Originally posted by Creslin321 Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by Paradigm68 Well I think it can be safely said that humans haven't changed dramatically over the course of the last decade but you can demonstrably point out how mmo's have shifted focus away from game dynamics that encourage positive player interaction. So I say the games are at fault.
There are what, 12 to 16 million more mmorpg players now? Since there are roughly 30 times as many players out there for mmorpg, it can safely be said that the population of mmorpg players has changed dramatically in the last 10 years.
It should also be noted that 'being social' is not stifled in any way in mmorpg. You can be as social as you want to...anybody can. If people wanted to be 'social', they would.
Oh? Really? Imagine two scenarios... Scenario 1: You are placed in a room with 3 other people, you are all asked to work together to solve a puzzle and when you're done, you'll all get $50. Scenario 2: You are placed in a room with 3 other people. There are two boxes in the room and each box contains one ticket. If you retrieve the ticket you get $50 and can leave. After a ticket is taken, it takes 1 hour for a new box with a ticket to appear. Which scenario do you think would make for a better social experience? Scenario 2 is basically what quest MMORPGs are like. There are a bunch of people that have to compete for limited resources, and they know if they don't get the resource before the other guy, they will be stuck waiting for it to respawn.
Except in scenario number two, there are three tickets in the box. If you want to talk to the other two people, you can. Or not, it's your choice.
I can work with people for extended periods of time (and have done so) without saying a word to anyone. You are lamenting the lack of forced interaction, not socialization.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Both but game design encourages players to be more anti-social.
But back in the day people were forced to be social in order to group. Being social with a gun to your head doesn't mean you want to actually be social.
EQ and other early theme parks had forced grouping, but UO and AC didn't. These games were still highly social.
You don'thave to "force" socialization for it to happen. You just have to try not to actively discourage it.
Will a new genre be born, or will another cancer begin spreading?
Who gets to decide which ongoing game design developments are "cancers"?
I vote for me!
I'll vote for you. You seem pretty level-headed from all I've read.
I voted both, but lean toward game design. Over the past 7 years game design has changed, and not for the better, in my opinion. It certainly no longer, over all, encourages socialization or reliance on others in any way really. I don't care for what it's become.
Well I think it can be safely said that humans haven't changed dramatically over the course of the last decade but you can demonstrably point out how mmo's have shifted focus away from game dynamics that encourage positive player interaction. So I say the games are at fault.
There are what, 12 to 16 million more mmorpg players now? Since there are roughly 30 times as many players out there for mmorpg, it can safely be said that the population of mmorpg players has changed dramatically in the last 10 years.
It should also be noted that 'being social' is not stifled in any way in mmorpg. You can be as social as you want to...anybody can. If people wanted to be 'social', they would.
Oh? Really?
Imagine two scenarios...
Scenario 1: You are placed in a room with 3 other people, you are all asked to work together to solve a puzzle and when you're done, you'll all get $50.
Scenario 2: You are placed in a room with 3 other people. There are two boxes in the room and each box contains one ticket. If you retrieve the ticket you get $50 and can leave. After a ticket is taken, it takes 1 hour for a new box with a ticket to appear.
Which scenario do you think would make for a better social experience?
Scenario 2 is basically what quest MMORPGs are like. There are a bunch of people that have to compete for limited resources, and they know if they don't get the resource before the other guy, they will be stuck waiting for it to respawn.
Except in scenario number two, there are three tickets in the box. If you want to talk to the other two people, you can. Or not, it's your choice.
I can work with people for extended periods of time (and have done so) without saying a word to anyone. You are lamenting the lack of forced interaction, not socialization.
I have no idea how you got that from what I wrote.
I was talking about how forcing players to compete over a limited resource creates an adverserial and uncooperative environment.
I never once mentioned anything resembling forced grouping. In fact, one of the people in the puzzle scenario could have just sat out and still got a prize.
It's my fault. I play all games solo even if a group is required. I die a lot. The only games that I have ever grouped in were AC [about a month before I quit it] and DDO [which I play duo with my 7 yr old nephew].
The very things developers put to make it more social (random dungeon finders, ect) tend to be what makes it less social. Its more the players fault then the designer. On paper, random dungeon finder sounds like "Oh, the chance to interact with people you normally wouldn't do so with." Unfortunately, people have shifted into such a strong focus on getting things 'accomplished' they don't wnat to chit chat, they want their free lewt and thats all as quick as possible.
It's my fault. I play all games solo even if a group is required. I die a lot. The only games that I have ever grouped in were AC [about a month before I quit it] and DDO [which I play duo with my 7 yr old nephew].
Three (somewhat contradictory) possibilities I'd like to put out there to think about:
1. ICQ. Before instant messaging, early MMOs were a place where people chatted, openly and honestly. When ICQ came along, it usurped that whole domain. Chat channels were religated to trade spam, scammers and diehards who just felt territorial about their social turf.
2. country-vs-city. In the early days, everyone who found their way into MMOs came from a similar gaming background. It was very easy to find common ground and you really didn't have to worry terribly much about the other person's motives. As the population grew and the wikis and user-friendly UIs combined to leave fewer unanswerable questions, it became harder to find common interests and break into established social circles. Eventually the cost-benefit of trying to strike up a random conversation decayed to the point where it wasn't worth the effort.
3. nostalgia. Maybe people weren't actually all that sociable in the old days either - but people who failed to make any connections just don't talk about it much while those who did make friends don't realize they were lucky they were or how long it took to break the ice.
If the majority of people did not want the way the games are designed, then the majority wouldn't play them.
In the above example why would you blame the developpers for catering to the mass of it's customers. Generally speaking that's how business stay open (especially niches).
I personally enjoy not having to sit around looking for a group or rely on guildies for everything. I enjoy the games I play but I don't have time for LFG etc... etc...
I agree, It is the people the only time you get interaction from others is a hi when group forms or a teabag after you are ganked. I remember in UO,EQ and DAoC getting in groups for the sole purpose of exploring and messing around instead of just using the group like a dirty whore to get your level fixation fed then dropping them.
Forced grouping is tough on casual players. But right now we've gone to the exact opposite extreme, where there is very little reason to ever group until your max level, and then it's only generally to get loot. It's counter-productive to group with players for long periods of time in most modern MMOs, unless you are both on the exact same points of quests. You may group up shortly with someone on the same quest as you, but once your done you go your own ways, and often you don't even group then. Often you'll compete with them for spawns for no reason other than you just don't want to be bothered.
I think the big thing here is encouraging players to be social, without actual forcing it. Public Quests are a good example of this, because players really have zero reason not to work together, and it is helpful if other players do aid them. What results is that even if players don't group up for the public quests, they are in contact with other players. They become familiar with those players, which often leads to a group invite or to some casual banter with people you cross paths with.
A lot of folks who believe that the players are the main cause for games getting less social argue that there has been a large influx of "antisocial" players in the MMORPG community and this has caused the issue.
But this just assumes that these players are antisocial in general...and well, I think that's a big oversimplication of human nature.
People act differently in different environments. That's just how we work. Compare the people you see in an elevator to the people you see in a party where everyone is playing games and having fun.
In an elevator, everyone will be very quiet...sometimes they will even be quiet with people they know well!
But in a party, everyone will be very social and people you don't even know will likely come up to you and talk.
It's the same thing with games. People will act as their environment dictates. If the game facilitates (or requires) socialization, then people will probably be social. If it does not, then they will probably keep to themselves.
Now there is another complexity here...namely that the people are PART of the environment. So if you have a game that has been antisocial due to its design for 3 years, all its players will be antisocial by habit. So if a new player comes in, they will be influenced by the other players.
This makes it difficult for a game to "change" itself to being more social even if the designers want to do that. The culture of the game is already established and the player base may resist social features that are added.
In conclusion though, I think that game design is almost always at the "root" of socialization problems. An antisocial game design can definitely spawn an antisocial player culture that worsens things...but the game design game first.
"There are what, 12 to 16 million more mmorpg players now?"
Apparently there's more ex-wow subscribers now than subscribers so that's 12+ million more who aren't playing.
"I can work with people for extended periods of time (and have done so) without saying a word to anyone."
Would you say you were the socializer type player?
It should also be noted that 'being social' is not stifled in any way in mmorpg. You can be as social as you want to...anybody can. If people wanted to be 'social', they would.
If you're not the socializer type how would you know?
"You are lamenting the lack of forced interaction, not socialization."
What some people see as forced interaction other see as socializing. Two different ypes of people.
Generally speaking i don't think "the players" demand changes. You always have one group who are okay with some aspect of the game and don't complain and a second group who don't like it and do complain. The devs change something to appease complaints and then get shocked at the angry reaction from the people who liked it the way it was. Happens all the time.
Originally posted by Creslin321 Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by Creslin321
Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by Paradigm68 Well I think it can be safely said that humans haven't changed dramatically over the course of the last decade but you can demonstrably point out how mmo's have shifted focus away from game dynamics that encourage positive player interaction. So I say the games are at fault.
There are what, 12 to 16 million more mmorpg players now? Since there are roughly 30 times as many players out there for mmorpg, it can safely be said that the population of mmorpg players has changed dramatically in the last 10 years.
It should also be noted that 'being social' is not stifled in any way in mmorpg. You can be as social as you want to...anybody can. If people wanted to be 'social', they would.
Oh? Really? Imagine two scenarios... Scenario 1: You are placed in a room with 3 other people, you are all asked to work together to solve a puzzle and when you're done, you'll all get $50. Scenario 2: You are placed in a room with 3 other people. There are two boxes in the room and each box contains one ticket. If you retrieve the ticket you get $50 and can leave. After a ticket is taken, it takes 1 hour for a new box with a ticket to appear. Which scenario do you think would make for a better social experience? Scenario 2 is basically what quest MMORPGs are like. There are a bunch of people that have to compete for limited resources, and they know if they don't get the resource before the other guy, they will be stuck waiting for it to respawn.
Except in scenario number two, there are three tickets in the box. If you want to talk to the other two people, you can. Or not, it's your choice.
I can work with people for extended periods of time (and have done so) without saying a word to anyone. You are lamenting the lack of forced interaction, not socialization.
I have no idea how you got that from what I wrote. I was talking about how forcing players to compete over a limited resource creates an adverserial and uncooperative environment. I never once mentioned anything resembling forced grouping. In fact, one of the people in the puzzle scenario could have just sat out and still got a prize.
Scenario #1 = Forced Interaction (not forced grouping, there's a difference). Scenario #2 = Inaccurate representation of how most mmorpg are setup. There's either one box with three tickets, one for each person or there are three boxes, each with a ticket for each person.
In addition to the scenario you've described, if you want it to reflect reality, there would be a sign outside of each box, letting people know what to expect in each box, and at any time the participants can choose to be in one box or the other.
To answer your question though, neither scenario is a good situation for socializing. People socialize when they aren't doing anything else. People don't strike up chats in the middle of a boss fight. Soldiers do not have in depth conversations about last night's episode of 'Grimm' while they are in the middle of a fire fight.
Change how all mmorpg work to include proper social tools and scenarios and you'll see increased socialization. You won't necessarily see increased interactions of the type you've described in scenario #1 though.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Both but game design encourages players to be more anti-social.
But back in the day people were forced to be social in order to group. Being social with a gun to your head doesn't mean you want to actually be social.
EQ and other early theme parks had forced grouping, but UO and AC didn't. These games were still highly social.
You don'thave to "force" socialization for it to happen. You just have to try not to actively discourage it.
I believe in the path of least resistance. Suppose you were in a game and didn't want to be social, how could the devs force you to be social? The devs can't force it and there are tools like general chat that allow players to socialize. So why do players choose not to socialize? If you read any given general chat in games it's pretty clear why many people don't want to hang out their fellow players.
You want better socializing you need a better base community. A community which players want to be a participant in. The devs have zero control over that.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Well I think it can be safely said that humans haven't changed dramatically over the course of the last decade but you can demonstrably point out how mmo's have shifted focus away from game dynamics that encourage positive player interaction. So I say the games are at fault.
There are what, 12 to 16 million more mmorpg players now? Since there are roughly 30 times as many players out there for mmorpg, it can safely be said that the population of mmorpg players has changed dramatically in the last 10 years.
It should also be noted that 'being social' is not stifled in any way in mmorpg. You can be as social as you want to...anybody can. If people wanted to be 'social', they would.
You misunderstood what I meant. The nature of people hasn't changed. I.E. if we were social before but not now and you can point to definite examples of how the games themselves has changed to discourage socializing then its pretty clear that the industry made mmorpg's less social, not the players.
As far as sociability goes its the game environment that can encourage or discourage sociability. If you take human sociability as a steady factor, then how much the environment they are in encourages or discourages socializing can have a big impact. When you factor in the increase of instancing, not just for certain quest areas but for the entire game, along with games that launch with broken or minimally featuered chat clients (which really should be the easiest thing to include), the reduced focus on emotes, non-combat gear, and of course a risk and reward system that doesn't add anything for grouping then its very easy to say that modern mmo's are not encouraging socializing as much as they used to.
This is my favorite example of declining focus of encouraging postive player interaction: In SWG (pre-NGE) you could learn class skills from other players who already knew the skill. Some players would charge for this, others wouldn't but what you had was an in-game dynamic that encouraged people to interact. I know I made friends in-game from either asking someone to teach me a skill or teaching someone else a skill. When the NGE came out, that dynamic was removed from the game. Thus an encouragement for socialability was removed from the game.
Well I think it can be safely said that humans haven't changed dramatically over the course of the last decade but you can demonstrably point out how mmo's have shifted focus away from game dynamics that encourage positive player interaction. So I say the games are at fault.
There are what, 12 to 16 million more mmorpg players now? Since there are roughly 30 times as many players out there for mmorpg, it can safely be said that the population of mmorpg players has changed dramatically in the last 10 years.
It should also be noted that 'being social' is not stifled in any way in mmorpg. You can be as social as you want to...anybody can. If people wanted to be 'social', they would.
Oh? Really?
Imagine two scenarios...
Scenario 1: You are placed in a room with 3 other people, you are all asked to work together to solve a puzzle and when you're done, you'll all get $50.
Scenario 2: You are placed in a room with 3 other people. There are two boxes in the room and each box contains one ticket. If you retrieve the ticket you get $50 and can leave. After a ticket is taken, it takes 1 hour for a new box with a ticket to appear.
Which scenario do you think would make for a better social experience?
Scenario 2 is basically what quest MMORPGs are like. There are a bunch of people that have to compete for limited resources, and they know if they don't get the resource before the other guy, they will be stuck waiting for it to respawn.
Except in scenario number two, there are three tickets in the box. If you want to talk to the other two people, you can. Or not, it's your choice.
I can work with people for extended periods of time (and have done so) without saying a word to anyone. You are lamenting the lack of forced interaction, not socialization.
I have no idea how you got that from what I wrote.
I was talking about how forcing players to compete over a limited resource creates an adverserial and uncooperative environment.
I never once mentioned anything resembling forced grouping. In fact, one of the people in the puzzle scenario could have just sat out and still got a prize.
Scenario #2 = Inaccurate representation of how most mmorpg are setup. There's either one box with three tickets, one for each person or there are three boxes, each with a ticket for each person.
In addition to the scenario you've described, if you want it to reflect reality, there would be a sign outside of each box, letting people know what to expect in each box, and at any time the participants can choose to be in one box or the other.
To answer your question though, neither scenario is a good situation for socializing. People socialize when they aren't doing anything else. People don't strike up chats in the middle of a boss fight. Soldiers do not have in depth conversations about last night's episode of 'Grimm' while they are in the middle of a fire fight.
Change how all mmorpg work to include proper social tools and scenarios and you'll see increased socialization. You won't necessarily see increased interactions of the type you've described in scenario #1 though.
Well I wasn't going for "forced" interaction with scenario one, but I can see how it could be confusing.
So just to clarify, imagine scenario one to be there are 4 people in a room with a bunch of games...some are multiplayer some are singleplayer. They just have to play (anything) for an hour and they get a prize...no forced interaction there .
Also, I do really think scenario 2 is accurate for most quest-node MMORPGs. There are quests where you have to collect 10 rat tails or something and there are only so many rats. If another player is in your area, you are competing with them. There are quests where you have to retrieve some object and there's only one of them. If another player gets to it first, you have to wait for it to respawn...this is pretty typical. If you played ANY quest-node MMORPG you should be familiar with these kind of quests.
So in quest-node MMORPGs, players become something you want to actively avoid because they can only slow you down. THIS actively discourages socialization.
Will a new genre be born, or will another cancer begin spreading?
Who gets to decide which ongoing game design developments are "cancers"?
I vote for me!
Heh, I spent a moment trying to decide if I wanted to say cancer or just go with virus. I did not want anybody blaming me though - so I went with cancer...
...though, I think cancer does fit better. Viruses tend to be more - rational/logical - more controlled.
Introduce a virus, and you generally know what it is going to do.
Introduce a cancer, and well - who knows where it's going.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
I think it's both but really more player driven in my opinion. People don't seem to want to group anymore unless they have to. I think dungeon finders came about from people whining they couldn't get groups or hated shouting for or forming their own. Those folks got their wish but I think it went further than people thought it would in making games less social. If people wanted to though they could group up, I just think most don't. I've seen it in many games I've played over the last few years. I do miss the games from some years back but not for nostalgia reasons, mainly because grouping was more prevalent.
Three (somewhat contradictory) possibilities I'd like to put out there to think about:
1. ICQ. Before instant messaging, early MMOs were a place where people chatted, openly and honestly. When ICQ came along, it usurped that whole domain. Chat channels were religated to trade spam, scammers and diehards who just felt territorial about their social turf.
2. country-vs-city. In the early days, everyone who found their way into MMOs came from a similar gaming background. It was very easy to find common ground and you really didn't have to worry terribly much about the other person's motives. As the population grew and the wikis and user-friendly UIs combined to leave fewer unanswerable questions, it became harder to find common interests and break into established social circles. Eventually the cost-benefit of trying to strike up a random conversation decayed to the point where it wasn't worth the effort.
3. nostalgia. Maybe people weren't actually all that sociable in the old days either - but people who failed to make any connections just don't talk about it much while those who did make friends don't realize they were lucky they were or how long it took to break the ice.
I think you may be missing the different types of player aspect. Socializers do all that stuff naturally as long as there's a critical mass of them.
You guys are all foolish , And i guess to old to keep up .
Game now are far ore social than ever befor . maybe these 2 or 3 you just joined group with havent said 1 word to you in 2 hours of questing together , doesnt make them anti-social , Just means most likely there on Vent , TS , Wave , google voice ,or google talk ,
Gamers today dont just share there type in game they share there voice , there image . theres always someone typing chatting or pulling my attention to the google talk cam window while im playing my games . i myself very seldom even look at the games own chat bar . why games put crappy chat bars in every game . turbine is the only one thats came close to a 1/2 ass good ingame chat bar.
while deal with sub-par chat that the game provides , all the spam and stupid emotions icon crap . when i can just turn the games chat off and use a 3rd party chat opption ?
Just because there not being social with you in no way means there being unsocial as a whole.
You guys are all foolish , And i guess to old to keep up .
Game now are far ore social than ever befor . maybe these 2 or 3 you just joined group with havent said 1 word to you in 2 hours of questing together , doesnt make them anti-social , Just means most likely there on Vent , TS , Wave , google voice ,or google talk ,
Gamers today dont just share there type in game they share there voice , there image . theres always someone typing chatting or pulling my attention to the google talk cam window while im playing my games . i myself very seldom even look at the games own chat bar . why games put crappy chat bars in every game . turbine is the only one thats came close to a 1/2 ass good ingame chat bar.
while deal with sub-par chat that the game provides , all the spam and stupid emotions icon crap . when i can just turn the games chat off and use a 3rd party chat opption ?
Just because there not being social with you in no way means there being unsocial as a whole.
Um, just because they are being social with each other - does not mean they are being social in the game. If you're taking the social out of the game, then the game no longer matters. They're just being social. Even there, they're only being social with each other - a small group - in what is supposed to be a massively multiplayer game.
I get a friend to play with me. One of us plays a tank/dps and one of us plays a heal/dps. We spend hours each day playing together. We're very social...together. What about the hundreds upon hundreds if not thousands upon thousands of other people in the game world...?
...they might as well not exist.
But we're being social!
Not.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Comments
Cancer = The uncontrolled replication of cells.
Replace "cell" with "theme park" or "WoW clone"
.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
There are what, 12 to 16 million more mmorpg players now? Since there are roughly 30 times as many players out there for mmorpg, it can safely be said that the population of mmorpg players has changed dramatically in the last 10 years.
It should also be noted that 'being social' is not stifled in any way in mmorpg. You can be as social as you want to...anybody can. If people wanted to be 'social', they would.
Oh? Really?
Imagine two scenarios...
Scenario 1: You are placed in a room with 3 other people, you are all asked to work together to solve a puzzle and when you're done, you'll all get $50.
Scenario 2: You are placed in a room with 3 other people. There are two boxes in the room and each box contains one ticket. If you retrieve the ticket you get $50 and can leave. After a ticket is taken, it takes 1 hour for a new box with a ticket to appear.
Which scenario do you think would make for a better social experience?
Scenario 2 is basically what quest MMORPGs are like. There are a bunch of people that have to compete for limited resources, and they know if they don't get the resource before the other guy, they will be stuck waiting for it to respawn.
Except in scenario number two, there are three tickets in the box. If you want to talk to the other two people, you can. Or not, it's your choice.
I can work with people for extended periods of time (and have done so) without saying a word to anyone. You are lamenting the lack of forced interaction, not socialization.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
EQ and other early theme parks had forced grouping, but UO and AC didn't. These games were still highly social.
You don't have to "force" socialization for it to happen. You just have to try not to actively discourage it.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
I'll vote for you. You seem pretty level-headed from all I've read.
I voted both, but lean toward game design. Over the past 7 years game design has changed, and not for the better, in my opinion. It certainly no longer, over all, encourages socialization or reliance on others in any way really. I don't care for what it's become.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
I have no idea how you got that from what I wrote.
I was talking about how forcing players to compete over a limited resource creates an adverserial and uncooperative environment.
I never once mentioned anything resembling forced grouping. In fact, one of the people in the puzzle scenario could have just sat out and still got a prize.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
It's my fault. I play all games solo even if a group is required. I die a lot. The only games that I have ever grouped in were AC [about a month before I quit it] and DDO [which I play duo with my 7 yr old nephew].
<p align=center><a target=_blank href=http://www.nodiatis.com/personality.htm><img border=0 src=http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/20.jpg></a></p>;
The very things developers put to make it more social (random dungeon finders, ect) tend to be what makes it less social. Its more the players fault then the designer. On paper, random dungeon finder sounds like "Oh, the chance to interact with people you normally wouldn't do so with." Unfortunately, people have shifted into such a strong focus on getting things 'accomplished' they don't wnat to chit chat, they want their free lewt and thats all as quick as possible.
You ruined it for all of us!!!
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Three (somewhat contradictory) possibilities I'd like to put out there to think about:
1. ICQ. Before instant messaging, early MMOs were a place where people chatted, openly and honestly. When ICQ came along, it usurped that whole domain. Chat channels were religated to trade spam, scammers and diehards who just felt territorial about their social turf.
2. country-vs-city. In the early days, everyone who found their way into MMOs came from a similar gaming background. It was very easy to find common ground and you really didn't have to worry terribly much about the other person's motives. As the population grew and the wikis and user-friendly UIs combined to leave fewer unanswerable questions, it became harder to find common interests and break into established social circles. Eventually the cost-benefit of trying to strike up a random conversation decayed to the point where it wasn't worth the effort.
3. nostalgia. Maybe people weren't actually all that sociable in the old days either - but people who failed to make any connections just don't talk about it much while those who did make friends don't realize they were lucky they were or how long it took to break the ice.
I agree, It is the people the only time you get interaction from others is a hi when group forms or a teabag after you are ganked. I remember in UO,EQ and DAoC getting in groups for the sole purpose of exploring and messing around instead of just using the group like a dirty whore to get your level fixation fed then dropping them.
Forced grouping is tough on casual players. But right now we've gone to the exact opposite extreme, where there is very little reason to ever group until your max level, and then it's only generally to get loot. It's counter-productive to group with players for long periods of time in most modern MMOs, unless you are both on the exact same points of quests. You may group up shortly with someone on the same quest as you, but once your done you go your own ways, and often you don't even group then. Often you'll compete with them for spawns for no reason other than you just don't want to be bothered.
I think the big thing here is encouraging players to be social, without actual forcing it. Public Quests are a good example of this, because players really have zero reason not to work together, and it is helpful if other players do aid them. What results is that even if players don't group up for the public quests, they are in contact with other players. They become familiar with those players, which often leads to a group invite or to some casual banter with people you cross paths with.
https://www.therepopulation.com - Sci Fi Sandbox.
Both but a bit more on the player side..
"Solo friendly" makes most of MMOs a total mess.. But it's the players in the end that makes the community...
A lot of folks who believe that the players are the main cause for games getting less social argue that there has been a large influx of "antisocial" players in the MMORPG community and this has caused the issue.
But this just assumes that these players are antisocial in general...and well, I think that's a big oversimplication of human nature.
People act differently in different environments. That's just how we work. Compare the people you see in an elevator to the people you see in a party where everyone is playing games and having fun.
In an elevator, everyone will be very quiet...sometimes they will even be quiet with people they know well!
But in a party, everyone will be very social and people you don't even know will likely come up to you and talk.
It's the same thing with games. People will act as their environment dictates. If the game facilitates (or requires) socialization, then people will probably be social. If it does not, then they will probably keep to themselves.
Now there is another complexity here...namely that the people are PART of the environment. So if you have a game that has been antisocial due to its design for 3 years, all its players will be antisocial by habit. So if a new player comes in, they will be influenced by the other players.
This makes it difficult for a game to "change" itself to being more social even if the designers want to do that. The culture of the game is already established and the player base may resist social features that are added.
In conclusion though, I think that game design is almost always at the "root" of socialization problems. An antisocial game design can definitely spawn an antisocial player culture that worsens things...but the game design game first.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Because they haven't. It's all in your head and you've gone mad, mad I say.
@lizardbones
"There are what, 12 to 16 million more mmorpg players now?"
Apparently there's more ex-wow subscribers now than subscribers so that's 12+ million more who aren't playing.
"I can work with people for extended periods of time (and have done so) without saying a word to anyone."
Would you say you were the socializer type player?
It should also be noted that 'being social' is not stifled in any way in mmorpg. You can be as social as you want to...anybody can. If people wanted to be 'social', they would.
If you're not the socializer type how would you know?
"You are lamenting the lack of forced interaction, not socialization."
What some people see as forced interaction other see as socializing. Two different ypes of people.
Generally speaking i don't think "the players" demand changes. You always have one group who are okay with some aspect of the game and don't complain and a second group who don't like it and do complain. The devs change something to appease complaints and then get shocked at the angry reaction from the people who liked it the way it was. Happens all the time.
There are what, 12 to 16 million more mmorpg players now? Since there are roughly 30 times as many players out there for mmorpg, it can safely be said that the population of mmorpg players has changed dramatically in the last 10 years.
It should also be noted that 'being social' is not stifled in any way in mmorpg. You can be as social as you want to...anybody can. If people wanted to be 'social', they would.
Oh? Really?
Imagine two scenarios...
Scenario 1: You are placed in a room with 3 other people, you are all asked to work together to solve a puzzle and when you're done, you'll all get $50.
Scenario 2: You are placed in a room with 3 other people. There are two boxes in the room and each box contains one ticket. If you retrieve the ticket you get $50 and can leave. After a ticket is taken, it takes 1 hour for a new box with a ticket to appear.
Which scenario do you think would make for a better social experience?
Scenario 2 is basically what quest MMORPGs are like. There are a bunch of people that have to compete for limited resources, and they know if they don't get the resource before the other guy, they will be stuck waiting for it to respawn.
Except in scenario number two, there are three tickets in the box. If you want to talk to the other two people, you can. Or not, it's your choice.
I can work with people for extended periods of time (and have done so) without saying a word to anyone. You are lamenting the lack of forced interaction, not socialization.
I have no idea how you got that from what I wrote.
I was talking about how forcing players to compete over a limited resource creates an adverserial and uncooperative environment.
I never once mentioned anything resembling forced grouping. In fact, one of the people in the puzzle scenario could have just sat out and still got a prize.
Scenario #1 = Forced Interaction (not forced grouping, there's a difference).
Scenario #2 = Inaccurate representation of how most mmorpg are setup. There's either one box with three tickets, one for each person or there are three boxes, each with a ticket for each person.
In addition to the scenario you've described, if you want it to reflect reality, there would be a sign outside of each box, letting people know what to expect in each box, and at any time the participants can choose to be in one box or the other.
To answer your question though, neither scenario is a good situation for socializing. People socialize when they aren't doing anything else. People don't strike up chats in the middle of a boss fight. Soldiers do not have in depth conversations about last night's episode of 'Grimm' while they are in the middle of a fire fight.
Change how all mmorpg work to include proper social tools and scenarios and you'll see increased socialization. You won't necessarily see increased interactions of the type you've described in scenario #1 though.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I believe in the path of least resistance. Suppose you were in a game and didn't want to be social, how could the devs force you to be social? The devs can't force it and there are tools like general chat that allow players to socialize. So why do players choose not to socialize? If you read any given general chat in games it's pretty clear why many people don't want to hang out their fellow players.
You want better socializing you need a better base community. A community which players want to be a participant in. The devs have zero control over that.
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https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
You misunderstood what I meant. The nature of people hasn't changed. I.E. if we were social before but not now and you can point to definite examples of how the games themselves has changed to discourage socializing then its pretty clear that the industry made mmorpg's less social, not the players.
As far as sociability goes its the game environment that can encourage or discourage sociability. If you take human sociability as a steady factor, then how much the environment they are in encourages or discourages socializing can have a big impact. When you factor in the increase of instancing, not just for certain quest areas but for the entire game, along with games that launch with broken or minimally featuered chat clients (which really should be the easiest thing to include), the reduced focus on emotes, non-combat gear, and of course a risk and reward system that doesn't add anything for grouping then its very easy to say that modern mmo's are not encouraging socializing as much as they used to.
This is my favorite example of declining focus of encouraging postive player interaction: In SWG (pre-NGE) you could learn class skills from other players who already knew the skill. Some players would charge for this, others wouldn't but what you had was an in-game dynamic that encouraged people to interact. I know I made friends in-game from either asking someone to teach me a skill or teaching someone else a skill. When the NGE came out, that dynamic was removed from the game. Thus an encouragement for socialability was removed from the game.
Well I wasn't going for "forced" interaction with scenario one, but I can see how it could be confusing.
So just to clarify, imagine scenario one to be there are 4 people in a room with a bunch of games...some are multiplayer some are singleplayer. They just have to play (anything) for an hour and they get a prize...no forced interaction there
.
Also, I do really think scenario 2 is accurate for most quest-node MMORPGs. There are quests where you have to collect 10 rat tails or something and there are only so many rats. If another player is in your area, you are competing with them. There are quests where you have to retrieve some object and there's only one of them. If another player gets to it first, you have to wait for it to respawn...this is pretty typical. If you played ANY quest-node MMORPG you should be familiar with these kind of quests.
So in quest-node MMORPGs, players become something you want to actively avoid because they can only slow you down. THIS actively discourages socialization.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Heh, I spent a moment trying to decide if I wanted to say cancer or just go with virus. I did not want anybody blaming me though - so I went with cancer...
...though, I think cancer does fit better. Viruses tend to be more - rational/logical - more controlled.
Introduce a virus, and you generally know what it is going to do.
Introduce a cancer, and well - who knows where it's going.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
I think you may be missing the different types of player aspect. Socializers do all that stuff naturally as long as there's a critical mass of them.
Games follow a trend so it is the players that decide the trend and so it's the players fault.
You guys are all foolish , And i guess to old to keep up .
Game now are far ore social than ever befor . maybe these 2 or 3 you just joined group with havent said 1 word to you in 2 hours of questing together , doesnt make them anti-social , Just means most likely there on Vent , TS , Wave , google voice ,or google talk ,
Gamers today dont just share there type in game they share there voice , there image . theres always someone typing chatting or pulling my attention to the google talk cam window while im playing my games . i myself very seldom even look at the games own chat bar . why games put crappy chat bars in every game . turbine is the only one thats came close to a 1/2 ass good ingame chat bar.
while deal with sub-par chat that the game provides , all the spam and stupid emotions icon crap . when i can just turn the games chat off and use a 3rd party chat opption ?
Just because there not being social with you in no way means there being unsocial as a whole.
Um, just because they are being social with each other - does not mean they are being social in the game. If you're taking the social out of the game, then the game no longer matters. They're just being social. Even there, they're only being social with each other - a small group - in what is supposed to be a massively multiplayer game.
I get a friend to play with me. One of us plays a tank/dps and one of us plays a heal/dps. We spend hours each day playing together. We're very social...together. What about the hundreds upon hundreds if not thousands upon thousands of other people in the game world...?
...they might as well not exist.
But we're being social!
Not.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%