IThere's a fine line between simple player killing as part of the game, and griefing because you enjoy causing others pain. Obviously some folks don't realize it
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Lol I am watching the new E3 Neverwinter MMO trailer right now. Weird coincidence.
Don't even compare that piece of rubbish Cryptics is doing to NWN1. There won't be the 'world building' aspect that NWN1 had. As far as I have seen it will just be another tired attempt to play on a sucessful franchise. Cryptic's doing it, that should give you a clue. Atari flogged them off to Perfect World International less than 3 years after they bought them. We see Cryptics attitude towards quality with the farce that was Star Trek Online.
You want to re-energize the community, make Neverwinter a 'build your own world from square one' game like NWN1 was (with areas. placeables, terrain, scripting, community expansion,Linux server hosting,MySQL Database tie-in etc) but using modern 3D technology and they will have a winner.
They are bound to fail with a sad attempt at anything else. You can't stick in a few 'user controlable items' and call it Neverwinter. From what I have seen so far, they WILL NOT be getting my money.
>>You are only seeing things in the terms of the physical, there are many ways to harm an individual, and they can be far more terrible than any physical pain.<<
No! No! If you are playing the damn game, you can't be harmed by the death of your toon worse than physically. You die in pve all the time! And if you ARE hurt that badly, don't play the game which allow non-consetual pvp - they have warnings on their boxes, you know. This is ridiculous. This is worse than ridiculous. I don't even know how to call it.
Worst case consequence: you stop playing the damn game. Oh noes! Your life is ruined! Why, may be you'll even stop playing games whatsoever and will do something useful with your time. Can't have it, can we!
Yes, you entirely missed the point. We are talking about how important "bast****" prevention is from games as they detract from the overall experience. Games that allow for griefers and complete idiots that go unpunished will never succeed in creating a stable and healthy gaming environment.
MMORPGS aren't exciting or as fun as they used to be because there's no risk in them.
In fact a lot of them you can win just by spending cash on them.
How is that fun? You spend $100-$200 and you've just beat the game (I'm sure it's much more many than this so please don't feel the need to correct me because it's just being used as an example).
I want to feel frustrated because I lost my hard earned items from being killed by open worlded PvP.
You know why?
Because then when I work hard to earn everything back the feeling of acomplishment would be 100% times more.
I know at the time it happens it's not fun and you wish it hadn't happened.
You wouldn't actually be saying that you wanted this to happen all along and neither would I. I think you know what I'm getting at though.
That feeling that you can do anything and get anything with hard enough work and dedication.
He's not talking about risk. There can be a whole lot of that without griefing and within a game's established rules. What he is suggesting is that MMO's should allow for more assh**** which is simply an immature and unfounded idea.
Lol I am watching the new E3 Neverwinter MMO trailer right now. Weird coincidence.
Don't even compare that piece of rubbish Cryptics is doing to NWN1.
I just heard about the MMO so I was watching the trailer.
On topic:
Actually, I remember that in one free to play game I played back in the day that was kill and loot the pk areas were actually better than the non-pk ones.
People were more well-behaved if they knew you could kill them and take all their shiny gold pieces. Like, in the non-pk areas players would harrass you and "steal" mobs while cussing you out. In the pk area players had two choices: if you were weak you had to be polite or if you were stronger then you could kill the other player.
IThere's a fine line between simple player killing as part of the game, and griefing because you enjoy causing others pain. Obviously some folks don't realize it
And what people dont seem to realize is that there is no way to tell which is the other players motive for killing you. Everyone just assumes its because they are a griefer because they lack the maturity to handle a game with consequences such as being killed and looted.
Instead of being mature and seeing what being killed is, a minor set back, they automatically cry griefer. Bascially, there is no fine line, just people who cant take being one up'd by another player.
IThere's a fine line between simple player killing as part of the game, and griefing because you enjoy causing others pain. Obviously some folks don't realize it
And what people dont seem to realize is that there is no way to tell which is the other players motive for killing you. Everyone just assumes its because they are a griefer because they lack the maturity to handle a game with consequences such as being killed and looted.
Instead of being mature and seeing what being killed is, a minor set back, they automatically cry griefer. Bascially, there is no fine line, just people who cant take being one up'd by another player.
Well, thats certainly one possibility. But over time its been demonstrated countless times, that there ARE people who get their jollies from ruining others play experience. Rather than blaming the victim (which in some regards, is what a certain perspective advocates) it makes more sense, business wise, to take steps to eliminate the ability for griefers and gankers and their antics to disrupt others play experience.
Perpetuum is an example of a game that has both elements, and handles them rather well. On the Alpha islands unflagged players simply can't be attacked by players. Period. On the Beta islands its free for all PvP. Anyone going to the Betas knows that. In that regard, its the natural end point to a system such as the evolution of EVE's Concord.
That evolution has been to protect CCP's business model. As long as people like the Goonies exist, game companies in the modern western markets would be best served to adopt the model that Perpetuum uses.
The explanation as to why there is so little 'PvP Freedom' is in a poll on this very site.
What's more important to you, PvE or PvP? With something like 13,000 votes counted you have:
PvE - 15.7% PvE focus with a little PvP - 31.8% PvP/PvE equally - 35.7% PvP focus with a little PvP - 11.0% PvP - 5.8%
The scale is heavily weighted to the PvE side. If you equate 'Freedom' with 'PvP', then there will be fewer games that have the 'freedom' you're looking for. In short, the article is wrong. The genre doesn't need more bastards. The genre needs better implemented PvE freedom because that's what more people want.
Unless the point is that the person writing the article just wants more PvP freedom instead of that the genre needs it.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
One thing Id like to point out is the pvp and greifing ~long term~ establish an economic drive for game worlds. Without item loss game economys get stagnet or older items need to become usless and curency contines to inflate. Yes there are "work arounds" but a player driven game world and economy that can self-regulate requires a certant amount of greif.
Originally posted by stealthbr Originally posted by Robsolf
I think what some folks are saying is that just because a game ALLOWS you to do something, doesn't mean you should do it. If it was no longer illegal to kill people in real life, you wouldn't suddenly start seeing everybody jumping and stabbing total strangers when they turn their back.
Actually, I highly disagree with this. If killing were made legal, you would see the number of homicides, assassinations, and murders increase uncontrollably. It would become a free for all. If you had a family to support, and no money to do so, you would go steal from a groceries store. The store clerk would deny your assault, you would kill him, and that would be the end of it. There would be no stability, everything would be chaotic and we would tear each other apart. I am of the opinion that a person feeling brave with said gun in hand, becomes much LESS brave when faced by a person with a gun in their own hand facing them. Would you shoot said grocery store clerk knowing that 10 other, gun-wielding customers are there, too? People in real life, just like gankers in games, are wussies if they do not have the obvious upper hand. There may be a short spike in homicides until all the stupid people are killed and then society would settle down to normal. Matter of fact, society would be much MORE livable because the consequence of death ever looming would keep the people still alive in line much better than any jail time sentence would. Just my thoughts on the matter. Gankers are ALL out to see whose fun they can spoil, no matter how they justify it in their small minds.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Comments
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Don't even compare that piece of rubbish Cryptics is doing to NWN1. There won't be the 'world building' aspect that NWN1 had. As far as I have seen it will just be another tired attempt to play on a sucessful franchise. Cryptic's doing it, that should give you a clue. Atari flogged them off to Perfect World International less than 3 years after they bought them. We see Cryptics attitude towards quality with the farce that was Star Trek Online.
You want to re-energize the community, make Neverwinter a 'build your own world from square one' game like NWN1 was (with areas. placeables, terrain, scripting, community expansion,Linux server hosting,MySQL Database tie-in etc) but using modern 3D technology and they will have a winner.
They are bound to fail with a sad attempt at anything else. You can't stick in a few 'user controlable items' and call it Neverwinter. From what I have seen so far, they WILL NOT be getting my money.
Yes, you entirely missed the point. We are talking about how important "bast****" prevention is from games as they detract from the overall experience. Games that allow for griefers and complete idiots that go unpunished will never succeed in creating a stable and healthy gaming environment.
He's not talking about risk. There can be a whole lot of that without griefing and within a game's established rules. What he is suggesting is that MMO's should allow for more assh**** which is simply an immature and unfounded idea.
Usually these games only allow for one character per server.
I just heard about the MMO so I was watching the trailer.
On topic:
Actually, I remember that in one free to play game I played back in the day that was kill and loot the pk areas were actually better than the non-pk ones.
People were more well-behaved if they knew you could kill them and take all their shiny gold pieces. Like, in the non-pk areas players would harrass you and "steal" mobs while cussing you out. In the pk area players had two choices: if you were weak you had to be polite or if you were stronger then you could kill the other player.
MMORPG.com blog
And what people dont seem to realize is that there is no way to tell which is the other players motive for killing you. Everyone just assumes its because they are a griefer because they lack the maturity to handle a game with consequences such as being killed and looted.
Instead of being mature and seeing what being killed is, a minor set back, they automatically cry griefer. Bascially, there is no fine line, just people who cant take being one up'd by another player.
Well, thats certainly one possibility. But over time its been demonstrated countless times, that there ARE people who get their jollies from ruining others play experience. Rather than blaming the victim (which in some regards, is what a certain perspective advocates) it makes more sense, business wise, to take steps to eliminate the ability for griefers and gankers and their antics to disrupt others play experience.
Perpetuum is an example of a game that has both elements, and handles them rather well. On the Alpha islands unflagged players simply can't be attacked by players. Period. On the Beta islands its free for all PvP. Anyone going to the Betas knows that. In that regard, its the natural end point to a system such as the evolution of EVE's Concord.
That evolution has been to protect CCP's business model. As long as people like the Goonies exist, game companies in the modern western markets would be best served to adopt the model that Perpetuum uses.
http://www.perpetuum-online.com/
The explanation as to why there is so little 'PvP Freedom' is in a poll on this very site.
What's more important to you, PvE or PvP? With something like 13,000 votes counted you have:
PvE - 15.7%
PvE focus with a little PvP - 31.8%
PvP/PvE equally - 35.7%
PvP focus with a little PvP - 11.0%
PvP - 5.8%
The scale is heavily weighted to the PvE side. If you equate 'Freedom' with 'PvP', then there will be fewer games that have the 'freedom' you're looking for. In short, the article is wrong. The genre doesn't need more bastards. The genre needs better implemented PvE freedom because that's what more people want.
Unless the point is that the person writing the article just wants more PvP freedom instead of that the genre needs it.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
One thing Id like to point out is the pvp and greifing ~long term~ establish an economic drive for game worlds. Without item loss game economys get stagnet or older items need to become usless and curency contines to inflate. Yes there are "work arounds" but a player driven game world and economy that can self-regulate requires a certant amount of greif.
Actually, I highly disagree with this. If killing were made legal, you would see the number of homicides, assassinations, and murders increase uncontrollably. It would become a free for all. If you had a family to support, and no money to do so, you would go steal from a groceries store. The store clerk would deny your assault, you would kill him, and that would be the end of it. There would be no stability, everything would be chaotic and we would tear each other apart.
I am of the opinion that a person feeling brave with said gun in hand, becomes much LESS brave when faced by a person with a gun in their own hand facing them. Would you shoot said grocery store clerk knowing that 10 other, gun-wielding customers are there, too? People in real life, just like gankers in games, are wussies if they do not have the obvious upper hand. There may be a short spike in homicides until all the stupid people are killed and then society would settle down to normal. Matter of fact, society would be much MORE livable because the consequence of death ever looming would keep the people still alive in line much better than any jail time sentence would. Just my thoughts on the matter. Gankers are ALL out to see whose fun they can spoil, no matter how they justify it in their small minds.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR