uo is fun back.than because it's new, and players take that as a standard way of playing mmo. but it didn't garner much players because of its playstyle. out comes wow and the rest is history. tedious game play won't make anymore, and even now theme park is start to face issues. players wants more innovative things to do, more innovative new game play, not returning to the old. we will see how the next Gen of devs brings us.
UO came out during a time when folks were still making the move to 33.6k and 56k modems.
It was not until around 2001 that home broadband actually began to kick in.
With that, came many more MMORPGs. People had many choices - graphics, playstyle, etc.
It is funny to look at how many of those games from the late 90s and early 2000s are still around...while how short-lived so many of the "modern" games are.
edit: Some sites report that the number of people that had broadband at home jumped from 60 to 86 million in the US between March 05 and March 06. Much like EQ came along at the right time to catch some of that initial broadband bump - WoW definitely came along at the right time for some beefy bumps in home broadband usage.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
I think WoW has irrevocably changed the genre. In an industry where little risk is taken amongst the top studios, what makes you think we're going to see a dramatic shift anytime soon? It's going to be incremental; we're starting to see it now, but it's going to be a very slow process.
I will restate "where there is no risk, there is no reward". An example of this I shall give, imagine if the whole world is open pvp, except for towns where you are mostly safe. On death, you lose everything you were carrying including your gear. Now it's up to you to decide how much risk you want to take, do you equip an expensive, rare but powerful set of gear with you? Or do you wear what most people are using, average affordable to lose gear. That's up to you, but there may be such monsters in the game that are so powerful that you need powerful gear just to stand a chance to beat them. These monsters can carry insane riches and you can be very wealthy if you can kill them. That there is risk vs reward my friend, do you take the risk of using expensive and powerful gear to gain the huge reward?
I can sympathise with that but most players are casual and don't want to see hours of playing time being lost in some 20 vs 1 PvP attack on you. It will quickly thin out the playerbase. Such games only cater hardcore gamers with too much time to waste. And will only be niche games.
Like EVE, for instance. It will attract "griefers" that will equip low quality gear and team up to gank people in good gear. Being organized takes time and many players don´t have time for that. Many players that play mmorpgs like to be able to do a lot of solo play. It´s very tedious and time consuming to be forced to team up with a lot of people to get safe passage to basically anywhere. Look at EVE, where most players hardly ever leave high security space as a result.
Also, a lot of games do have open world PvP, but I think that a game without easily accessible "practice" arenas/battlegrounds with equal teams will lose its casual playerbase.
If you want a UO-like game you better think of mechanics that will also cater casual players. Because that's what made games like WoW and GW so succesful: everyone can play it, old and young, casual and hardcore.
Relax guys it is just an opinion not some fact. Even though wishful thinking but WOW clones are not going anywhere and UO era is not coming back in any forseeable future. Infact we are getting more sandbox / themepark hybrid MMOS.
Sorry OP but i disagree with you.
WoW clones are done, that much is obvious. In a few months when the SWTOR hype fades and people see it as a failed game that will be the final nail in the coffin, it doesn't matter how much money you pour into the game, it doesn't matter if you use a hugely popular IP like starwars, and it doesn't matter if you use a top game developer like Bioware, the game will still fail if it follows the WoW formula.
Isometric games are on the horizon. Put the two together, and we have a chance at a UO style game, or even possibly a new Ultima MMO. It might not be any time soon, but let's get one thing straight, to say that there will be be such a game is dumb. I at least believe that at some point in future EA will decide to make a new Ultima MMO, the question isn't if it will happen, the question is will it be any good if EA are behind it. I suppose that all depends on if they learn from previous lessons.
Many old IP's get revamped, many are highly successful for it. Ultima online is the grandfather of mmorpgs and its never had a re-vamp, that time will come, maybe not now, it could be years, a decade even, but to say it will never happen just shows how ignorant you are.
Whoever keeps reporting this thread as spam, you're being very childish.
I am not ignorant i am just realistic. If you think UO era is comign back that is your opinion. Only because i disagree with it doesn't mean i am ignorant. However i would bet my money on more facebook games in future.
I think most will agree with me when they say they want a game that feels like they're actually IMMERESED in a world. And I think most would agree that an iso just doesn't do it. I'm not saying iso games are bad, I loved UO. But I did not feel like I was truely immersed within that world.
Personally I prefer 3rd person view as I enjoy seeing my badass looking char do his thing. I don't enjoy first person in MMOs cause I actually want to see my char and his armor; why work so hard to get it if I can't see my awesomeness?
As much as you wanted to make a productive post....you really didn't. This is no better then making "WoW killer" #23092309 thread.
This thread does not talk of any game coming along and killing WoW, so no, it's not a WoW killer thread. WoW is dying a slow death because people are bored with that style of game. How can you compare such a statement with someone claiming that "X" will kill WoW? The only thing that will kill WoW is people becoming bored with WoW faster than it gets new subscribers which has been happening for some time.
We dont need a new UO, most people never played UO....
What UO needs is just a new 3D graphical environment (Skyrim level of detail) with true 3D WASD movement... and new fresh servers, and its good to go...
I know that i would play it...
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
We dont need a new UO, most people never played UO....
What UO needs is just a new 3D graphical environment (Skyrim level of detail) with true 3D WASD movement... and new fresh servers, and its good to go...
I know that i would play it...
Seen the Lineage: Eternal trailer? Watch that in HD, there's your isometric skyrim.
The day of reckoning is near, we are presented with WoW clone after WoW clone, they all fail hard. ...
First-Person-View or Isometric-View don't really make that much of a difference. Nor does that change the gameplay in any significant way. Depending on the game engine you can already now have both within the same game. Just change the camera angle.
The MMORPG gameplay somehow was pigeon holed into: optimize the performance of your combat role and collect better equipment. I don't want to say that this is bad in itself. But what alternatives do you have within the genre? Play MMORPG A, cap a toon, participate in endgame to get better shiny thingies. What if you're bored? Switch to MMORPG B, cap a toon, participate in endgame to get better shiny thingies. What if you're still bored? OK, you can take a break and/or play something completely different. The only real hook that might keep you playing an MMORPG is if you find a group of like minded players (or people you get to like) to spend your free time with.
I'm not sure game companys can make anything different if they want to attract a large playerbase. If they want to offer a controlled environment they better stick to the themepark philosophy. If they don't want that (or only want to control the environment to a smaller extent) then they can follow the path that EVE is walking. The players, especially the kinds of players which populate the game world, determine the in-game atmosphere. Without any sort of control over the game environment the game company has no tools to reward or punish certain player behaviour. It's also not easy to identify means which help push a game's community towards a certain direction. A laissez-faire philosophy doesn't always work in a satisfying way.
In older CRPGs I liked the first few levels more than the rest of the game. During the first few levels the party/adventurer was weak and a random encounter could result in death. You had to consider how exhausted the party/adventurer was and how many resources were still available. You had to consider how far you could go and explore and still be able to return alive to rest and heal up.
Today you are lead from questing zone to questing zone and you can be sure that you can beat up every NPC you encounter (and immedialtely rest after a single encounter). I'd rather have to make a decission whether to fight, avoid a fight or try sneaking (optionally with more non-violent ways to achieve what you want). But today's classes are so specialized (i.e. specialized for their combat role) now that not every class can sneak. And the NPC aggro range philosophy (the effect of which is in some games determined by level differences) does sometimes prohibit sneaking even for the classes that can sneak.
Even dungeons are rather harmless today. You can't even get lost. Maybe if you try really really hard you may get lost in a dungeon that has no side passages, no blind alleys and no secret passages.
A single player CRPG or one with a small scale multiplayer mode can really experiment with new concepts and ideas. If you want to warrant a player a certain gaming experience you have to make some concessions and compromises. The larger the multiplayer mode and the more players you aim at, the more compromises are required.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I think most will agree with me when they say they want a game that feels like they're actually IMMERESED in a world. And I think most would agree that an iso just doesn't do it. I'm not saying iso games are bad, I loved UO. But I did not feel like I was truely immersed within that world.
Personally I prefer 3rd person view as I enjoy seeing my badass looking char do his thing. I don't enjoy first person in MMOs cause I actually want to see my char and his armor; why work so hard to get it if I can't see my awesomeness?
As much as you wanted to make a productive post....you really didn't. This is no better then making "WoW killer" #23092309 thread.
This thread does not talk of any game coming along and killing WoW, so no, it's not a WoW killer thread. WoW is dying a slow death because people are bored with that style of game. How can you compare such a statement with someone claiming that "X" will kill WoW? The only thing that will kill WoW is people becoming bored with WoW faster than it gets new subscribers which has been happening for some time.
WoW losing subs is due to people being bored of WoW, nothing else.
If, as you keep claiming, people were bored of "that style game", then why do all of the 3D games that keep being released sell millions of copies?
Isometric games are not new, they will not be the next big thing, and 3D games are not in decline.
A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.
I think most will agree with me when they say they want a game that feels like they're actually IMMERESED in a world. And I think most would agree that an iso just doesn't do it. I'm not saying iso games are bad, I loved UO. But I did not feel like I was truely immersed within that world.
Personally I prefer 3rd person view as I enjoy seeing my badass looking char do his thing. I don't enjoy first person in MMOs cause I actually want to see my char and his armor; why work so hard to get it if I can't see my awesomeness?
As much as you wanted to make a productive post....you really didn't. This is no better then making "WoW killer" #23092309 thread.
This thread does not talk of any game coming along and killing WoW, so no, it's not a WoW killer thread. WoW is dying a slow death because people are bored with that style of game. How can you compare such a statement with someone claiming that "X" will kill WoW? The only thing that will kill WoW is people becoming bored with WoW faster than it gets new subscribers which has been happening for some time.
WoW losing subs is due to people being bored of WoW, nothing else.
If, as you keep claiming, people were bored of "that style game", then why do all of the 3D games that keep being released sell millions of copies?
Isometric games are not new, they will not be the next big thing, and 3D games are not in decline.
I see that everyone is avoiding commenting on lineage eternal. Watch the gameplay video in HD high resolution on youtube. The graphics are amazing and how they've done it makes the world a great deal more immersive. It's like they've recaptured what made games like baldurs gate and UO look good back in the day when those graphics were considered good. Skip to the section in the woods with the spirit archer and watch the wolves bodies roll as the archer kills them.
I would play the game in 1st/3rd or iso....I even tried to look some iso games up not long ago, just to see if anyone had anything decent to offer, but mostly everything was a f2p game and had things I didn't like (I don't like f2p to start with, to state my bias).
I just left UO again, I don't like the new skill system, verse the old one, but I still play it with the 2D client, it doesn't bother me to play an iso game. If they would come out with a classic server, I would of been on it and still be playing.
It does seem that MMOs are now going to a mix of themepark and sandbox a little more, which I like, these super railed/shallow games have been a major disappointment imo.
I do not know if MMOs are going to go as far as the OP says, but if so, I am on board...But heck, I am happy to atleast see some of the rails get thrown away.
It sure dies alot. Cant you start dooming FPS or RTS genre for a change? Just give the poor feller a break for a change...
Also, isometric view is very nice for singleplayer hacknslash or co-op games, but I dont like it at all for a game that is supposed to have thousands of people running around simultaneously, just very poor view point for such a crowd.
I see that everyone is avoiding commenting on lineage eternal. Watch the gameplay video in HD high resolution on youtube. The graphics are amazing and how they've done it makes the world a great deal more immersive. It's like they've recaptured what made games like baldurs gate and UO look good back in the day when those graphics were considered good. Skip to the section in the woods with the spirit archer and watch the wolves bodies roll as the archer kills them.
I watched the video. What I saw was a hack&slash RPG style like I've seen a lot, with mechanics that I encountered in a number of those as well, a lot of them being gimmicks. There are a number of those around, nothing special.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
The day of reckoning is near, we are presented with WoW clone after WoW clone, they all fail hard. I personally don't think SWTOR is going to be any different in that regard. WoW is losing subs, down almost 2 million this past year. Blizzard has a new mmo on the horizon, and say it's nothing like WoW.
Diablo 3 is going to be released early next year, sure it's not hugely different to WoW, infact it's not even a full mmo, but what it does do different is an important one - it's an isometric game. Isometric mmos haven't really been considered for years, not since EQ came along and became very popular back in the days of UO. Perhaps that time is finally over, are people sick of not only WoW clones, but also the 1st/3rd person view?
Diablo 3 is going to be a hit, it's going to break records, the Diablo: book of cain is already breaking book selling records, beating twilight for top spot, and it's still only a preorder.
Diablo 3 is going to bring isometric back to the mainstream. What other popular mmos were isometric? I can think off one, Ultima Online. Isometric doesn't have to mean crappy graphics any longer.
Have the Lineage developers forseen all of this? Their new isometric mmo, Lineage: Eternal would point toward this fact
I foresee a new ERA of isometric mmorpgs, except the WoW clone formula has already proven no longer effective, people are bored of the themepark grind for levels and gear that is the same in almost every mmorpg that has released in the past 10 years. This could mean a new beginning for the style of game that Ultima Online once was.
"But that game will just attract griefers who want to kill players and ruin their day" I'm sure it will, but even games like WoW attract griefers, but they just grief you in other ways, and you can't retaliate.
That game may attract griefers, but I am not a griefer. I am just a player who is sick of the themepark ezmode level grinds that exist today, playing them feels more like a job, and not even a job I enjoy. Hell, i'm not even into pvp, but i'd sure as hell buy this game if it were made.
I am the kind of player who enjoys the thrill of adventure, there is no adventure without risk. There is no risk in todays themepark mmos, and where there is no risk, there is no real reward, no gratification.
At times you will be griefed, you will die and lose something valuable, this is certain, but other times the opposite will happen. and you will be overjoyed. You can not experience this thrill in todays themepark mmos, playing them makes me feel like a zombie.
I will restate "where there is no risk, there is no reward". An example of this I shall give, imagine if the whole world is open pvp, except for towns where you are mostly safe. On death, you lose everything you were carrying including your gear. Now it's up to you to decide how much risk you want to take, do you equip an expensive, rare but powerful set of gear with you? Or do you wear what most people are using, average affordable to lose gear. That's up to you, but there may be such monsters in the game that are so powerful that you need powerful gear just to stand a chance to beat them. These monsters can carry insane riches and you can be very wealthy if you can kill them. That there is risk vs reward my friend, do you take the risk of using expensive and powerful gear to gain the huge reward?
Then there is the idea of player housing. Most games today don't have it, and even in those that do it doesn't seem all that great. Why was player housing so awesome in Ultima Online? Because it was a dangerous wilderness, and that made your home in the wilderness feel that much more special. It's your safe haven in a dangerous yet rewarding world.
Ultima Online over 10 years ago:
Meaningful risk vs reward
Player Housing
Crafting that meant something, not something every had because they could.
Player Driven economy
Flexible Skill Trees
Open world PvP
Open world dungeons
Great community
Not a gear grind
Player Skill mattered
Good Lore
Multi Faction Wars - Guild Wars That meant something
I'm not asking for a UO clone, but perhaps it's time for mmorpgs to return to the old and try something new. Seriously, how dumb does that sound? If only a major developer had the intelligence to try something like this. Perhaps now that the WoW-clone cash cow has been milked dry, they might.
Who knows, it could even be Blizzard who will pull this off, i shall mention again, we all know about "Titan" and how it's supposedly nothing like WoW.
I think this post is testament to a wild flight of fancy by a UO or Diablo fan. Reality is that Lineage Eternal: Twilight Resistance is not even going to make release in 2012, and Diablo 3 is likely to fall into Q2 now of 2012. Richard Garriot the brains behind UO is now making social networking games for web browsers. The return of isometric mmorpgs is not on the cards as we come to the end of 2011 at all as near as I can tell.
So many logic and reasoning flaws that people on this site keep committing...
Ok, bear with me:
some muslim extremists being terrorists =/= all muslims being terrorists
gamers being bored with SC2 or Modern Warfare 2 =/= gamers being bored with all RTS or shooter games of the same style
MMO gamers being bored with WoW =/= MMO gamers being bored with all themepark MMO's
MMO gamers being bored with WoW =/= MMO gamers being automatically instantly in love with sandbox MMO's
Many MMO gamers being bored with WOW "could" mean that they are bored with themepark MMO's, especially when most other themeparks tend to fall off rather quickly in terms of long term subscribers. (see Rift as an excellent example of this) I think how SWTOR fairs will be a great indicator of whether or not this is the case.
And while MMO gamers being bored with themepark games such as SWTOR or WOW does not mean they'll be in love with sanbox MMO's, (whatever those really are btw) it "could" mean they're ready for something different to come along.
Now the trick is, what exactly would constitute a different and fun MMORPG experience to those players. That's the million dollar question.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I see that everyone is avoiding commenting on lineage eternal. Watch the gameplay video in HD high resolution on youtube. The graphics are amazing and how they've done it makes the world a great deal more immersive. It's like they've recaptured what made games like baldurs gate and UO look good back in the day when those graphics were considered good. Skip to the section in the woods with the spirit archer and watch the wolves bodies roll as the archer kills them.
Wow, I hadn't really noticed Lineage Eternal before, but the gameplay video looks great. It reminded me of Diablo and Continent of the Ninth (C9) a bit. The gameplay looks like it's a console game without what PC gamers often dislike about it: the controls.
The day of reckoning is near, we are presented with WoW clone after WoW clone, they all fail hard. I personally don't think SWTOR is going to be any different in that regard. WoW is losing subs, down almost 2 million this past year. Blizzard has a new mmo on the horizon, and say it's nothing like WoW.
Diablo 3 is going to be released early next year, sure it's not hugely different to WoW, infact it's not even a full mmo, but what it does do different is an important one - it's an isometric game. Isometric mmos haven't really been considered for years, not since EQ came along and became very popular back in the days of UO. Perhaps that time is finally over, are people sick of not only WoW clones, but also the 1st/3rd person view?
Diablo 3 is going to be a hit, it's going to break records, the Diablo: book of cain is already breaking book selling records, beating twilight for top spot, and it's still only a preorder.
Diablo 3 is going to bring isometric back to the mainstream. What other popular mmos were isometric? I can think off one, Ultima Online. Isometric doesn't have to mean crappy graphics any longer.
Have the Lineage developers forseen all of this? Their new isometric mmo, Lineage: Eternal would point toward this fact
I foresee a new ERA of isometric mmorpgs, except the WoW clone formula has already proven no longer effective, people are bored of the themepark grind for levels and gear that is the same in almost every mmorpg that has released in the past 10 years. This could mean a new beginning for the style of game that Ultima Online once was.
"But that game will just attract griefers who want to kill players and ruin their day" I'm sure it will, but even games like WoW attract griefers, but they just grief you in other ways, and you can't retaliate.
That game may attract griefers, but I am not a griefer. I am just a player who is sick of the themepark ezmode level grinds that exist today, playing them feels more like a job, and not even a job I enjoy. Hell, i'm not even into pvp, but i'd sure as hell buy this game if it were made.
I am the kind of player who enjoys the thrill of adventure, there is no adventure without risk. There is no risk in todays themepark mmos, and where there is no risk, there is no real reward, no gratification.
At times you will be griefed, you will die and lose something valuable, this is certain, but other times the opposite will happen. and you will be overjoyed. You can not experience this thrill in todays themepark mmos, playing them makes me feel like a zombie.
I will restate "where there is no risk, there is no reward". An example of this I shall give, imagine if the whole world is open pvp, except for towns where you are mostly safe. On death, you lose everything you were carrying including your gear. Now it's up to you to decide how much risk you want to take, do you equip an expensive, rare but powerful set of gear with you? Or do you wear what most people are using, average affordable to lose gear. That's up to you, but there may be such monsters in the game that are so powerful that you need powerful gear just to stand a chance to beat them. These monsters can carry insane riches and you can be very wealthy if you can kill them. That there is risk vs reward my friend, do you take the risk of using expensive and powerful gear to gain the huge reward?
Then there is the idea of player housing. Most games today don't have it, and even in those that do it doesn't seem all that great. Why was player housing so awesome in Ultima Online? Because it was a dangerous wilderness, and that made your home in the wilderness feel that much more special. It's your safe haven in a dangerous yet rewarding world.
Ultima Online over 10 years ago:
Meaningful risk vs reward
Player Housing
Crafting that meant something, not something every had because they could.
Player Driven economy
Flexible Skill Trees
Open world PvP
Open world dungeons
Great community
Not a gear grind
Player Skill mattered
Good Lore
Multi Faction Wars - Guild Wars That meant something
I'm not asking for a UO clone, but perhaps it's time for mmorpgs to return to the old and try something new. Seriously, how dumb does that sound? If only a major developer had the intelligence to try something like this. Perhaps now that the WoW-clone cash cow has been milked dry, they might.
Who knows, it could even be Blizzard who will pull this off, i shall mention again, we all know about "Titan" and how it's supposedly nothing like WoW.
I think this post is testament to a wild flight of fancy by a UO or Diablo fan. Reality is that Lineage Eternal: Twilight Resistance is not even going to make release in 2012, and Diablo 3 is likely to fall into Q2 now of 2012. Richard Garriot the brains behind UO is now making social networking games for web browsers. The return of isometric mmorpgs is not on the cards as we come to the end of 2011 at all as near as I can tell.
How can you mistake "D3 early 2012 release" for Q2 2012? Blizzard only just a few days have their investor conference call and they reaffirmed that the D3 release is strongly on track for an early 2012 release. They don't even use the words "Q1" which is unusual because usually they do use the quarter term, but instead they just say "early 2012" So that probably really does mean early 2012. Q2 is not early 2012.
You say this as if you expect SWTOR to live up to expectations? The game is going to go the way of Aion. Oh but it has big preorder numbers you say? So what, Aion and FFXIV had big preorder numbers, and they failed hard.
SWTOR's upcoming big fail is part of what's going to help end the era of the WoW-clone. If a massive IP like starwars, made by a great company like Bioware, big budget mmo cannot make it, then what hope does any other WoW-clone have? Nothing, all they can hope for is to break even from preorders, they most definetly shall not be making riches off millions of subscribers because most will quit after the free month.
Again, just look at NCsofts Aion or Square Enix's FFXIV to see how just because a game is big budget by a big name using a big brand, it does not equate to success. These games were huge before they released, they were exactly the same as what SWTOR is right now, hugely overhyped games that lose most of their customers shortly after release.
Oops, I forgot to mention Warhammer, another hugely hyped up game with massive preorder numbers, not doing so well now is it?
OmaliMMO Business CorrespondentMemberUncommonPosts: 1,177
I'm always astounded by how many expert analysts come out of the woodwork whenever Blizzard announces a drop in subscription, ready to announce that this is the death of themepark games while ignoring the actual complaints of players leaving: That they've completed all the content in the latest expansion pack. Blizzard stated in a conference call in May that Cataclysm brought in the regular jump in players returning to try out the content, and subsequent standard drop in players once the faster players completed the content.
This can't be a drop in subscriptions because World of Warcraft is seven years old and is moving exactly in the direction that old MMOs go, it must be a sign on the industry as a whole.
So many logic and reasoning flaws that people on this site keep committing...
Ok, bear with me:
some muslim extremists being terrorists =/= all muslims being terrorists
gamers being bored with SC2 or Modern Warfare 2 =/= gamers being bored with all RTS or shooter games of the same style
MMO gamers being bored with WoW =/= MMO gamers being bored with all themepark MMO's
MMO gamers being bored with WoW =/= MMO gamers being automatically instantly in love with sandbox MMO's
Many MMO gamers being bored with WOW "could" mean that they are bored with themepark MMO's, especially when most other themeparks tend to fall off rather quickly in terms of long term subscribers. (see Rift as an excellent example of this) I think how SWTOR fairs will be a great indicator of whether or not this is the case.
And while MMO gamers being bored with themepark games such as SWTOR or WOW does not mean they'll be in love with sanbox MMO's, (whatever those really are btw) it "could" mean they're ready for something different to come along.
Now the trick is, what exactly would constitute a different and fun MMORPG experience to those players. That's the million dollar question.
The flaw in the reasoning of the OP (and many others on these forums) isn't acknowledging the possibility that such a situation could be the case for some people in the referred group, but to extrapolate the observation into a blanket generalisation and present that as a surefire case.
Examples:
WoW is losing subs => WoW is doomed
No, it's not. Even EQ which lost 200k to its successor WoW still had a fairly large subscriber base for years afterwards.
If some gamers have grown tired of MW2 could mean that some of those have grown tired of that style of shooters in general, but it's definitely not the case that everyone who grows tired of MW2 has grown tired of that style of shooters nor that type of multiplayer games, and the same applies for people who've grown tired of SC2, doesn't mean that RTS games like that in general has lost their interest.
Same for WoW and themepark MMO's.
How many are tired of themepark MMO's or just tired of WoW, only time will be able to tell.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Comments
UO came out during a time when folks were still making the move to 33.6k and 56k modems.
It was not until around 2001 that home broadband actually began to kick in.
With that, came many more MMORPGs. People had many choices - graphics, playstyle, etc.
It is funny to look at how many of those games from the late 90s and early 2000s are still around...while how short-lived so many of the "modern" games are.
edit: Some sites report that the number of people that had broadband at home jumped from 60 to 86 million in the US between March 05 and March 06. Much like EQ came along at the right time to catch some of that initial broadband bump - WoW definitely came along at the right time for some beefy bumps in home broadband usage.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
I think WoW has irrevocably changed the genre. In an industry where little risk is taken amongst the top studios, what makes you think we're going to see a dramatic shift anytime soon? It's going to be incremental; we're starting to see it now, but it's going to be a very slow process.
I can sympathise with that but most players are casual and don't want to see hours of playing time being lost in some 20 vs 1 PvP attack on you. It will quickly thin out the playerbase. Such games only cater hardcore gamers with too much time to waste. And will only be niche games.
Like EVE, for instance. It will attract "griefers" that will equip low quality gear and team up to gank people in good gear. Being organized takes time and many players don´t have time for that. Many players that play mmorpgs like to be able to do a lot of solo play. It´s very tedious and time consuming to be forced to team up with a lot of people to get safe passage to basically anywhere. Look at EVE, where most players hardly ever leave high security space as a result.
Also, a lot of games do have open world PvP, but I think that a game without easily accessible "practice" arenas/battlegrounds with equal teams will lose its casual playerbase.
If you want a UO-like game you better think of mechanics that will also cater casual players. Because that's what made games like WoW and GW so succesful: everyone can play it, old and young, casual and hardcore.
Cast your vote: The importance of character customisation
actually, lets look back at Asheron's Call
Yep, same here.
I am not ignorant i am just realistic. If you think UO era is comign back that is your opinion. Only because i disagree with it doesn't mean i am ignorant. However i would bet my money on more facebook games in future.
This thread does not talk of any game coming along and killing WoW, so no, it's not a WoW killer thread. WoW is dying a slow death because people are bored with that style of game. How can you compare such a statement with someone claiming that "X" will kill WoW? The only thing that will kill WoW is people becoming bored with WoW faster than it gets new subscribers which has been happening for some time.
We dont need a new UO, most people never played UO....
What UO needs is just a new 3D graphical environment (Skyrim level of detail) with true 3D WASD movement... and new fresh servers, and its good to go...
I know that i would play it...
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Seen the Lineage: Eternal trailer? Watch that in HD, there's your isometric skyrim.
First-Person-View or Isometric-View don't really make that much of a difference. Nor does that change the gameplay in any significant way. Depending on the game engine you can already now have both within the same game. Just change the camera angle.
The MMORPG gameplay somehow was pigeon holed into: optimize the performance of your combat role and collect better equipment. I don't want to say that this is bad in itself. But what alternatives do you have within the genre? Play MMORPG A, cap a toon, participate in endgame to get better shiny thingies. What if you're bored? Switch to MMORPG B, cap a toon, participate in endgame to get better shiny thingies. What if you're still bored? OK, you can take a break and/or play something completely different. The only real hook that might keep you playing an MMORPG is if you find a group of like minded players (or people you get to like) to spend your free time with.
I'm not sure game companys can make anything different if they want to attract a large playerbase. If they want to offer a controlled environment they better stick to the themepark philosophy. If they don't want that (or only want to control the environment to a smaller extent) then they can follow the path that EVE is walking. The players, especially the kinds of players which populate the game world, determine the in-game atmosphere. Without any sort of control over the game environment the game company has no tools to reward or punish certain player behaviour. It's also not easy to identify means which help push a game's community towards a certain direction. A laissez-faire philosophy doesn't always work in a satisfying way.
In older CRPGs I liked the first few levels more than the rest of the game. During the first few levels the party/adventurer was weak and a random encounter could result in death. You had to consider how exhausted the party/adventurer was and how many resources were still available. You had to consider how far you could go and explore and still be able to return alive to rest and heal up.
Today you are lead from questing zone to questing zone and you can be sure that you can beat up every NPC you encounter (and immedialtely rest after a single encounter). I'd rather have to make a decission whether to fight, avoid a fight or try sneaking (optionally with more non-violent ways to achieve what you want). But today's classes are so specialized (i.e. specialized for their combat role) now that not every class can sneak. And the NPC aggro range philosophy (the effect of which is in some games determined by level differences) does sometimes prohibit sneaking even for the classes that can sneak.
Even dungeons are rather harmless today. You can't even get lost. Maybe if you try really really hard you may get lost in a dungeon that has no side passages, no blind alleys and no secret passages.
A single player CRPG or one with a small scale multiplayer mode can really experiment with new concepts and ideas. If you want to warrant a player a certain gaming experience you have to make some concessions and compromises. The larger the multiplayer mode and the more players you aim at, the more compromises are required.
So many logic and reasoning flaws that people on this site keep committing...
Ok, bear with me:
some muslim extremists being terrorists =/= all muslims being terrorists
gamers being bored with SC2 or Modern Warfare 2 =/= gamers being bored with all RTS or shooter games of the same style
MMO gamers being bored with WoW =/= MMO gamers being bored with all themepark MMO's
MMO gamers being bored with WoW =/= MMO gamers being automatically instantly in love with sandbox MMO's
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
WoW losing subs is due to people being bored of WoW, nothing else.
If, as you keep claiming, people were bored of "that style game", then why do all of the 3D games that keep being released sell millions of copies?
Isometric games are not new, they will not be the next big thing, and 3D games are not in decline.
A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.
I see that everyone is avoiding commenting on lineage eternal. Watch the gameplay video in HD high resolution on youtube. The graphics are amazing and how they've done it makes the world a great deal more immersive. It's like they've recaptured what made games like baldurs gate and UO look good back in the day when those graphics were considered good. Skip to the section in the woods with the spirit archer and watch the wolves bodies roll as the archer kills them.
I would play the game in 1st/3rd or iso....I even tried to look some iso games up not long ago, just to see if anyone had anything decent to offer, but mostly everything was a f2p game and had things I didn't like (I don't like f2p to start with, to state my bias).
I just left UO again, I don't like the new skill system, verse the old one, but I still play it with the 2D client, it doesn't bother me to play an iso game. If they would come out with a classic server, I would of been on it and still be playing.
It does seem that MMOs are now going to a mix of themepark and sandbox a little more, which I like, these super railed/shallow games have been a major disappointment imo.
I do not know if MMOs are going to go as far as the OP says, but if so, I am on board...But heck, I am happy to atleast see some of the rails get thrown away.
Omg, themepark mmo genre is dying again?
It sure dies alot. Cant you start dooming FPS or RTS genre for a change? Just give the poor feller a break for a change...
Also, isometric view is very nice for singleplayer hacknslash or co-op games, but I dont like it at all for a game that is supposed to have thousands of people running around simultaneously, just very poor view point for such a crowd.
I watched the video. What I saw was a hack&slash RPG style like I've seen a lot, with mechanics that I encountered in a number of those as well, a lot of them being gimmicks. There are a number of those around, nothing special.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I think this post is testament to a wild flight of fancy by a UO or Diablo fan. Reality is that Lineage Eternal: Twilight Resistance is not even going to make release in 2012, and Diablo 3 is likely to fall into Q2 now of 2012. Richard Garriot the brains behind UO is now making social networking games for web browsers. The return of isometric mmorpgs is not on the cards as we come to the end of 2011 at all as near as I can tell.
We can't say that The ERA of WoW clones is over with games like SWTOR around the corner.
Someone call the police, this person just stole my words!
Many MMO gamers being bored with WOW "could" mean that they are bored with themepark MMO's, especially when most other themeparks tend to fall off rather quickly in terms of long term subscribers. (see Rift as an excellent example of this) I think how SWTOR fairs will be a great indicator of whether or not this is the case.
And while MMO gamers being bored with themepark games such as SWTOR or WOW does not mean they'll be in love with sanbox MMO's, (whatever those really are btw) it "could" mean they're ready for something different to come along.
Now the trick is, what exactly would constitute a different and fun MMORPG experience to those players. That's the million dollar question.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Wow, I hadn't really noticed Lineage Eternal before, but the gameplay video looks great. It reminded me of Diablo and Continent of the Ninth (C9) a bit. The gameplay looks like it's a console game without what PC gamers often dislike about it: the controls.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCdbdsFgNGI
for CE gameplay, great graphics in there, and doesn't seem like a WoW clone at all. Very OP heroes going through hordes of enemies, looks quite epic.
How can you mistake "D3 early 2012 release" for Q2 2012? Blizzard only just a few days have their investor conference call and they reaffirmed that the D3 release is strongly on track for an early 2012 release. They don't even use the words "Q1" which is unusual because usually they do use the quarter term, but instead they just say "early 2012" So that probably really does mean early 2012. Q2 is not early 2012.
You say this as if you expect SWTOR to live up to expectations? The game is going to go the way of Aion. Oh but it has big preorder numbers you say? So what, Aion and FFXIV had big preorder numbers, and they failed hard.
SWTOR's upcoming big fail is part of what's going to help end the era of the WoW-clone. If a massive IP like starwars, made by a great company like Bioware, big budget mmo cannot make it, then what hope does any other WoW-clone have? Nothing, all they can hope for is to break even from preorders, they most definetly shall not be making riches off millions of subscribers because most will quit after the free month.
Again, just look at NCsofts Aion or Square Enix's FFXIV to see how just because a game is big budget by a big name using a big brand, it does not equate to success. These games were huge before they released, they were exactly the same as what SWTOR is right now, hugely overhyped games that lose most of their customers shortly after release.
Oops, I forgot to mention Warhammer, another hugely hyped up game with massive preorder numbers, not doing so well now is it?
I'm always astounded by how many expert analysts come out of the woodwork whenever Blizzard announces a drop in subscription, ready to announce that this is the death of themepark games while ignoring the actual complaints of players leaving: That they've completed all the content in the latest expansion pack. Blizzard stated in a conference call in May that Cataclysm brought in the regular jump in players returning to try out the content, and subsequent standard drop in players once the faster players completed the content.
This can't be a drop in subscriptions because World of Warcraft is seven years old and is moving exactly in the direction that old MMOs go, it must be a sign on the industry as a whole.
The flaw in the reasoning of the OP (and many others on these forums) isn't acknowledging the possibility that such a situation could be the case for some people in the referred group, but to extrapolate the observation into a blanket generalisation and present that as a surefire case.
Examples:
WoW is losing subs => WoW is doomed
No, it's not. Even EQ which lost 200k to its successor WoW still had a fairly large subscriber base for years afterwards.
If some gamers have grown tired of MW2 could mean that some of those have grown tired of that style of shooters in general, but it's definitely not the case that everyone who grows tired of MW2 has grown tired of that style of shooters nor that type of multiplayer games, and the same applies for people who've grown tired of SC2, doesn't mean that RTS games like that in general has lost their interest.
Same for WoW and themepark MMO's.
How many are tired of themepark MMO's or just tired of WoW, only time will be able to tell.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."