well i am no expert on evil but i would like to point out a few things:
you are leaving out "indoctrination" out of your equation. both sith and jedi did indoctrinate their mentees since very young. the sith were indoctrinated from a very early age to accumulate as much power as possible at whatever cost; and that anything short of becoming a Sith Lord and killing their former master is failure.
the sith have also experienced moments where backstabbing were not expected or part of their system. an obvious example is the Brotherhood. The Darth Bane trilogy explains in detail why what system, however, was considered inapropriate.
and finally
not all sith are the same. some are cold and calculating, whilst some do in fact find it rather difficult to backstab their mentors; and even undergoing cruel experiences in their training they develop a devotion and affection towards them. best example here is darth maul.
I still think a society mired in constant inner conflict would be WAY too weak compared to any other power to exist.
Also, every doctrine as I see must at some point be in accordance with true inner desires of people, it never works if it goes against the fundamental principles of psychology. For a while indoctrination and fear can move people, but it would always end in anarchy. People have natural desire to form communities and cooperate, to form bond of trust and loyalty, the comraderie where they belong. I don't think you can create a soiecty in ignorance of this basic desire. I don't think humans are "black boxes" which can be molded into anything.
within the sith, even in their rule of two, there is a very twisted component of trust and loyalty.
but granted: its hard to imagine how a personal persuit for power can be the only motivating force behind one's life.
It's just a video game. You don't have to take things SO SERIOUSLY.
I take nothing seriously. I troll myself to sleep at night. That doesn't mean I can't enjoy some deeper thoughts than a lot of the other trash omg-panda boring crap that gets posted on these forums?
But it's not feesable. If you did have a gandhi as a universal all powerful leader, then perhaps it could work out. but it can't. The Republic is a lesser evil from a logical and historical point of view. The Sith Empire is a reform of action and of a belief that change is good and the strong will survive. only the weak will shelter behind diplomacy.
Gandhi was, apperantly, a pedophile and a racist (though granted, those things were a lot more acceptable in his time). So not entirely sure that'd be such a great idea.
Saints don't exist. Everyone does bad things, mother Theresa included.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
I just can not find it plausible or believable that a society could exist on a concept where every single individual fights only for himself, his own benefit and backstabs everyone at every opportunity. Just like the idea of the Drow from Faerun, such a society would just collaps in no time, and it would have no strength to fight against ANY halfway organized system.
But all sith are not like this. The Sith are very different, and that is what you can roleplay in the Old Republic.
Naga Sadows tomb on Korriban in Knights of the Old Republic, the remnants of his gost says something akin to this; "Isn't it obvious what we did? We destroyed each other".
The Sith didn't lose Korriban over war with the Republic or something. They did eventually consume each other. But there is much more to the Sith. And the Sith changed too.
I am looking forward to exploring the Dark Side in TOR. My guess is that you will be more evil as a Jedi who goes to the Dark Side. Because you are fighting to defend the people who need you. On the Empire side, everyone should know that it's only for the strong. Like a Spartan soceity that breeds out the weak DNA in the faulty bloodlines, only to have the toughest and purest warriors possible. Weed out those who will not drive our species forward.
I know people in RL who actually will agree with some of the Sith philosophies. A guy I meet once had no problem cheating or lying to people. His argument was just "the smarter, tricks out the less smarter" and that was his justification for everything. He felt that society shields those of us who are weak.
OP - Do you think the Jedi way is better? How can it be better to act without emotion. What about the good emotions? To me, that ideology is truly psychotic. At least the Sith have a will to live.
But I believe all ideologies are faulty. It's like religion. It's just implanting yourself with an operating system so you don't have to ask the hard questions and make the harsh choices. "ohh I will go to heaven. lol no consequences for me if I pray this and worship dad.. lol life".
Ofc I'm not against idelogy/religion, but they are all faulty. But I don't see Sith being more faulty than the Jedi!
Nah the Jedi philosophy also ignores the natural desires of humans. A society based in false conceptions always must fail. But the Jedi do not lead the Republic, the Sith however lead the Empire. That is the difference. The flaws of the Jedi ideal just matter to themselves. The Sith ideology forms the entire Empire, since they rule it.
I do not believe total altruism or total selfishness is right, because both create societies which can not function.
A society needs a system, where "weak systems" fail, and the better survives. Not the better person, but the better principle! That mean, wrong/weak systems must be able to fail. On the other hand, we know societies based on total selfishness all failed. Trustworthyness is a necessity both for humans to live, and for a society, because if everyone acted like your friend, we would drown in anarchy and fall back to cavemen status. He only benefits now as individual, because others act not like him. If all were like your friend, I assume there would "always be a bigger fish" and in a such anarchistic society where no morality exists at all (and thus no laws) he'd be dead quite soon. See "Wild West" setting. In a society of total wantoness in the end only physical brutality wins, and that does not prove any reasonable skills at all! It just means those with the guns rule. And thats no reasonable way to improve a society as your friend claims. We are just not so wise to really KNOW what power is useful on the large scale.
Or let's ask from another angle: Do you think those Sith guys are happy at all? I see egoism as the purest disire to make myself happy, no matter what. And I can not for the world imagine these Sith feel good at all. And that is were the idea of Sith evil fails to be plausible for me. I mean, ok there are always a few sickos. But then again, thats not evil, thats just mentally sick.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I think that "evil," as it is portrayed in SW is pretty unrealistic as well. If for nothing more than the mere fact that the Sith seem to realize they are evil and almost hold evil up as an ideal (The Dark Lord of the Sith...really?).
In reality, no group actually "believes" they are evil. And if they do, then they do so in jest (Satanists). Instead, groups that we call "evil" very likely thought they were doing the right thing. That's why we have phrases and quotes like:
The road the hell is paved on good intentions.
and
As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable for the evil they set out to destroy.
From my knowledge of history, it seems like most "evil" things perpertrated by a group are usually due to factors like:
Fear (Japanese internment camps, Pol Pot killing intellectuals that could threaten his rule)
Scapegoating (Nazis blaming Jews and others for Germany's problems)
Peer pressure / Need to be led (Hitler, Charles Manson)
Generalization (Hating an entire people for the actions of one or two members of that people)
Of these, I think fear is probably the most influential.
Who says that all Sith are Evil? and that their philosophies are evil? if anything they are more of a military structure with a stong religious influence, but not evil.
Torture someone to get info to save millions/billions of lives is that evil? I would say no.
The Emperor in the movies plots for Decades to take over the republic, setting up jedi as the fall guys and maneuvering them like peices on a chess board, but is he evil, I say no, he restored the balance whice at the time was WAY WAY in the Jedi's favor, this is the ideal that the force aims for, not the complete dominace of good (justice, right what ever you wish to label it).
This action shows that he was not just a crazy nut job bent on taking over the know galaxy but a tactician who's goal was peace, yes through the removal of the jedi but I think I would try and get revenge on a group that had almost hunted my people to extinction, driving us to live on the edges of the galaxy or as slaves.
So I disagree with this whole post about designing a game with evil in it, yes you can be evil if you want but you will first have to define what is evil, and that is were it all gets very grey.
Nah the Jedi philosophy also ignores the natural desires of humans. A society based in false conceptions always must fail. But the Jedi do not lead the Republic, the Sith however lead the Empire. That is the difference. The flaws of the Jedi ideal just matter to themselves. The Sith ideology forms the entire Empire, since they rule it.
I do not believe total altruism or total selfishness is right, because both create societies which can not function.
A society needs a system, where "weak systems" fail, and the better survives. Not the better person, but the better principle! That mean, wrong/weak systems must be able to fail. On the other hand, we know societies based on total selfishness all failed. Trustworthyness is a necessity both for humans to live, and for a society, because if everyone acted like your friend, we would drown in anarchy and fall back to cavemen status. He only benefits now as individual, because others act not like him. If all were like your friend, I assume there would "always be a bigger fish" and in a such anarchistic society where no morality exists at all (and thus no laws) he'd be dead quite soon. See "Wild West" setting. In a society of total wantoness in the end only physical brutality wins, and that does not prove any reasonable skills at all! It just means those with the guns rule. And thats no reasonable way to improve a society as your friend claims. We are just not so wise to really KNOW what power is useful on the large scale.
This reminds me of an interesting documentary someone made recently(perhaps BBC) about a rare insight into the culture of North Korea.
Like you describe their country have fallen back to something like stone ages, due to some wacky nationalism and pride. They refuse to admit that their population have taken aid from the west(food). they have little oil, so they are almost without of infastructure outside of the military and completely brainwashed from the outside world.
They have some of the best english speaking countrymen in all of Asia due to studying their enemies like it's their main agenda, but at the same time, they also believe that the dear leader invented the sun. It is tragic as it almost humorus how screwed up the human state of mind can become.
My friend argues that "don't harm others if you don't want harm done to you" are based on christian values. He believes that even in western countries that are not deeply rooted in christianity anymore, have their belief system tailored from these societies, and that he belives that we are not meant to be tame.
I sorta see his point. We're not civilized. If a disaster should hit us, and should we be without water and food, it wouldn't take long before we would kill other people to get water for our family members. rationality goes out the window, and our primal senses return.
I believe you even see everyday in small doses. Something as common as Road Rage. A phenomenon that is fasinating to me. Road Rage is like being a little sith emperor. you're sitting in your car' and so dumb **** changed into the lane in front of you. you dont know her circumstances. you don't know her. but you know she was wrong, and you're boiling with hate and curse her thousand curses.
Dark and Light sides represent most primal emotions in humans. Sith isnt your pinkie in mouth Dr Evil EeEEBIL but rather they represent the dark side we all have while Jedis represent all things good in humanity.
All beings are capable of good and evil but Jedi and The sith worship them...the dark side is destructive to both, to the sith and their enemies.
As in Star Wars universe, in real life if you pledge your life to hate and hatred, they eventually WILL consume you.
Here is what the lead writer on the old Republic, Daniel Erikson has to say;
"First of all, let me say that I love this thread. It always makes me smile to see people really digging into the setting and thinking about how it works together.Star Warshas a fascinating universe that is almost fairy tale simple on the surface and endlessly complex underneath. There is room for exceptions to every rule and variations on every theme. But in the interest of time, I'll keep this post to the general. The rule, not the exception.
Sith are evil.
The Sith philosophy is evil and encourages evil in its participants. We can get into endless philosophical discussions about whether anything is actually evil or actually good but if we are speaking from our modern, western view on the concept of evil then the Sith clearly qualify. They are encouraged to put the personal over the group, power over compassion and to judge everything's worthiness to survive on its ability to fight for that survival. Mercy, sympathy, generosity, these are seen as weaknesses. Anger and rage are seen as strengths. These are not people most of us want to work with or have as neighbors.
That does not mean, however, that the Sith see themselves as evil.
In our own world, slavery as something that is inherently evil is something the majority of the world has agreed about only in the most recent centuries. Imperialism, expansion through conquest, the rights of the few to rule the many because of birthright - these are things that our world's cultures have accepted as the natural order for a far larger percentage of history than they have rejected them.
In the Star Wars universe, followers of the Sith philosophy genuinely believe that these things we deem evil, are actually in the best interests of a society. They look at the disorder, corruption and infighting of the Republic and they scoff. "What those people lack," an Imperial thinks, "is strong leadership."
It's important to remember that movements towards freedom normally come during the reign of weak, distracted, or greedy rulers who are not providing for their people. The Sith Empire has had 1000 years under an Emperor who rebuilt them from almost nothing, led them in conquest and glory against their neighbors, returned the Empire to power and then led them in revenge against the Republic. A Republic who had previously attempted to eliminate the Empire's entire existence because of their beliefs. If this was ancient Rome the vast majority of the people would throw the Emperor a victory parade, not ask for representational government.
It's equally important to remember that you don't have to believe in any of this to play on the Empire's side in The Old Republic. You can be the exception to the rule. You are merely making a choice to be someone who was born on that side of the fence. Or, in the case of the Bounty Hunter, someone who tends to work in that part of space. The light side Sith who works tirelessly to make his Empire a better place is a deeply compelling character. The pragmatic Agent who wants nothing more than to protect the millions non-Sith citizens from harm is equally interesting. The Bounty Hunter gets to be his own man and spit right in the face of anyone who he doesn't agree with. Being a good man in a bad place is one of the all time great role-playing options.
So when you roll a character on the Empire side you're going to hear the arguments about why the war is important. You're going to feel the anger of a people who were told they didn't have the right to exist and were chased out of known space. You're going to see the culture that created and maintains their hierarchy and strange form of order. And you're going to make a choice about how much or how little of it your character wants to believe. Then you're going to start making choices. That's when it gets hard.
Oddly enough, perhaps I have been brainwashed by the Sith - but in many of the discussions about the Sith and the Jedi, the Jedi are easily pointed out to be the "EVIL" guys. There were similar discussions in regard to WoW with the Horde and the Alliance. It is very easy to make the Horde the good guys and the Alliance the bad guys.
In many conflicts, it is not a case of good fighting evil. No, it is two sides with conflcting views/desires that both believe themselves to be the good guys.
The victor...determines which side is good or bad. The victor rewrites history...with them as the heroes and the other side as the villain.
I see it as no different with the Sith and the Jedi... two sides in conflict, both believing they're the "good" side - the better side.
Many of us see the Sith as the "EVIL" side because the Jedi...the Republic, not the Empire - were the victors. Those are the movies we saw...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Oddly enough, perhaps I have been brainwashed by the Sith - but in many of the discussions about the Sith and the Jedi, the Jedi are easily pointed out to be the "EVIL" guys. There were similar discussions in regard to WoW with the Horde and the Alliance. It is very easy to make the Horde the good guys and the Alliance the bad guys.
In many conflicts, it is not a case of good fighting evil. No, it is two sides with conflcting views/desires that both believe themselves to be the good guys.
The victor...determines which side is good or bad. The victor rewrites history...with them as the heroes and the other side as the villain.
I see it as no different with the Sith and the Jedi... two sides in conflict, both believing they're the "good" side - the better side.
Many of us see the Sith as the "EVIL" side because the Jedi...the Republic, not the Empire - were the victors. Those are the movies we saw...
One thing I never understood when Obi-Wan and Anakin was arguing in the end.
"only sith deal in absolutes"
really obi? Because to me it's the Jedi who sounds like christian Crusaders on a quest to the absolute! Not that the sith are wrong, but what really happens when you reject the republic?
The society practicing uncontrollable murder through backstabbing/apprentice elimination can't exist, that's clear.
However, the society setting such backstabbing as a lofty theoretical ideal towards which every memeber of society should aspire, while actually practicing very controlled and safe society where any actual murder were punished strictly and thoroughly, and most people were just cogs in the machine, practicing backstabbing strictly on the level of intriguing (meanwhile imagining themselves Free and Powerful) is very much possible.
In practice it could look like this: we have 3 people, A > B > C . A is kind of an "overlord" and master over B, while B is master over C. C backstabs and kills B, which is all very noble and how it is supposed to be, but in doing so, he harms A, who had plans for B, and now his plans are destroyed and he is diminished and harmed through loss of B. So he punishes C by killing him, which is perfectly in line with Sith philosophy.
So C knows that it's good to kill B... But only for as long as it will not harm A. And killing B will always harm A, unless B disappoints A. So he works under B without trying to kill him and B lives without fear for his life, because they all know that C can't get away with killing B and C isn't stupid. So while everyone is as free to kill everyone else as philosophy of self-enpowerment goes, nobody actually kills anybody because that would be suicide and will certainly not profit anyone.
That situation repeats all the way up and down the chain. Anyone who is breaking the unspoken agreement is seen as a threat by both superiors and inferiors and is weeded out pretty fast.
Only in times of extraordinary turbulence, when the chain is broken already, actual backstabbing ensues... Until new chain is formed.
So, in other words, there is order, there is hierarchy, there is no actual anarchy; philosophy of Sith, while praised and supported, is as applicable to real life as Confucianism to China or actual teachings of Christs to Christians ( Republican Jesus, eh? ) - something which is clearly a Proper Way to Live, but which is not actually, in practice, followed. At least in normal circumstances. Movies do not show normal circumstances.
I think that "evil," as it is portrayed in SW is pretty unrealistic as well. If for nothing more than the mere fact that the Sith seem to realize they are evil and almost hold evil up as an ideal (The Dark Lord of the Sith...really?).
In reality, no group actually "believes" they are evil. And if they do, then they do so in jest (Satanists). Instead, groups that we call "evil" very likely thought they were doing the right thing. That's why we have phrases and quotes like:
The road the hell is paved on good intentions.
and
As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable for the evil they set out to destroy.
From my knowledge of history, it seems like most "evil" things perpertrated by a group are usually due to factors like:
Fear (Japanese internment camps, Pol Pot killing intellectuals that could threaten his rule)
Scapegoating (Nazis blaming Jews and others for Germany's problems)
Peer pressure / Need to be led (Hitler, Charles Manson)
Generalization (Hating an entire people for the actions of one or two members of that people)
Of these, I think fear is probably the most influential.
It is like the difference between Huxley's "Brave new world" and Orwells 1984. I NEVER believed a society as 1984 would function a longer time.
You see, biology itself works against it.
It is true fear is a strong motivator, but only for a short term burst, unless you keep a CONSTANT threatening pressure. Take the Inquisition of the Church as example for long term fear. Or South Korea as you cited. Such a constant fear needs to be upheld, but you pay a price: such a society fall into a state of apathy, lacking any initiative and progress. Fear makes people weak. Thats why.
The reason is this: fear is a stress reaction, which induces adrenaline into your body. It quickens your reactions and gives you short term burst of strength. When the prehistoric man accidentally met a wolf, the body has this stress reaction to allow the human body to be quicker and stronger, for a short time. But if you keep up the stress level continually, it erodes the mental abilities. If you had a test in school ahead of you, and people were constantly pressuring you, it is a guarantee that you fail, because the constant stress in your mind erodes you abilities.
And now a Sith society of constant backstab-danger is exactly that, a society were everyone is under constant stress. That can be enforced. But it would not be a very productive society. The middle aged fear endured, because it had no rival society that was different. The Sith Empire does not have that luxury, it has the Republic and many smaller power groups to rival it. And South Korea only exists in the most extreme isolation possible. For a caveman society or any society level yet based on phsyical strength mostly that may work, but a complex, modern high tech society would crumble under constant stress pressure sooner or later. ... And if you read the SW history, the Sith always DID fail.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Many of us see the Sith as the "EVIL" side because the Jedi...the Republic, not the Empire - were the victors. Those are the movies we saw...
I disagree here. many people see the sith/empire as evil because they were. In the original trilogy it was pretty black and white, empire = badguys, dress in black, blow up planets for the hell of it, ect ect. Rebel alliance = good guys, rag tag group who value life and liberty.
It only really got interesting in the expanded universe, when things turned grey, when the story actually became deep. I don't ever remember the first 3 movies talking about how the jedi kidnapped infants and brainwashed them into having no emotions, that came about later.
Don't get me wrong, I loved the movies, grew up on them, played star wars video games (the old terrible ones). But they were no where near as deep as the material has become over the past 10 years. The Star Wars Lucas made was The Lord of the Rings in space. The countless people who wrote books and (more recently) games are the ones who have really given us a deep thought provoking universe.
Everything creates huge amounts of negativity on the internet, that's what the internet is for: Negativity, porn and lolcats.
Nah the Jedi philosophy also ignores the natural desires of humans. A society based in false conceptions always must fail. But the Jedi do not lead the Republic, the Sith however lead the Empire. That is the difference. The flaws of the Jedi ideal just matter to themselves. The Sith ideology forms the entire Empire, since they rule it.
I do not believe total altruism or total selfishness is right, because both create societies which can not function.
A society needs a system, where "weak systems" fail, and the better survives. Not the better person, but the better principle! That mean, wrong/weak systems must be able to fail. On the other hand, we know societies based on total selfishness all failed. Trustworthyness is a necessity both for humans to live, and for a society, because if everyone acted like your friend, we would drown in anarchy and fall back to cavemen status. He only benefits now as individual, because others act not like him. If all were like your friend, I assume there would "always be a bigger fish" and in a such anarchistic society where no morality exists at all (and thus no laws) he'd be dead quite soon. See "Wild West" setting. In a society of total wantoness in the end only physical brutality wins, and that does not prove any reasonable skills at all! It just means those with the guns rule. And thats no reasonable way to improve a society as your friend claims. We are just not so wise to really KNOW what power is useful on the large scale.
This reminds me of an interesting documentary someone made recently(perhaps BBC) about a rare insight into the culture of North Korea.
Like you describe their country have fallen back to something like stone ages, due to some wacky nationalism and pride. They refuse to admit that their population have taken aid from the west(food). they have little oil, so they are almost without of infastructure outside of the military and completely brainwashed from the outside world.
They have some of the best english speaking countrymen in all of Asia due to studying their enemies like it's their main agenda, but at the same time, they also believe that the dear leader invented the sun. It is tragic as it almost humorus how screwed up the human state of mind can become.
My friend argues that "don't harm others if you don't want harm done to you" are based on christian values. He believes that even in western countries that are not deeply rooted in christianity anymore, have their belief system tailored from these societies, and that he belives that we are not meant to be tame.
I sorta see his point. We're not civilized. If a disaster should hit us, and should we be without water and food, it wouldn't take long before we would kill other people to get water for our family members. rationality goes out the window, and our primal senses return.
I believe you even see everyday in small doses. Something as common as Road Rage. A phenomenon that is fasinating to me. Road Rage is like being a little sith emperor. you're sitting in your car' and so dumb **** changed into the lane in front of you. you dont know her circumstances. you don't know her. but you know she was wrong, and you're boiling with hate and curse her thousand curses.
sorry. That was a sidetrack.
An interesting sidetrack! I am no Christian, but I do think values of forgivance, honesty, loyality, integrity asf (the typical good values) are making a more efficient society in the long term! So IMVPO these values are also from an egoistic point of view the better ones, because their "evil" opposite rather destroy society and progress. But I really prefer not to elaborate on this here. ^^ Just as a quick note.
Sidenote 2: After reading again the many interesting replies (thanks all to you guys!^^) I felt something personal in this as well. I feel very STRONG that loyality is the most important thing for me. It is a very strong nature of mine, that I seek to be loyal and side with people 100%. (Unless they were psycho muderers or what.) So for me personally, betrayal is the most unthinkable thing to do. Not because of some ideology taught to me, but... I dunno loyality is one of my strongest feelings. It always was, and nothing ever hurt me as much as betrayal or the lack of loyality in others. So maybe it is also from my personal point something I have a great difficulty to imagine. Hm...
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Many of us see the Sith as the "EVIL" side because the Jedi...the Republic, not the Empire - were the victors. Those are the movies we saw...
Don't get me wrong, I loved the movies, grew up on them, played star wars video games (the old terrible ones). But they were no where near as deep as the material has become over the past 10 years. The Star Wars Lucas made was The Lord of the Rings in space. The countless people who wrote books and (more recently) games are the ones who have really given us a deep thought provoking universe.
Man I remember buying Super Star Wars for Super Nintendo with my hard earned allowance. That game is still the most difficult game I have ever played. It's like playing Dark Souls.. blindfolded.
Or let's ask from another angle: Do you think those Sith guys are happy at all? I see egoism as the purest disire to make myself happy, no matter what. And I can not for the world imagine these Sith feel good at all. And that is were the idea of Sith evil fails to be plausible for me. I mean, ok there are always a few sickos. But then again, thats not evil, thats just mentally sick.
I would think they would be proud, which isn't the same as happiness. The Sith started as a race of purebreds. That meant there was a total family structure in some way where behaviour was learned. They have an overwhelming pride in the Sith ideals, not a love of them.
Example: I can imagine a situation where a Sith child is "caught" being nice to an animal; perhaps by hugging it or by treating it kindly. The Sith parent would be angry, that anger further fueling the faith ethic. To beat the Sith child within an inch of his life would no doubt give him satisfaction, not regret. Satisfaction in that he knows what he is doing now is a lesson and a furthering of his own abilities as a parent. That child would grow up with that ethos, and grow into a proper Sith.
For a Sith parent, pride would be a more valued emotion to have for their child than love. A Sith parent could never truly love his child I don't think, but would be proud and have a sense of accomplishment their child will grow up strong.
Or let's ask from another angle: Do you think those Sith guys are happy at all? I see egoism as the purest disire to make myself happy, no matter what. And I can not for the world imagine these Sith feel good at all. And that is were the idea of Sith evil fails to be plausible for me. I mean, ok there are always a few sickos. But then again, thats not evil, thats just mentally sick.
I would think they would be proud, which isn't the same as happiness. The Sith started as a race of purebreds. That meant there was a total family structure in some way where behaviour was learned. They have an overwhelming pride in the Sith ideals, not a love of them.
Example: I can imagine a situation where a Sith child is "caught" being nice to an animal; perhaps by hugging it or by treating it kindly. The Sith parent would be angry, that anger further fueling the faith ethic. To beat the Sith child within an inch of his life would no doubt give him satisfaction, not regret. Satisfaction in that he knows what he is doing now is a lesson and a furthering of his own abilities as a parent. That child would grow up with that ethos, and grow into a proper Sith.
For a Sith parent, pride would be a more valued emotion to have for their child than love. A Sith parent could never truly love his child I don't think, but would be proud and have a sense of accomplishment their child will grow up strong.
Maybe I am naive, but I can't imagine that no matter how a human is raised, in any sane human there would always be a "true good" that would rebel and cry out against that. Yes, my naive thinking, prolly. ^__^
You see, there is that parable of the Chinese philosopher Mencius. He said, if any human being would see a child walking towards a well, and being in danger to fall into it, it would be the first feeling of every human to feel pity. No matter what people are trained and raised and what feeling would turn in later, that empathy is a part of all human beings. So, that's what I believe as well. I know it sounds probably weird (especially in our days of cynism), but I truly think that empathy is a part of human nature, evil in the Sith sense is not.
Also, I could argue from a logical point of view, that I think it could be proven than most "good values" are logical to make a functioning society which makes progress and that "evil" just is destructive. Though I'd prefer not to go to details in this, I feel quit safe to say that evil is rather a mental illness in the sense that such a person has an illogical lack of sense for reality a distorted sense, so to speak. A sort of neurosis if you want.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
You can't hide from the gun if the gun is the Force. And if you do, you are stronger in the Force, so you have to take your superior's place. It should work, just like in predators packs where the stronger is the leader.
About all human beings having empathy, this is not the case, as the Yue murder video showed us recently.
Maybe I am naive, but I can't imagine that no matter how a human is raised, in any sane human there would always be a "true good" that would rebel and cry out against that. Yes, my naive thinking, prolly. ^__^
Yep, that is pretty naive. lets look back a few hundred years where slavery was a given of the time. No one rebeled and cried out against it, it was just the status quo, the same that I doubt you really feel the need to "rise up" along with PETA against the use of horses as beasts of burden.
You have decided what "true good" is based on your experiences: what you have been told, what you have seen first hand ect. Had you been born as a wealthy white male in America 200 years ago odds are you (same DNA) would have a vastly different view on good and evil.
If you had been kidnapped at the age of 3 and raised as a sith your entire life, the ideas would seem pretty run of the mill, and those facist Jedi would look pretty evil.
Everything creates huge amounts of negativity on the internet, that's what the internet is for: Negativity, porn and lolcats.
I still think a society mired in constant inner conflict would be WAY too weak compared to any other power to exist.
Also, every doctrine as I see must at some point be in accordance with true inner desires of people, it never works if it goes against the fundamental principles of psychology. For a while indoctrination and fear can move people, but it would always end in anarchy. People have natural desire to form communities and cooperate, to form bond of trust and loyalty, the comraderie where they belong. I don't think you can create a soiecty in ignorance of this basic desire. I don't think humans are "black boxes" which can be molded into anything.
I think you are misunderstanding one factor. The Sith are at the top of their respective society, but they only comprise a small segment of that society. So their society succeeds despite their personal needs and actions. All they need to do is instill a sense of pride and superiority in the other, more regular, members of their society. Then manipulate others into supporting their goals.
I almost envision Sith Society as being similar to American society, where the Politicians are the "Sith". And were instead of always using PR they sometimes resort to physical combat. People are encouraged to "follow their passions" here and its not seen as evil in any way. (To an extent some of us even think Greed is "Good".)
Otherwise I do tend to agree that there are many elements of "Sith Doctrine" that do seem questionable. And when I play as a Sith Character it will always be the with aim to be manipulative and deceptive, rather than cruel. But that just stems from my own personal concept that having a "powerful influence" over others makes me stronger. At the same time I don't want to kill everyone, because then I'd have no one to rule over.
Well, the Nazis signed a non-aggression treaty with the USSR then invaded them later. That's evil backstabbing evil right? They both failed... Evil will never truely prevail. Therefore, The Republic will eventually fall. Damn evil robot jedi.
Originally posted by Elikal Maybe I am naive, but I can't imagine that no matter how a human is raised, in any sane human there would always be a "true good" that would rebel and cry out against that. Yes, my naive thinking, prolly. ^__^You see, there is that parable of the Chinese philosopher Mencius. He said, if any human being would see a child walking towards a well, and being in danger to fall into it, it would be the first feeling of every human to feel pity. No matter what people are trained and raised and what feeling would turn in later, that empathy is a part of all human beings. So, that's what I believe as well. I know it sounds probably weird (especially in our days of cynism), but I truly think that empathy is a part of human nature, evil in the Sith sense is not.
It's interesting that you named a Chinese philospher and how he says that a human being saw a child in danger of falling into a well, pity would be the first feeling.
The reason I find that particularly interesting is that just last MONTH, a two-year old Chinese girl was hit head on by a truck, then run over.
The driver (and passenger) in the truck did not stop and kept going. Then the film (yes it was all caught on closed circuit cameras) showed that not only one person, two or three people passed but many people walked, rode or went right around that child in a wide arc to avoid her. As a matter of fact, another truck also ran the child over again, and did not stop.
It took quite some time before a woman came by and actually helped. This was in a public market. The child died in the hospital shortly afterwards needless to say.
I won't say you're naive, but I will say if you want to know what really happens, go to YouTube and type in "chinese" "girl" "run" "over". I wish I could show that Chinese philospher that video and then see what his take on it is.
When you see that video, tell me it's still not plausible that a Sith society raised from birth would ignore that same 2 yr old girl just like these modern day people did who aren't even Sith. In fact, they'd probably do exactly what Anakin did in that temple if they found their own Sith children lacking necessary evil.
I thought about linking the video, but I guarantee if I did, I would be banned. It's that bad, so here's an article instead:
Comments
within the sith, even in their rule of two, there is a very twisted component of trust and loyalty.
but granted: its hard to imagine how a personal persuit for power can be the only motivating force behind one's life.
I take nothing seriously. I troll myself to sleep at night. That doesn't mean I can't enjoy some deeper thoughts than a lot of the other trash omg-panda boring crap that gets posted on these forums?
Gandhi was, apperantly, a pedophile and a racist (though granted, those things were a lot more acceptable in his time). So not entirely sure that'd be such a great idea.
Saints don't exist. Everyone does bad things, mother Theresa included.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")
It is rather simple...
Evil will win, because good is dumb!
Nah the Jedi philosophy also ignores the natural desires of humans. A society based in false conceptions always must fail. But the Jedi do not lead the Republic, the Sith however lead the Empire. That is the difference. The flaws of the Jedi ideal just matter to themselves. The Sith ideology forms the entire Empire, since they rule it.
I do not believe total altruism or total selfishness is right, because both create societies which can not function.
A society needs a system, where "weak systems" fail, and the better survives. Not the better person, but the better principle! That mean, wrong/weak systems must be able to fail. On the other hand, we know societies based on total selfishness all failed. Trustworthyness is a necessity both for humans to live, and for a society, because if everyone acted like your friend, we would drown in anarchy and fall back to cavemen status. He only benefits now as individual, because others act not like him. If all were like your friend, I assume there would "always be a bigger fish" and in a such anarchistic society where no morality exists at all (and thus no laws) he'd be dead quite soon. See "Wild West" setting. In a society of total wantoness in the end only physical brutality wins, and that does not prove any reasonable skills at all! It just means those with the guns rule. And thats no reasonable way to improve a society as your friend claims. We are just not so wise to really KNOW what power is useful on the large scale.
Or let's ask from another angle: Do you think those Sith guys are happy at all? I see egoism as the purest disire to make myself happy, no matter what. And I can not for the world imagine these Sith feel good at all. And that is were the idea of Sith evil fails to be plausible for me. I mean, ok there are always a few sickos. But then again, thats not evil, thats just mentally sick.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I think that "evil," as it is portrayed in SW is pretty unrealistic as well. If for nothing more than the mere fact that the Sith seem to realize they are evil and almost hold evil up as an ideal (The Dark Lord of the Sith...really?).
In reality, no group actually "believes" they are evil. And if they do, then they do so in jest (Satanists). Instead, groups that we call "evil" very likely thought they were doing the right thing. That's why we have phrases and quotes like:
The road the hell is paved on good intentions.
and
As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable for the evil they set out to destroy.
From my knowledge of history, it seems like most "evil" things perpertrated by a group are usually due to factors like:
Fear (Japanese internment camps, Pol Pot killing intellectuals that could threaten his rule)
Scapegoating (Nazis blaming Jews and others for Germany's problems)
Peer pressure / Need to be led (Hitler, Charles Manson)
Generalization (Hating an entire people for the actions of one or two members of that people)
Of these, I think fear is probably the most influential.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Who says that all Sith are Evil? and that their philosophies are evil? if anything they are more of a military structure with a stong religious influence, but not evil.
Torture someone to get info to save millions/billions of lives is that evil? I would say no.
The Emperor in the movies plots for Decades to take over the republic, setting up jedi as the fall guys and maneuvering them like peices on a chess board, but is he evil, I say no, he restored the balance whice at the time was WAY WAY in the Jedi's favor, this is the ideal that the force aims for, not the complete dominace of good (justice, right what ever you wish to label it).
This action shows that he was not just a crazy nut job bent on taking over the know galaxy but a tactician who's goal was peace, yes through the removal of the jedi but I think I would try and get revenge on a group that had almost hunted my people to extinction, driving us to live on the edges of the galaxy or as slaves.
So I disagree with this whole post about designing a game with evil in it, yes you can be evil if you want but you will first have to define what is evil, and that is were it all gets very grey.
This reminds me of an interesting documentary someone made recently(perhaps BBC) about a rare insight into the culture of North Korea.
Like you describe their country have fallen back to something like stone ages, due to some wacky nationalism and pride. They refuse to admit that their population have taken aid from the west(food). they have little oil, so they are almost without of infastructure outside of the military and completely brainwashed from the outside world.
They have some of the best english speaking countrymen in all of Asia due to studying their enemies like it's their main agenda, but at the same time, they also believe that the dear leader invented the sun. It is tragic as it almost humorus how screwed up the human state of mind can become.
My friend argues that "don't harm others if you don't want harm done to you" are based on christian values. He believes that even in western countries that are not deeply rooted in christianity anymore, have their belief system tailored from these societies, and that he belives that we are not meant to be tame.
I sorta see his point. We're not civilized. If a disaster should hit us, and should we be without water and food, it wouldn't take long before we would kill other people to get water for our family members. rationality goes out the window, and our primal senses return.
I believe you even see everyday in small doses. Something as common as Road Rage. A phenomenon that is fasinating to me. Road Rage is like being a little sith emperor. you're sitting in your car' and so dumb **** changed into the lane in front of you. you dont know her circumstances. you don't know her. but you know she was wrong, and you're boiling with hate and curse her thousand curses.
sorry. That was a sidetrack.
Dark and Light sides represent most primal emotions in humans. Sith isnt your pinkie in mouth Dr Evil EeEEBIL but rather they represent the dark side we all have while Jedis represent all things good in humanity.
All beings are capable of good and evil but Jedi and The sith worship them...the dark side is destructive to both, to the sith and their enemies.
As in Star Wars universe, in real life if you pledge your life to hate and hatred, they eventually WILL consume you.
Here is what the lead writer on the old Republic, Daniel Erikson has to say;
"First of all, let me say that I love this thread. It always makes me smile to see people really digging into the setting and thinking about how it works together. Star Wars has a fascinating universe that is almost fairy tale simple on the surface and endlessly complex underneath. There is room for exceptions to every rule and variations on every theme. But in the interest of time, I'll keep this post to the general. The rule, not the exception.
Sith are evil.
The Sith philosophy is evil and encourages evil in its participants. We can get into endless philosophical discussions about whether anything is actually evil or actually good but if we are speaking from our modern, western view on the concept of evil then the Sith clearly qualify. They are encouraged to put the personal over the group, power over compassion and to judge everything's worthiness to survive on its ability to fight for that survival. Mercy, sympathy, generosity, these are seen as weaknesses. Anger and rage are seen as strengths. These are not people most of us want to work with or have as neighbors.
That does not mean, however, that the Sith see themselves as evil.
In our own world, slavery as something that is inherently evil is something the majority of the world has agreed about only in the most recent centuries. Imperialism, expansion through conquest, the rights of the few to rule the many because of birthright - these are things that our world's cultures have accepted as the natural order for a far larger percentage of history than they have rejected them.
In the Star Wars universe, followers of the Sith philosophy genuinely believe that these things we deem evil, are actually in the best interests of a society. They look at the disorder, corruption and infighting of the Republic and they scoff. "What those people lack," an Imperial thinks, "is strong leadership."
It's important to remember that movements towards freedom normally come during the reign of weak, distracted, or greedy rulers who are not providing for their people. The Sith Empire has had 1000 years under an Emperor who rebuilt them from almost nothing, led them in conquest and glory against their neighbors, returned the Empire to power and then led them in revenge against the Republic. A Republic who had previously attempted to eliminate the Empire's entire existence because of their beliefs. If this was ancient Rome the vast majority of the people would throw the Emperor a victory parade, not ask for representational government.
It's equally important to remember that you don't have to believe in any of this to play on the Empire's side in The Old Republic. You can be the exception to the rule. You are merely making a choice to be someone who was born on that side of the fence. Or, in the case of the Bounty Hunter, someone who tends to work in that part of space. The light side Sith who works tirelessly to make his Empire a better place is a deeply compelling character. The pragmatic Agent who wants nothing more than to protect the millions non-Sith citizens from harm is equally interesting. The Bounty Hunter gets to be his own man and spit right in the face of anyone who he doesn't agree with. Being a good man in a bad place is one of the all time great role-playing options.
So when you roll a character on the Empire side you're going to hear the arguments about why the war is important. You're going to feel the anger of a people who were told they didn't have the right to exist and were chased out of known space. You're going to see the culture that created and maintains their hierarchy and strange form of order. And you're going to make a choice about how much or how little of it your character wants to believe. Then you're going to start making choices. That's when it gets hard.
Hope that helps!"
Thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=5397475#edit5397475
Oddly enough, perhaps I have been brainwashed by the Sith - but in many of the discussions about the Sith and the Jedi, the Jedi are easily pointed out to be the "EVIL" guys. There were similar discussions in regard to WoW with the Horde and the Alliance. It is very easy to make the Horde the good guys and the Alliance the bad guys.
In many conflicts, it is not a case of good fighting evil. No, it is two sides with conflcting views/desires that both believe themselves to be the good guys.
The victor...determines which side is good or bad. The victor rewrites history...with them as the heroes and the other side as the villain.
I see it as no different with the Sith and the Jedi... two sides in conflict, both believing they're the "good" side - the better side.
Many of us see the Sith as the "EVIL" side because the Jedi...the Republic, not the Empire - were the victors. Those are the movies we saw...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
One thing I never understood when Obi-Wan and Anakin was arguing in the end.
"only sith deal in absolutes"
really obi? Because to me it's the Jedi who sounds like christian Crusaders on a quest to the absolute! Not that the sith are wrong, but what really happens when you reject the republic?
The society practicing uncontrollable murder through backstabbing/apprentice elimination can't exist, that's clear.
However, the society setting such backstabbing as a lofty theoretical ideal towards which every memeber of society should aspire, while actually practicing very controlled and safe society where any actual murder were punished strictly and thoroughly, and most people were just cogs in the machine, practicing backstabbing strictly on the level of intriguing (meanwhile imagining themselves Free and Powerful) is very much possible.
In practice it could look like this: we have 3 people, A > B > C . A is kind of an "overlord" and master over B, while B is master over C. C backstabs and kills B, which is all very noble and how it is supposed to be, but in doing so, he harms A, who had plans for B, and now his plans are destroyed and he is diminished and harmed through loss of B. So he punishes C by killing him, which is perfectly in line with Sith philosophy.
So C knows that it's good to kill B... But only for as long as it will not harm A. And killing B will always harm A, unless B disappoints A. So he works under B without trying to kill him and B lives without fear for his life, because they all know that C can't get away with killing B and C isn't stupid. So while everyone is as free to kill everyone else as philosophy of self-enpowerment goes, nobody actually kills anybody because that would be suicide and will certainly not profit anyone.
That situation repeats all the way up and down the chain. Anyone who is breaking the unspoken agreement is seen as a threat by both superiors and inferiors and is weeded out pretty fast.
Only in times of extraordinary turbulence, when the chain is broken already, actual backstabbing ensues... Until new chain is formed.
So, in other words, there is order, there is hierarchy, there is no actual anarchy; philosophy of Sith, while praised and supported, is as applicable to real life as Confucianism to China or actual teachings of Christs to Christians ( Republican Jesus, eh? ) - something which is clearly a Proper Way to Live, but which is not actually, in practice, followed. At least in normal circumstances. Movies do not show normal circumstances.
It is like the difference between Huxley's "Brave new world" and Orwells 1984. I NEVER believed a society as 1984 would function a longer time.
You see, biology itself works against it.
It is true fear is a strong motivator, but only for a short term burst, unless you keep a CONSTANT threatening pressure. Take the Inquisition of the Church as example for long term fear. Or South Korea as you cited. Such a constant fear needs to be upheld, but you pay a price: such a society fall into a state of apathy, lacking any initiative and progress. Fear makes people weak. Thats why.
The reason is this: fear is a stress reaction, which induces adrenaline into your body. It quickens your reactions and gives you short term burst of strength. When the prehistoric man accidentally met a wolf, the body has this stress reaction to allow the human body to be quicker and stronger, for a short time. But if you keep up the stress level continually, it erodes the mental abilities. If you had a test in school ahead of you, and people were constantly pressuring you, it is a guarantee that you fail, because the constant stress in your mind erodes you abilities.
And now a Sith society of constant backstab-danger is exactly that, a society were everyone is under constant stress. That can be enforced. But it would not be a very productive society. The middle aged fear endured, because it had no rival society that was different. The Sith Empire does not have that luxury, it has the Republic and many smaller power groups to rival it. And South Korea only exists in the most extreme isolation possible. For a caveman society or any society level yet based on phsyical strength mostly that may work, but a complex, modern high tech society would crumble under constant stress pressure sooner or later. ... And if you read the SW history, the Sith always DID fail.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I disagree here. many people see the sith/empire as evil because they were. In the original trilogy it was pretty black and white, empire = badguys, dress in black, blow up planets for the hell of it, ect ect. Rebel alliance = good guys, rag tag group who value life and liberty.
It only really got interesting in the expanded universe, when things turned grey, when the story actually became deep. I don't ever remember the first 3 movies talking about how the jedi kidnapped infants and brainwashed them into having no emotions, that came about later.
Don't get me wrong, I loved the movies, grew up on them, played star wars video games (the old terrible ones). But they were no where near as deep as the material has become over the past 10 years. The Star Wars Lucas made was The Lord of the Rings in space. The countless people who wrote books and (more recently) games are the ones who have really given us a deep thought provoking universe.
Everything creates huge amounts of negativity on the internet, that's what the internet is for: Negativity, porn and lolcats.
An interesting sidetrack! I am no Christian, but I do think values of forgivance, honesty, loyality, integrity asf (the typical good values) are making a more efficient society in the long term! So IMVPO these values are also from an egoistic point of view the better ones, because their "evil" opposite rather destroy society and progress. But I really prefer not to elaborate on this here. ^^ Just as a quick note.
Sidenote 2: After reading again the many interesting replies (thanks all to you guys!^^) I felt something personal in this as well. I feel very STRONG that loyality is the most important thing for me. It is a very strong nature of mine, that I seek to be loyal and side with people 100%. (Unless they were psycho muderers or what.) So for me personally, betrayal is the most unthinkable thing to do. Not because of some ideology taught to me, but... I dunno loyality is one of my strongest feelings. It always was, and nothing ever hurt me as much as betrayal or the lack of loyality in others. So maybe it is also from my personal point something I have a great difficulty to imagine. Hm...
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Man I remember buying Super Star Wars for Super Nintendo with my hard earned allowance. That game is still the most difficult game I have ever played. It's like playing Dark Souls.. blindfolded.
Hey guys, great discussion. Just remember not to delve too deep into the religious aspects. Thanks!
Example: I can imagine a situation where a Sith child is "caught" being nice to an animal; perhaps by hugging it or by treating it kindly. The Sith parent would be angry, that anger further fueling the faith ethic. To beat the Sith child within an inch of his life would no doubt give him satisfaction, not regret. Satisfaction in that he knows what he is doing now is a lesson and a furthering of his own abilities as a parent. That child would grow up with that ethos, and grow into a proper Sith.
For a Sith parent, pride would be a more valued emotion to have for their child than love. A Sith parent could never truly love his child I don't think, but would be proud and have a sense of accomplishment their child will grow up strong.
"TO MICHAEL!"
Maybe I am naive, but I can't imagine that no matter how a human is raised, in any sane human there would always be a "true good" that would rebel and cry out against that. Yes, my naive thinking, prolly. ^__^
You see, there is that parable of the Chinese philosopher Mencius. He said, if any human being would see a child walking towards a well, and being in danger to fall into it, it would be the first feeling of every human to feel pity. No matter what people are trained and raised and what feeling would turn in later, that empathy is a part of all human beings. So, that's what I believe as well. I know it sounds probably weird (especially in our days of cynism), but I truly think that empathy is a part of human nature, evil in the Sith sense is not.
Also, I could argue from a logical point of view, that I think it could be proven than most "good values" are logical to make a functioning society which makes progress and that "evil" just is destructive. Though I'd prefer not to go to details in this, I feel quit safe to say that evil is rather a mental illness in the sense that such a person has an illogical lack of sense for reality a distorted sense, so to speak. A sort of neurosis if you want.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
You can't hide from the gun if the gun is the Force. And if you do, you are stronger in the Force, so you have to take your superior's place. It should work, just like in predators packs where the stronger is the leader.
About all human beings having empathy, this is not the case, as the Yue murder video showed us recently.
An honest review of SW:TOR 6/10 (Danny Wojcicki)
Yep, that is pretty naive. lets look back a few hundred years where slavery was a given of the time. No one rebeled and cried out against it, it was just the status quo, the same that I doubt you really feel the need to "rise up" along with PETA against the use of horses as beasts of burden.
You have decided what "true good" is based on your experiences: what you have been told, what you have seen first hand ect. Had you been born as a wealthy white male in America 200 years ago odds are you (same DNA) would have a vastly different view on good and evil.
If you had been kidnapped at the age of 3 and raised as a sith your entire life, the ideas would seem pretty run of the mill, and those facist Jedi would look pretty evil.
Everything creates huge amounts of negativity on the internet, that's what the internet is for: Negativity, porn and lolcats.
I think you are misunderstanding one factor. The Sith are at the top of their respective society, but they only comprise a small segment of that society. So their society succeeds despite their personal needs and actions. All they need to do is instill a sense of pride and superiority in the other, more regular, members of their society. Then manipulate others into supporting their goals.
I almost envision Sith Society as being similar to American society, where the Politicians are the "Sith". And were instead of always using PR they sometimes resort to physical combat. People are encouraged to "follow their passions" here and its not seen as evil in any way. (To an extent some of us even think Greed is "Good".)
Otherwise I do tend to agree that there are many elements of "Sith Doctrine" that do seem questionable. And when I play as a Sith Character it will always be the with aim to be manipulative and deceptive, rather than cruel. But that just stems from my own personal concept that having a "powerful influence" over others makes me stronger. At the same time I don't want to kill everyone, because then I'd have no one to rule over.
Well, the Nazis signed a non-aggression treaty with the USSR then invaded them later. That's evil backstabbing evil right? They both failed... Evil will never truely prevail. Therefore, The Republic will eventually fall. Damn evil robot jedi.
The reason I find that particularly interesting is that just last MONTH, a two-year old Chinese girl was hit head on by a truck, then run over.
The driver (and passenger) in the truck did not stop and kept going. Then the film (yes it was all caught on closed circuit cameras) showed that not only one person, two or three people passed but many people walked, rode or went right around that child in a wide arc to avoid her. As a matter of fact, another truck also ran the child over again, and did not stop.
It took quite some time before a woman came by and actually helped. This was in a public market. The child died in the hospital shortly afterwards needless to say.
I won't say you're naive, but I will say if you want to know what really happens, go to YouTube and type in "chinese" "girl" "run" "over". I wish I could show that Chinese philospher that video and then see what his take on it is.
When you see that video, tell me it's still not plausible that a Sith society raised from birth would ignore that same 2 yr old girl just like these modern day people did who aren't even Sith. In fact, they'd probably do exactly what Anakin did in that temple if they found their own Sith children lacking necessary evil.
I thought about linking the video, but I guarantee if I did, I would be banned. It's that bad, so here's an article instead:
Chinese girl dies in hit-and-run that sparked outrage
"TO MICHAEL!"