worst of all gear, and not about independence in MMOS, this will only get worse.
Note: MMOs are not about co-op, NO. They are about escapism, living in a universe with other living players, maybe with, maybe against them. An MMO should never have been defined by the loot frenzied morons struggling to find imba groups to down bosses with. For loot. That's your source, right there. It was the easy way to go, so companies took it.
I am sorry but those of us who were older also remember how for instance my mum was told that being female she had better stay at home and cook instead of going to school because her brothers who were getting shit results compared to her would get jobs nevertheless. I recall she had no choices in her life. So I would trade some man holding a door open for her to my freedom of choice.
I am not young am half a century old and I was brought up with the cane. Everything was a whack or a punch and I have not brought up my children like that. Granted my kids do talk back to me but at least I can have a discussion with them compared to the way dad treated my opinions.
It is true we all think our generation was better and every generation bemoans its young.
However the current state of games and the lack of social aspects do directly relate to the way communications have advanced. You can enjoy the same discussions you used to while waiting for the magi to spawn in Guk if you use vent. Yes people use voice now and you can still talk to people. I know that many of you are resistant to it because of immersion but talking is just that like typing it is communicating. I have belonged to several guilds and done groups using vent and I have enjoyed the company .Yes just like typing there are annoying people but see past your prejudices and try it. You can have the same level of friendship using voice communication.
I played Everquest and yes I too have often wondered what has happened to communities in games but over the years I adapted. I realised that I was being rigid and expecting things not to change but once I embraced the new forms of communications I too found I could have really great conversations once I got over the squeeky voice of the female playing the large barbarian. Or the annoying nasal tones that accompanied a frequent throat clearing of a baritone in the body of very petite elven chick. Yes not very immersive but I got to know the person inside plus all the maladies. Okay that I could do without but you get my drift.
We are not adapting very well and we just want to insist that our present younger generation is irredeemable. Or have we forgotten the 60's, its flower generation and rampant drug culture and various other stupidities that went on.
I don't know if it's just the crowd at MMORPG.com or just older people in general who think that the "old days" of mmorpgs were the golden days. As someone who's played over the last 12 years I have not seen any noticeable difference in the quality of players.
Am I blind?
No, but I did take off the rose colored glasses. Back in EQ1 there were hardcore raiders, asshats, anti social jack wagons and so forth. Are there "more" today? Well sure and there are more players too. DAoC's pvp system was not perfect and had a nasty cheat that the "pro" guilds used, but never admitted to till much later and UO was terrible to new players. Were they bad games ... no, but they were not some bastion of awesome like some portray.
A lot of the rant posts I see are people who pretend to be "enlightened". You're not enlightened if you're still railing on ADD kids and having no open world pvp.... you just miss certain aspects of previous games and are trying to tie in changes in the genre to some overall hatred of some meaningless stereotype.
There's no great difference in people over the last 10-12 years. You're just noticing the bad ones more as you grow older.
/off my personal soapbox
As an old schooler....Sure, there were asshats back in the days of EQ, and sure, there are more now than there was due to the main streaming of MMO's (Which I am personally not happy about). The difference between now and then is that back then when asshats reared there ignorant heads the community usually put them in check via blacklisting or scolding them until they either shaped up or moved on to another server to try being a Dbag there.
Now when someone acts like a dbag, most of the server community encourages it further or joins in. And anyone who dares speak up about their ignorance gets flamed to high hell. Not always, but definitely a lot of the time....sadly.
From the very start of UO you had your griefer and rude people, it was not a happy carebear get along.
I was one of those, but even as a PK'er we had a sense of morality and knew when and where to draw the lines.
I PK'd people but I did it with style and grace, my guild took over the orc camp, dressed, spoke, and roll played as orcs. However we also made crafting and trade alliances with " good " guilds around us to provide us the daily necessities we needed for our lives as orcs.
My idea of rude was locking 27 long boats end to end across trinsic harbor, standing on the middle boat and charging people a fee to sail past my " Naval Blockade " of the city.
On Xmas eve all the loot we had amassed as PK's we put in 10k + colorful little bags and paved every inch of the streets of Trinsic with it so when people logged on Xmas morning there were little surprise presents for everyone.
We were a whole different level of " rude ".
Sounds like you were with Shadowclan, I rolled with them in DAOC (as Kobolds) on the FFA Mordred server and while we were Rping pkers, we had a very established set of rules, and abided and enforced them. (such as if we demanded tribute and paid it, you were actually free to move on without harm, we also did not permit gray killing except of declared clan enemies)
Also one day we put up a 10 Plat bounty (was a lot back in the day) and told the server that we were going to start marching from one end of the realm to the other end and any guild that managed to stop us could have the prize. We fought valiantly,and lasted quite a while before the guild Torcan took us down. We paid the bounty.
Point is, while we were PKer's, we had style and were well respected (and I'm sure sometimes hated) for the way we played.
I doubt you'll find anything like that in any modern MMO (perhaps EVE still has some remenants) and as some folks mentioned, its not really so much because the players were all that much better (though I think they were a step up from today's crowd) but the game's design encouraged players to cooperate and work together and not make life miserable for other folks.
OP may believe differently, others may accuse me of wearing rose colored nostalgia glasses, but I feel the communities in the early MMO's that I played such as Lineage 1/2, DAOC and even Shadowbane were better than those I find in today's MMO's.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I don't know if it's just the crowd at MMORPG.com or just older people in general who think that the "old days" of mmorpgs were the golden days. As someone who's played over the last 12 years I have not seen any noticeable difference in the quality of players.
Am I blind?
No, but I did take off the rose colored glasses. Back in EQ1 there were hardcore raiders, asshats, anti social jack wagons and so forth. Are there "more" today? Well sure and there are more players too. DAoC's pvp system was not perfect and had a nasty cheat that the "pro" guilds used, but never admitted to till much later and UO was terrible to new players. Were they bad games ... no, but they were not some bastion of awesome like some portray.
A lot of the rant posts I see are people who pretend to be "enlightened". You're not enlightened if you're still railing on ADD kids and having no open world pvp.... you just miss certain aspects of previous games and are trying to tie in changes in the genre to some overall hatred of some meaningless stereotype.
There's no great difference in people over the last 10-12 years. You're just noticing the bad ones more as you grow older.
/off my personal soapbox
I disagree. Not to say that there werent' always asshats - there were ALWAYS asshats.
The thing is that as MMOs have become easier to play and more popular, it's resulted in more players than ever. More players = more idiots.
"back in the day", these games were played by people who were (for lack of better terms) either computer geeks or your common-variety comic/fantasy/sci-fi geeks. Additionally, due to technology, "back in the day", one needed a certain amount of brains - not only to find the game, btu to learn to play it. Figuring out how to play EQ1 or AO was an adventure in itself and acted as a gate for filtering out the really stupid people. And i just mean the highest level of stupidity here, since it didn't take THAT much brains to play a game. But still, it was a lot more than it takes today.
So, 3 things - there were a few less stupid people and there were a lot more people that had stuff in common - i.e. being compter or just regular geeks.
Now that even a total idiot can play an MMO - many do. Now that the audience for MMOs has expanded to mass proportions, there are a lot more "different" people playing the games. And the thing about different people is that often they don't like each other. Especially when they're stupid (see point 1).
So yeah, it was better in the "old days". But the old days are gone, so no point in complaining. I still think that if there was an IQ test, combined with a mandatory in-character application at the start of an MMO, you'd end up with a lot better people. Would there still be asshats? Absolutely! Intelligence doesn't guarantee personality. But i'm sure it woudl be a good start
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
In the "old days" mmorpgs were only for very limited groups of people with lots and lots of time on their hands and whithout a social network in real life - at least time-demanding network.
Now mmorpgs are for everyone.
Communities built from people who spend all their time developing in-game relationships - their often only relationships - are more tight and provide better social interaction than communities built from people who log in two times a week, who have full-time jobs, families, children, real-life (demanding) social networks and very limited time for any interaction, much less relationships' development? Stop the presses!
LOL at you talking about new MMORPGs developing in-game relationships when NPCs are replacing PCs for party rosters.
What part of MMORPG do you not understand?
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
Originally posted by Goatgod76 Originally posted by Angier2758 I don't know if it's just the crowd at MMORPG.com or just older people in general who think that the "old days" of mmorpgs were the golden days. As someone who's played over the last 12 years I have not seen any noticeable difference in the quality of players. Am I blind? No, but I did take off the rose colored glasses. Back in EQ1 there were hardcore raiders, asshats, anti social jack wagons and so forth. Are there "more" today? Well sure and there are more players too. DAoC's pvp system was not perfect and had a nasty cheat that the "pro" guilds used, but never admitted to till much later and UO was terrible to new players. Were they bad games ... no, but they were not some bastion of awesome like some portray. A lot of the rant posts I see are people who pretend to be "enlightened". You're not enlightened if you're still railing on ADD kids and having no open world pvp.... you just miss certain aspects of previous games and are trying to tie in changes in the genre to some overall hatred of some meaningless stereotype. There's no great difference in people over the last 10-12 years. You're just noticing the bad ones more as you grow older. /off my personal soapbox
As an old schooler....Sure, there were asshats back in the days of EQ, and sure, there are more now than there was due to the main streaming of MMO's (Which I am personally not happy about). The difference between now and then is that back then when asshats reared there ignorant heads the community usually put them in check via blacklisting or scolding them until they either shaped up or moved on to another server to try being a Dbag there.
Now when someone acts like a dbag, most of the server community encourages it further or joins in. And anyone who dares speak up about their ignorance gets flamed to high hell. Not always, but definitely a lot of the time....sadly.
Exactly. There used to be a minimum threshold for asshattery. Now, the sky is the limit.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
The older games seemed like they had better communities simply because cooperation was encouraged and oftentimes necessary to succeed in the game. In EQ, most classes HAD to group to succeed, no real choice. In DAoC, if you didn't travel in packs in RVR you were fodder. In UO, players built towns that encouraged socialization.
Nowadays, games are all about soloing in an MMO world, or cross-server dungeon queues where you are grouped up with faceless people you will never see again. Why should I care to help someone when I'm busy doing my solo quests? Why do I care what the faceless people in my dungeon PUG think of me?
If old games were designed like this, I'm sure it would seem like the community sucked there as well.
I'm not saying that we should go back to the old ways, they had problems of their own. I AM saying that many concepts in newer MMORPGs actively discourage community.
The difference between now and then is that back then when asshats reared there ignorant heads the community usually put them in check via blacklisting or scolding them until they either shaped up or moved on to another server to try being a Dbag there.
I remember in DAoC that when a level 50 showed up griefing level 20s trying to quest outside the realm gates. there would soon be a message on guild/alliance/region and he would literally get massacred until people couldn't find him anymore. Also many people would offer to hide in the vicinity for a while to protect their realm mates in case he came back. Even so, when a few equal levels showed up to fight our weaker countrymen, many would refrain from getting involved in a fair fight.
And with such people playing, I almost find it hard to call it griefing when people repeatedly attacked beginners at the gate. If you have a realm of players looking out for one another, bastards doesn't have to be griefers. If a douche gets hunted and killed before you start losing love for the game, he becomes part of the story in a better way. It teaches players animosity towards the enemy faction, gratefulness towards the own faction, and inspires people to protect the next generation.
If you are griefed repeatedly in the beginner zones to the point of it destrying the game for you, I think a person will be much more likely to be raised another bastard who starts hunting beginners as soon as he hits max level, and he won't feel passion for protecting his realm mates.
In the end I think that good players will generate good players, and bad players will generate bad players. I do think that the players were "better" before in general, but I don't know whether to blame years of griefing for the growing population of bastards... or if the game mechanics have changed in a way that produces them.
>>I AM saying that many concepts in newer MMORPGs actively discourage community.<<
They don't force it upon you. You still can be a member of a community, waste your time trying to play only with selected group instead of random set, etc. You just don't have to.
I will not play a game that will force me to actually waste countless hours on fitting in a community. There are more people like me than people like you. Ergo, cater to us or be broke.
>>I AM saying that many concepts in newer MMORPGs actively discourage community.<<
They don't force it upon you. You still can be a member of a community, waste your time trying to play only with selected group instead of random set, etc. You just don't have to.
I will not play a game that will force me to actually waste countless hours on fitting in a community. There are more people like me than people like you. Ergo, cater to us or be broke.
Ergo, modern MMO's are doomed to have poor communities. Case in point here.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
A certain percentage of the population are dicks. If its say, 10% (for easy math) and you have a game population of 100,000 your going to find 10,000 dicks in the game. And, if you have 1,000,000 your going to have 100,000 dicks. The more people that play the more dicks.Its highly possible (almost positive about this) that there is a higher percentage of dicks now than in years past but that im not sure how to guage. Just join a guild, or, jump from one to another if needed and find a group of people you like to be around.
Really? This game sucks and Im not having fun? Im going to unsub right now. Thanks for the tip.
The fact is , for what ever reason (it dont matter) the communitys in games 'back in the day" like Eq etc etc were vastly better than what we have today, no way around it , end of story .
The older games seemed like they had better communities simply because cooperation was encouraged and oftentimes necessary to succeed in the game. In EQ, most classes HAD to group to succeed, no real choice. In DAoC, if you didn't travel in packs in RVR you were fodder. In UO, players built towns that encouraged socialization.
Nowadays, games are all about soloing in an MMO world, or cross-server dungeon queues where you are grouped up with faceless people you will never see again. Why should I care to help someone when I'm busy doing my solo quests? Why do I care what the faceless people in my dungeon PUG think of me?
If old games were designed like this, I'm sure it would seem like the community sucked there as well.
I'm not saying that we should go back to the old ways, they had problems of their own. I AM saying that many concepts in newer MMORPGs actively discourage community.
I don't believe it's just game mechanics impacting how players behave, rather that the mechanics are atttracting players with a different mindset.
Yes, there were still idiots and griefers back in the day, but there were also a lot less of them relative to the total player population. Why? Because the community was able to weed those players out because the game mechanics relying on community cooperation allowed them to effectively blackball trouble makers. In most new MMOs you can solo to max level with ease, and ranndom group/dungeon/raid finders allow problem causing players to get into groups and do content regardless if they treat other players poorly or not, and if they do behave poorly in a group, there's virtually no consequence.
The fact is , for what ever reason (it dont matter) the communitys in games 'back in the day" like Eq etc etc were vastly better than what we have today, no way around it , end of story .
Sure. Any closed and (relatively) small community is always better as community than big open community, for multitude of reasons. But there is no return to that level. You can't have small communities in good games nowaday, though. There are plenty of games with very small, tight, good, friendly communities, but you don't play them. Why? They suck, at least for you, that's why.
So don't go into MMORPGS looking for community! That's now what they are for, now! There is no going back. No tight communities in modern mmorpgs, period!
Unless you artificially tighten that community for yourself. There are always tight, great, close guilds/communities in such games that are as good as they were, you just have to find them and join them. You are unable to find/join them? That's because YOU suck, not because
So don't shake your fist at me - not my fault that you are looking for something that doesn't exist in MMORPGS anymore (or at least is hard to get to) and can't find it.
Better no, but they were more closely tied together.
The MMO community were smaller then and the games were more social then now. Soloing weren't as easy and if you act like an @sshat you would never get that group you needed.
Since the need and greed mechanics hit the MMOs together with more soloing and a lot more instances it went downward fast.
The games do shape the gamers even if the people playing them are the same or not.
The smaller so called "failed" games nowadays have tight communties and are very social.
>>Why? Because the community was able to weed those players out because the game mechanics relying on community cooperation allowed them to effectively blackball trouble makers.<<
Exactly! Tight and closed communities forced on players. I will not play such games anymore, and developers want my money, so they create games where communities are NOT forced on players. And since there are more people like me than there are people like you, that's how it will be forever. Simple! Why can't you just accept it? Modern MMORPGS are not places to find great communities!
The fact is , for what ever reason (it dont matter) the communitys in games 'back in the day" like Eq etc etc were vastly better than what we have today, no way around it , end of story .
Sure. Any closed and (relatively) small community is always better as community than big open community, for multitude of reasons. But there is no return to that level. You can't have small communities in good games nowaday, though. There are plenty of games with very small, tight, good, friendly communities, but you don't play them. Why? They suck, at least for you, that's why.
So don't go into MMORPGS looking for community! That's now what they are for, now! There is no going back. No tight communities in modern mmorpgs, period!
Unless you artificially tighten that community for yourself. There are always tight, great, close guilds/communities in such games that are as good as they were, you just have to find them and join them. You are unable to find/join them? That's because YOU suck, not because
So don't shake your fist at me - not my fault that you are looking for something that doesn't exist in MMORPGS anymore (or at least is hard to get to) and can't find it.
Whats with all the 'you" stuff buddy, nothing you have said has anything even remotely close to do with me, even in generalized context, but thanx anyway for the post hope you feel better after the rant , good day to you .
>>Why? Because the community was able to weed those players out because the game mechanics relying on community cooperation allowed them to effectively blackball trouble makers.<<
Exactly! Tight and closed communities forced on players. I will not play such games anymore, and developers want my money, so they create games where communities are NOT forced on players. And since there are more people like me than there are people like you, that's how it will be forever. Simple! Why can't you just accept it? Modern MMORPGS are not places to find great communities!
You are right, modern mmos really are not places to find decent (let alone great) communties. But why exactly should people "accept it", specifically when they have the opportunity to speak about it in a medium condusive to airing their opinions?
Everyone is perfectly aware of what direction mmos have taken and that the mmo playing demographic has changed. Most are also aware that it is just evolution in the genre and it is going to keep on evolving in ways that they are not necessarily going to be happy about. But why exactly should we "just accept it" when we are debating the pros and cons of said change on a forum, in a thread specifically about it?
PS, I thought people crying about "forced grouping" and "forced pvp" were really rather pathetic, but bemoaning "forced communties" in what are supposed to be multiplayer worlds... really? People will not be happy until other players are fully removed from mmos and replaced by half assed AI and a link to facebook.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
PS, I thought people crying about "forced grouping" and "forced pvp" were really rather pathetic, but bemoaning "forced communties" in what are supposed to be multiplayer worlds... really? People will not be happy until other players are fully removed from mmos and replaced by half assed AI and a link to facebook.
I don't get it either. People want to play MMOs, but they want to do it little to none of the social interaction inherent to MMOs. They don't want to be dependent or interact with other players, and just want to be able to solo through everything on their own terms. Why the hell are they even playing an MMO then? They might as well just play an SPRPG.
Ironically, Diablo 3 will probably be the best "MMO" to date for the current generation of "MMOs", considering it's forced online play, RMAH, and complete solo-ability... it's really getting pathetic on the MMO scence with where things are going.
PS, I thought people crying about "forced grouping" and "forced pvp" were really rather pathetic, but bemoaning "forced communties" in what are supposed to be multiplayer worlds... really? People will not be happy until other players are fully removed from mmos and replaced by half assed AI and a link to facebook.
I don't get it either. People want to play MMOs, but they want to do it little to none of the social interaction inherent to MMOs. They don't want to be dependent or interact with other players, and just want to be able to solo through everything on their own terms. Why the hell are they even playing an MMO then? They might as well just play an SPRPG.
Ironically, Diablo 3 will probably be the best "MMO" to date for the current generation of "MMOs", considering it's forced online play, RMAH, and complete solo-ability... it's really getting pathetic on the MMO scence with where things are going.
Is your wife your wife if she feels forced to be with you? No, just as a community is not a community if it's forced...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Comments
LOL I use to roleplay kender too, they were made for roleplay...
( innocent look ) This jewel? Oh it looked very heavy I was just carrying it for you...
people cry alot more these days and the word nerf back in the early days was used to describe some sort of toy gun
Actually, memories are always better than reality (was).
Our brain tricks us... And also, we tend to remember the "main events" only, i.e. the "memorable" ones (obvious eh?). So we forget about all the boring aspects (the grind, the 30 minutes walk without anything happening when we are going to the shop, the days of study/being broke when we were at Uni). So we forget about all the annoying people, only remembering the interesting ones and thinking "eh that was great back then".
Plus we just grow as individuals, "outgrow" our past if you want, so what seemed fine/good back is not really now.
Fond memories...
EDIT: someone raised the point of microcommunities, and it is true though that microcommunities are generally overall nicer as each individual tend to feel as an "identifiable part of the community", almost as a citizen with responsibilities (limited number of players due to early days of MMOs, guild, etc.).
lol does anyone remember Final Fantasy XI?
People back then, and I still am, were/are still huge assholes. I remember one guy who entered Dunes and had no idea why he should use a Provoke macro (think 15 seconds CD on Provoke, macro would tick in at 5 seconds to tell you your provoke is almost ready) and kept losing hate on mobs. We told him straight up to start using one, told him how to make it, and if he doesn't do it he'll get booted; he got booted shortly after.
The reason why MMOs back then had a "better community" was because they were less stream-lined. They weren't user-friendly, they were piss poorly designed, and targeted only a very specific audience; everyone outside that audience either had to fit in, or get the fuck out.
From a design perspective, this is and was stupid. As an investor and a software developer now, 10 years later, I can see why Google, World of Warcraft, and Facebook is beating the literal shit out of everything around them and why people like you, hate it, but will still use, and play them.
So, this topic is right: people weren't better back then, we were just ALL assholes together not realizing it lol
the majority of people will always be cunts, i don't think it should come as a surprise..any form of gain, and of any type, can trigger greed, envy, offensiveness.. had, has and will be happening..human nature. So while your post has a strong point, i can't help noticing how you neglected to take account of something very, very important
we fuss about loot, we kill for loot, we plot and legally work our ways around obstacles for loot..so as long as the product you are enjoying leads you towards this element, GREED, is it a surprise this all happens? Take Lotro, why is it mostly everyone says it has the best player base, behaviour-wise? Because there is almost nothing one cannot get on one's own..without competing, and because one may say "raids! raids! you are wrong", i tell you in advance that the crafting guild recipes are good enough for one to say ok, you know what? i don't HAVE to raid in this mtf..i can just be ;p
As long as people whine about classes, specs, and worst of all gear, and not about independence in MMOS, this will only get worse.
Note: MMOs are not about co-op, NO. They are about escapism, living in a universe with other living players, maybe with, maybe against them. An MMO should never have been defined by the loot frenzied morons struggling to find imba groups to down bosses with. For loot. That's your source, right there. It was the easy way to go, so companies took it.
I am sorry but those of us who were older also remember how for instance my mum was told that being female she had better stay at home and cook instead of going to school because her brothers who were getting shit results compared to her would get jobs nevertheless. I recall she had no choices in her life. So I would trade some man holding a door open for her to my freedom of choice.
I am not young am half a century old and I was brought up with the cane. Everything was a whack or a punch and I have not brought up my children like that. Granted my kids do talk back to me but at least I can have a discussion with them compared to the way dad treated my opinions.
It is true we all think our generation was better and every generation bemoans its young.
However the current state of games and the lack of social aspects do directly relate to the way communications have advanced. You can enjoy the same discussions you used to while waiting for the magi to spawn in Guk if you use vent. Yes people use voice now and you can still talk to people. I know that many of you are resistant to it because of immersion but talking is just that like typing it is communicating. I have belonged to several guilds and done groups using vent and I have enjoyed the company .Yes just like typing there are annoying people but see past your prejudices and try it. You can have the same level of friendship using voice communication.
I played Everquest and yes I too have often wondered what has happened to communities in games but over the years I adapted. I realised that I was being rigid and expecting things not to change but once I embraced the new forms of communications I too found I could have really great conversations once I got over the squeeky voice of the female playing the large barbarian. Or the annoying nasal tones that accompanied a frequent throat clearing of a baritone in the body of very petite elven chick. Yes not very immersive but I got to know the person inside plus all the maladies. Okay that I could do without but you get my drift.
We are not adapting very well and we just want to insist that our present younger generation is irredeemable. Or have we forgotten the 60's, its flower generation and rampant drug culture and various other stupidities that went on.
As an old schooler....Sure, there were asshats back in the days of EQ, and sure, there are more now than there was due to the main streaming of MMO's (Which I am personally not happy about). The difference between now and then is that back then when asshats reared there ignorant heads the community usually put them in check via blacklisting or scolding them until they either shaped up or moved on to another server to try being a Dbag there.
Now when someone acts like a dbag, most of the server community encourages it further or joins in. And anyone who dares speak up about their ignorance gets flamed to high hell. Not always, but definitely a lot of the time....sadly.
Sounds like you were with Shadowclan, I rolled with them in DAOC (as Kobolds) on the FFA Mordred server and while we were Rping pkers, we had a very established set of rules, and abided and enforced them. (such as if we demanded tribute and paid it, you were actually free to move on without harm, we also did not permit gray killing except of declared clan enemies)
Also one day we put up a 10 Plat bounty (was a lot back in the day) and told the server that we were going to start marching from one end of the realm to the other end and any guild that managed to stop us could have the prize. We fought valiantly,and lasted quite a while before the guild Torcan took us down. We paid the bounty.
Point is, while we were PKer's, we had style and were well respected (and I'm sure sometimes hated) for the way we played.
I doubt you'll find anything like that in any modern MMO (perhaps EVE still has some remenants) and as some folks mentioned, its not really so much because the players were all that much better (though I think they were a step up from today's crowd) but the game's design encouraged players to cooperate and work together and not make life miserable for other folks.
OP may believe differently, others may accuse me of wearing rose colored nostalgia glasses, but I feel the communities in the early MMO's that I played such as Lineage 1/2, DAOC and even Shadowbane were better than those I find in today's MMO's.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I disagree. Not to say that there werent' always asshats - there were ALWAYS asshats.
The thing is that as MMOs have become easier to play and more popular, it's resulted in more players than ever. More players = more idiots.
"back in the day", these games were played by people who were (for lack of better terms) either computer geeks or your common-variety comic/fantasy/sci-fi geeks. Additionally, due to technology, "back in the day", one needed a certain amount of brains - not only to find the game, btu to learn to play it. Figuring out how to play EQ1 or AO was an adventure in itself and acted as a gate for filtering out the really stupid people. And i just mean the highest level of stupidity here, since it didn't take THAT much brains to play a game. But still, it was a lot more than it takes today.
So, 3 things - there were a few less stupid people and there were a lot more people that had stuff in common - i.e. being compter or just regular geeks.
Now that even a total idiot can play an MMO - many do. Now that the audience for MMOs has expanded to mass proportions, there are a lot more "different" people playing the games. And the thing about different people is that often they don't like each other. Especially when they're stupid (see point 1).
So yeah, it was better in the "old days". But the old days are gone, so no point in complaining. I still think that if there was an IQ test, combined with a mandatory in-character application at the start of an MMO, you'd end up with a lot better people. Would there still be asshats? Absolutely! Intelligence doesn't guarantee personality. But i'm sure it woudl be a good start
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
LOL at you talking about new MMORPGs developing in-game relationships when NPCs are replacing PCs for party rosters.
What part of MMORPG do you not understand?
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
Now when someone acts like a dbag, most of the server community encourages it further or joins in. And anyone who dares speak up about their ignorance gets flamed to high hell. Not always, but definitely a lot of the time....sadly.
Exactly. There used to be a minimum threshold for asshattery. Now, the sky is the limit.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Exactly.
The older games seemed like they had better communities simply because cooperation was encouraged and oftentimes necessary to succeed in the game. In EQ, most classes HAD to group to succeed, no real choice. In DAoC, if you didn't travel in packs in RVR you were fodder. In UO, players built towns that encouraged socialization.
Nowadays, games are all about soloing in an MMO world, or cross-server dungeon queues where you are grouped up with faceless people you will never see again. Why should I care to help someone when I'm busy doing my solo quests? Why do I care what the faceless people in my dungeon PUG think of me?
If old games were designed like this, I'm sure it would seem like the community sucked there as well.
I'm not saying that we should go back to the old ways, they had problems of their own. I AM saying that many concepts in newer MMORPGs actively discourage community.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
I remember in DAoC that when a level 50 showed up griefing level 20s trying to quest outside the realm gates. there would soon be a message on guild/alliance/region and he would literally get massacred until people couldn't find him anymore. Also many people would offer to hide in the vicinity for a while to protect their realm mates in case he came back. Even so, when a few equal levels showed up to fight our weaker countrymen, many would refrain from getting involved in a fair fight.
And with such people playing, I almost find it hard to call it griefing when people repeatedly attacked beginners at the gate. If you have a realm of players looking out for one another, bastards doesn't have to be griefers. If a douche gets hunted and killed before you start losing love for the game, he becomes part of the story in a better way. It teaches players animosity towards the enemy faction, gratefulness towards the own faction, and inspires people to protect the next generation.
If you are griefed repeatedly in the beginner zones to the point of it destrying the game for you, I think a person will be much more likely to be raised another bastard who starts hunting beginners as soon as he hits max level, and he won't feel passion for protecting his realm mates.
In the end I think that good players will generate good players, and bad players will generate bad players. I do think that the players were "better" before in general, but I don't know whether to blame years of griefing for the growing population of bastards... or if the game mechanics have changed in a way that produces them.
>>I AM saying that many concepts in newer MMORPGs actively discourage community.<<
They don't force it upon you. You still can be a member of a community, waste your time trying to play only with selected group instead of random set, etc. You just don't have to.
I will not play a game that will force me to actually waste countless hours on fitting in a community. There are more people like me than people like you. Ergo, cater to us or be broke.
Ergo, modern MMO's are doomed to have poor communities. Case in point here.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
A certain percentage of the population are dicks. If its say, 10% (for easy math) and you have a game population of 100,000 your going to find 10,000 dicks in the game. And, if you have 1,000,000 your going to have 100,000 dicks. The more people that play the more dicks.Its highly possible (almost positive about this) that there is a higher percentage of dicks now than in years past but that im not sure how to guage. Just join a guild, or, jump from one to another if needed and find a group of people you like to be around.
Really? This game sucks and Im not having fun? Im going to unsub right now. Thanks for the tip.
The fact is , for what ever reason (it dont matter) the communitys in games 'back in the day" like Eq etc etc were vastly better than what we have today, no way around it , end of story .
I don't believe it's just game mechanics impacting how players behave, rather that the mechanics are atttracting players with a different mindset.
Yes, there were still idiots and griefers back in the day, but there were also a lot less of them relative to the total player population. Why? Because the community was able to weed those players out because the game mechanics relying on community cooperation allowed them to effectively blackball trouble makers. In most new MMOs you can solo to max level with ease, and ranndom group/dungeon/raid finders allow problem causing players to get into groups and do content regardless if they treat other players poorly or not, and if they do behave poorly in a group, there's virtually no consequence.
Sure. Any closed and (relatively) small community is always better as community than big open community, for multitude of reasons. But there is no return to that level. You can't have small communities in good games nowaday, though. There are plenty of games with very small, tight, good, friendly communities, but you don't play them. Why? They suck, at least for you, that's why.
So don't go into MMORPGS looking for community! That's now what they are for, now! There is no going back. No tight communities in modern mmorpgs, period!
Unless you artificially tighten that community for yourself. There are always tight, great, close guilds/communities in such games that are as good as they were, you just have to find them and join them. You are unable to find/join them? That's because YOU suck, not because
So don't shake your fist at me - not my fault that you are looking for something that doesn't exist in MMORPGS anymore (or at least is hard to get to) and can't find it.
The smaller so called "failed" games nowadays have tight communties and are very social.
>>Why? Because the community was able to weed those players out because the game mechanics relying on community cooperation allowed them to effectively blackball trouble makers.<<
Exactly! Tight and closed communities forced on players. I will not play such games anymore, and developers want my money, so they create games where communities are NOT forced on players. And since there are more people like me than there are people like you, that's how it will be forever. Simple! Why can't you just accept it? Modern MMORPGS are not places to find great communities!
Whats with all the 'you" stuff buddy, nothing you have said has anything even remotely close to do with me, even in generalized context, but thanx anyway for the post hope you feel better after the rant , good day to you .
You are right, modern mmos really are not places to find decent (let alone great) communties. But why exactly should people "accept it", specifically when they have the opportunity to speak about it in a medium condusive to airing their opinions?
Everyone is perfectly aware of what direction mmos have taken and that the mmo playing demographic has changed. Most are also aware that it is just evolution in the genre and it is going to keep on evolving in ways that they are not necessarily going to be happy about. But why exactly should we "just accept it" when we are debating the pros and cons of said change on a forum, in a thread specifically about it?
PS, I thought people crying about "forced grouping" and "forced pvp" were really rather pathetic, but bemoaning "forced communties" in what are supposed to be multiplayer worlds... really? People will not be happy until other players are fully removed from mmos and replaced by half assed AI and a link to facebook.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
I don't get it either. People want to play MMOs, but they want to do it little to none of the social interaction inherent to MMOs. They don't want to be dependent or interact with other players, and just want to be able to solo through everything on their own terms. Why the hell are they even playing an MMO then? They might as well just play an SPRPG.
Ironically, Diablo 3 will probably be the best "MMO" to date for the current generation of "MMOs", considering it's forced online play, RMAH, and complete solo-ability... it's really getting pathetic on the MMO scence with where things are going.
Is your wife your wife if she feels forced to be with you? No, just as a community is not a community if it's forced...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson