All three games you mention are nothing but corporate graphical mmo games built to appeal to the mainstream market including lowering their game mechanics so that even the lowest common denominator can succeed blind folded.
I prefer a game that makes me think, makes me use skill over mashing hot bar buttons, and that rewards me for risk rather then just because I exist.
I know I'm considered a self righteous egotistical game player, but I like games where gold explanation points don't give me direction in the world, where mobs are NOT color coded on their difficulty to my avatar, and where quests are a little deeper and tied to more lore then "Go kill ten trolls" or "Go retrieve this necklace for Sally!"
None of the three games you mention offer any depth beyond their "purty grafix". Dr Seuss books, coloring books, and Choose-Your-Own-Adventure books are nice and all, but a few of us like a little more advanced book to read.
And I'm not sorry for who I am offending here. If you are offended by my post, then it's your own fault. People have different preferences, but don't start trying to tell me how "deep" of an mmo Aion or WoW is. You're beat before you even start. Ultima Online, Asheron's Call, and Everquest 1 are much deeper worlds with much more actual lore and content, regardless of the graphical glimmer missing. Sorry, but gold explanation and question marks over NPCs heads and color coded mobs to always keep you "safe" is not "content".
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
I would but i don't think i could deal with the Grind and then the ganking by the bored high levels (or on their geared out alts). I like the idea of the abyss and fighting over fortresses but Im not trying to look over my shoulder everytime a rift appears.
I would but i don't think i could deal with the Grind and then the ganking by the bored high levels (or on their geared out alts). I like the idea of the abyss and fighting over fortresses but Im not trying to look over my shoulder everytime a rift appears.
Don't let people lie to you. If your not in the Abyss your pretty much safe for the most part. From what I understand, they have some sort of nerf on people who come through rifts, and Rifts only allow a certain level range through them, so you generally will never get griefed by a high level in a PvE zone. And the game isnt too grindy anymore. I wont say its not grindy at all because it is, but you level much faster so you dont really notice as much.
Graphics? Overall the graphics are superior, though the style is lacking.
Combat? I honestly don't see much of a difference, though the combat is Aion and SWTOR does seem to be a little more exciting than WoW.
Housing? Wtf? Complete waste of developers resources.
How is housing a complete waste? NCsoft is a massive corporation, I'm sure they have done market research before investing resources into it. On top of that, it gives you more to do in the game. Many people actually like housing in games, so just because you dont doesnt mean its a complete waste.
I will say that I dont like how Aion is doing their housing. It seems so unrealistic to have a two story house on the outside and one massive room with a really high ceiling on the inside. I think the interiors that look more like the houses in EQ2, VG, or DFO are more natural and comfortable. Not a massive studio appartment like NCsoft has decided on.
Offended? no. /facepalm? yes... Why must people add posts like this to such a discussion? Elitism such as this adds nothing but drama to a thread. You like a different type of game, great, why not say as much and leave it at that?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Not to be a downer but this patch was brought up 2 yrs ago now, so this trailer is probably quite a few months off. As far as I know Aion already did the graphics update and when I went on to check it out, it wasn't much better at all. The gameplay is very bland - I really do not feel like I'm in control of my character much.
Besides at this point Aion is already written off in many people's minds, as it is typically known to many as a joke so it will never attract many people back. With that being said though, I will try this patch out when it is released as I have really been waiting for it . Best of luck to Aion but I just don't see it being a contendor yet.
I would say yeah, definately - but the problem is, I've already played Aion, and like with all games, eventually got bored of it. The one thing TOR has, for me, is that it'll be new for a while. I might even be bored of Skyrim by the time TOR is out.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
I truly dont believe that NCSoft will ever "TRULY" tweak any of their games to a western audience. I think its sheer arrogance.
Why is it sheer arrogance for them to not tweak their games specifically for a Western audience?
Do Western developers tweak their games specifically to suit the Eastern market, adding graphical and gameplay elements that are very Eastern-flavored, with huge glowing weapons, disgustingly cute creatures and the like? No, they don't.
Does that make Western developers arrogant? No, it means they're developing games for a specific market... just like the Korean and Japanese developers are with their games.
I really don't understand such a myopic point-of-view;, and I see it a lot; "The Eastern companies don't make their games to cater specifically to Western markets.. They must be arrogant". ... or "clueless".
Does it not occur to people that there are other gaming markets out there, and that the Western market is not the center of the gaming universe?
Didn't NCSoft specifically localize Aion for Western markets? Then why shouldn't it be expected that they actually do it the right way? No one is saying one style is better than the other style, but if you are going to adapt your game to a specific market, then do it right.
I truly dont believe that NCSoft will ever "TRULY" tweak any of their games to a western audience. I think its sheer arrogance.
Why is it sheer arrogance for them to not tweak their games specifically for a Western audience?
Do Western developers tweak their games specifically to suit the Eastern market, adding graphical and gameplay elements that are very Eastern-flavored, with huge glowing weapons, disgustingly cute creatures and the like? No, they don't.
Does that make Western developers arrogant? No, it means they're developing games for a specific market... just like the Korean and Japanese developers are with their games.
I really don't understand such a myopic point-of-view;, and I see it a lot; "The Eastern companies don't make their games to cater specifically to Western markets.. They must be arrogant". ... or "clueless".
Does it not occur to people that there are other gaming markets out there, and that the Western market is not the center of the gaming universe?
You have seen Tera right?
On another note, Archeage is supposedly being tweaked for western markets. What they mean by clueless is that they are ignoring this whole area of the world that has money in their pockets (and likely pay more per month than those in asia due to their different payment model).
Also, it doesnt matter if the western markets are not the "center of the gaming universe." If your going to sell a game here, or run an MMO for the west then you best make it so that the west will like it otherwise people just wont buy it.
Look at Aion, it has such a low remaining population in the West because its such an eastern game.
I truly dont believe that NCSoft will ever "TRULY" tweak any of their games to a western audience. I think its sheer arrogance.
Why is it sheer arrogance for them to not tweak their games specifically for a Western audience?
They already did. It's in English isn't it? Why not make some gameplay changes while they are at it and help it fit THIS MARKET THAT THEY RELEASED IT IN.
Do Western developers tweak their games specifically to suit the Eastern market, adding graphical and gameplay elements that are very Eastern-flavored, with huge glowing weapons, disgustingly cute creatures and the like? No, they don't.
Does that make Western developers arrogant? No, it means they're developing games for a specific market... just like the Korean and Japanese developers are with their games.
I really don't understand such a myopic point-of-view;, and I see it a lot; "The Eastern companies don't make their games to cater specifically to Western markets.. They must be arrogant". ... or "clueless".
Does it not occur to people that there are other gaming markets out there, and that the Western market is not the center of the gaming universe? Where did you get this from?
I am complaining about a Korean company with a division in America that claimed to fit this game to the Western audience. I am not talking about Art or style.
I really don't think the company gives two shits how well it does in the western market. They showed as much with Lineage 2.
Combat may be alright for ground PVE but flying PVP is terrible. Anything flying is terrible. Try being a melee fighter trying to kill a ranged class who is flying. Done, end of story, moving to next thread.
I truly dont believe that NCSoft will ever "TRULY" tweak any of their games to a western audience. I think its sheer arrogance.
I am complaining about a Korean company with a division in America that claimed to fit this game to the Western audience. I am not talking about Art or style.
I really don't think the company gives two shits how well it does in the western market. They showed as much with Lineage 2.
Well its your own fault you may not know it but there are lots of people prefering a challenging pretty looking asian game over a dumbed down cartoonish looking western game.
For me all I want for a westernized asia game is a translation nothing more. If people are lazy enough not looking at the game and think every game has to be a cartoonish walk in the park then its their own fault.
And yes I'm one of the many many people prefering asian games.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
I wish to any mythical god in heaven that they would please stop trying to port eastern game design into the western market. It's a complete waste of time and energy and it pollutes the western market as far as I'm concerned.
I wish to any mythical god in heaven that they would please stop trying to port eastern game design into the western market. It's a complete waste of time and energy and it pollutes the western market as far as I'm concerned.
I hope to god they will continue doing it so people that like challenge and great graphics are sitll having something to play. While all the "westernize (dumb down) everything" crowd still has their western games to play.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
I wish to any mythical god in heaven that they would please stop trying to port eastern game design into the western market. It's a complete waste of time and energy and it pollutes the western market as far as I'm concerned.
I hope to god they will continue doing it so people that like challenge and great graphics are sitll having something to play. While all the "westernize (dumb down) everything" crowd still has their western games to play.
Aion had pretty nice graphics, and I really did like this game until NC Soft started doing lame things like adding pets for real money, Banned my account for 3 days with no proof of any real money trade wiped all my gold which was only like 3 mil or sumthing and said I bought gold, and then on top of this they even made it worse by charing real money for editing, or changing an appearance of a character.
Aion was a great game, it could have been much more, sure they could increase the spell effects make it look better, they have an area above the herion gate looks like crap textures so it needs some rotates/repeats to make it loook better thats abotu all I saw.
The game map itself in the city needs to be better placed on NPC's telling people exactly where such NPCs are such as sellers of clothing of fashion, armor, and weapons not scattered all around like they did it.
Overall Aion Could have been a great game, but NC Soft got greedy and because of their greed, and stupid mistakes with that RMT thing I quit their game, I refuse to pay $16 a month for a game when they add pets to give people who pay more an unfair advantage over those who don't, and I refuse to pay when I can't have full control over my game when I can't customize my character any time I please for free.
The next best MMO will more than likely be Tera, or Rift, we will have to wait and see what decisions rift goes, but there have already been some debates about Trion getting a cash shop, over all I like what Sony has done on their new release of making DCUO a F2P game, they give you the option to use a cash shop, but they do not require you pay pay anything beyond a monthly fee which gets you 16 Character Slots, and you can customize your character as much as you like. I do not like greedy companies like NC Soft, nor will I be a part of such by paying the pig money.
SWTOR, I am not even going to buy the game myself, I will wait for a trial or a good deal before I even buy the game it just looks really boring to me like possibly SWTOR will be like City OF Heroes, and I really do not like that type of game play. I am looking for more action play like Tera, or DCUO, not a game where you just mash buttons, or a game without Nextgen graphics and fail looking armors like Age OF Conan, which AOC could have been a great game too but they ruined that for me, and I was really shocked after I bought that game and it was not even like I had seen in their movie trailers.
WOW, I really dont know about WOW, they ruined the game for me, if I wanted to play wow, I would go play Runes OF Magic, because it is free, I can twink my character and do as I please, and most of all they dont tell me how I can and can't use my talents like Blizzard did, and they do not constantly nerf things bad like blizzard at least from my experience. But I can say that Aion could have been better than wow.
The new Aion, will be called Tera Online, we will see how their game works out on release and if they ruin it like NC Soft with a cash shop too, and charge people real money to customize characters I wont play it.
The current best F2P games I can think of off the top of my head will be.
I wish to any mythical god in heaven that they would please stop trying to port eastern game design into the western market. It's a complete waste of time and energy and it pollutes the western market as far as I'm concerned.
I hope to god they will continue doing it so people that like challenge and great graphics are sitll having something to play. While all the "westernize (dumb down) everything" crowd still has their western games to play.
Grinding mobs isn't a challenge.
Visionary much? Reread my post and you'll see I've never mentioned that but its ok you can stick to the instant gratification games while others will prefer games like Aion pre 2.0
I don't even play it anymore because like someone mentioned NC got greedy and introduced an item shop in a game I'm already paying a sub fee for thats the biggest no go for me.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Aion had pretty nice graphics, and I really did like this game until NC Soft started doing lame things like adding pets for real money, Banned my account for 3 days with no proof of any real money trade wiped all my gold which was only like 3 mil or sumthing and said I bought gold, and then on top of this they even made it worse by charing real money for editing, or changing an appearance of a character.
Aion was a great game, it could have been much more, sure they could increase the spell effects make it look better, they have an area above the herion gate looks like crap textures so it needs some rotates/repeats to make it loook better thats abotu all I saw.
The game map itself in the city needs to be better placed on NPC's telling people exactly where such NPCs are such as sellers of clothing of fashion, armor, and weapons not scattered all around like they did it.
Overall Aion Could have been a great game, but NC Soft got greedy and because of their greed, and stupid mistakes with that RMT thing I quit their game, I refuse to pay $16 a month for a game when they add pets to give people who pay more an unfair advantage over those who don't, and I refuse to pay when I can't have full control over my game when I can't customize my character any time I please for free.
The next best MMO will more than likely be Tera, or Rift, we will have to wait and see what decisions rift goes, but there have already been some debates about Trion getting a cash shop, over all I like what Sony has done on their new release of making DCUO a F2P game, they give you the option to use a cash shop, but they do not require you pay pay anything beyond a monthly fee which gets you 16 Character Slots, and you can customize your character as much as you like. I do not like greedy companies like NC Soft, nor will I be a part of such by paying the pig money.
SWTOR, I am not even going to buy the game myself, I will wait for a trial or a good deal before I even buy the game it just looks really boring to me like possibly SWTOR will be like City OF Heroes, and I really do not like that type of game play. I am looking for more action play like Tera, or DCUO, not a game where you just mash buttons, or a game without Nextgen graphics and fail looking armors like Age OF Conan, which AOC could have been a great game too but they ruined that for me, and I was really shocked after I bought that game and it was not even like I had seen in their movie trailers.
WOW, I really dont know about WOW, they ruined the game for me, if I wanted to play wow, I would go play Runes OF Magic, because it is free, I can twink my character and do as I please, and most of all they dont tell me how I can and can't use my talents like Blizzard did, and they do not constantly nerf things bad like blizzard at least from my experience. But I can say that Aion could have been better than wow.
The new Aion, will be called Tera Online, we will see how their game works out on release and if they ruin it like NC Soft with a cash shop too, and charge people real money to customize characters I wont play it.
The current best F2P games I can think of off the top of my head will be.
1. Global Agenda
2. Tribes Ascend
3. Runes OF Magic
4. Fire Fall
5. DC Universe Online
6. Dust514 <-- mite not be F2P
I've played both. ToR >>>>>>>>>>>>>Rift. ToR will at least be the second most popular game in the Western market and it's revenue will at least rival that of all the non-WoW Western games combined.
Comments
Who cares?
All three games you mention are nothing but corporate graphical mmo games built to appeal to the mainstream market including lowering their game mechanics so that even the lowest common denominator can succeed blind folded.
I prefer a game that makes me think, makes me use skill over mashing hot bar buttons, and that rewards me for risk rather then just because I exist.
I know I'm considered a self righteous egotistical game player, but I like games where gold explanation points don't give me direction in the world, where mobs are NOT color coded on their difficulty to my avatar, and where quests are a little deeper and tied to more lore then "Go kill ten trolls" or "Go retrieve this necklace for Sally!"
None of the three games you mention offer any depth beyond their "purty grafix". Dr Seuss books, coloring books, and Choose-Your-Own-Adventure books are nice and all, but a few of us like a little more advanced book to read.
And I'm not sorry for who I am offending here. If you are offended by my post, then it's your own fault. People have different preferences, but don't start trying to tell me how "deep" of an mmo Aion or WoW is. You're beat before you even start. Ultima Online, Asheron's Call, and Everquest 1 are much deeper worlds with much more actual lore and content, regardless of the graphical glimmer missing. Sorry, but gold explanation and question marks over NPCs heads and color coded mobs to always keep you "safe" is not "content".
- Zaxx
Cool video. Graphics look intense.
I would but i don't think i could deal with the Grind and then the ganking by the bored high levels (or on their geared out alts). I like the idea of the abyss and fighting over fortresses but Im not trying to look over my shoulder everytime a rift appears.
In many ways, yes.
Graphics? Overall the graphics are superior, though the style is lacking.
Combat? I honestly don't see much of a difference, though the combat is Aion and SWTOR does seem to be a little more exciting than WoW.
Housing? Wtf? Complete waste of developers resources.
Don't let people lie to you. If your not in the Abyss your pretty much safe for the most part. From what I understand, they have some sort of nerf on people who come through rifts, and Rifts only allow a certain level range through them, so you generally will never get griefed by a high level in a PvE zone. And the game isnt too grindy anymore. I wont say its not grindy at all because it is, but you level much faster so you dont really notice as much.
How is housing a complete waste? NCsoft is a massive corporation, I'm sure they have done market research before investing resources into it. On top of that, it gives you more to do in the game. Many people actually like housing in games, so just because you dont doesnt mean its a complete waste.
I will say that I dont like how Aion is doing their housing. It seems so unrealistic to have a two story house on the outside and one massive room with a really high ceiling on the inside. I think the interiors that look more like the houses in EQ2, VG, or DFO are more natural and comfortable. Not a massive studio appartment like NCsoft has decided on.
Considering SWTOR hasn't even launched yet, yeah.. they "beat" them.
"TO MICHAEL!"
Offended? no. /facepalm? yes... Why must people add posts like this to such a discussion? Elitism such as this adds nothing but drama to a thread. You like a different type of game, great, why not say as much and leave it at that?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Not to be a downer but this patch was brought up 2 yrs ago now, so this trailer is probably quite a few months off. As far as I know Aion already did the graphics update and when I went on to check it out, it wasn't much better at all. The gameplay is very bland - I really do not feel like I'm in control of my character much.
Besides at this point Aion is already written off in many people's minds, as it is typically known to many as a joke so it will never attract many people back. With that being said though, I will try this patch out when it is released as I have really been waiting for it
. Best of luck to Aion but I just don't see it being a contendor yet.
I would say yeah, definately - but the problem is, I've already played Aion, and like with all games, eventually got bored of it. The one thing TOR has, for me, is that it'll be new for a while. I might even be bored of Skyrim by the time TOR is out.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Didn't NCSoft specifically localize Aion for Western markets? Then why shouldn't it be expected that they actually do it the right way? No one is saying one style is better than the other style, but if you are going to adapt your game to a specific market, then do it right.
You have seen Tera right?
On another note, Archeage is supposedly being tweaked for western markets. What they mean by clueless is that they are ignoring this whole area of the world that has money in their pockets (and likely pay more per month than those in asia due to their different payment model).
Also, it doesnt matter if the western markets are not the "center of the gaming universe." If your going to sell a game here, or run an MMO for the west then you best make it so that the west will like it otherwise people just wont buy it.
Look at Aion, it has such a low remaining population in the West because its such an eastern game.
it's funny to see that people say that Aion has failed:P
The game is doing quite well actually, much better then other MMO's that have been released the las couple of years.
there are enough players, so the game is far from dead, and NCSOFT seems to make enough money on it to keep it up and running...
And no I'm not playing, the game is quite bad IMO, but my gf play everyday, and she never has any problem what so ever to find people to play with.
However, WoW is still a more popular and successful game, and I doubt Aion will beat SWTOR when it gets released.
but Aion never failed. (IMO)
I am complaining about a Korean company with a division in America that claimed to fit this game to the Western audience. I am not talking about Art or style.
I really don't think the company gives two shits how well it does in the western market. They showed as much with Lineage 2.
For most boring after 20 levels of play - it wins.
This is funny, please continue.
Aion is a pretty game with no soul.
The environments look great, but the characters and cosmetics are horrible.
Combat may be alright for ground PVE but flying PVP is terrible. Anything flying is terrible. Try being a melee fighter trying to kill a ranged class who is flying. Done, end of story, moving to next thread.
Well its your own fault you may not know it but there are lots of people prefering a challenging pretty looking asian game over a dumbed down cartoonish looking western game.
For me all I want for a westernized asia game is a translation nothing more. If people are lazy enough not looking at the game and think every game has to be a cartoonish walk in the park then its their own fault.
And yes I'm one of the many many people prefering asian games.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
I wish to any mythical god in heaven that they would please stop trying to port eastern game design into the western market. It's a complete waste of time and energy and it pollutes the western market as far as I'm concerned.
I hope to god they will continue doing it so people that like challenge and great graphics are sitll having something to play. While all the "westernize (dumb down) everything" crowd still has their western games to play.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Grinding mobs isn't a challenge.
Aion had pretty nice graphics, and I really did like this game until NC Soft started doing lame things like adding pets for real money, Banned my account for 3 days with no proof of any real money trade wiped all my gold which was only like 3 mil or sumthing and said I bought gold, and then on top of this they even made it worse by charing real money for editing, or changing an appearance of a character.
Aion was a great game, it could have been much more, sure they could increase the spell effects make it look better, they have an area above the herion gate looks like crap textures so it needs some rotates/repeats to make it loook better thats abotu all I saw.
The game map itself in the city needs to be better placed on NPC's telling people exactly where such NPCs are such as sellers of clothing of fashion, armor, and weapons not scattered all around like they did it.
Overall Aion Could have been a great game, but NC Soft got greedy and because of their greed, and stupid mistakes with that RMT thing I quit their game, I refuse to pay $16 a month for a game when they add pets to give people who pay more an unfair advantage over those who don't, and I refuse to pay when I can't have full control over my game when I can't customize my character any time I please for free.
The next best MMO will more than likely be Tera, or Rift, we will have to wait and see what decisions rift goes, but there have already been some debates about Trion getting a cash shop, over all I like what Sony has done on their new release of making DCUO a F2P game, they give you the option to use a cash shop, but they do not require you pay pay anything beyond a monthly fee which gets you 16 Character Slots, and you can customize your character as much as you like. I do not like greedy companies like NC Soft, nor will I be a part of such by paying the pig money.
SWTOR, I am not even going to buy the game myself, I will wait for a trial or a good deal before I even buy the game it just looks really boring to me like possibly SWTOR will be like City OF Heroes, and I really do not like that type of game play. I am looking for more action play like Tera, or DCUO, not a game where you just mash buttons, or a game without Nextgen graphics and fail looking armors like Age OF Conan, which AOC could have been a great game too but they ruined that for me, and I was really shocked after I bought that game and it was not even like I had seen in their movie trailers.
WOW, I really dont know about WOW, they ruined the game for me, if I wanted to play wow, I would go play Runes OF Magic, because it is free, I can twink my character and do as I please, and most of all they dont tell me how I can and can't use my talents like Blizzard did, and they do not constantly nerf things bad like blizzard at least from my experience. But I can say that Aion could have been better than wow.
The new Aion, will be called Tera Online, we will see how their game works out on release and if they ruin it like NC Soft with a cash shop too, and charge people real money to customize characters I wont play it.
The current best F2P games I can think of off the top of my head will be.
1. Global Agenda
2. Tribes Ascend
3. Runes OF Magic
4. Fire Fall
5. DC Universe Online
6. Dust514 <-- mite not be F2P
Visionary much? Reread my post and you'll see I've never mentioned that but its ok you can stick to the instant gratification games while others will prefer games like Aion pre 2.0
I don't even play it anymore because like someone mentioned NC got greedy and introduced an item shop in a game I'm already paying a sub fee for thats the biggest no go for me.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
I've played both. ToR >>>>>>>>>>>>>Rift. ToR will at least be the second most popular game in the Western market and it's revenue will at least rival that of all the non-WoW Western games combined.