Besides, Who the hell hasn't played WOW? That would make 90% of the MMO comunity "The WOW Crowd".
I think alot of people hate on Warcraft because they can't find there own MMO, It makes them bubble inside with anger.
I haven't played WoW beyond a 14 day trial
But more to answer the OP. The "WoW crowd" is a marketing demographic, and it's just how marketing works. Logically you do what works. You aim for a market share, especially in such a high stakes market as MMO-making. You see the reason why Blizzard was able to improve of EQ features while still mostly copying it is because they had the financial backing to be in development longer and to really have improved features ready at release. They also had a loyal customer base that ensured a good majority of the initial box-sales.
Imagine asking investors to believe in you when your plans are to do "something totally different" and your justification for the plan is "because WoW players would like to play something different." No matter how right you may be because the desires of the masses are rarely logical or consistant. It's hard to see the logic in that.
It's much easier to say to investors. Here's how we are going to attract a large customer base with these similarities to WoW, and then say these are the changes we'll make to this proven system that make our game unique and better. And see it's all on paper for that initial pitch so you can promise some pretty amazing, game changing things, but developers rarely realize the ammount of work it takes just to get a functioning WoW clone much less an improvment of it.
"I will not play it nor any other MMO until they make it possible to obtain the best gear without forcing people to group up to do so." SwampRob
I always laff when someone quotes WoW as haveing 12million subs . the 12mil + subs is counting every sub that was ever on the game , including test run accounts.
real paying every month and playong every month subs are less then 500k far less .
STOP FEEDING THE HYPE ................... thats 99% of whats wrong with every game in the world today , all you half wits keep feeding the hype
500,000? Really?
Wasn't it 12m then dropped to 10m? If Wow was 500k subs it would be free to play. You are way WAY off the mark.
When I played Rift I was shocked by awful, rude and always whining player base. Most of the worst of them were making comparisons to WoW, adding sometimes that they were bored of that game. Based on my absolutely negative experience in Rift I dare say that there is WoW crowd. You can call it new generation of MMO players or whatever you like but 10 years ago you did not meet cunts like I met in Rift. There were a few but community usually labelled and excluded them. Mind, I'm from EU and EU servers tend to be better in that regard. I don't even want to think what was going on in US servers.
I take this as it is and will turn general chat off in SWTOR and only chat with my guild members. As a popular game SWTOR will attract tons of those WoW burnouts, bringng all the shite with them.
I actually find this comment interesting.
There is an Anit-Blizzard crowd here on these forums. (Nothing unusual because there is and Anti-TOR crowd and and ant-Mortal Online crowd or pretty much any game. It just happends that WoW is the most successful P2P MMO on the market, so it has the biggest "ant-crowd" against it)
What I find interesting is, ever since I have come to this site, people have been talking about the "WoW Killer," you know, that MMO Boogie man that comes with every new MMO that looks promicing. AoC is the WoW Killer, TOR is the WoW Killer, Rift is the WoW killer... and so on.
Basically what they are saying is; when this new game comes out, people playing WoW are going to stop playing World of Warcraft and play the new game. They say this gleefully. Championing the Idea that WoW is going to die... Finally.
But then, when they play the new game, they point the finger at anything they don't like and blame it all on "The WoW crowd." (Although ususally not in those words)
If former WoW players coming to your game is "Ruining it" Why are you gleefully cheering on the idea that your game is going to be a WoW killer and take subs from WoW? I don't understand that rational.
Either you should want Wow players leave World of Warcraft to come to your game and be happy for their arrival -OR- you should want players who play WoW to continue to enjoy their game and your game pick up new MMO players that haven't played WoW before.
It should be one or the other, Not my game is going to kill WoW, but I don't want any former WoW players to play here. Doesn't make sense to me.
I always laff when someone quotes WoW as haveing 12million subs . the 12mil + subs is counting every sub that was ever on the game , including test run accounts.
real paying every month and playong every month subs are less then 500k far less .
STOP FEEDING THE HYPE ................... thats 99% of whats wrong with every game in the world today , all you half wits keep feeding the hype
I always facepalm when I read something like this as the definition as been stated over and over and over and verified by countless other sources, and falls in line with quartely report earnings.
Activision Blizzard is a worldwide online, personal computer ("PC"), console, handheld, and mobile game publisher of interactive entertainment. Through Activision Publishing, Inc. ("Activision"), we are a leading international publisher of interactive software products and content. Activision develops and publishes video games on various consoles, handheld platforms and the PC platform through internally developed franchises and license agreements. Activision currently offers games that operate on the Sony Computer Entertainment Inc. ("Sony") PlayStation 3 ("PS3"), Nintendo Co. Ltd. ("Nintendo") Wii ("Wii"), and Microsoft Corporation ("Microsoft") Xbox 360 ("Xbox 360") console systems; Nintendo Dual Screen ("NDS") and Nintendo DSi ("DSi") handheld devices; the PC; the Apple iPhone ("iPhone"), the Apple iPad ("iPad") and other mobile devices. Through Blizzard Entertainment, Inc. ... More ...
this is .. for a lack of a better word WOW... World of Warcraft came out what 2004? The year now is what? 2011 almost 2012.
People still posting HAHA anything about World of WarCraft..
Blizzard pulled a "RICK ROLL" on you. Ever hear of "any publicity is good publicity".
Guys get over it. There is nothing anyone can ever do. Like it, hate it World Of Warcraft was,is, always will be the best MMO there ever was. Others didnt even come close.
I love the "Sources" for the info ...does it even matter anymore? Are you NEW to World of WarCraft? its old..we all know it..sorry from this thread seems most still talk as if World Of Warcraft just came out last year.... its dying (slowly) but dying.
I think the problem is Blizzard themselves believe in the WoW crowd and so do other developers . If you dumb it down they will come .
WoW was doing well before the dumbed down spoonfed agenda of recent years . It may have done even better if it had stuck to it guns and hadn't tried to target certain demographics .
I think the problem is Blizzard themselves believe in the WoW crowd and so do other developers . If you dumb it down they will come .
WoW was doing well before the dumbed down spoonfed agenda of recent years . It may have done even better if it had stuck to it guns and hadn't tried to target certain demographics .
Now this I agree with.
More to the point, there has been a bit of a back lash from the WoW community about how easy Wow had become, so Blizzard made the Heroics and Raids a bit more difficult in Cata. In fact I still wipe when I pug ZA or ZG just like I used to Wipe when I did Gnomer. I used to say, "It isn't Gnomer unless you wipe at least once.
I hope Blizzard continues this trend, back to making Heroics and Raids more difficult, the same way old Dungeons used to actually wipe groups. (Instead of how it is now for the old dungeons, the tank just goes forward through the dungeon as fast as he can and doesn't even bother to wait to see if anyone is following him like it is now)
I always laff when someone quotes WoW as haveing 12million subs . the 12mil + subs is counting every sub that was ever on the game , including test run accounts.
real paying every month and playong every month subs are less then 500k far less .
STOP FEEDING THE HYPE ................... thats 99% of whats wrong with every game in the world today , all you half wits keep feeding the hype
I always facepalm when I read something like this as the definition as been stated over and over and over and verified by countless other sources, and falls in line with quartely report earnings.
Venge
You do realize that on their statements the area on the Statements Of Operations is "Subscription, licensing, and other revenues" not just Subscriptions. Also, the reports do not say where the subscriptions come from, but it does say that Asia numbers are included in that "Subscription, licensing, and other revenues" field. On top of that, money made in Asia, money made in NA, and money made in EU are all reported on the same statement. Its not seperate.
That brings me down to my question. How could you possibly think that all 12 million subs fall under the US customer base?
EDIT: Subscription Revenues
Subscription revenues are derived from World of Warcraft , a game that is playable through Blizzard’s servers on a subscription-only basis. After the first month of free usage that is included with the World of Warcraft boxed software, the World of Warcraft end user may enter into a subscription agreement for additional future access. Revenues associated with the sale of subscriptions via boxed software and prepaid subscription cards, as well as prepaid subscriptions sales, are deferred until the subscription service is activated by the consumer and recognized ratably over the subscription period. Revenue from internet gaming rooms in Asia is recognized upon usage of the time packages sold. Value-added service revenues associated with subscriptions are recognized ratably over the estimated service periods.
This is Actiblizz's definition of Subscription Revenues directly from their statements. Notice that bit about Asia at the end?
I would also like to point out that blizzard says for the three months ending in June of 2011 their total Online Subscription Revenue is $359 Million (page 19.) If you do the basic math, (359/15)/3 then you come out with about 8 million. Meaning WoW may only have 8 million subs (as this number is ALL subscriptions the company has). And even that includes more than just subcriptions: " including subscriptions, boxed products, expansion packs, licensing royalties, and value-added services"
Learn to read financial statements before you try to use them as proof of something.
I want to try to dispel the perception that we're stuck with WoW clones because they are the only games with a chance at success. I don't believe that this "WoW Crowd" dominates the market as so many others do.
So what are your thoughts? After reading my counters to common arguments, do you agree or disagree?
You're comparing single-player games to multiplayer online games. If your suggestion is that an MMO that is instanced, single-player focused and challenging would do well, then I agree. Other than that, the argument falls apart when you figure in
- lack of save points
- influence of and conflict with other players
- online connection speed/stability
- persistant state world that was in motion before the player arrived and still needs to be playable once he leaves.
Dark Souls actually has every single one of those things you mentioned except for a persistent state world. I think the line between single player games and MMO games is blurrier than many think. In fact, playing a game like Borderlands almost feels identical to playing a modern MMORPG...the only difference is that you don't randomly run into people while you're in your own little quest bubble.
That I think is a major differnence. An MMO *must have* other people. Whether you do anything with them is another factor but there must be other people
True, but even given that I don't think that single player games are so different that they can't be compared with MMORPGs. I actually think some single player games are strikingly similar to MMORPGs...especially modern ones.
It's not like comparing SPRPGs to MMORPGs is an apples to oranges comparison. It's more like a Gala apples to Granny Smith apples comparison.
It's actually very different. The persistent state world is the issue, as there is a massive leap from telling a tale from start to finish and creating a world of tales that have thousands of people beginning at thousands of differnt points throughout.
In a CRPG, single or multiplayer, the person or group is given a controlled environment, with all participants working toward the same goal and being managed within the same world and timeline. In an MMORPG, none of those constants are there. Not only do you have different and even conflicting goals, but you also have a scenario where your 1,000 players can all be at completely different timelines in the story. The most basic example of that is killing a boss. In the controlled environment of single/multiplayer CRPGs, you can kill the boss and leave his corpse to slowly rot as the game goes on - a scenario that would suck for Adventure Group Two in an MMO and the thousands of other groups to reach that monster's lair and find nothing but a dead dragon and empty chests.
An aside on Dark Souls specifically: the game autosaves after major encounters.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I always laff when someone quotes WoW as haveing 12million subs . the 12mil + subs is counting every sub that was ever on the game , including test run accounts.
real paying every month and playong every month subs are less then 500k far less .
STOP FEEDING THE HYPE ................... thats 99% of whats wrong with every game in the world today , all you half wits keep feeding the hype
I always facepalm when I read something like this as the definition as been stated over and over and over and verified by countless other sources, and falls in line with quartely report earnings.
Activision Blizzard is a worldwide online, personal computer ("PC"), console, handheld, and mobile game publisher of interactive entertainment. Through Activision Publishing, Inc. ("Activision"), we are a leading international publisher of interactive software products and content. Activision develops and publishes video games on various consoles, handheld platforms and the PC platform through internally developed franchises and license agreements. Activision currently offers games that operate on the Sony Computer Entertainment Inc. ("Sony") PlayStation 3 ("PS3"), Nintendo Co. Ltd. ("Nintendo") Wii ("Wii"), and Microsoft Corporation ("Microsoft") Xbox 360 ("Xbox 360") console systems; Nintendo Dual Screen ("NDS") and Nintendo DSi ("DSi") handheld devices; the PC; the Apple iPhone ("iPhone"), the Apple iPad ("iPad") and other mobile devices. Through Blizzard Entertainment, Inc. ... More ...
im not pulling the numbers out of my butt like the online site that are fluffing the hype the days of $52.27 a share are long long past
You realize that nothing you posted seems to point to only 500,000 subscribers right?
I mean this section alone:
All amounts set forth in the following tables are in millions, except per share data.
For the Years Ended December 31,
2010
2009
2008
2007
2006
Statement of Operations Data:
Net Revenues
$
4,447
$
4,279
$
3,026
$
1,349
$
1,018
Net income (loss)
418
(1)
113
(2)
(107
)
227
139
Basic net income (loss) per share(3)
0.34
0.09
(0.11
)
0.38
0.24
Diluted net income (loss) per share(3)
0.33
0.09
(0.11
)
0.38
0.24
Cash dividends declared per share(4)
0.15
—
—
—
—
Balance Sheet Data:
Total assets
$
13,406
$
13,742
$
14,465
$
879
$
758
Points to 4 billions dollars in revenue - which is a heck of a lot moren 500,000 subscribers would bring in. Yes I know this is activiation/blizzard and not just activition - still 4 billion dollars is a lot more than 90 million which is what 500,000 would bring even if all of them paid $15/month.
Or here:
Business Results and Highlights
Notwithstanding the above-mentioned industry dynamics, Activision Blizzard's overall results were strong in 2010. Consolidated net revenues were $4.447 billion, and consolidated net income was $418 million, which included a $326 million non-cash pre-tax charge from the impairment of finite-lived intangible assets reflecting the impact of the weaker sales in the casual and music genres.
Or here, again from your date showing Blizards net revenues as 1.6 billions - again more than 500,000 subscribers per year would bring.
2010
2009
2008
Increase/
(decrease)
2010 v 2009
Increase/
(decrease)
2009 v 2008
Segment net revenues:
Activision
$
2,769
$
3,156
$
2,152
$
(387
)
$
1,004
Blizzard
1,656
1,196
1,343
460
(147
)
Distribution
378
423
227
(45
)
196
Operating segment net revenue total
4,803
4,775
3,722
28
1,053
Reconciliation to consolidated net revenues:
Net effect from deferral of net revenues
(356
)
(497
)
(713
)
141
216
Other*
—
1
17
(1
)
(16
)
Consolidated net revenues
$
4,447
$
4,279
$
3,026
$
168
$
1,253
Segment income from operations:
Activision
$
511
$
663
$
307
$
(152
)
$
356
Blizzard
850
555
704
295
(149
)
Distribution
10
16
22
(6
)
(6
)
Operating segment income from operations total
1,371
1,234
1,033
137
201
Reconciliation to consolidated operating (loss) income:
Net effect from deferral of net revenues and related cost of sales
(319
)
(383
)
(496
)
64
113
Stock-based compensation expense
(131
)
(154
)
(90
)
23
(64
)
Restructuring
(3
)
(23
)
(93
)
20
70
Amortization of intangible assets and purchase price accounting related adjustments
(123
)
(259
)
(292
)
136
33
Impairment of intangible assets
(326
)
(409
)
—
83
(409
)
Integration and transaction costs
—
(24
)
(29
)
24
5
Other*
—
(8
)
(266
)
8
258
Total consolidated operating income (loss)
$
469
$
(26
)
$
(233
)
$
495
$
207
or this, again from your data.
Blizzard
Blizzard's net revenues increased for 2010 as compared to 2009 primarily as a result of the release of World of Warcraft: Cataclysm in the fourth quarter of 2010 and StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty in the third quarter of 2010. The increase in net revenues also reflects growth in sales of value-added services related to World of Warcraft , which consist of transactions such as realm transfers, faction changes, and other character customizations within the World of Warcraft gameplay. The China region business was also back online for the full year of 2010 and Blizzard successfully launched World of Warcraft: Wrath of the Lich King in China in August 2010.
In other words maybe you should actually try reading the links your provide.
Venge
edit - @marin are you talking to me or him. I don't think that the 12 million (or 8 or 10 million now) are all U.S. They are worldwide. With ~60% being Asia.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Look at my post and you will see that your missing part of your info. I'm in no way shape or form am I saying that WoW only has 500,000 subscribers in the US. I think that guys a little off. But what I am saying is that WoW does NOT have 12,000,000 in the US>
Look at my post and you will see that your missing part of your info. I'm in no way shape or form am I saying that WoW only has 500,000 subscribers in the US. I think that guys a little off. But what I am saying is that WoW does NOT have 12,000,000 in the US>
I never stated, nor believed, nor implied that 12 million are U.S. Nothing of the sort, dont believe it. They are worldwide. I don't think I've ever seen anyone state that they have/had 12 million from the U.S. alone.
However he didn't state that. He stated they don't have 12 million, only 500,000 and again did not mention anything about regions.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Look at my post and you will see that your missing part of your info. I'm in no way shape or form am I saying that WoW only has 500,000 subscribers in the US. I think that guys a little off. But what I am saying is that WoW does NOT have 12,000,000 in the US>
I never stated, nor believed, nor implied that 12 million are U.S. Nothing of the sort, dont believe it. They are worldwide.
My appologies then. I had thought you were implying those were all US subscriptions and that the Asian model of payment was covered under some other catagory or place.
Edit; Just saw your edit, not sure where I got the region thing from. But from my math they have no more than 8 million subscriptions right now. But I'm sure its less than that as the number includes things like box sales.
Its your virtual world you believe the hype the way wou want , I cant see and plus side to trying to get you to understand , so sure ill agree WOW has 9 billion subcribers and heads the has the ear of the pope .
Go join a beta of any game almost, that has a good amount of people in it....See what is all that they talk about in the world chat...WoW...WoW has this...WoW did that.....WoW is much better, this game sucks.....WoW has more content....WoW...WoW...WoW.....
They must all be paid by 'the man', that keeps this myth alive!
Hey this is my experience though, yours may vary, but I can only go by what I see and read...
If this is what makes one part of the WoW crowd, then I guess I'm in it too lol...
Here's the problem.
Nearly all games are theme parks that directly copy most of WoW's features but leave some out due to development constraints. So these games offer nothing more or different than WoW, but they offer less.
So OF COURSE people are going to complain that they don't have what WoW had. I would too!
If a game is going to try to copy WoW, then it needs to be BETTER than WoW in almost every regard.
This is kind of what WoW did with Everquest. It was clearly heavily influenced by EQ's design, but it made revolutionary steps in terms of making the whole leveling process quest driven, and giving classes lots of neat abilities.
If a game came out that improved on WoW like WoW improved on Everquest, then I think it would do very well.
All that said, if a game was released that is clearly highly distinct from WoW and good in its own way, then I don't think you would see as much "WoW" did it better complaints (still some of course, but not as much).
You say improve....I say make a direction worse...I am a little tired of the improvements that make games less 'mmo' by making more and more things instanced and quest railed...If things improve too much more, it just may get too good for me!
Look at my post and you will see that your missing part of your info. I'm in no way shape or form am I saying that WoW only has 500,000 subscribers in the US. I think that guys a little off. But what I am saying is that WoW does NOT have 12,000,000 in the US>
I never stated, nor believed, nor implied that 12 million are U.S. Nothing of the sort, dont believe it. They are worldwide.
My appologies then. I had thought you were implying those were all US subscriptions and that the Asian model of payment was covered under some other catagory or place.
Edit; Just saw your edit, not sure where I got the region thing from. But from my math they have no more than 8 million subscriptions right now. But I'm sure its less than that as the number includes things like box sales.
Your math seems correct, however the one factor that throws it off is the asian pricing and their definition of subscriber. Anyone that pays anything within the last 30 days is counted as a subscriber. I have no idea how much other countries pay per hour, however if they only played a few hours in the month they would be counted as a subscriber and pay less than the $15.
As far as U.S/Europe goes. The only thing I've ever heard to go on is several years out of date where Blizzard said there were something like 2-3 million in U.S and 2-3 million in Europte and 6 million or so in Asia and other countries. I'm sure that number is now less, so we can safely say they have less than 2 million in U.S.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Look at my post and you will see that your missing part of your info. I'm in no way shape or form am I saying that WoW only has 500,000 subscribers in the US. I think that guys a little off. But what I am saying is that WoW does NOT have 12,000,000 in the US>
I never stated, nor believed, nor implied that 12 million are U.S. Nothing of the sort, dont believe it. They are worldwide.
My appologies then. I had thought you were implying those were all US subscriptions and that the Asian model of payment was covered under some other catagory or place.
Edit; Just saw your edit, not sure where I got the region thing from. But from my math they have no more than 8 million subscriptions right now. But I'm sure its less than that as the number includes things like box sales.
Your math seems correct, however the one factor that throws it off is the asian pricing and their definition of subscriber. Anyone that pays anything within the last 30 days is counted as a subscriber. I have no idea how much other countries pay per hour, however if they only played a few hours in the month they would be counted as a subscriber and pay less than the $15.
As far as U.S/Europe goes. The only thing I've ever heard to go on is several years out of date where Blizzard said there were something like 2-3 million in U.S and 2-3 million in Europte and 6 million or so in Asia and other countries. I'm sure that number is now less, so we can safely say they have less than 2 million in U.S.
In my opinion, thats a good thing. I could care less if WoW dies or not. But if its US subs are declining then MMO developers whos target audiences are NA and EU might stop trying to copy them so much and break us out of this stagnation. Everyone knows a game thats big in Asia doesnt mean the west will like it. I mean look at Aion. Really big in the East, and almost no one playing in the West.
Even if we assume that the North American WoW subs are even as low as 1-2 million, we have to recognize that this is more subs than anyone MMO out there has achieved. And sadly bussiness practices are not innovative once a paradigm has been established. It really doesn't matter if that 1-2 million is the "WoW crowd" that get bandied about or not, what matters is that the people making the decisions for MMO development believe that they have certain desires and traits and thus try to emmulate them.
The real telling factor of it the market is saturated with a WoW mentality is if SWTOR is a huge success or not. While it brings "story" to the table, it derives its game mechanics and fundementals from WoW in so many ways that the comparison has to be made. Yes it has Star Wars attached to it, but WoW has Warcraft (not as big an IP, but still an established and popular IP), so the difference in success should not be attributed to IP's alone. They both take a similar approach on so many levels, that if SWTOR is a huge success, I'm afraid we all have to admit that if were not in the "WoW crowd" developers are always going to consider us a niche market.
Many of the posters on these forums are old school gamers when it comes to MMO's, having their start with either Ultima Online or Everquest of the 1998 year on up. Ultima Online, Everquest 1, Dark Age of Camelot, Asheron's Call, Anarchy Online, Star Wars Galaxies, Planetside, Final Fantasy XI, and a few others were all developed with hobby enthusiast gamers in mind. Pre 2000 and right at the turn of 2000, people were using dial up prominantly to access the internet, along with cable modems. The machines they used were personally owned and expensive. The crowd that played these games WERE different than the ones that play them now.
Enter in World of Warcraft. The game was very user friendly, very forgiving in terms of death penalties and learning curves, and the makers learned very quickly with what changes had to be made to appeal to a larger audience. Very affordable fast internet access through DSL was becoming far more available, and computer costs were going down in terms of performance offered. Add on top of that the fact that WoW required very little in terms of system requirements on its launch.
The WoW crowd is real. The very larger precentage of teen and pre teen players using a spare machine not owned by them or handed down to them accessing the game, using DSL afforded by their parents GROSSLY overshadows the percentage of younger players found in the MMO's that preceded World of Warcraft.
Maybe other people have different definitions of the WoW Crowd, but that's the one I always thought was implied. There's oldschool, there's the WoW crowd, and then there's the people that fall inbetween. Now, to answer your thoughts on if there is a WoW crowd that eats, sleeps, dreams, and will only play a WoW clone game... Sure there is.
But I will agree with you that this percent of players is NOT the vast majority of WoW players that would always embrace that kind of gaming over all overs. It would be a sharply smaller minority.
There is a common belief among many posters in this forum that the MMORPG market is dominated by this incomprehensible group called the "WoW Crowd." And by this, I don't just mean "those who play WoW." I mean a group consisting of players who disdain any kind of game that is not almost exactly like WoW. Anytime we discuss a game that deviates from the WoW, someone will inevitably say "well the WoW crowd won't get it."
I think that the "WoW crowd" is bunk. I don't believe that the vast majority of the MMORPG market is dominated by a group of players so close minded that they will only play games like WoW. Why do I hold this rebel belief do you ask? Well it's because I looked at a lot of the common reasoning that leads one to believe that the "WoW crowd" is real...and it's pretty sketcy. Here are some of the common arguments along with why they aren't so solid:
ARGUMENT: WoW has 12 million subscribers while hardly any other MMORPGs pass 1 million.
Misleading. The majority of WoW's "subscribers" are in China, and they don't pay the monthly fee like N. Americans do. WoW's total box sales in N. America is actually closer to 3-4 million than 12. It's a faulty comparison when you compare the N. America sales of another MMORPG to the total amount of people that have played WoW worldwide.
RESPONSE: Where are you getting your 3-4 million boxes sold for NA? I read an article in gamasutra dated in 2009 that stated that WOW sold a total of 8.9 million copies. Blizzard states on their website that they sold 4.7 million copies of Cataclysm in the first month of it being for sale.
And I've never seen anyone comparing box sales of Warhammer Online to WOW subscriber numbers. I've seen them compare the 300-80k subscriber base of Warhammer to WOW's 12 million.
What your missing about WOW's 12 million subscriber number (which constitues for about 60% of the MMORPG market share) is not how it compares to other similar WOW type MMORPGs, but how there were maybe 1-1.5 million gamers in MMORPGs before WOW entered the scene.
There weren't 10+ million players in the MMORPG market that all the sudden decided the "WOW Model" was Gold Standard......they came from other casual gaming generes. One of Blizzard's main objectives with creating WOW was to make a MMORPG that was accessable to EVERYONE. That meant limiting or removing many of the parts of traditional MMORPG gaming that turned off many casual gamers.
ARGUMENT: The vast majority of players don't want a challenge and want everything handed to them. If you make a challenging MMORPG, hardly anyone will buy it.
Probably not true. Dark Souls is a RIDICULOUSLY challenging game...probably more challenging than any MMORPG to ever be released, and yet it has already sold 620K units in North American despite being a relatively recent release. It will very likely breach 1 million N. American sales in the long run, and that's a very respectable 1/3rd - 1/4th of WoW's total sales. The fact that a game that is so ridiculously, brutally, challenging sold so well tells me that the "fact" that the vast majority of players don't want a challenge is bunk.
RESPONSE: 620k units doesn't compare to box sales of WOW....its not 1/3rd or 1/4th of WOW's box sales. I still don't know where you got your box sale numbers from.
Even still, why has every single patch or update to World of Warcraft trended to be less difficult (in the name of increasing accessability)? Game companies like Blizzard Activision usually try not to give things to their playerbase they don't want...and it certianly hasn't hurt their subs over the years.
ARGUMENT: Players want to be hand held. They won't play a game with non-linear "sandbox" gameplay that focuses on world interactivity.
Flat out WRONG. You want proof? Just look at single player games. Oblivion sold about 1.7 million units in 2006 with N America making up the majority of those sales. So it's probably safe to say it sold 2 million in N. America by now. That's 1/2 - 2/3rds of WoW's N. American sales. And yet Oblivion features highly non-linear gameplay, tons of world interactivity, and hardly any hand-holding at all. GTA is another big seller that has similar features (though it is less "sandboxy"). This to me, completely disproves the notion that the vast majority of players need to be "hand-held" to enjoy a game.
RESPONSE: Again, two different game genres. The sub argument doesn't hold because your numbers on WOW are way off. Again, I point to every "improvement" that WOW has made over the last 6 years. Everything they've done since WOW's inception was to make the game easier and more accessable to play by the most people possible.
Blizzard has gone after the mainstreamed "Casual" Gamer. These are the folks who only have 30-90 minutes to play a day. Since MMORPGs exist in a persistant world (unlike Oblivion or Dark Souls), the game has to be easy enough to "Keep up with the Jones'" and make you feel like you made a noticible amount of progress given the short play cycles most casual gamers play in. That's why hand holding has generally been appreciated by the majority of WOW players.
ARGUMENT: Every sandbox game to come out in recent time has failed horribly. Therefore most people prefer the WoW model.
Misleading. Every sandbox that has been released since SWG (which had its own issues) has been an indie mess, low quality, unpolished, and full of bugs. In addition, most of them just try to emulate the success of a game that game out in 1998 (and fail horribly at that) instead of trying to be original and evolve the genre. These "failures" are terrible examples. It would be like concluding that people hate movies because every movie released is the quality of "Gigli."
RESPONSE: I'll agree with you on the bit about sandbox games getting a bad wrap for the sloppy job indie developers (Advenurine, Star Vault) have done. To be fair, they didn't have the funds to compete, in terms of polish & completeness with the likes of EA, Blizzard, or NCSoft.
So what's my point in all this? I want to try to dispel the perception that we're stuck with WoW clones because they are the only games with a chance at success. I don't believe that this "WoW Crowd" dominates the market as so many others do.
So what are your thoughts? After reading my counters to common arguments, do you agree or disagree?
The reason we are stuck with WOW clones is because it's all the big AAA game publishers will invest in. WOW's 12 million subscriber base is about 60% of the MMO market. WOW's subscriber base are largely made up of casual gamers. (the largest gamer demographic)
Mean while, the most successful Sandbox MMO out right now is EVE and it's poking along at 300+ thousand subscribers.
Considering how risky of an investment MMORPGs are these days (with all the free to play competition), big investors like EA and NCSoft aren't going to invest the MILLIONS required to have a bug free, high quality, polished game when the upside of the subscriber base is less than 1 million subs. The highest financial opprotunity is within that 12 million subscriber base that WOW has, and as such, you get games with VERY similar characeristics.
As they say in business...just follow the money. Look at what kind of games the big companies (with money to pay people to research what people want) are investing in. SW:TOR's price tag is rummored to be north of 300 million dollars...jus sayin. Mean while ArcheAge (a AAA polished sandbox game currently in development and the 2nd most anticipated game according to MMORPG.com) can't find a publisher for the West.
Originally posted by farfanugon Its your virtual world you believe the hype the way wou want , I cant see and plus side to trying to get you to understand , so sure ill agree WOW has 9 billion subcribers and heads the has the ear of the pope .
There are very large network cables that run across the Atlantic Ocean. It's very possible that the Atlanteans have managed to tap into those cables and hook into our network backbone. Since they are far more advanced than us, but have much less to do, their population of roughly 8 Billion makes up the numbers that Blizzard lacks in the U.S., Europe and Asia.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
But ..He also before that played Diablo and Diablo2
He bought Starcraft2 when that came out..
and he will most likely play Diablo3
But this is also the the ONLY knowledge he has about games, only Blizzard games..
If I woudnt have been there and told him that there is ALOT of other games out there, he would NOT have played any other games then the ones Blizzard has created..
And...He's older friends before me contains of people much like himself..everytime they try to get him to play another game , it's a Blizzard title..
There Is a WoW crowd..Or maybe it's a Blizzard Crowd
Fuck me! World of Warcraft, Starcraft and Diablo. Not only Blizzard games but some of the best games ever made. He should be shot for playing some of the best PC games ever made. You so called "Hardcore" (Laugh) players are alot worse than the "WOW crowd"
I never said anything about being "hardcore"..:)
Hmm..and I think they are well made games, but they are far from "the best games ever made"..
Comments
I haven't played WoW beyond a 14 day trial
But more to answer the OP. The "WoW crowd" is a marketing demographic, and it's just how marketing works. Logically you do what works. You aim for a market share, especially in such a high stakes market as MMO-making. You see the reason why Blizzard was able to improve of EQ features while still mostly copying it is because they had the financial backing to be in development longer and to really have improved features ready at release. They also had a loyal customer base that ensured a good majority of the initial box-sales.
Imagine asking investors to believe in you when your plans are to do "something totally different" and your justification for the plan is "because WoW players would like to play something different." No matter how right you may be because the desires of the masses are rarely logical or consistant. It's hard to see the logic in that.
It's much easier to say to investors. Here's how we are going to attract a large customer base with these similarities to WoW, and then say these are the changes we'll make to this proven system that make our game unique and better. And see it's all on paper for that initial pitch so you can promise some pretty amazing, game changing things, but developers rarely realize the ammount of work it takes just to get a functioning WoW clone much less an improvment of it.
"I will not play it nor any other MMO until they make it possible to obtain the best gear without forcing people to group up to do so." SwampRob
500,000? Really?
Wasn't it 12m then dropped to 10m? If Wow was 500k subs it would be free to play. You are way WAY off the mark.
Well you havn't played World of Warcraf then?
I actually find this comment interesting.
There is an Anit-Blizzard crowd here on these forums. (Nothing unusual because there is and Anti-TOR crowd and and ant-Mortal Online crowd or pretty much any game. It just happends that WoW is the most successful P2P MMO on the market, so it has the biggest "ant-crowd" against it)
What I find interesting is, ever since I have come to this site, people have been talking about the "WoW Killer," you know, that MMO Boogie man that comes with every new MMO that looks promicing. AoC is the WoW Killer, TOR is the WoW Killer, Rift is the WoW killer... and so on.
Basically what they are saying is; when this new game comes out, people playing WoW are going to stop playing World of Warcraft and play the new game. They say this gleefully. Championing the Idea that WoW is going to die... Finally.
But then, when they play the new game, they point the finger at anything they don't like and blame it all on "The WoW crowd." (Although ususally not in those words)
If former WoW players coming to your game is "Ruining it" Why are you gleefully cheering on the idea that your game is going to be a WoW killer and take subs from WoW? I don't understand that rational.
Either you should want Wow players leave World of Warcraft to come to your game and be happy for their arrival -OR- you should want players who play WoW to continue to enjoy their game and your game pick up new MMO players that haven't played WoW before.
It should be one or the other, Not my game is going to kill WoW, but I don't want any former WoW players to play here. Doesn't make sense to me.
Last Sale:
Change Net/%:
Best Bid /Ask:
N/A / N/A
1 Year Target:
15
Today's High/Low:
/
Share Volume:
50 Day Avg. Daily Volume:
8,196,232
Previous Close:
$ 13.38
52 Week High /Low:
$ 13.65 / $ 10.40
Shares Outstanding:
1,142,815,000
Market Value:
$ 15,496,571,400
P/E Ratio:
24.65
Forward P/E(1y):
18.0810810810811
Earnings Per Share (EPS):
$ 0.55
Annualized dividend
N/A
Ex Dividend Date
N/A
Dividend Payment Date
N/A
Current Yield
0 %
Beta
0.57
NASDAQ Official Open Price:
$ 13.33
Date of Open Price:
Nov. 4, 2011
NASDAQ Official Close Price:
$ 13.56
Date of Close Price:
Nov. 4, 2011
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Company Description (as filed with the SEC)
Activision Blizzard is a worldwide online, personal computer ("PC"), console, handheld, and mobile game publisher of interactive entertainment. Through Activision Publishing, Inc. ("Activision"), we are a leading international publisher of interactive software products and content. Activision develops and publishes video games on various consoles, handheld platforms and the PC platform through internally developed franchises and license agreements. Activision currently offers games that operate on the Sony Computer Entertainment Inc. ("Sony") PlayStation 3 ("PS3"), Nintendo Co. Ltd. ("Nintendo") Wii ("Wii"), and Microsoft Corporation ("Microsoft") Xbox 360 ("Xbox 360") console systems; Nintendo Dual Screen ("NDS") and Nintendo DSi ("DSi") handheld devices; the PC; the Apple iPhone ("iPhone"), the Apple iPad ("iPad") and other mobile devices. Through Blizzard Entertainment, Inc. ... More ...
Read more: http://www.nasdaq.com/symbol/atvi#ixzz1csfNMxzJ
im not pulling the numbers out of my butt like the online site that are fluffing the hype the days of $52.27 a share are long long past
this is .. for a lack of a better word WOW... World of Warcraft came out what 2004? The year now is what? 2011 almost 2012.
People still posting HAHA anything about World of WarCraft..
Blizzard pulled a "RICK ROLL" on you. Ever hear of "any publicity is good publicity".
Guys get over it. There is nothing anyone can ever do. Like it, hate it World Of Warcraft was,is, always will be the best MMO there ever was. Others didnt even come close.
I love the "Sources" for the info ...does it even matter anymore? Are you NEW to World of WarCraft? its old..we all know it..sorry from this thread seems most still talk as if World Of Warcraft just came out last year.... its dying (slowly) but dying.
best saying "most accounts are china" haha rich..
I think the problem is Blizzard themselves believe in the WoW crowd and so do other developers . If you dumb it down they will come .
WoW was doing well before the dumbed down spoonfed agenda of recent years . It may have done even better if it had stuck to it guns and hadn't tried to target certain demographics .
Now this I agree with.
More to the point, there has been a bit of a back lash from the WoW community about how easy Wow had become, so Blizzard made the Heroics and Raids a bit more difficult in Cata. In fact I still wipe when I pug ZA or ZG just like I used to Wipe when I did Gnomer. I used to say, "It isn't Gnomer unless you wipe at least once.
I hope Blizzard continues this trend, back to making Heroics and Raids more difficult, the same way old Dungeons used to actually wipe groups. (Instead of how it is now for the old dungeons, the tank just goes forward through the dungeon as fast as he can and doesn't even bother to wait to see if anyone is following him like it is now)
You do realize that on their statements the area on the Statements Of Operations is "Subscription, licensing, and other revenues" not just Subscriptions. Also, the reports do not say where the subscriptions come from, but it does say that Asia numbers are included in that "Subscription, licensing, and other revenues" field. On top of that, money made in Asia, money made in NA, and money made in EU are all reported on the same statement. Its not seperate.
That brings me down to my question. How could you possibly think that all 12 million subs fall under the US customer base?
EDIT: Subscription Revenues
Subscription revenues are derived from World of Warcraft , a game that is playable through Blizzard’s servers on a subscription-only basis. After the first month of free usage that is included with the World of Warcraft boxed software, the World of Warcraft end user may enter into a subscription agreement for additional future access. Revenues associated with the sale of subscriptions via boxed software and prepaid subscription cards, as well as prepaid subscriptions sales, are deferred until the subscription service is activated by the consumer and recognized ratably over the subscription period. Revenue from internet gaming rooms in Asia is recognized upon usage of the time packages sold. Value-added service revenues associated with subscriptions are recognized ratably over the estimated service periods.
This is Actiblizz's definition of Subscription Revenues directly from their statements. Notice that bit about Asia at the end?
I would also like to point out that blizzard says for the three months ending in June of 2011 their total Online Subscription Revenue is $359 Million (page 19.) If you do the basic math, (359/15)/3 then you come out with about 8 million. Meaning WoW may only have 8 million subs (as this number is ALL subscriptions the company has). And even that includes more than just subcriptions: " including subscriptions, boxed products, expansion packs, licensing royalties, and value-added services"
Learn to read financial statements before you try to use them as proof of something.
It's actually very different. The persistent state world is the issue, as there is a massive leap from telling a tale from start to finish and creating a world of tales that have thousands of people beginning at thousands of differnt points throughout.
In a CRPG, single or multiplayer, the person or group is given a controlled environment, with all participants working toward the same goal and being managed within the same world and timeline. In an MMORPG, none of those constants are there. Not only do you have different and even conflicting goals, but you also have a scenario where your 1,000 players can all be at completely different timelines in the story. The most basic example of that is killing a boss. In the controlled environment of single/multiplayer CRPGs, you can kill the boss and leave his corpse to slowly rot as the game goes on - a scenario that would suck for Adventure Group Two in an MMO and the thousands of other groups to reach that monster's lair and find nothing but a dead dragon and empty chests.
An aside on Dark Souls specifically: the game autosaves after major encounters.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
You realize that nothing you posted seems to point to only 500,000 subscribers right?
I mean this section alone:
All amounts set forth in the following tables are in millions, except per share data.
For the Years Ended December 31,
2010
2009
2008
2007
2006
Statement of Operations Data:
Net Revenues
$
4,447
$
4,279
$
3,026
$
1,349
$
1,018
Net income (loss)
418
(1)
113
(2)
(107
)
227
139
Basic net income (loss) per share(3)
0.34
0.09
(0.11
)
0.38
0.24
Diluted net income (loss) per share(3)
0.33
0.09
(0.11
)
0.38
0.24
Cash dividends declared per share(4)
0.15
—
—
—
—
Balance Sheet Data:
Total assets
$
13,406
$
13,742
$
14,465
$
879
$
758
Points to 4 billions dollars in revenue - which is a heck of a lot moren 500,000 subscribers would bring in. Yes I know this is activiation/blizzard and not just activition - still 4 billion dollars is a lot more than 90 million which is what 500,000 would bring even if all of them paid $15/month.
Or here:
Business Results and Highlights
Notwithstanding the above-mentioned industry dynamics, Activision Blizzard's overall results were strong in 2010. Consolidated net revenues were $4.447 billion, and consolidated net income was $418 million, which included a $326 million non-cash pre-tax charge from the impairment of finite-lived intangible assets reflecting the impact of the weaker sales in the casual and music genres.
Or here, again from your date showing Blizards net revenues as 1.6 billions - again more than 500,000 subscribers per year would bring.
2010
2009
2008
Increase/
(decrease)
2010 v 2009
Increase/
(decrease)
2009 v 2008
Segment net revenues:
Activision
$
2,769
$
3,156
$
2,152
$
(387
)
$
1,004
Blizzard
1,656
1,196
1,343
460
(147
)
Distribution
378
423
227
(45
)
196
Operating segment net revenue total
4,803
4,775
3,722
28
1,053
Reconciliation to consolidated net revenues:
Net effect from deferral of net revenues
(356
)
(497
)
(713
)
141
216
Other*
—
1
17
(1
)
(16
)
Consolidated net revenues
$
4,447
$
4,279
$
3,026
$
168
$
1,253
Segment income from operations:
Activision
$
511
$
663
$
307
$
(152
)
$
356
Blizzard
850
555
704
295
(149
)
Distribution
10
16
22
(6
)
(6
)
Operating segment income from operations total
1,371
1,234
1,033
137
201
Reconciliation to consolidated operating (loss) income:
Net effect from deferral of net revenues and related cost of sales
(319
)
(383
)
(496
)
64
113
Stock-based compensation expense
(131
)
(154
)
(90
)
23
(64
)
Restructuring
(3
)
(23
)
(93
)
20
70
Amortization of intangible assets and purchase price accounting related adjustments
(123
)
(259
)
(292
)
136
33
Impairment of intangible assets
(326
)
(409
)
—
83
(409
)
Integration and transaction costs
—
(24
)
(29
)
24
5
Other*
—
(8
)
(266
)
8
258
Total consolidated operating income (loss)
$
469
$
(26
)
$
(233
)
$
495
$
207
or this, again from your data.
Blizzard
Blizzard's net revenues increased for 2010 as compared to 2009 primarily as a result of the release of World of Warcraft: Cataclysm in the fourth quarter of 2010 and StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty in the third quarter of 2010. The increase in net revenues also reflects growth in sales of value-added services related to World of Warcraft , which consist of transactions such as realm transfers, faction changes, and other character customizations within the World of Warcraft gameplay. The China region business was also back online for the full year of 2010 and Blizzard successfully launched World of Warcraft: Wrath of the Lich King in China in August 2010.
In other words maybe you should actually try reading the links your provide.
Venge
edit - @marin are you talking to me or him. I don't think that the 12 million (or 8 or 10 million now) are all U.S. They are worldwide. With ~60% being Asia.
Look at my post and you will see that your missing part of your info. I'm in no way shape or form am I saying that WoW only has 500,000 subscribers in the US. I think that guys a little off. But what I am saying is that WoW does NOT have 12,000,000 in the US>
I never stated, nor believed, nor implied that 12 million are U.S. Nothing of the sort, dont believe it. They are worldwide. I don't think I've ever seen anyone state that they have/had 12 million from the U.S. alone.
However he didn't state that. He stated they don't have 12 million, only 500,000 and again did not mention anything about regions.
My appologies then. I had thought you were implying those were all US subscriptions and that the Asian model of payment was covered under some other catagory or place.
Edit; Just saw your edit, not sure where I got the region thing from. But from my math they have no more than 8 million subscriptions right now. But I'm sure its less than that as the number includes things like box sales.
Its your virtual world you believe the hype the way wou want , I cant see and plus side to trying to get you to understand , so sure ill agree WOW has 9 billion subcribers and heads the has the ear of the pope .
You say improve....I say make a direction worse...I am a little tired of the improvements that make games less 'mmo' by making more and more things instanced and quest railed...If things improve too much more, it just may get too good for me!
Your math seems correct, however the one factor that throws it off is the asian pricing and their definition of subscriber. Anyone that pays anything within the last 30 days is counted as a subscriber. I have no idea how much other countries pay per hour, however if they only played a few hours in the month they would be counted as a subscriber and pay less than the $15.
As far as U.S/Europe goes. The only thing I've ever heard to go on is several years out of date where Blizzard said there were something like 2-3 million in U.S and 2-3 million in Europte and 6 million or so in Asia and other countries. I'm sure that number is now less, so we can safely say they have less than 2 million in U.S.
In my opinion, thats a good thing. I could care less if WoW dies or not. But if its US subs are declining then MMO developers whos target audiences are NA and EU might stop trying to copy them so much and break us out of this stagnation. Everyone knows a game thats big in Asia doesnt mean the west will like it. I mean look at Aion. Really big in the East, and almost no one playing in the West.
Even if we assume that the North American WoW subs are even as low as 1-2 million, we have to recognize that this is more subs than anyone MMO out there has achieved. And sadly bussiness practices are not innovative once a paradigm has been established. It really doesn't matter if that 1-2 million is the "WoW crowd" that get bandied about or not, what matters is that the people making the decisions for MMO development believe that they have certain desires and traits and thus try to emmulate them.
The real telling factor of it the market is saturated with a WoW mentality is if SWTOR is a huge success or not. While it brings "story" to the table, it derives its game mechanics and fundementals from WoW in so many ways that the comparison has to be made. Yes it has Star Wars attached to it, but WoW has Warcraft (not as big an IP, but still an established and popular IP), so the difference in success should not be attributed to IP's alone. They both take a similar approach on so many levels, that if SWTOR is a huge success, I'm afraid we all have to admit that if were not in the "WoW crowd" developers are always going to consider us a niche market.
To me, the WoW Crowd is NOT a Myth. I'll explain.
Many of the posters on these forums are old school gamers when it comes to MMO's, having their start with either Ultima Online or Everquest of the 1998 year on up. Ultima Online, Everquest 1, Dark Age of Camelot, Asheron's Call, Anarchy Online, Star Wars Galaxies, Planetside, Final Fantasy XI, and a few others were all developed with hobby enthusiast gamers in mind. Pre 2000 and right at the turn of 2000, people were using dial up prominantly to access the internet, along with cable modems. The machines they used were personally owned and expensive. The crowd that played these games WERE different than the ones that play them now.
Enter in World of Warcraft. The game was very user friendly, very forgiving in terms of death penalties and learning curves, and the makers learned very quickly with what changes had to be made to appeal to a larger audience. Very affordable fast internet access through DSL was becoming far more available, and computer costs were going down in terms of performance offered. Add on top of that the fact that WoW required very little in terms of system requirements on its launch.
The WoW crowd is real. The very larger precentage of teen and pre teen players using a spare machine not owned by them or handed down to them accessing the game, using DSL afforded by their parents GROSSLY overshadows the percentage of younger players found in the MMO's that preceded World of Warcraft.
Maybe other people have different definitions of the WoW Crowd, but that's the one I always thought was implied. There's oldschool, there's the WoW crowd, and then there's the people that fall inbetween. Now, to answer your thoughts on if there is a WoW crowd that eats, sleeps, dreams, and will only play a WoW clone game... Sure there is.
But I will agree with you that this percent of players is NOT the vast majority of WoW players that would always embrace that kind of gaming over all overs. It would be a sharply smaller minority.
There are very large network cables that run across the Atlantic Ocean. It's very possible that the Atlanteans have managed to tap into those cables and hook into our network backbone. Since they are far more advanced than us, but have much less to do, their population of roughly 8 Billion makes up the numbers that Blizzard lacks in the U.S., Europe and Asia.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
One would think that the success of RIFT, a themepark game by an independant dev is enough to prove that a well done 'WoW-clone' can be a success.
Is it a sure thing? No, but there are more examples of that type of gameplay being a success than not.
I am surprised that ArcheAge can't find a publisher though. It seems like a solid game.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
I never said anything about being "hardcore"..:)
Hmm..and I think they are well made games, but they are far from "the best games ever made"..
Sort of on-topic :
http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/11/05/teenage-killer-confesses-crime-in-world-of-warcraft-chat-senten/