Where did the arguement that MMORPG are getting easier come from?
"In my day we had it hard, walked 77 miles to school, uphill both ways, through the blizzard and surrounded by rabid polar bears."
It's always existed in gaming, too. Regardless of New Game's qualities, there will always be someone waiting to demonstrate how much more hardc0re his last game was, and demonstrate his macho by describing how easy a life he has now.
All part of the standard message board Pose and Flex excercise.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Where did the arguement that MMORPG are getting easier come from?
"In my day we had it hard, walked 77 miles to school, uphill both ways, through the blizzard and surrounded by rabid polar bears."
It's always existed in gaming, too. Regardless of New Game's qualities, there will always be someone waiting to demonstrate how much more hardc0re his last game was, and demonstrate his macho by describing how easy a life he has now.
All part of the standard message board Pose and Flex excercise.
I think that the people who are pissed off because of todays MMO's bring up how good stuff used to be not because they are trying to be COOL. But rather because they dont have many choices when it comes to an entertainment/challenging game. The games that are challenging eventually get nerfed for the sake of new players being able to join the level capped community also. And not only that, but the numbers are on the side of those who like the new difficulty levels which means that we are doomed to this existance so dont go hating on the 'good old crowd'. Hug them... they need it.
Of course they are easier now, please let's not fool ourselves. If you have been playing MMO's for a long time, the change is obvious.
We moved away from group centric multiplayer to single player in a multiplayer enviroment.
Since most games made now allow you to solo to the max level, there is little need for getting to know the players around you. Heck most games don't even have any downtime anymore so there is hardly any friendly banter amoung the group. The social aspect of MMO's has really diminished. Your reputation doesn't mean that much anymore. What kind of community does this build?
Sure MMO's shouldn't punish solo play, there is a demand for that depending on your available gaming time. But, MMO's should reward MMO play and try to build an enviroment that fosters it.
I agree 100%
I think what frusterates me most about this toppic (not just this one but others like it) alot of people say that time doesn't equal skill. I say it does (to some extent)
Take guitar for instance, you want to learn guitar? just about anyone can learn, sure it takes LONGER for others then for some...but its all about the amount of time you put in,
When I say learning guitar is harder then learning guitar hero, its because one takes longer to learn. take the average guy off of the street, he plays guitar hero for 3 weeks, he'll be pretty good. put him infront of a guitar for three years, he'll be pretty good.
Time DOES = skill. End of story.
Then you add in that older MMO's where more groupe centered, which meant you had to get along with other people and stratigize. I would say WITHOUT A DOUBT older MMO's where deffinitly harder.
Time does not equal skill in MMORPG. You spend more time in the game, but have you improved your skills any? No. You've made your character more powerful. Whether it takes more time or less time, anyone with basic reading comprehension and basic social skills can excel in any mmorpg.
Time does often equal skill in real life. If you spend more time playing a guitar, you will generally get better at playing a guitar. You are improving your skills, not the guitar's skills.
I do think the older MMO's were harder and more difficult. Of course it's going to take more time to kill something solo that's designed to be killed by a group. It's the same thing as soloing dungeons in WoW. It takes more time to get your character powerful enough to do it. It is harder, but again, anyone with basic reading comprehension, basic social skills and enough patience can do it.
while I agree with some of your post. I could also say: Well witha basic reading comprehension, basic social skills and enough patience I can learn guitar.
But I know what you are saying, its not the same thing, and I would agree with that. In my opinion its a diffrent kind of skill.
Who knows maybe it takes skill to stick with a mmo for more then a month.
But my main point was, older MMO's were harder, whether you wanted to say they took more time, or they were more difficult...they were harder, and alot more fun.
I mean taking my expeince from FFXI, it did have a learning curve, it did take a looong time to learn the ins and outs, would I say someone who played it for 4 years have more "skill" then someone who has played it for 4 days...Yes deffinitly, is it the same type of skill required to play a guitar? no...but it is a skill of somesort.
Wow, as far as I know, was the first MMO out of many that didn't even have a death penalty (aside from the repair bill). Back in the day, if you died, you lost exp, or got exp debt, or even de-leveled if you were low enough in the level. Gear didn't come very often at all and when it did, it wasn't much of an upgrade.
Wow was fast, good rewards, with no consequences to death. Now you don't even have to do anything, click dungeon finder, do some half assed dps, repeat that till youre blue in the face, get your gear.
If you think Rift is for kids, then you also think wow is for kids, and really they both aren't that hard for kids. It's just learning how to play. Tell an 8 year old to go play Eve Online and see how well they manage. Sure there is probably some super human 8 year old that can do it out there but generally the younger gamers would play wow over something like eve.
To the point, wow did make things much easier, and was way better on the quality of life, but personally I am very bored of that kind of game that holds your hand through everything.
To put it mildly,FFXi was harder to get the game started than most of these games are to actually play.Now if you know what you are doing,you can level 90 cap in 3 days.I didn't even know where The sub job npc was or where Jueno was or know how to make a macro in my first two weeks.I died so many times as a noob in FFXi,yet in Wow i am dead serious,.i can play eating a meal ,watching tv and easily level up,becuase that NPCwith the marker over his head is waiting to hand me some easy xp.
In FFXI there was NO npc markers,NO map markers ,yep the game played like a real world,not like some kindergarten game that needs to hold your hand.Thgere was NO quests waiting to hand yo ua bunch of easy xp and telling you where to go next.
It took a couple years before most actually understood the game entirely.On the other hand you can walk into ANY new game and not have to think one bit,becuase there is a NPC with a flashy marker over his head telling you to "come here noob".
There is a HUGE difference in gaming now days,this is why so many gamers that came about the time of Wow really can't grasp the concept as to how easymode gaming has become.It is getting even worse,now they will auto group you,auto scale you,AND auto reward you ..lmao,can it get any worse?
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Originally posted by Dewm Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by Dewm
Originally posted by Brixon Of course they are easier now, please let's not fool ourselves. If you have been playing MMO's for a long time, the change is obvious. We moved away from group centric multiplayer to single player in a multiplayer enviroment. Since most games made now allow you to solo to the max level, there is little need for getting to know the players around you. Heck most games don't even have any downtime anymore so there is hardly any friendly banter amoung the group. The social aspect of MMO's has really diminished. Your reputation doesn't mean that much anymore. What kind of community does this build? Sure MMO's shouldn't punish solo play, there is a demand for that depending on your available gaming time. But, MMO's should reward MMO play and try to build an enviroment that fosters it.
I agree 100%
I think what frusterates me most about this toppic (not just this one but others like it) alot of people say that time doesn't equal skill. I say it does (to some extent) Take guitar for instance, you want to learn guitar? just about anyone can learn, sure it takes LONGER for others then for some...but its all about the amount of time you put in, When I say learning guitar is harder then learning guitar hero, its because one takes longer to learn. take the average guy off of the street, he plays guitar hero for 3 weeks, he'll be pretty good. put him infront of a guitar for three years, he'll be pretty good.
Time DOES = skill. End of story.
Then you add in that older MMO's where more groupe centered, which meant you had to get along with other people and stratigize. I would say WITHOUT A DOUBT older MMO's where deffinitly harder.
Time does not equal skill in MMORPG. You spend more time in the game, but have you improved your skills any? No. You've made your character more powerful. Whether it takes more time or less time, anyone with basic reading comprehension and basic social skills can excel in any mmorpg.
Time does often equal skill in real life. If you spend more time playing a guitar, you will generally get better at playing a guitar. You are improving your skills, not the guitar's skills.
I do think the older MMO's were harder and more difficult. Of course it's going to take more time to kill something solo that's designed to be killed by a group. It's the same thing as soloing dungeons in WoW. It takes more time to get your character powerful enough to do it. It is harder, but again, anyone with basic reading comprehension, basic social skills and enough patience can do it.
while I agree with some of your post. I could also say: Well witha basic reading comprehension, basic social skills and enough patience I can learn guitar.
But I know what you are saying, its not the same thing, and I would agree with that. In my opinion its a diffrent kind of skill. Who knows maybe it takes skill to stick with a mmo for more then a month. But my main point was, older MMO's were harder, whether you wanted to say they took more time, or they were more difficult...they were harder, and alot more fun.
I mean taking my expeince from FFXI, it did have a learning curve, it did take a looong time to learn the ins and outs, would I say someone who played it for 4 years have more "skill" then someone who has played it for 4 days...Yes deffinitly, is it the same type of skill required to play a guitar? no...but it is a skill of somesort.
at this point i'm just rambling..
Actually, a discussion on just what that skill is might be interesting. It's a lot more like being able to study on a subject that you aren't necessarily good at in school and still getting a passing grade. What is that skilled called? Patience and desire are factors. Perhaps just the ability to learn...you have the basics down with reading comprehension and social skills. Add patience, desire and the ability to learn and you've got an old school mmorpg player.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Of course they are easier now, please let's not fool ourselves. If you have been playing MMO's for a long time, the change is obvious.
We moved away from group centric multiplayer to single player in a multiplayer enviroment.
Since most games made now allow you to solo to the max level, there is little need for getting to know the players around you. Heck most games don't even have any downtime anymore so there is hardly any friendly banter amoung the group. The social aspect of MMO's has really diminished. Your reputation doesn't mean that much anymore. What kind of community does this build?
Sure MMO's shouldn't punish solo play, there is a demand for that depending on your available gaming time. But, MMO's should reward MMO play and try to build an enviroment that fosters it.
I agree 100%
I think what frusterates me most about this toppic (not just this one but others like it) alot of people say that time doesn't equal skill. I say it does (to some extent)
Take guitar for instance, you want to learn guitar? just about anyone can learn, sure it takes LONGER for others then for some...but its all about the amount of time you put in,
When I say learning guitar is harder then learning guitar hero, its because one takes longer to learn. take the average guy off of the street, he plays guitar hero for 3 weeks, he'll be pretty good. put him infront of a guitar for three years, he'll be pretty good.
Time DOES = skill. End of story.
Then you add in that older MMO's where more groupe centered, which meant you had to get along with other people and stratigize. I would say WITHOUT A DOUBT older MMO's where deffinitly harder.
Time does not equal skill in MMORPG. You spend more time in the game, but have you improved your skills any? No. You've made your character more powerful. Whether it takes more time or less time, anyone with basic reading comprehension and basic social skills can excel in any mmorpg.
Time does often equal skill in real life. If you spend more time playing a guitar, you will generally get better at playing a guitar. You are improving your skills, not the guitar's skills.
I do think the older MMO's were harder and more difficult. Of course it's going to take more time to kill something solo that's designed to be killed by a group. It's the same thing as soloing dungeons in WoW. It takes more time to get your character powerful enough to do it. It is harder, but again, anyone with basic reading comprehension, basic social skills and enough patience can do it.
while I agree with some of your post. I could also say: Well witha basic reading comprehension, basic social skills and enough patience I can learn guitar.
But I know what you are saying, its not the same thing, and I would agree with that. In my opinion its a diffrent kind of skill.
Who knows maybe it takes skill to stick with a mmo for more then a month.
But my main point was, older MMO's were harder, whether you wanted to say they took more time, or they were more difficult...they were harder, and alot more fun.
I mean taking my expeince from FFXI, it did have a learning curve, it did take a looong time to learn the ins and outs, would I say someone who played it for 4 years have more "skill" then someone who has played it for 4 days...Yes deffinitly, is it the same type of skill required to play a guitar? no...but it is a skill of somesort.
at this point i'm just rambling..
Actually, a discussion on just what that skill is might be interesting. It's a lot more like being able to study on a subject that you aren't necessarily good at in school and still getting a passing grade. What is that skilled called? Patience and desire are factors. Perhaps just the ability to learn...you have the basics down with reading comprehension and social skills. Add patience, desire and the ability to learn and you've got an old school mmorpg player.
It is an irtresting discussion, unfortunatly most of the time people try to discuss this it just ends with a couple of people saying "you hit one button, it takes no skill"
But I would agree with your statement above.
Now if we could just get it through some of the devs thick skulls.
what level do YOU require i get to in WoW for me to have an opinion on it? because I have an 80 hunter (god i hope that is high enough for me to form an opinion on the game *rolleyes*)
sorry but when i get a quest to kill 12 of X mobs and i can do that in one pull and not worry about dying the game is easy. same thing in Rift, take my cleric "oh you need 10 centaurs" ... pull 10 centaurs kill them without going below 50% health and return for next quest, and mind you that was in "green" armor and the centaurs being above my level.
try doing that in EQ. hell at high levels (when i played eq) if i pull ONE mob my level i had to run for the zone.
so yeah games are getting easier, can't see that then you don't want to see it or WoW was your first MMO. because its pretty obvious.
Where did the arguement that MMORPG are getting easier come from?
Here is a test you can do in the comfort of your own home:
Download a free trial of Everquest 1 or Anarchy Online or Dark Age of Camelot. (Older games)
Download a free trial of World of Warcraft or Rift. (Newer Games)
Get a friend / relative / girlfriend who does not play MMOs to sit down and play each of the for 1 hour or 2 hours or 3 hours each (whatever you can get them to agree on for sake of experiment). Give them full access to internet in case they want to do research.
Once they do both, assess their proficiency at the game and general level of knowledge about it.
Ask them which one is "easier". They're not bogged down with any kind of baggage in terms of "what does easy mean". They don't have years of experience. Report back your findings.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
Of course they are easier now, please let's not fool ourselves. If you have been playing MMO's for a long time, the change is obvious.
We moved away from group centric multiplayer to single player in a multiplayer enviroment.
Since most games made now allow you to solo to the max level, there is little need for getting to know the players around you. Heck most games don't even have any downtime anymore so there is hardly any friendly banter amoung the group. The social aspect of MMO's has really diminished. Your reputation doesn't mean that much anymore. What kind of community does this build?
Sure MMO's shouldn't punish solo play, there is a demand for that depending on your available gaming time. But, MMO's should reward MMO play and try to build an enviroment that fosters it.
I agree 100%
I think what frusterates me most about this toppic (not just this one but others like it) alot of people say that time doesn't equal skill. I say it does (to some extent)
Take guitar for instance, you want to learn guitar? just about anyone can learn, sure it takes LONGER for others then for some...but its all about the amount of time you put in,
When I say learning guitar is harder then learning guitar hero, its because one takes longer to learn. take the average guy off of the street, he plays guitar hero for 3 weeks, he'll be pretty good. put him infront of a guitar for three years, he'll be pretty good.
Time DOES = skill. End of story.
Then you add in that older MMO's where more groupe centered, which meant you had to get along with other people and stratigize. I would say WITHOUT A DOUBT older MMO's where deffinitly harder.
Time does not equal skill in MMORPG. You spend more time in the game, but have you improved your skills any? No. You've made your character more powerful. Whether it takes more time or less time, anyone with basic reading comprehension and basic social skills can excel in any mmorpg.
Time does often equal skill in real life. If you spend more time playing a guitar, you will generally get better at playing a guitar. You are improving your skills, not the guitar's skills.
I do think the older MMO's were harder and more difficult. Of course it's going to take more time to kill something solo that's designed to be killed by a group. It's the same thing as soloing dungeons in WoW. It takes more time to get your character powerful enough to do it. It is harder, but again, anyone with basic reading comprehension, basic social skills and enough patience can do it.
while I agree with some of your post. I could also say: Well witha basic reading comprehension, basic social skills and enough patience I can learn guitar.
But I know what you are saying, its not the same thing, and I would agree with that. In my opinion its a diffrent kind of skill.
Who knows maybe it takes skill to stick with a mmo for more then a month.
But my main point was, older MMO's were harder, whether you wanted to say they took more time, or they were more difficult...they were harder, and alot more fun.
I mean taking my expeince from FFXI, it did have a learning curve, it did take a looong time to learn the ins and outs, would I say someone who played it for 4 years have more "skill" then someone who has played it for 4 days...Yes deffinitly, is it the same type of skill required to play a guitar? no...but it is a skill of somesort.
at this point i'm just rambling..
Actually, a discussion on just what that skill is might be interesting. It's a lot more like being able to study on a subject that you aren't necessarily good at in school and still getting a passing grade. What is that skilled called? Patience and desire are factors. Perhaps just the ability to learn...you have the basics down with reading comprehension and social skills. Add patience, desire and the ability to learn and you've got an old school mmorpg player.
It is an irtresting discussion, unfortunatly most of the time people try to discuss this it just ends with a couple of people saying "you hit one button, it takes no skill"
But I would agree with your statement above.
Now if we could just get it through some of the devs thick skulls.
its more likely to be the non tech managers that the devs.
Someone mentioned that experience does not = skill. This is correct, but it does however contribute to skill level. There are a number of cross-transferrable game skills that are learned and carried over between games, so experience does = a % of skill level.
Examples:
Keyboard and mouse skills. Over time you learn from experience and rote memorisation how to optimise your clicks and keystrokes. Example, 20 years ago i used the mouse and clicked. Now i use gamer mouses, key strokes and touch typing.
Learning common gaming patterns and behaviour. Example, you learn over time to look and listen for events and triggers in boss fights. This becomes instinctive ovber time - your brain learns to subconsciously look for these things, resulting in faster reactions.
Learning how to judge when your character is in danger. Again this becomes instinctive for types of games.
Experience is a major enabler for skill, but not the only one.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Where did the arguement that MMORPG are getting easier come from?
"In my day we had it hard, walked 77 miles to school, uphill both ways, through the blizzard and surrounded by rabid polar bears."
It's always existed in gaming, too. Regardless of New Game's qualities, there will always be someone waiting to demonstrate how much more hardc0re his last game was, and demonstrate his macho by describing how easy a life he has now.
All part of the standard message board Pose and Flex excercise.
I'm not sure how somebody can state this, when as has been pointed out - you can look at the patch notes for most games and see where the games have been made easier. It is not simply a case of old farts being subjective in their memories... or the leetzor folks talking down to the n00bs.
It's right there. Concrete.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Where did the arguement that MMORPG are getting easier come from?
"In my day we had it hard, walked 77 miles to school, uphill both ways, through the blizzard and surrounded by rabid polar bears."
It's always existed in gaming, too. Regardless of New Game's qualities, there will always be someone waiting to demonstrate how much more hardc0re his last game was, and demonstrate his macho by describing how easy a life he has now.
All part of the standard message board Pose and Flex excercise.
I'm not sure how somebody can state this, when as has been pointed out - you can look at the patch notes for most games and see where the games have been made easier. It is not simply a case of old farts being subjective in their memories... or the leetzor folks talking down to the n00bs.
It's right there. Concrete.
good point.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
fools wow did make its game easier and they admitted to it i remember somewhere....sumthin about blancing the game out for the people new to rpg's and such....seriously if you play wow you know theyre a bunch of idiots....they wouldnt last if they had to play hard mode and WoW would lose even more subscriptions, they made it easier to save their own hides from losing money, wheres a noble gaming company that cares about their players more than money when you need one
Maybe WoW got easier over time...but I don't think it's all THAT much easier. A much more stark contrast can be seen if you compare "old school" MMORPGs with modern ones.
Specifically, let's compare WoW with Everquest.
EQ...was a hard game. Soloing was very difficult, you could generally only defeat MOBs lower level than you (certain classes/tactics excepted), and even then it was a risky proposition. MOBs hit HARD, they would frequently daze you and make you spin. If you try to run, they will hit you and slow you down.
In addition, almost all MOBs move faster than you and will never stop chasing you unless you zone. So unless you have a speed buff that only 3 classes can give...they will run you down if you try to escape. In EQ it was extremely common for people to fight on zone borders because they were scared of getting overwhelmed and having to run.
And to make matters worse? There were random high level monsters that would wander around lower level zones just waiting to kill whoever they stumble upon. So you had to be constantly aware of your surroundings...not just looking out for adds, but also looking out for these "grief" NPCs.
Oh, and it doesn't get much easier if you group. Many groups in EQ rely on a crowd control mechanism called "mesmerize." When a MOB is "mezzed" it won't do anything until it is attacked or a long period of time passes. It is really the only way to deal with adds or large spawns in much of EQ. This meant that groups had to be HIGHLY organized. If one stray spell or AoE hit a mezzed MOB, then he would B-line straight for the squishy enchanter and there is no way the tank is getting aggro. This often spelled a wipe.
Now look at WoW....
You can solo a MOB one or two levels above you usually, most classes can deal with a few adds, and even if they die, the penalty is just a short walk. MOBs will also stop chasing after a bit of running so getting away usually isn't a big deal.
First and foremost though, much of WoW's combat can be done in almost auto-pilot mode. Tab-target...ability rotation, ability rotation...loot, repeat. This would never fly in EQ. There was too much variance in what would happen. Critical abilities (root!) would be resisted...the MOB would get a critical hit...you would get dazed a lot...all this variance required you to constantly be on your toes and ready to react.
Oh and grouping in WoW? Much of it can be done without even communicating! Just run through dungeon...tank and spank, repeat.
I am not very vocal and prefer to play solo for this reason, games seem to get too tedious to level solo and dungeons are usually too difficult to solo, but most games require a player to party after you get beyond level 20, I would prefer games to makes mobs strengths adjust in relation to the individuals or groups strength, this way I might play longer.
Removed +heal gear and +spell damage gear, repacing it with +spell power gear. Easier because a healing caster no longer needs 2 sets of gear.
Doubled quest XP in the middle Burning Crusade. Easier because leveling got faster.
Added a dual spec system so changing specs back and forth is no longer needed.
Removed pet loyalty system making it easier for hunters to train pets.
Removed pets being tamed at their initial level replacing it with pet jumping level, making it easier to train pets.
Removed ammunition and ammunition bags, making it easier for classes who use ranged weapons to keep space open in inventory.
Removed questing for epic mounts for Warlocks and Paladins, making it easier to get the mounts.
Changed normal mounts from 40 to 20, making traveling easier.
Changed epic mounts from 60 to 40, making traveling easier.
Changed flying mounts from 70 to 60, making traveling easier.
Adding flying in Azeroth, making traveling easier.
Changed channeled heal for hunters to instant cast making it easier for hunters to keep pets healed.
Converted some of the Vanilla dungeons to shorter runs making it easier and faster to do a full run.
Added crafted BOE epics so non-raiders could have easier access to high quality gear sold on AH.
Added a cross-server dungeon finder system making it easier to find groups for dungeon runs.
Added dungeon rewards for running randoms.
Removed elite mobs from dungeon entrances.
Reworked the quest system providing easy access to location information needed to complete quests.
Reworked leveling in Cata so level cap can be achieved in significantly less time than the 240 hours which was common during BC.
Added Death Knight as hero class allowing players with high level characters to completely skip the first 58 levels.
This is just from memory. There are probably some I missed.
With few exceptions, these are ways the game has become faster -- but not necessarily easier.
DIFFICULTY REDUCTION: Hunters not needing to channel to heal pets directly increases the damage of hunters (they can DPS instead of channel), which makes things easier.
NOT DIFFICULTY REDUCTION: Dungeon finder doesn't make dungeons any easier, it just makes getting into dungeons faster/more convient. (Although the rewards for dungeon finder increase character power, which makes things easier.)
So the answer to the OP's question is that players often mistake time or convenience for difficulty.
Doubling level XP doesn't make a game harder, it only makes it more grindy.
Removing mounts doesn't make a game harder, it only makes it less convenient.
But things like improving monster HP or cast time do make a game harder, because the skill required to successfully beat monsters increases.
And of course there's a sub-discussion of fun challenge vs. un-fun challenge. If walking forward is no longer "hold W" but "press a complex series of buttons to keep walking", that's not a particularly interesting complexity -- so it's less fun, even though it's more challenging.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Originally posted by MMOExposed Where did the arguement that MMORPG are getting easier come from?
I know it cant be from World of Warcraft.
something happen today, while I was playing rift. the group tank decided to start WoW bashing, because I guess thats cool. He said something about WoW being easier. Yet he say the highest level character he has is a level 59 hunter. LOL.
I been seeing this argument thrown around about MMORPG being too easy. But I really curious, if the people making these claims are like the Tank I had in my group, who doesnt even play. I guess a game would be easy, if you dont play it. right?
lol level 59, yet the game is easycake... lol smh
I've played both Rift and WoW and I'd give Rift a slight advantage over WoW in terms of hardness because of the invasion spawns and world bosses. However, Rift's quest system is setup better and is much smoother, so I'd give WoW a slight advantage over Rift in terms of difficulty in questing. But again, it's all relative. Neither game is particularly hard.
If you go back to a game like EQ1 or Ultima Online, things are definitely harder. In Ultima Online, players had to create and run their own auction houses from scratch, with no built in system help from the devs. You can't tell me that's easy.
Most of the time though, people aren't really saying game X is easier, they're saying game X is worse than the game they are comparing it to. If the game is boring (harder) it's worse. If the game is easier (boring) it's worse. If the game doesn't do enough automatically, it's worse. If the game does too much for you, it's worse. That's what they are saying.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I am sure the op must be jokeing, games like wow, eq2, lotro, most free 2 play games, have become absurdly easy and because of that quite boring. If you want games with a challenge you have to go to Vanguard or Ryzom or Eve or AOC
With few exceptions, these are ways the game has become faster -- but not necessarily easier.
DIFFICULTY REDUCTION: Hunters not needing to channel to heal pets directly increases the damage of hunters (they can DPS instead of channel), which makes things easier.
NOT DIFFICULTY REDUCTION: Dungeon finder doesn't make dungeons any easier, it just makes getting into dungeons faster/more convient. (Although the rewards for dungeon finder increase character power, which makes things easier.)
So the answer to the OP's question is that players often mistake time or convenience for difficulty.
Doubling level XP doesn't make a game harder, it only makes it more grindy.
Removing mounts doesn't make a game harder, it only makes it less convenient.
But things like improving monster HP or cast time do make a game harder, because the skill required to successfully beat monsters increases.
And of course there's a sub-discussion of fun challenge vs. un-fun challenge. If walking forward is no longer "hold W" but "press a complex series of buttons to keep walking", that's not a particularly interesting complexity -- so it's less fun, even though it's more challenging.
It's amazing how many things people claim were "harder" are actually inconsequential to actual game play.
Every time a company adds a mount, or changes mount speed, you see fifty people create "omgezmode" threads inside the hour. You ask them what in tarnation out of combat transit speed has to do with "difficulty" and ... silence.
Most of the changes I've seen in the MMO genre since EQ and UO have been positive, from the "MMO players have become a lot less masochistic" standpoint.
Yet--
You wonder where the Elite mobs went, when it happened that asspulls became very rare (creatures more spread out) and far less dangerous (one add, not a chain of six or ten). You wonder what happened to the art of corner pulls, using CC to keep a large spawn under control to make it manageable, when AOE spam replaced brains.
There are some things about MMO combat that are much easier than they used to be--truth.
Not all quality of life changes affect "challenge" in any measurable way--also truth.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
As Creslin points out a few posts back, I don't think there's any question that the average leveling experience is easier these days in order to attract and maintain a kind of casual player who never played the first generation MMOs.
However, I would say that raiding is just as hard now, only it's a different kind of hard. It's almost an apples to oranges comparison. These days raiders have access to all sorts of addons that give them tons of information and warnings but the game is tuned so that those warnings are absolutely necessary. If you don't immediately get out of the fire or get out of that circle on the ground in time before it detonates, you're dead.
I also think there's just so much more of an emphasis on performance these days, since all your results are tracked with damage meters. When you're measuring damage per second even the slightest deviation from perfect play can result in big losses.
I think the hardest of the hardcore raiders from back in the day are probably the same people that are doing it in WoW. Take a boss like M'uru in WoW. This mob was so overtuned originally that guilds literally wiped on him 500 times without success. In WoW you have (had?) a hard coded 1% chance for your spells to be resisted, and if RNG screwed your paladin tank, it was a wipe. When they finally did nerf his and his adds' HPs to make the 6 minute enrage timer slightly more forgiving, some of these guilds were disappointed.
TLDR For the most part games are easier, but the hardness can still be there.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it."-Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
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It came from the truth, deny, old man argument laugh if you want....But for the most part, they have...Some games are not that way, but the overall themepark design is. Do like one post said, go play an older game, then play newer games, it's fairly obvious, unless you cant admit the truth to yourself.
Removed +heal gear and +spell damage gear, repacing it with +spell power gear. Easier because a healing caster no longer needs 2 sets of gear.
Doubled quest XP in the middle Burning Crusade. Easier because leveling got faster.
Added a dual spec system so changing specs back and forth is no longer needed.
Removed pet loyalty system making it easier for hunters to train pets.
Removed pets being tamed at their initial level replacing it with pet jumping level, making it easier to train pets.
Removed ammunition and ammunition bags, making it easier for classes who use ranged weapons to keep space open in inventory.
Removed questing for epic mounts for Warlocks and Paladins, making it easier to get the mounts.
Changed normal mounts from 40 to 20, making traveling easier.
Changed epic mounts from 60 to 40, making traveling easier.
Changed flying mounts from 70 to 60, making traveling easier.
Adding flying in Azeroth, making traveling easier.
Changed channeled heal for hunters to instant cast making it easier for hunters to keep pets healed.
Converted some of the Vanilla dungeons to shorter runs making it easier and faster to do a full run.
Added crafted BOE epics so non-raiders could have easier access to high quality gear sold on AH.
Added a cross-server dungeon finder system making it easier to find groups for dungeon runs.
Added dungeon rewards for running randoms.
Removed elite mobs from dungeon entrances.
Reworked the quest system providing easy access to location information needed to complete quests.
Reworked leveling in Cata so level cap can be achieved in significantly less time than the 240 hours which was common during BC.
Added Death Knight as hero class allowing players with high level characters to completely skip the first 58 levels.
This is just from memory. There are probably some I missed.
With few exceptions, these are ways the game has become faster -- but not necessarily easier.
DIFFICULTY REDUCTION: Hunters not needing to channel to heal pets directly increases the damage of hunters (they can DPS instead of channel), which makes things easier.
NOT DIFFICULTY REDUCTION: Dungeon finder doesn't make dungeons any easier, it just makes getting into dungeons faster/more convient. (Although the rewards for dungeon finder increase character power, which makes things easier.)
So the answer to the OP's question is that players often mistake time or convenience for difficulty.
Doubling level XP doesn't make a game harder, it only makes it more grindy.
Removing mounts doesn't make a game harder, it only makes it less convenient.
But things like improving monster HP or cast time do make a game harder, because the skill required to successfully beat monsters increases.
And of course there's a sub-discussion of fun challenge vs. un-fun challenge. If walking forward is no longer "hold W" but "press a complex series of buttons to keep walking", that's not a particularly interesting complexity -- so it's less fun, even though it's more challenging.
The problem with this thread is the use of the word EASIER. Making a game faster is making it easier from one aspect. Come up with a better concept of what is really being sought in the discussion.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Comments
"In my day we had it hard, walked 77 miles to school, uphill both ways, through the blizzard and surrounded by rabid polar bears."
It's always existed in gaming, too. Regardless of New Game's qualities, there will always be someone waiting to demonstrate how much more hardc0re his last game was, and demonstrate his macho by describing how easy a life he has now.
All part of the standard message board Pose and Flex excercise.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I think that the people who are pissed off because of todays MMO's bring up how good stuff used to be not because they are trying to be COOL. But rather because they dont have many choices when it comes to an entertainment/challenging game. The games that are challenging eventually get nerfed for the sake of new players being able to join the level capped community also. And not only that, but the numbers are on the side of those who like the new difficulty levels which means that we are doomed to this existance so dont go hating on the 'good old crowd'. Hug them... they need it.
while I agree with some of your post. I could also say: Well witha basic reading comprehension, basic social skills and enough patience I can learn guitar.
But I know what you are saying, its not the same thing, and I would agree with that. In my opinion its a diffrent kind of skill.
Who knows maybe it takes skill to stick with a mmo for more then a month.
But my main point was, older MMO's were harder, whether you wanted to say they took more time, or they were more difficult...they were harder, and alot more fun.
I mean taking my expeince from FFXI, it did have a learning curve, it did take a looong time to learn the ins and outs, would I say someone who played it for 4 years have more "skill" then someone who has played it for 4 days...Yes deffinitly, is it the same type of skill required to play a guitar? no...but it is a skill of somesort.
at this point i'm just rambling..
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Obvious bait. To answer shortly: The claim comes from those who have played mmorpgs for many years and therefore are qualified to make a comparison.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
Wow, as far as I know, was the first MMO out of many that didn't even have a death penalty (aside from the repair bill). Back in the day, if you died, you lost exp, or got exp debt, or even de-leveled if you were low enough in the level. Gear didn't come very often at all and when it did, it wasn't much of an upgrade.
Wow was fast, good rewards, with no consequences to death. Now you don't even have to do anything, click dungeon finder, do some half assed dps, repeat that till youre blue in the face, get your gear.
If you think Rift is for kids, then you also think wow is for kids, and really they both aren't that hard for kids. It's just learning how to play. Tell an 8 year old to go play Eve Online and see how well they manage. Sure there is probably some super human 8 year old that can do it out there but generally the younger gamers would play wow over something like eve.
To the point, wow did make things much easier, and was way better on the quality of life, but personally I am very bored of that kind of game that holds your hand through everything.
To put it mildly,FFXi was harder to get the game started than most of these games are to actually play.Now if you know what you are doing,you can level 90 cap in 3 days.I didn't even know where The sub job npc was or where Jueno was or know how to make a macro in my first two weeks.I died so many times as a noob in FFXi,yet in Wow i am dead serious,.i can play eating a meal ,watching tv and easily level up,becuase that NPCwith the marker over his head is waiting to hand me some easy xp.
In FFXI there was NO npc markers,NO map markers ,yep the game played like a real world,not like some kindergarten game that needs to hold your hand.Thgere was NO quests waiting to hand yo ua bunch of easy xp and telling you where to go next.
It took a couple years before most actually understood the game entirely.On the other hand you can walk into ANY new game and not have to think one bit,becuase there is a NPC with a flashy marker over his head telling you to "come here noob".
There is a HUGE difference in gaming now days,this is why so many gamers that came about the time of Wow really can't grasp the concept as to how easymode gaming has become.It is getting even worse,now they will auto group you,auto scale you,AND auto reward you ..lmao,can it get any worse?
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I agree 100%
I think what frusterates me most about this toppic (not just this one but others like it) alot of people say that time doesn't equal skill. I say it does (to some extent)
Take guitar for instance, you want to learn guitar? just about anyone can learn, sure it takes LONGER for others then for some...but its all about the amount of time you put in,
When I say learning guitar is harder then learning guitar hero, its because one takes longer to learn. take the average guy off of the street, he plays guitar hero for 3 weeks, he'll be pretty good. put him infront of a guitar for three years, he'll be pretty good.
Time DOES = skill. End of story.
Then you add in that older MMO's where more groupe centered, which meant you had to get along with other people and stratigize. I would say WITHOUT A DOUBT older MMO's where deffinitly harder.
Time does not equal skill in MMORPG. You spend more time in the game, but have you improved your skills any? No. You've made your character more powerful. Whether it takes more time or less time, anyone with basic reading comprehension and basic social skills can excel in any mmorpg.
Time does often equal skill in real life. If you spend more time playing a guitar, you will generally get better at playing a guitar. You are improving your skills, not the guitar's skills.
I do think the older MMO's were harder and more difficult. Of course it's going to take more time to kill something solo that's designed to be killed by a group. It's the same thing as soloing dungeons in WoW. It takes more time to get your character powerful enough to do it. It is harder, but again, anyone with basic reading comprehension, basic social skills and enough patience can do it.
while I agree with some of your post. I could also say: Well witha basic reading comprehension, basic social skills and enough patience I can learn guitar.
But I know what you are saying, its not the same thing, and I would agree with that. In my opinion its a diffrent kind of skill.
Who knows maybe it takes skill to stick with a mmo for more then a month.
But my main point was, older MMO's were harder, whether you wanted to say they took more time, or they were more difficult...they were harder, and alot more fun.
I mean taking my expeince from FFXI, it did have a learning curve, it did take a looong time to learn the ins and outs, would I say someone who played it for 4 years have more "skill" then someone who has played it for 4 days...Yes deffinitly, is it the same type of skill required to play a guitar? no...but it is a skill of somesort.
at this point i'm just rambling..
Actually, a discussion on just what that skill is might be interesting. It's a lot more like being able to study on a subject that you aren't necessarily good at in school and still getting a passing grade. What is that skilled called? Patience and desire are factors. Perhaps just the ability to learn...you have the basics down with reading comprehension and social skills. Add patience, desire and the ability to learn and you've got an old school mmorpg player.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
World of Warcraft.
Next dead-horse question please.
It is an irtresting discussion, unfortunatly most of the time people try to discuss this it just ends with a couple of people saying "you hit one button, it takes no skill"
But I would agree with your statement above.
Now if we could just get it through some of the devs thick skulls.
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what level do YOU require i get to in WoW for me to have an opinion on it? because I have an 80 hunter (god i hope that is high enough for me to form an opinion on the game *rolleyes*)
sorry but when i get a quest to kill 12 of X mobs and i can do that in one pull and not worry about dying the game is easy. same thing in Rift, take my cleric "oh you need 10 centaurs" ... pull 10 centaurs kill them without going below 50% health and return for next quest, and mind you that was in "green" armor and the centaurs being above my level.
try doing that in EQ. hell at high levels (when i played eq) if i pull ONE mob my level i had to run for the zone.
so yeah games are getting easier, can't see that then you don't want to see it or WoW was your first MMO. because its pretty obvious.
Here is a test you can do in the comfort of your own home:
Download a free trial of Everquest 1 or Anarchy Online or Dark Age of Camelot. (Older games)
Download a free trial of World of Warcraft or Rift. (Newer Games)
Get a friend / relative / girlfriend who does not play MMOs to sit down and play each of the for 1 hour or 2 hours or 3 hours each (whatever you can get them to agree on for sake of experiment). Give them full access to internet in case they want to do research.
Once they do both, assess their proficiency at the game and general level of knowledge about it.
Ask them which one is "easier". They're not bogged down with any kind of baggage in terms of "what does easy mean". They don't have years of experience. Report back your findings.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
its more likely to be the non tech managers that the devs.
Someone mentioned that experience does not = skill. This is correct, but it does however contribute to skill level. There are a number of cross-transferrable game skills that are learned and carried over between games, so experience does = a % of skill level.
Examples:
Keyboard and mouse skills. Over time you learn from experience and rote memorisation how to optimise your clicks and keystrokes. Example, 20 years ago i used the mouse and clicked. Now i use gamer mouses, key strokes and touch typing.
Learning common gaming patterns and behaviour. Example, you learn over time to look and listen for events and triggers in boss fights. This becomes instinctive ovber time - your brain learns to subconsciously look for these things, resulting in faster reactions.
Learning how to judge when your character is in danger. Again this becomes instinctive for types of games.
Experience is a major enabler for skill, but not the only one.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
I'm not sure how somebody can state this, when as has been pointed out - you can look at the patch notes for most games and see where the games have been made easier. It is not simply a case of old farts being subjective in their memories... or the leetzor folks talking down to the n00bs.
It's right there. Concrete.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
good point.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
fools wow did make its game easier and they admitted to it i remember somewhere....sumthin about blancing the game out for the people new to rpg's and such....seriously if you play wow you know theyre a bunch of idiots....they wouldnt last if they had to play hard mode and WoW would lose even more subscriptions, they made it easier to save their own hides from losing money, wheres a noble gaming company that cares about their players more than money when you need one
Specifically, let's compare WoW with Everquest.
EQ...was a hard game. Soloing was very difficult, you could generally only defeat MOBs lower level than you (certain classes/tactics excepted), and even then it was a risky proposition. MOBs hit HARD, they would frequently daze you and make you spin. If you try to run, they will hit you and slow you down.
In addition, almost all MOBs move faster than you and will never stop chasing you unless you zone. So unless you have a speed buff that only 3 classes can give...they will run you down if you try to escape. In EQ it was extremely common for people to fight on zone borders because they were scared of getting overwhelmed and having to run.
And to make matters worse? There were random high level monsters that would wander around lower level zones just waiting to kill whoever they stumble upon. So you had to be constantly aware of your surroundings...not just looking out for adds, but also looking out for these "grief" NPCs.
Oh, and it doesn't get much easier if you group. Many groups in EQ rely on a crowd control mechanism called "mesmerize." When a MOB is "mezzed" it won't do anything until it is attacked or a long period of time passes. It is really the only way to deal with adds or large spawns in much of EQ. This meant that groups had to be HIGHLY organized. If one stray spell or AoE hit a mezzed MOB, then he would B-line straight for the squishy enchanter and there is no way the tank is getting aggro. This often spelled a wipe.
Now look at WoW....
You can solo a MOB one or two levels above you usually, most classes can deal with a few adds, and even if they die, the penalty is just a short walk. MOBs will also stop chasing after a bit of running so getting away usually isn't a big deal.
First and foremost though, much of WoW's combat can be done in almost auto-pilot mode. Tab-target...ability rotation, ability rotation...loot, repeat. This would never fly in EQ. There was too much variance in what would happen. Critical abilities (root!) would be resisted...the MOB would get a critical hit...you would get dazed a lot...all this variance required you to constantly be on your toes and ready to react.
Oh and grouping in WoW? Much of it can be done without even communicating! Just run through dungeon...tank and spank, repeat.
So yeah, games have gotten easier for sure.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
I am not very vocal and prefer to play solo for this reason, games seem to get too tedious to level solo and dungeons are usually too difficult to solo, but most games require a player to party after you get beyond level 20, I would prefer games to makes mobs strengths adjust in relation to the individuals or groups strength, this way I might play longer.
It must be true, I read it on the internet!
PDL
With few exceptions, these are ways the game has become faster -- but not necessarily easier.
DIFFICULTY REDUCTION: Hunters not needing to channel to heal pets directly increases the damage of hunters (they can DPS instead of channel), which makes things easier.
NOT DIFFICULTY REDUCTION: Dungeon finder doesn't make dungeons any easier, it just makes getting into dungeons faster/more convient. (Although the rewards for dungeon finder increase character power, which makes things easier.)
So the answer to the OP's question is that players often mistake time or convenience for difficulty.
Doubling level XP doesn't make a game harder, it only makes it more grindy.
Removing mounts doesn't make a game harder, it only makes it less convenient.
But things like improving monster HP or cast time do make a game harder, because the skill required to successfully beat monsters increases.
And of course there's a sub-discussion of fun challenge vs. un-fun challenge. If walking forward is no longer "hold W" but "press a complex series of buttons to keep walking", that's not a particularly interesting complexity -- so it's less fun, even though it's more challenging.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I've played both Rift and WoW and I'd give Rift a slight advantage over WoW in terms of hardness because of the invasion spawns and world bosses. However, Rift's quest system is setup better and is much smoother, so I'd give WoW a slight advantage over Rift in terms of difficulty in questing. But again, it's all relative. Neither game is particularly hard.
If you go back to a game like EQ1 or Ultima Online, things are definitely harder. In Ultima Online, players had to create and run their own auction houses from scratch, with no built in system help from the devs. You can't tell me that's easy.
Most of the time though, people aren't really saying game X is easier, they're saying game X is worse than the game they are comparing it to. If the game is boring (harder) it's worse. If the game is easier (boring) it's worse. If the game doesn't do enough automatically, it's worse. If the game does too much for you, it's worse. That's what they are saying.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I am sure the op must be jokeing, games like wow, eq2, lotro, most free 2 play games, have become absurdly easy and because of that quite boring. If you want games with a challenge you have to go to Vanguard or Ryzom or Eve or AOC
It's amazing how many things people claim were "harder" are actually inconsequential to actual game play.
Every time a company adds a mount, or changes mount speed, you see fifty people create "omgezmode" threads inside the hour. You ask them what in tarnation out of combat transit speed has to do with "difficulty" and ... silence.
Most of the changes I've seen in the MMO genre since EQ and UO have been positive, from the "MMO players have become a lot less masochistic" standpoint.
Yet--
You wonder where the Elite mobs went, when it happened that asspulls became very rare (creatures more spread out) and far less dangerous (one add, not a chain of six or ten). You wonder what happened to the art of corner pulls, using CC to keep a large spawn under control to make it manageable, when AOE spam replaced brains.
There are some things about MMO combat that are much easier than they used to be--truth.
Not all quality of life changes affect "challenge" in any measurable way--also truth.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
As Creslin points out a few posts back, I don't think there's any question that the average leveling experience is easier these days in order to attract and maintain a kind of casual player who never played the first generation MMOs.
However, I would say that raiding is just as hard now, only it's a different kind of hard. It's almost an apples to oranges comparison. These days raiders have access to all sorts of addons that give them tons of information and warnings but the game is tuned so that those warnings are absolutely necessary. If you don't immediately get out of the fire or get out of that circle on the ground in time before it detonates, you're dead.
I also think there's just so much more of an emphasis on performance these days, since all your results are tracked with damage meters. When you're measuring damage per second even the slightest deviation from perfect play can result in big losses.
I think the hardest of the hardcore raiders from back in the day are probably the same people that are doing it in WoW. Take a boss like M'uru in WoW. This mob was so overtuned originally that guilds literally wiped on him 500 times without success. In WoW you have (had?) a hard coded 1% chance for your spells to be resisted, and if RNG screwed your paladin tank, it was a wipe. When they finally did nerf his and his adds' HPs to make the 6 minute enrage timer slightly more forgiving, some of these guilds were disappointed.
TLDR For the most part games are easier, but the hardness can still be there.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Yeah cuz RIFT is so hard . ...
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;TLDR version.
It came from the truth, deny, old man argument laugh if you want....But for the most part, they have...Some games are not that way, but the overall themepark design is. Do like one post said, go play an older game, then play newer games, it's fairly obvious, unless you cant admit the truth to yourself.
The problem with this thread is the use of the word EASIER. Making a game faster is making it easier from one aspect. Come up with a better concept of what is really being sought in the discussion.
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https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"