Guild Wars 2 WvWvW = rewards that matter for you, and every player on your server. it doesn't impede progression since you can level up through it.
Guild Wars 2 instanced PVP = you don't need to grind to become more competitive and the rewards are cosmetic.
looks like GW2 doesn't marginalize world pvp and heavily incentivise instance pvp like WoW, WAR, TOR, etc.
TOR doesn't marginalize either form of PvP a they both have the exact same incentives, gear. I commend GW2 for making progression cosmetic rather than stat based. However, I don't feel like WvWvW should be classified as anything other than a large BG (warzone, scenario, etc) because that's basically what it is. A large, instanced, PvP battlefield.
You obviously never played DAOC and RvR.....
It will be more like open world PvP then like instanced PvP...
Oh I know it won't be like the instanced PvP we're used to. But I still don't think it will be as open as I would like. Who knows? We haven't seen much on The Mists yet. I hope it measures up to what people are saying.
Guild Wars 2 WvWvW = rewards that matter for you, and every player on your server. it doesn't impede progression since you can level up through it.
Guild Wars 2 instanced PVP = you don't need to grind to become more competitive and the rewards are cosmetic.
looks like GW2 doesn't marginalize world pvp and heavily incentivise instance pvp like WoW, WAR, TOR, etc.
TOR doesn't marginalize either form of PvP a they both have the exact same incentives, gear. I commend GW2 for making progression cosmetic rather than stat based. However, I don't feel like WvWvW should be classified as anything other than a large BG (warzone, scenario, etc) because that's basically what it is. A large, instanced, PvP battlefield.
You obviously never played DAOC and RvR.....
It will be more like open world PvP then like instanced PvP...
Oh I know it won't be like the instanced PvP we're used to. But I still don't think it will be as open as I would like. Who knows? We haven't seen much on The Mists yet. I hope it measures up to what people are saying.
WvWvW will be persistent, just completely seperate from PvE.
WvWvW will be persistent, just completely seperate from PvE.
In my eyes, 1 week does not equal persistence. Alterac Valley (not trying to compare them) used to last for days at a time, but it was still a BG. My main complaint with The Mists is it is cross realm and laddered. Unless the same realms fight each other very frequently, there will be no rivalries. That takes a lot away from my PvP experience.
WvWvW will be persistent, just completely seperate from PvE.
In my eyes, 1 week does not equal persistence. Alterac Valley (not trying to compare them) used to last for days at a time, but it was still a BG. My main complaint with The Mists is it is cross realm and laddered. Unless the same realms fight each other very frequently, there will be no rivalries. That takes a lot away from my PvP experience.
It's 2 weeks. In the same permise, you don't find any pvp persistent because MMOs have maintenance every week and things get reset.
The OP obviously left WAR immediately after release and never bothered to look back.
Newsflash: WAR's open world PvP became quite well populated pretty soon after the release after they adjusted XP and RP gain rates... and even quite fun after introducing the new zone cap system with resources and stuff. However people like the OP don't know that and yet keep presenting themselves as some kind of experts on the game sitting on their throne of ignorant judgement.
I assure that for the past 2+ years WAR's RvR lakes are anything but a "ghost town" lol, at least on populated servers if any are left... Not playing the game fyi, it has its issues but lack of population in open PvP is definitely not one of those.
The only thing Mythic really did wrong is that AT RELEASE scenarios paid waaaay better rewards over time played than RvR. And that's it. Once they made RvR rewards comparable to those of scenarios over a given time played, the RvR proved to be even more popular than instances.
Jeez. I really hate WAR experts who left the game without renewing their sub. No, you don't know what you're talking about.
As for GW2. I'm sure ANet team took note of all WAR's mistakes (after all, it was the first PvP centric mmo after WoW's "raid or leave" ultimatum and it deserves a kudos for that - i don't know if many of young ones remember the "PvE terror" in post WoW days... why LOtRO has no PvP? well here's the answer: "raid or leave" Count yourselves lucky you live in times when PvP is not a dirty word). In addition 3 factions and dynamic events should prevent the game from becoming stale by adressing the only two irrepareable issues with WAR's open world PvP - 2 factions and lack of diversity in PvP goals.
Lots of good points. I think there were flaws in the RvR lake design like everyone else, but I don't see that as the only problem.
I think there is an issue with just having a zone like the Mists or the Lakes to begin with. If I'm wandering about having fun doing public quests, I have to actively decide to leave to go to the Mists. Because I will level through RvR, that means I'm having to skip PvE content.
This is one of the issues that plagued WAR too IMO.
Except there's still PvE content in the Mists, AND you're always sidekicked back to the appropriate level for whatever PvE area you're in in case you decide to go back and see what you 'missed'.
So you never 'skip' content. You're just not doing it at the time.
That's like saying the problem with having split starting areas (5 of them!) is that you're skipping the other 4 areas when you're leveling in PvE. It's the exact same level of problem, and has the same solution (Go back and do it when you feel like it! Yay reverse sidekicking powers go)
For those that never played Warhammer Online, WAR had open world PvP as well as Battlegrounds. The open world PvP was actually pretty well done.
They were large areas oconnected to the main PvE areas in each zone. They had Keeps to fight over and Objectives. There were PvP only quests. You could also level through PvP. They failed miserably.
Players chose the path of least resistance, and queued for Instanced battlegrounds, where they could PvE while waiting. This left the open world PvP zones empty. For those players who did venture out, the Keeps were a merry-go-round. Players would avoid other players, and go directly to the keeps to PvE the boss and reap the rewards around and around again.
Apart from the earliest levels, open world PvP went nowhere. I don't think this was a failure Mythic saw coming. I was surprised myself, and I'm still not exactly sure what happened. Some players blame the Instanced battlegrounds for being too convenient. Others say the players weren't properly incentivized etc.
Either way, this is eerily similar to how the Mists are being set up. What will make it different in GW2?
To put it as simply as possible, ArenaNet isn't Mythic. What I mean by that is that ANet seems a lot more plugged into their audience and make design decisions based on careful observation of player habits, rather than just throw something out there because it's cool. It has to be cool AND it has to work -- and they test it and re-test it while it's under development to ensure that both of those criteria are met.
I think Mythic's error was they had a good idea, but didn't stop to consider how their players would respond to it. They figured that if it was good, everything else will get sorted out on its own. My feeling is that ANet isn't willing to make that assumption. That's why I have so much confidence that the game will deliver.
Originally posted by Pilnkplonk The OP obviously left WAR immediately after release and never bothered to look back. Newsflash: WAR's open world PvP became quite well populated pretty soon after the release after they adjusted XP and RP gain rates... and even quite fun after introducing the new zone cap system with resources and stuff. However people like the OP don't know that and yet keep presenting themselves as some kind of experts on the game sitting on their throne of ignorant judgement. I assure that for the past 2+ years WAR's RvR lakes are anything but a "ghost town" lol, at least on populated servers if any are left... Not playing the game fyi, it has its issues but lack of population in open PvP is definitely not one of those. The only thing Mythic really did wrong is that AT RELEASE scenarios paid waaaay better rewards over time played than RvR. And that's it. Once they made RvR rewards comparable to those of scenarios over a given time played, the RvR proved to be even more popular than instances. Jeez. I really hate WAR experts who left the game without renewing their sub. No, you don't know what you're talking about. As for GW2. I'm sure ANet team took note of all WAR's mistakes (after all, it was the first PvP centric mmo after WoW's "raid or leave" ultimatum and it deserves a kudos for that - i don't know if many of young ones remember the "PvE terror" in post WoW days... why LOtRO has no PvP? well here's the answer: "raid or leave" Count yourselves lucky you live in times when PvP is not a dirty word). In addition 3 factions and dynamic events should prevent the game from becoming stale by adressing the only two irrepareable issues with WAR's open world PvP - 2 factions and lack of diversity in PvP goals.
You sure are sure making a lot of assumptions about me Plinkplonk.
I played WAR for six months before moving on. That was enough time to move two characters into T4 and play a ton of RvR. I don't think it's a stretch to say I gave it a fair shake, and the lakes were still a major problem at the time I left.
WAR's open world PvP was a major reason the game didn't live up to expectations. That's beyond dispute. Don't hate the messenger.
3 faction pvp sounds just great... but i'm really dissapointed at how removed this is from the game. I really would have preferred some kind of open world PvP, that worked within the whole lore of the game. This magical area where we fight ourselves from other worlds just like our own? Just lame, really.
How dare GW2 follow the example of DAOC and make an area in their game like the frontier, instead of open world PVP. What you mean there is thousands open thousands of people that enjoyed the frontier style of PVP? How dare they let’s burn the heretic and blasphemers of the only true from of PVP open world PVP!
After all people cannot like and want something else then what us true PVP fans like, and who cares if DAOC did it over 10 years ago. We know what is and will be the true PVP for people to follow and that is not a frontier or mists type system it is the one and only open world PVP. All hail the open world PVP god and if any of you developers out there try and do anything different expect to get anger forum posts and hate mail for the rest of your life! /sarcasm off
For those that never played Warhammer Online, WAR had open world PvP as well as Battlegrounds. The open world PvP was actually pretty well done.
They were large areas oconnected to the main PvE areas in each zone. They had Keeps to fight over and Objectives. There were PvP only quests. You could also level through PvP. They failed miserably.
Players chose the path of least resistance, and queued for Instanced battlegrounds, where they could PvE while waiting. This left the open world PvP zones empty. For those players who did venture out, the Keeps were a merry-go-round. Players would avoid other players, and go directly to the keeps to PvE the boss and reap the rewards around and around again.
Apart from the earliest levels, open world PvP went nowhere. I don't think this was a failure Mythic saw coming. I was surprised myself, and I'm still not exactly sure what happened. Some players blame the Instanced battlegrounds for being too convenient. Others say the players weren't properly incentivized etc.
Either way, this is eerily similar to how the Mists are being set up. What will make it different in GW2?
To put it as simply as possible, ArenaNet isn't Mythic. What I mean by that is that ANet seems a lot more plugged into their audience and make design decisions based on careful observation of player habits, rather than just throw something out there because it's cool. It has to be cool AND it has to work -- and they test it and re-test it while it's under development to ensure that both of those criteria are met.
I think Mythic's error was they had a good idea, but didn't stop to consider how their players would respond to it. They figured that if it was good, everything else will get sorted out on its own. My feeling is that ANet isn't willing to make that assumption. That's why I have so much confidence that the game will deliver.
And you base all of this one ONE game from ArenaNet, a single game that wasn't even an MMORPG. Gotta love this hero worship that is so rampant in these forums..
Guild Wars 2 WvWvW = rewards that matter for you, and every player on your server. it doesn't impede progression since you can level up through it.
Guild Wars 2 instanced PVP = you don't need to grind to become more competitive and the rewards are cosmetic.
looks like GW2 doesn't marginalize world pvp and heavily incentivise instance pvp like WoW, WAR, TOR, etc.
TOR doesn't marginalize either form of PvP a they both have the exact same incentives, gear. I commend GW2 for making progression cosmetic rather than stat based. However, I don't feel like WvWvW should be classified as anything other than a large BG (warzone, scenario, etc) because that's basically what it is. A large, instanced, PvP battlefield.
World PVP is discouraged via geography, quest routes for opposing factions never overlap. there are no incentives to fight out i the open world at all.
Guild Wars 2 WvWvW = rewards that matter for you, and every player on your server. it doesn't impede progression since you can level up through it.
Guild Wars 2 instanced PVP = you don't need to grind to become more competitive and the rewards are cosmetic.
looks like GW2 doesn't marginalize world pvp and heavily incentivise instance pvp like WoW, WAR, TOR, etc.
TOR doesn't marginalize either form of PvP a they both have the exact same incentives, gear. I commend GW2 for making progression cosmetic rather than stat based. However, I don't feel like WvWvW should be classified as anything other than a large BG (warzone, scenario, etc) because that's basically what it is. A large, instanced, PvP battlefield.
Instanced PvP is fine, and it has it's place, but that's really all this WvWvW is. At least it's 3 factions, I guess, even though the factions have no real reason to be fighting each other. It's kinda like a mini-game really. An afterthough added into the game with no relevence.
without quoting mutiple posts, im just going to fire-off a summerized response to what i've viewed so far.
structured pvp > the mist.
what i mean by this is; this is where you're going to find the best of the best simply because of the ranking/achievement/rewards/etc. this is because arenanet is jumping in headfirst trying to develop an eSport (probably a real first attempt for any mmo) worthy of reconition in an area that has been dominated mainly by the fps genre. this is also where balance tweeks and adjustments (hopefully limited in total numbers) will be focused. how many people actually participate in structured pvp over the mist depends on the competitiveness of the community in general. there is a chance (however unlikely if history proves anything) that structured pvp could end up being more popular than the mists simply because hot-join option fits right in with the more casual competitive player. remove the hot-join option and the mist will be more popular, no question in my mind/opinion. although, it will be quite a sight to see the a 5 man guild group pop into the the mist just to warm up before their structured match. stop laughing, you know it's/what's going to happen.
rivalries
i do not agree with a 'no rivalries' theory in the mists, even with the 2 week rotation. sooner or later, you are going to see the person or people that just owns you again. no one forgets an ass woopin. i don't care if you haven't seen them in months. its just the way people are wired. i have personally let people kill me so that they could sleep better at night. im not getting any younger and the crying gets annoying a lot faster now.
the mists = instanced
this one is also really getting old. people should start looking at the mists as a pvp only world with 4 zones, nearly (just leaving room for error here) complete with its own pve/npc elements. oh well, at least im looking forward to arenanet starting closed beta for the mists. and as soons as arenanet starts preorders for the mists, is the same time i start planning my vacation from work. when the mists finally goes live, im going to be playing all week. dam, i said the mists. i meant guild wars 2.
There is a big difference between WAR's PVP zones and the GW2 system.
In WAR, the zones were matched up into three seperate racial pairings and spread over four Tiers. Each racial pairing in each tier had it's own RVR "Lake", (except for one of the Orc/Dwarf pairings, where there were two seperate RVR Lakes in one of the tiers). That spread RVR over 13 seperate RVR sub-zones, segregated not just geographically, but by level range.
GW2 takes place in Four Interconnected WvWvW zones, with everyone auto leveled to 80. RVR isn't segregated geographically or by level, which eliminates issues caused by character level disparities and particular zones being "dead" because of a lack of popularity.
The Mists will contain Dynamic Events, including PVE content. Characters can not only level effectively in World vs World, but they will get loot equivalent to loot they would get in PVE, based on their true level. (This loot does not come from the inventory of defeated foes).
Since Competitive PVP is completely seperate from the PVE world and your PVE character progression, people will not be queueing up for CPVP as an equivalent alternative to World vs. World.
We need more details on exactly how World vs. World will work to draw more clear distinctions, but just what I have highlighted shows very marked differences between the two games.
Originally posted by fiontar There is a big difference between WAR's PVP zones and the GW2 system. In WAR, the zones were matched up into three seperate racial pairings and spread over four Tiers. Each racial pairing in each tier had it's own RVR "Lake", (except for one of the Orc/Dwarf pairings, where there were two seperate RVR Lakes in one of the tiers). That spread RVR over 13 seperate RVR sub-zones, segregated not just geographically, but by level range. GW2 takes place in Four Interconnected WvWvW zones, with everyone auto leveled to 80. RVR isn't segregated geographically or by level, which eliminates issues caused by character level disparities and particular zones being "dead" because of a lack of popularity. The Mists will contain Dynamic Events, including PVE content. Characters can not only level effectively in World vs World, but they will get loot equivalent to loot they would get in PVE, based on their true level. (This loot does not come from the inventory of defeated foes). Since Competitive PVP is completely seperate from the PVE world and your PVE character progression, people will not be queueing up for CPVP as an equivalent alternative to World vs. World. We need more details on exactly how World vs. World will work to draw more clear distinctions, but just what I have highlighted shows very marked differences between the two games.
Actually you got PvE loot from the Warhammer RvR as well. Players dropped items, but the items were not from that players actual inventory. There were also PvP specific quests, and Mythic talked leading up to launch that players could level entirely through RvR (technically you could).
To me, the concepts are kind of similar. A separate PvP only zone, separate from the PvE areas with keeps, quests, and battlefield objectives in addition to queued battleground instances. ArenaNets implementation may be better I.e. simply because they are ArenaNet, because 3faction PvP is simply better, or because of balance and fun, but the comparison is at least there.
what i mean by this is; this is where you're going to find the best of the best simply because of the ranking/achievement/rewards/etc. this is because arenanet is jumping in headfirst trying to develop an eSport (probably a real first attempt for any mmo) worthy of reconition in an area that has been dominated mainly by the fps genre. this is also where balance tweeks and adjustments (hopefully limited in total numbers) will be focused. how many people actually participate in structured pvp over the mist depends on the competitiveness of the community in general. there is a chance (however unlikely if history proves anything) that structured pvp could end up being more popular than the mists simply because hot-join option fits right in with the more casual competitive player. remove the hot-join option and the mist will be more popular, no question in my mind/opinion. although, it will be quite a sight to see the a 5 man guild group pop into the the mist just to warm up before their structured match. stop laughing, you know it's/what's going to happen.
rivalries
i do not agree with a 'no rivalries' theory in the mists, even with the 2 week rotation. sooner or later, you are going to see the person or people that just owns you again. no one forgets an ass woopin. i don't care if you haven't seen them in months. its just the way people are wired. i have personally let people kill me so that they could sleep better at night. im not getting any younger and the crying gets annoying a lot faster now.
the mists = instanced
this one is also really getting old. people should start looking at the mists as a pvp only world with 4 zones, nearly (just leaving room for error here) complete with its own pve/npc elements. oh well, at least im looking forward to arenanet starting closed beta for the mists. and as soons as arenanet starts preorders for the mists, is the same time i start planning my vacation from work. when the mists finally goes live, im going to be playing all week. dam, i said the mists. i meant guild wars 2.
I agree with you on every part except the part about it being prepped for E-Sports. Not having a spectator mode in beta or on release is going to hurt them BAD in that department. Now, if they are able to actually add that in before release (they stated they more than likely won't) so that the big name commentators/streamers can get into it, then great.
Now, to the OP: I agree with others that have said the same thing in this thread, comparing the Mists to WAR's RvR just doesn't make much sense. They will play out very differently and some of the mistakes WAR made with their RvR systems will be impossible to replicate in this game. If anything, it's closer to DAoC with a few key differences still.
The Mists are meant to be taken casually so if one server happens to not want to go defend their World zones and do PvE or Instanced PvP then that's fine, they'll be matched with other servers that don't venture into the Mists often. It'll just balance itself out so we hopefully won't run into the problems from WAR like, imbalanced populations on a single server leading to one side rolling the other. Really, right now it's a wait and see on how the Mists will work, but I'm hopeful.
3 faction pvp sounds just great... but i'm really dissapointed at how removed this is from the game. I really would have preferred some kind of open world PvP, that worked within the whole lore of the game. This magical area where we fight ourselves from other worlds just like our own? Just lame, really.
I think they will back it up with enough lore to make those intradimensionall battles in the Mists beleivable... And beleive me the PvP action will just feel like Open world PvP with lots of NPC's and PvE stuff mixed up intoo the gameplay..... The only thing missing is ganking.... if you dont want to be ganked, you cant.
People that would have loved to see 3 factions on a single server like the old DAOC zones forget about 1 thing.... that way that need to develop 3 whole different PvE worlds, thats very expensive and leaves people with only 1/3 th of the world to discover and explore... This is the main reason noboddy ever copied the DAoC system..... it required you to build 3 worlds intoo one game..
I think the GW2 solution is the best trade off possible, it gives people (that can accept the facts) the feeling of open world PvP, while PvE people have their zones free of Gankers. Its not lame... its a technical solution that offers the best of both worlds. Without the costs of developing 3 different worlds... And i am sure that GW2 has some awesome law to bcak it up.... And yes, everything is possible and beleivable as it is a fantasy world after all.... Thats the big advantage of a fantasy world... Everything is possible when the developers can think out of the box,.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
For those that never played Warhammer Online, WAR had open world PvP as well as Battlegrounds. The open world PvP was actually pretty well done.
They were large areas oconnected to the main PvE areas in each zone. They had Keeps to fight over and Objectives. There were PvP only quests. You could also level through PvP. They failed miserably.
Players chose the path of least resistance, and queued for Instanced battlegrounds, where they could PvE while waiting. This left the open world PvP zones empty. For those players who did venture out, the Keeps were a merry-go-round. Players would avoid other players, and go directly to the keeps to PvE the boss and reap the rewards around and around again.
Apart from the earliest levels, open world PvP went nowhere. I don't think this was a failure Mythic saw coming. I was surprised myself, and I'm still not exactly sure what happened. Some players blame the Instanced battlegrounds for being too convenient. Others say the players weren't properly incentivized etc.
Either way, this is eerily similar to how the Mists are being set up. What will make it different in GW2?
No, u fail to see the real problem with WAR. The OpenPVP area and in general the whole PVP system was hands down brilliant and even now compared to 90% of the MMO's, WAR is still one of the best PVP made games.
The real problem with WAR was a small little factor called EA.
Even if u try your best to make a game as polished as possible, in time, players will find easier ways to get pass some of the difficult stages of the game. Here, the designers of the game should have came in and make tweeks to the systems, change certain parts of the maps and so on.
Problem with WAR wasn't that the system was easier in a part, or that players were doing only 1 part so it's easier. The real problem WAR has, is the lack of developer intervention, no patches to fix these issues, no tweeks to the system no nothing. (0 customer support and game support, EA trademark)
If they would have started to acknowledge "ok so they found a way to do it skipping the main fight..we have to fix this somehow" i guarantee u that the game would have been fixed a long time ago, but we all know EA is all about bad games making money.
ANet is totally different and u can even say totally oposite to the EA mentality. They listen....take notes..and apply changes depending on what players say. That's why, when u look at the trailers/demos u go "Oh man this is what i'v always wanted" because they actually listened and made the game from a "gamers point of view" rather then "let's make money with good marketing and as low investment as possible"
There were much other problems in WAR, which make reasons of failure of open world PvP hard to evaluate. Im not even sure I would call WARs open world entire failure, despite all the problems I realy enjoyed it. From my point of view, things why a lot of ppl prefered scenarios were a lot of bugs that often made open world unplayable, like server stability, it took them a lot of time so ppl didnt got disconects in realy mass fights or class mechanics bugs ( like bright wizards gcd bug abuse that allowed them waporize ur tank wall in 1-2 seconds) . Things like this were reasons why ppl didnt wanted to play open world pvp, add to that 2 faction disbalance with different classes for each side and you have tons of problems.
From what we know about GW2, its open world will be different - 3 factions, same classes for all factions - so imo they are avoiding all major design flaws WAR had. If it will fail it will fail due other reasons than WAR had.
For those that never played Warhammer Online, WAR had open world PvP as well as Battlegrounds. The open world PvP was actually pretty well done.
It wasn't. It was buigged, the rewards for holding a keep were not worth it, the reward system for catching a keep was very RNG (people who just popped for 30 seconds getting top tier reward), it was impossible to convert a zone within reasonable timeframe (spent 7 hours and the bar barely moved despite holding everything and doing PQs with over 100 people non stop), and generally everyone prefered to loose a keep just to be able to be attacker again.
That's hardly good design... and WAR had tons of other issues along the way that resulted in people quitting. Those are the reason world PvP in that game failed.
GW2 WvWvW is completelyd ifferent mechanic, with completely different impact on gameplay, and GW2s Hot-Join PvP has no rewards. None. Nada. Zip. It's only for fun with hot-join, and for competetive gameplay in tournament mode, with vanity rewards like titles. You don't gain gear/skills from it, while WvWvW gives server wide buffs.
I remember tier 2-3 levelling. I could PvE, but id get no PvP points and okish exp... but only if I could find a group (unlikely).. I could do RvR in the RvR lakes, but unless there happened to be something going on, I wasnt likely to get much of anything. So most of the time, despite hating battlegrounds, I played battlegrounds over and over... hoping, desperately hoping that when I got to Tier 4, I could leave the battlegrounds behind me.
I was wrong.
In order to 'win' the zone and move the warfront along, I wasnt enough to just capture all the points and keeps in a zone. You actually had to win some battlegrounds, and being part of the army meant you got put in battleground queues. So, again forced into what I didnt want to do in order to do the thing I wanted to do.
Hopefully there is absolutely no connection between structured PvP and open world PvP in GW2.
Tbh i have yet to see a successful pvp map, and this have nothing to do with Warhammer.
Mmo pvp is such a drama queen, no really, people are so attached to their toons, even the most hardcore pvper will cry like babies if something turn wrong. It's not just War tbh, they are all the same here, from Uo to Aion, and everything in between.
You really need first to entice people to pvp, then maintain a good balance so that those maps won't empty faster than siphon, and yes bring the fun in (i think that's where War objective was a good idea). Anet will need a lot of dedication to make it right. I definitely think objective is a must now in pvp maps, no matter why War failed, it really isn't important here. They really need to give some depth into their map imo if they want people to go there and find their fun for more than the hour needed for a castle siege, and objectives as well as structured land control is absolutely needed to make this happen. If they don't do that, it will just be like any other mmo pvp map around, bland, tasteless and empty after few months because people will have nothing to do in there but getting the sensation they loose that attachment with their avatar.
It comes to mind if BGs and zone PvP can coexist at all. Depending on which one makes more fun, the other one could then be a silent place.
They can coexist ....
the main difference being time spend....
You could just jump in for a quick battleground if you where low on time... (real life you know)
And if you have more time available, you'd automatically choose WvWvW..... if you wanted to PvP, WvWvW is in my opinion still designed to become the games main endgame....
As long as WvWvW and Structured PvP are both being different enough and equally fun and rewarding, they will coexist in peace...... Biggest problem is that people might only join WvWvW massively on the last days of the 2 weeks periodes because rewards could be biggest then... So as long as there are enough SHorttime rewards in WvWvW it will coexcist with structured PvP..... Its one of those things that need to be toroughly ballanced....
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Comments
Oh I know it won't be like the instanced PvP we're used to. But I still don't think it will be as open as I would like. Who knows? We haven't seen much on The Mists yet. I hope it measures up to what people are saying.
WvWvW will be persistent, just completely seperate from PvE.
Open world pvp in WAR was not well done.
I know that every topic has been done to death while we wait for Guild Wars 2 but, comparing Guild Wars 2 Mists to WAR's open world pvp is a stretch.
You might as well compare GW2 Open world pvp to every other mmo that had open world pvp.
In my eyes, 1 week does not equal persistence. Alterac Valley (not trying to compare them) used to last for days at a time, but it was still a BG. My main complaint with The Mists is it is cross realm and laddered. Unless the same realms fight each other very frequently, there will be no rivalries. That takes a lot away from my PvP experience.
It's 2 weeks. In the same permise, you don't find any pvp persistent because MMOs have maintenance every week and things get reset.
The OP obviously left WAR immediately after release and never bothered to look back.
Newsflash: WAR's open world PvP became quite well populated pretty soon after the release after they adjusted XP and RP gain rates... and even quite fun after introducing the new zone cap system with resources and stuff. However people like the OP don't know that and yet keep presenting themselves as some kind of experts on the game sitting on their throne of ignorant judgement.
I assure that for the past 2+ years WAR's RvR lakes are anything but a "ghost town" lol, at least on populated servers if any are left... Not playing the game fyi, it has its issues but lack of population in open PvP is definitely not one of those.
The only thing Mythic really did wrong is that AT RELEASE scenarios paid waaaay better rewards over time played than RvR. And that's it. Once they made RvR rewards comparable to those of scenarios over a given time played, the RvR proved to be even more popular than instances.
Jeez. I really hate WAR experts who left the game without renewing their sub. No, you don't know what you're talking about.
As for GW2. I'm sure ANet team took note of all WAR's mistakes (after all, it was the first PvP centric mmo after WoW's "raid or leave" ultimatum and it deserves a kudos for that - i don't know if many of young ones remember the "PvE terror" in post WoW days... why LOtRO has no PvP? well here's the answer: "raid or leave" Count yourselves lucky you live in times when PvP is not a dirty word). In addition 3 factions and dynamic events should prevent the game from becoming stale by adressing the only two irrepareable issues with WAR's open world PvP - 2 factions and lack of diversity in PvP goals.
Except there's still PvE content in the Mists, AND you're always sidekicked back to the appropriate level for whatever PvE area you're in in case you decide to go back and see what you 'missed'.
So you never 'skip' content. You're just not doing it at the time.
That's like saying the problem with having split starting areas (5 of them!) is that you're skipping the other 4 areas when you're leveling in PvE. It's the exact same level of problem, and has the same solution (Go back and do it when you feel like it! Yay reverse sidekicking powers go)
To put it as simply as possible, ArenaNet isn't Mythic. What I mean by that is that ANet seems a lot more plugged into their audience and make design decisions based on careful observation of player habits, rather than just throw something out there because it's cool. It has to be cool AND it has to work -- and they test it and re-test it while it's under development to ensure that both of those criteria are met.
I think Mythic's error was they had a good idea, but didn't stop to consider how their players would respond to it. They figured that if it was good, everything else will get sorted out on its own. My feeling is that ANet isn't willing to make that assumption. That's why I have so much confidence that the game will deliver.
You sure are sure making a lot of assumptions about me Plinkplonk.
I played WAR for six months before moving on. That was enough time to move two characters into T4 and play a ton of RvR. I don't think it's a stretch to say I gave it a fair shake, and the lakes were still a major problem at the time I left.
WAR's open world PvP was a major reason the game didn't live up to expectations. That's beyond dispute. Don't hate the messenger.
How dare GW2 follow the example of DAOC and make an area in their game like the frontier, instead of open world PVP. What you mean there is thousands open thousands of people that enjoyed the frontier style of PVP? How dare they let’s burn the heretic and blasphemers of the only true from of PVP open world PVP!
After all people cannot like and want something else then what us true PVP fans like, and who cares if DAOC did it over 10 years ago. We know what is and will be the true PVP for people to follow and that is not a frontier or mists type system it is the one and only open world PVP. All hail the open world PVP god and if any of you developers out there try and do anything different expect to get anger forum posts and hate mail for the rest of your life! /sarcasm off
[Mod Edit]
And you base all of this one ONE game from ArenaNet, a single game that wasn't even an MMORPG. Gotta love this hero worship that is so rampant in these forums..
World PVP is discouraged via geography, quest routes for opposing factions never overlap. there are no incentives to fight out i the open world at all.
Instanced PvP is fine, and it has it's place, but that's really all this WvWvW is. At least it's 3 factions, I guess, even though the factions have no real reason to be fighting each other. It's kinda like a mini-game really. An afterthough added into the game with no relevence.
without quoting mutiple posts, im just going to fire-off a summerized response to what i've viewed so far.
structured pvp > the mist.
what i mean by this is; this is where you're going to find the best of the best simply because of the ranking/achievement/rewards/etc. this is because arenanet is jumping in headfirst trying to develop an eSport (probably a real first attempt for any mmo) worthy of reconition in an area that has been dominated mainly by the fps genre. this is also where balance tweeks and adjustments (hopefully limited in total numbers) will be focused. how many people actually participate in structured pvp over the mist depends on the competitiveness of the community in general. there is a chance (however unlikely if history proves anything) that structured pvp could end up being more popular than the mists simply because hot-join option fits right in with the more casual competitive player. remove the hot-join option and the mist will be more popular, no question in my mind/opinion. although, it will be quite a sight to see the a 5 man guild group pop into the the mist just to warm up before their structured match. stop laughing, you know it's/what's going to happen.
rivalries
i do not agree with a 'no rivalries' theory in the mists, even with the 2 week rotation. sooner or later, you are going to see the person or people that just owns you again. no one forgets an ass woopin. i don't care if you haven't seen them in months. its just the way people are wired. i have personally let people kill me so that they could sleep better at night. im not getting any younger and the crying gets annoying a lot faster now.
the mists = instanced
this one is also really getting old. people should start looking at the mists as a pvp only world with 4 zones, nearly (just leaving room for error here) complete with its own pve/npc elements. oh well, at least im looking forward to arenanet starting closed beta for the mists. and as soons as arenanet starts preorders for the mists, is the same time i start planning my vacation from work. when the mists finally goes live, im going to be playing all week. dam, i said the mists. i meant guild wars 2.
There is a big difference between WAR's PVP zones and the GW2 system.
In WAR, the zones were matched up into three seperate racial pairings and spread over four Tiers. Each racial pairing in each tier had it's own RVR "Lake", (except for one of the Orc/Dwarf pairings, where there were two seperate RVR Lakes in one of the tiers). That spread RVR over 13 seperate RVR sub-zones, segregated not just geographically, but by level range.
GW2 takes place in Four Interconnected WvWvW zones, with everyone auto leveled to 80. RVR isn't segregated geographically or by level, which eliminates issues caused by character level disparities and particular zones being "dead" because of a lack of popularity.
The Mists will contain Dynamic Events, including PVE content. Characters can not only level effectively in World vs World, but they will get loot equivalent to loot they would get in PVE, based on their true level. (This loot does not come from the inventory of defeated foes).
Since Competitive PVP is completely seperate from the PVE world and your PVE character progression, people will not be queueing up for CPVP as an equivalent alternative to World vs. World.
We need more details on exactly how World vs. World will work to draw more clear distinctions, but just what I have highlighted shows very marked differences between the two games.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
Actually you got PvE loot from the Warhammer RvR as well. Players dropped items, but the items were not from that players actual inventory. There were also PvP specific quests, and Mythic talked leading up to launch that players could level entirely through RvR (technically you could).
To me, the concepts are kind of similar. A separate PvP only zone, separate from the PvE areas with keeps, quests, and battlefield objectives in addition to queued battleground instances. ArenaNets implementation may be better I.e. simply because they are ArenaNet, because 3faction PvP is simply better, or because of balance and fun, but the comparison is at least there.
I agree with you on every part except the part about it being prepped for E-Sports. Not having a spectator mode in beta or on release is going to hurt them BAD in that department. Now, if they are able to actually add that in before release (they stated they more than likely won't) so that the big name commentators/streamers can get into it, then great.
Now, to the OP: I agree with others that have said the same thing in this thread, comparing the Mists to WAR's RvR just doesn't make much sense. They will play out very differently and some of the mistakes WAR made with their RvR systems will be impossible to replicate in this game. If anything, it's closer to DAoC with a few key differences still.
The Mists are meant to be taken casually so if one server happens to not want to go defend their World zones and do PvE or Instanced PvP then that's fine, they'll be matched with other servers that don't venture into the Mists often. It'll just balance itself out so we hopefully won't run into the problems from WAR like, imbalanced populations on a single server leading to one side rolling the other. Really, right now it's a wait and see on how the Mists will work, but I'm hopeful.
I think they will back it up with enough lore to make those intradimensionall battles in the Mists beleivable... And beleive me the PvP action will just feel like Open world PvP with lots of NPC's and PvE stuff mixed up intoo the gameplay..... The only thing missing is ganking.... if you dont want to be ganked, you cant.
People that would have loved to see 3 factions on a single server like the old DAOC zones forget about 1 thing.... that way that need to develop 3 whole different PvE worlds, thats very expensive and leaves people with only 1/3 th of the world to discover and explore... This is the main reason noboddy ever copied the DAoC system..... it required you to build 3 worlds intoo one game..
I think the GW2 solution is the best trade off possible, it gives people (that can accept the facts) the feeling of open world PvP, while PvE people have their zones free of Gankers. Its not lame... its a technical solution that offers the best of both worlds. Without the costs of developing 3 different worlds... And i am sure that GW2 has some awesome law to bcak it up.... And yes, everything is possible and beleivable as it is a fantasy world after all.... Thats the big advantage of a fantasy world... Everything is possible when the developers can think out of the box,.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
No, u fail to see the real problem with WAR. The OpenPVP area and in general the whole PVP system was hands down brilliant and even now compared to 90% of the MMO's, WAR is still one of the best PVP made games.
The real problem with WAR was a small little factor called EA.
Even if u try your best to make a game as polished as possible, in time, players will find easier ways to get pass some of the difficult stages of the game. Here, the designers of the game should have came in and make tweeks to the systems, change certain parts of the maps and so on.
Problem with WAR wasn't that the system was easier in a part, or that players were doing only 1 part so it's easier. The real problem WAR has, is the lack of developer intervention, no patches to fix these issues, no tweeks to the system no nothing. (0 customer support and game support, EA trademark)
If they would have started to acknowledge "ok so they found a way to do it skipping the main fight..we have to fix this somehow" i guarantee u that the game would have been fixed a long time ago, but we all know EA is all about bad games making money.
ANet is totally different and u can even say totally oposite to the EA mentality. They listen....take notes..and apply changes depending on what players say. That's why, when u look at the trailers/demos u go "Oh man this is what i'v always wanted" because they actually listened and made the game from a "gamers point of view" rather then "let's make money with good marketing and as low investment as possible"
There were much other problems in WAR, which make reasons of failure of open world PvP hard to evaluate. Im not even sure I would call WARs open world entire failure, despite all the problems I realy enjoyed it. From my point of view, things why a lot of ppl prefered scenarios were a lot of bugs that often made open world unplayable, like server stability, it took them a lot of time so ppl didnt got disconects in realy mass fights or class mechanics bugs ( like bright wizards gcd bug abuse that allowed them waporize ur tank wall in 1-2 seconds) . Things like this were reasons why ppl didnt wanted to play open world pvp, add to that 2 faction disbalance with different classes for each side and you have tons of problems.
From what we know about GW2, its open world will be different - 3 factions, same classes for all factions - so imo they are avoiding all major design flaws WAR had. If it will fail it will fail due other reasons than WAR had.
It wasn't. It was buigged, the rewards for holding a keep were not worth it, the reward system for catching a keep was very RNG (people who just popped for 30 seconds getting top tier reward), it was impossible to convert a zone within reasonable timeframe (spent 7 hours and the bar barely moved despite holding everything and doing PQs with over 100 people non stop), and generally everyone prefered to loose a keep just to be able to be attacker again.
That's hardly good design... and WAR had tons of other issues along the way that resulted in people quitting. Those are the reason world PvP in that game failed.
GW2 WvWvW is completelyd ifferent mechanic, with completely different impact on gameplay, and GW2s Hot-Join PvP has no rewards. None. Nada. Zip. It's only for fun with hot-join, and for competetive gameplay in tournament mode, with vanity rewards like titles. You don't gain gear/skills from it, while WvWvW gives server wide buffs.
The difference is pretty obvious.
Yeah the battlegrounds really spoilt WAR for me.
I remember tier 2-3 levelling. I could PvE, but id get no PvP points and okish exp... but only if I could find a group (unlikely).. I could do RvR in the RvR lakes, but unless there happened to be something going on, I wasnt likely to get much of anything. So most of the time, despite hating battlegrounds, I played battlegrounds over and over... hoping, desperately hoping that when I got to Tier 4, I could leave the battlegrounds behind me.
I was wrong.
In order to 'win' the zone and move the warfront along, I wasnt enough to just capture all the points and keeps in a zone. You actually had to win some battlegrounds, and being part of the army meant you got put in battleground queues. So, again forced into what I didnt want to do in order to do the thing I wanted to do.
Hopefully there is absolutely no connection between structured PvP and open world PvP in GW2.
It comes to mind if BGs and zone PvP can coexist at all. Depending on which one makes more fun, the other one could then be a silent place.
Tbh i have yet to see a successful pvp map, and this have nothing to do with Warhammer.
Mmo pvp is such a drama queen, no really, people are so attached to their toons, even the most hardcore pvper will cry like babies if something turn wrong. It's not just War tbh, they are all the same here, from Uo to Aion, and everything in between.
You really need first to entice people to pvp, then maintain a good balance so that those maps won't empty faster than siphon, and yes bring the fun in (i think that's where War objective was a good idea). Anet will need a lot of dedication to make it right. I definitely think objective is a must now in pvp maps, no matter why War failed, it really isn't important here. They really need to give some depth into their map imo if they want people to go there and find their fun for more than the hour needed for a castle siege, and objectives as well as structured land control is absolutely needed to make this happen. If they don't do that, it will just be like any other mmo pvp map around, bland, tasteless and empty after few months because people will have nothing to do in there but getting the sensation they loose that attachment with their avatar.
They can coexist ....
the main difference being time spend....
You could just jump in for a quick battleground if you where low on time... (real life you know)
And if you have more time available, you'd automatically choose WvWvW..... if you wanted to PvP, WvWvW is in my opinion still designed to become the games main endgame....
As long as WvWvW and Structured PvP are both being different enough and equally fun and rewarding, they will coexist in peace...... Biggest problem is that people might only join WvWvW massively on the last days of the 2 weeks periodes because rewards could be biggest then... So as long as there are enough SHorttime rewards in WvWvW it will coexcist with structured PvP..... Its one of those things that need to be toroughly ballanced....
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)