^Not exactly true. GW2 does do some hand-holding and it does have npcs telling you where to go. They just cleverly disguise it as "scout npcs." They are the guys that say, "Hey, there is a dynamic event going on in this area, go head over there and help out." Then you go to the DE and basically get an extended "chain" of things to do (sounds kinda questy) that has to be completed in stages.
Again, I'm not saying that is a negative, as I like some of the things GW2 is trying to do, particularly with the DE system, but lets not act like at least some of what they are doing isn't just a more cleverly disguised themepark package.
It is a huge difference between a npc you can ask "whats up, Doc?" and a quest that leads you to the next questhub.
Explorers will probably never even bother to speak to any scout at all, but in regular quest based themeparks you will be lead to if not all new places then most.
What differs between quests and DEs is that you aren't as railed in by DEs, with quests you more or less needs to do things in specific order. Sure, while you are in a DE you have to do something that the DE tells you needs doing but you can choose and pick what you think is most fun or just run around and rezz people. In a regular themepark you need to do all the things the quest tells you to do to complete the quest.
GW2 wont be a sandbox of course, far from it but it wont really be a themepark either, at least not a regular one.
I think part of the problem (and I was guilty of it in earlier posts) is that we tend to think about thinks in black and white terms. Sandbox vs. Themepark in this case. This is a continuum....sandbox---------------------------------------------themepark, and somehwere in between is where most games lie. Now there are several different views as to what sandbox and themepark are so any one game may fall on a different part of the continuum for different people. For example games like everquest or Asherons Call have some aspects of open world sandoxy ideas as well as themepark aspects, only different people will weigh the aspects differently. I see GW2 along these lines. I may view it more towards the themepark, but people with different ideas of what a sandbox is (different from mine at least) will see it differently on the continuum.
Ill start off and say I have grown to despise, loathe and detest themepark MMO's for a myriad of reasons so my review of ToR is based solely off this premise. One other thing I'll add is that under this same premise, if you are not like me and actually have no complaints with themeparks then ToR is a wonderful game. Take that statement for all its worth.
I played 2 classes up through their starter planet, a Sith Inquisitor and a Smuggler. I also only played the latest Beta Weekend.
Story- At first I really loved it but after about 4 hours or thereabouts I found myself hitting spacebar to cut through all the dialogue. I am of the opinion that you can tell a story so much better through immersive setting and innovative gameplay instead of watching cutscenes.
Combat- Felt very decent but was static, nothing that isnt better or worse then what can be had playing WoW or Rift.
Classes- I liked the 2 classes I played, however I did think the cover for the Smuggler felt weird and took away from the actual flow of the gameplay. The Inqusitor felt pretty fun and he seemed to have alot of nifty moves but the 10m range on his force abilities felt extremely short. It does get negated if you pick up the Sorcerer AC but from understanding if you want to play the Assasin AC your stuck with the low range.
UI- minimalist but unable to move around, soemthing Rift got right but ToR fails in.
Exploration- I am of the opinion that exploration should not be an afterthought and just because ToR puts easter eggs, or Datacrons hidden off the beaten path does not a exploarative world make. To truely sense exploration there needs to be no "bread crumbing" or "on rails" hand holding from quest hub to quest hub as it truely takes away the immersiveness and exploration from the world. Again this is a Sandbox vs themepark argument but I feel it needs to be said.
Character creation- Actually this is probably worse then WoW, as there are so few races in the game and they are all humans. I feel this is the biggest gripe anyone who loves themepark crowd can agree with. In a world with as diverse fauna and worlds as Star Wars the ability to only play a human with different shades of skin color is an abysmal calamity. I mean Wookies, Jawas, Sandpeople, Gungen, Kitonak, Rodian, Trandoshan, and many others did not make the cut which IMO is lazy and sad.
Companions- I normally dislike Pet classes, and for the most part companions play just like that, IMO they should reduce the relaince on companions.
Questing- Hated it, its al lfed-ex quests masquaraded under the guise of a story, if you've played Rift or WoW then you get a sense of the monotony of themepark questing.
PvP- Loved Hutball but the one thing I know will crop up in this game is the class balance and the sense of whoever has more healers will more then likely win, plus I am certain there will be the same Pug vs Premade problem that everyone hates about instanced battlegrounds.
Crafting- more of the same but hidden by the companion system. Nothing Irks me more about themepark crafting then cut & paste craft 100's of worthless items to level your skill.
All in all I probably wont be picking it up, as I suspected this game is basically WoW in space, but thats not a bad thing for the themepark loving crowd because I at least feel SWToR has more production quality then Rift and plays jsut as flawlessly and good as WoW. However it just is not my cup of tea, and thanks to Skyrim and the soon to be released Reckoning (feb 2012) I shoulkd in theory have enough game to keep me occupied till GW2's release. Again these are my opinons and no one elses because the game does look to be great for the folks who still enjoy that gameplay style but for people like me who are looking to a more "old school" MMO feel then it is best to look elsewhere.
So, you "absolute loathe, despise and detest themepark MMO's" yet you're waiting hard for exactly such one? You're certain that there will be the same Pug vs Premade problem that everyone (!) hates about instanced battlegrounds yet you're waiting for a game with only instanced BG's?
Companions play like pets? I won't even bother comment on this one as there are tons of relevant info out there, including footage, proving you a liar on this.
And: "Crafting- more of the same but hidden by the companion system. Nothing Irks me more about themepark crafting then cut & paste craft 100's of worthless items to level your skill". Well, someone is lying here. Either you or the people who stated that cafting is actually fun and quite rewarding with crit and randomness involved which leads to the creation of purple items with different perks. Items of better quality than most drops. In fact, someone posted that one of his characters, the one involved in crafting, was geared solely with high quality crafted stuff while still leveling.
I haven't played beta or done much more then browse the forums and read the faq for TOR. I found the review very helpful. I am a big Bioware fan and I want to like this game, but I just can't go through another fed ex, kill 10 rats, linear hub to hub, tank and spank, hotbar 1-2-3 game. I lasted till level 14 in rift.
I will probably get TOR, but it looks like 1 month wonder type of game. Get to the level cap then quit shortly after because everything worthwhile has been done. This is especially true if there isn't some form of competitive, skill based pvp. There is a reason why league of legends is the biggest online game right now despite having extremely minimal content.
I am very much with the OP on GW2. I like the idea of just being able to walk around and participate in whatever is happenning around me with whoever is near. You dont just log in and go through nearly the exact same series of events 10000 other players just did. Single player games do that much better. It also has competitive skill based pvp, so there is endless content for people who want to improve and climb the ranks.
I am very much with the OP on GW2. I like the idea of just being able to walk around and participate in whatever is happenning around me with whoever is near. You dont just log in and go through nearly the exact same series of events 10000 other players just did. Single player games do that much better. It also has competitive skill based pvp, so there is endless content for people who want to improve and climb the ranks.
I get what you and the OP are saying about "being able to walk around and participate in whatever is happening around me with whoever is near". However, that will get old just as fast as a hub-to-hub game. I think SWToR made a good leap in questing when adding the countless hours of VO's into the game which do help with immersion while delivering a great story to you.
RIFT had many of those events which you could join in on and participate with whoever was around but it all became the same after a while and I suspect GW2 events will end up being the same for someone like me. Don't let anyone trick you with the word "Dynamic" because the definition they are refering too is about as basic and general as it can get. There are very few things that are truely dynamic in games and such titles as Ryzome and Eve Online are probably as dynamic as you'll get in todays market. Everything seems to be reduced to a few if/then statements, which is all "triggers" really are.
I agree with you to a large extent. I am not under any illusion that the GW2 content will never get repetitively boring. I played warhammer and know 'public quests' can be a disaster. At least I don't have to que up 50 quests 99% of which are solo so theres 50 people running around all doing the exact same thing, but 0 reason to work together because it actually hinders progress.
In GW2 group content is the deafult since everyone is automatically grouped up and helping eachother acomplish the local objectives. The only way to solo is to go somewhere that is completely unpopulated.
I certainly not giving GW2 a free pass, but there is quite a bit of footage out there which seems to demonstrate truth to their promises of removing much of the annoying themepark things that date back to EQ.
Ill start off and say I have grown to despise, loathe and detest themepark MMO's for a myriad of reasons so my review of ToR is based solely off this premise. One other thing I'll add is that under this same premise, if you are not like me and actually have no complaints with themeparks then ToR is a wonderful game. Take that statement for all its worth.
I played 2 classes up through their starter planet, a Sith Inquisitor and a Smuggler. I also only played the latest Beta Weekend.
Story- At first I really loved it but after about 4 hours or thereabouts I found myself hitting spacebar to cut through all the dialogue. I am of the opinion that you can tell a story so much better through immersive setting and innovative gameplay instead of watching cutscenes.
Combat- Felt very decent but was static, nothing that isnt better or worse then what can be had playing WoW or Rift.
Classes- I liked the 2 classes I played, however I did think the cover for the Smuggler felt weird and took away from the actual flow of the gameplay. The Inqusitor felt pretty fun and he seemed to have alot of nifty moves but the 10m range on his force abilities felt extremely short. It does get negated if you pick up the Sorcerer AC but from understanding if you want to play the Assasin AC your stuck with the low range.
UI- minimalist but unable to move around, soemthing Rift got right but ToR fails in.
Exploration- I am of the opinion that exploration should not be an afterthought and just because ToR puts easter eggs, or Datacrons hidden off the beaten path does not a exploarative world make. To truely sense exploration there needs to be no "bread crumbing" or "on rails" hand holding from quest hub to quest hub as it truely takes away the immersiveness and exploration from the world. Again this is a Sandbox vs themepark argument but I feel it needs to be said.
Character creation- Actually this is probably worse then WoW, as there are so few races in the game and they are all humans. I feel this is the biggest gripe anyone who loves themepark crowd can agree with. In a world with as diverse fauna and worlds as Star Wars the ability to only play a human with different shades of skin color is an abysmal calamity. I mean Wookies, Jawas, Sandpeople, Gungen, Kitonak, Rodian, Trandoshan, and many others did not make the cut which IMO is lazy and sad.
Companions- I normally dislike Pet classes, and for the most part companions play just like that, IMO they should reduce the relaince on companions.
Questing- Hated it, its al lfed-ex quests masquaraded under the guise of a story, if you've played Rift or WoW then you get a sense of the monotony of themepark questing.
PvP- Loved Hutball but the one thing I know will crop up in this game is the class balance and the sense of whoever has more healers will more then likely win, plus I am certain there will be the same Pug vs Premade problem that everyone hates about instanced battlegrounds.
Crafting- more of the same but hidden by the companion system. Nothing Irks me more about themepark crafting then cut & paste craft 100's of worthless items to level your skill.
All in all I probably wont be picking it up, as I suspected this game is basically WoW in space, but thats not a bad thing for the themepark loving crowd because I at least feel SWToR has more production quality then Rift and plays jsut as flawlessly and good as WoW. However it just is not my cup of tea, and thanks to Skyrim and the soon to be released Reckoning (feb 2012) I shoulkd in theory have enough game to keep me occupied till GW2's release. Again these are my opinons and no one elses because the game does look to be great for the folks who still enjoy that gameplay style but for people like me who are looking to a more "old school" MMO feel then it is best to look elsewhere.
For a self confessed hater, your opinion seemed fair enough.
As EQ was my first MMO, I have always preferred the themepark genre. My nearly 12 hrs spent playing tells me I will enjoy TOR a lot. Granted a person can burnout, like CoH after level 30, but hopefully it doesnt.
I am expecting mega hrs of gaming.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
I loved the story and found them exciting, tho I played Consular and Agent (and Trooper). BUT: after 3 or so hours I definitely could not take in more story. Not because it was bad, but because I was FULL of information. I can't say it otherwise. Maybe SWTOR is just not the game you play those 8-hour sessions as we played MMOs before. At least I felt after ~3 hours I was done with story and could not take in more.
I agree, exploring could be more, even starter worlds should be larger and more things to discover in terms of "living worlds" and not some weird "find the holocron". Agreed here.
I agree it sucks we have so many near-humans. Could be better and I hope they will add more races later on. But when I played the game it didn't feel so much as hindrance, just a missed opportunity. It was more weird that as a result in a Star Wars world, you see so many "humans" and so few aliens, players and NPCs. It just didn't much feel like Star Wars.
I can't say it felt like WOW in space at all. It sure has weaknesses, but overall not a bad game. Just a long list of missed opportunities.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
How exactly is GW2 NOT themepark? Just because it requires so called skill and teamwork?
Off topic but I thought I would give my thought on this question. I guess it depends on your understanding of what a themepark is exactly. I always thought it was a game where you had your hand held from beginning to end. A game where you were lead through content on a rail that took you from quest hub to quest hub. A game where you were guided and told where to go every step of the way and this was accomplished through zones having specific amounts of quests and monster levels that meant once you were through with the quests or too high level for the mobs to give exp, it was time to move onto the next zone and repeat till you are hampster wheeling your way through raids or pvp for that next piece of gear.
GW has none of this so I can see why he was saying it wasn't a themepark. No handholding. No quests telling you where to go. No outleveling content forcing you to go where the game says you need to go. No railed path to the end game. And no hampster wheeling when you get there.
While I am not sure what to label GW2 as, I can say I will be playing it on day one.
/On topic I am glad TOR changed somebodys mind in favor of. The MMORPG genre needs some good games out there since most of the stuff that has been released has been crap IMO.
Huh? it doesn't guide you as to where to go next? You are the first person I've heard claim this, so where do you get your information from? I have been following this game and looking forward to it because I really enjoyed GW and love a game that I can just purchase and not have to worry about a sub for. However, It has levels so how do you not outlevel content? Are the levels just for show? From what I have read and seen they are there for a reason and will have mobs higher level that you can't take on unless you mentor with someone to boost your level. If that is what you mean then I agree that it is possible to enter and take on mobs above your level but only if you have someone willing to boost you up. If not, from my understanding, you will have a leveled progression. If you can't skip levels through mentoring then you have to go somewhere level appropriate. Kind of like EQ1 (only when I played you couldn't mentor, don't know if you can these days) but I wouldn't consider EQ1 a sandbox by any means as it had level progression where you wen to one area to do things appropriate to your level.
Sorry for the late reply but I called it a night. I get my information from following the game. I tend to forget some because the information has been out so long. Yes you can be mentored up but you also get leveled down for the content that is lower than you. Anet said they put that system in to avoid griefing but it also acts beutifully to make the world open up even more so if you really liked a zone you played near the early levels you can go back and play in it without being a god among ants one shotting mobs. You scale down and gain exp.
I am aware that the NPC telling you of events can be seen the same as a quest giver, but really it's not. You don't have to participate in any event you don't want to. If you think it is the same in a standard themepark game then you are the one fooling yourself. Thempark quests are the main source of exp so you kinda have to do the quests that are available unless you want to travel the zone killing mobs solely for exp. In GW2 you get exp from participating in the events so you could actually stay in the zone as long as you want since you scale and can do any of the DE's you want. That is why I say it isn't hand holding. Yes the levels are pretty much just for show. People need to see and feel like they are progressing. The levels can give you an indication of what zone is too high for soloing mobs, but when it comes to earlier content, they aren't important.
I wasn't saying you can go anywhere from day one, I was saying that you aren't forced to always go where the game says you have to go because you out level content not to mention you dont have quest hubs to bounce to. You travel and you participate in what is in your area if you want to. I am pretty sure if you read then I will not be the first, or the last to claim this is the case. Keep in mind I was not arguing if GW2 was a thempark or not. I was only saying what I thought a themepark was and how GW2 is doing none of those things. It doesn't have some of the key elements you may find in a sandbox either so I said I wasn't sure where it fit.
Comments
I think part of the problem (and I was guilty of it in earlier posts) is that we tend to think about thinks in black and white terms. Sandbox vs. Themepark in this case. This is a continuum....sandbox---------------------------------------------themepark, and somehwere in between is where most games lie. Now there are several different views as to what sandbox and themepark are so any one game may fall on a different part of the continuum for different people. For example games like everquest or Asherons Call have some aspects of open world sandoxy ideas as well as themepark aspects, only different people will weigh the aspects differently. I see GW2 along these lines. I may view it more towards the themepark, but people with different ideas of what a sandbox is (different from mine at least) will see it differently on the continuum.
So, you "absolute loathe, despise and detest themepark MMO's" yet you're waiting hard for exactly such one? You're certain that there will be the same Pug vs Premade problem that everyone (!) hates about instanced battlegrounds yet you're waiting for a game with only instanced BG's?
Companions play like pets? I won't even bother comment on this one as there are tons of relevant info out there, including footage, proving you a liar on this.
And: "Crafting- more of the same but hidden by the companion system. Nothing Irks me more about themepark crafting then cut & paste craft 100's of worthless items to level your skill". Well, someone is lying here. Either you or the people who stated that cafting is actually fun and quite rewarding with crit and randomness involved which leads to the creation of purple items with different perks. Items of better quality than most drops. In fact, someone posted that one of his characters, the one involved in crafting, was geared solely with high quality crafted stuff while still leveling.
Have you actually tested the game?
I haven't played beta or done much more then browse the forums and read the faq for TOR. I found the review very helpful. I am a big Bioware fan and I want to like this game, but I just can't go through another fed ex, kill 10 rats, linear hub to hub, tank and spank, hotbar 1-2-3 game. I lasted till level 14 in rift.
I will probably get TOR, but it looks like 1 month wonder type of game. Get to the level cap then quit shortly after because everything worthwhile has been done. This is especially true if there isn't some form of competitive, skill based pvp. There is a reason why league of legends is the biggest online game right now despite having extremely minimal content.
I am very much with the OP on GW2. I like the idea of just being able to walk around and participate in whatever is happenning around me with whoever is near. You dont just log in and go through nearly the exact same series of events 10000 other players just did. Single player games do that much better. It also has competitive skill based pvp, so there is endless content for people who want to improve and climb the ranks.
I get what you and the OP are saying about "being able to walk around and participate in whatever is happening around me with whoever is near". However, that will get old just as fast as a hub-to-hub game. I think SWToR made a good leap in questing when adding the countless hours of VO's into the game which do help with immersion while delivering a great story to you.
RIFT had many of those events which you could join in on and participate with whoever was around but it all became the same after a while and I suspect GW2 events will end up being the same for someone like me. Don't let anyone trick you with the word "Dynamic" because the definition they are refering too is about as basic and general as it can get. There are very few things that are truely dynamic in games and such titles as Ryzome and Eve Online are probably as dynamic as you'll get in todays market. Everything seems to be reduced to a few if/then statements, which is all "triggers" really are.
I agree with you to a large extent. I am not under any illusion that the GW2 content will never get repetitively boring. I played warhammer and know 'public quests' can be a disaster. At least I don't have to que up 50 quests 99% of which are solo so theres 50 people running around all doing the exact same thing, but 0 reason to work together because it actually hinders progress.
In GW2 group content is the deafult since everyone is automatically grouped up and helping eachother acomplish the local objectives. The only way to solo is to go somewhere that is completely unpopulated.
I certainly not giving GW2 a free pass, but there is quite a bit of footage out there which seems to demonstrate truth to their promises of removing much of the annoying themepark things that date back to EQ.
For a self confessed hater, your opinion seemed fair enough.
As EQ was my first MMO, I have always preferred the themepark genre. My nearly 12 hrs spent playing tells me I will enjoy TOR a lot. Granted a person can burnout, like CoH after level 30, but hopefully it doesnt.
I am expecting mega hrs of gaming.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Hm. Where to begin.
I loved the story and found them exciting, tho I played Consular and Agent (and Trooper). BUT: after 3 or so hours I definitely could not take in more story. Not because it was bad, but because I was FULL of information. I can't say it otherwise. Maybe SWTOR is just not the game you play those 8-hour sessions as we played MMOs before. At least I felt after ~3 hours I was done with story and could not take in more.
I agree, exploring could be more, even starter worlds should be larger and more things to discover in terms of "living worlds" and not some weird "find the holocron". Agreed here.
I agree it sucks we have so many near-humans. Could be better and I hope they will add more races later on. But when I played the game it didn't feel so much as hindrance, just a missed opportunity. It was more weird that as a result in a Star Wars world, you see so many "humans" and so few aliens, players and NPCs. It just didn't much feel like Star Wars.
I can't say it felt like WOW in space at all. It sure has weaknesses, but overall not a bad game. Just a long list of missed opportunities.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Sorry for the late reply but I called it a night. I get my information from following the game. I tend to forget some because the information has been out so long. Yes you can be mentored up but you also get leveled down for the content that is lower than you. Anet said they put that system in to avoid griefing but it also acts beutifully to make the world open up even more so if you really liked a zone you played near the early levels you can go back and play in it without being a god among ants one shotting mobs. You scale down and gain exp.
I am aware that the NPC telling you of events can be seen the same as a quest giver, but really it's not. You don't have to participate in any event you don't want to. If you think it is the same in a standard themepark game then you are the one fooling yourself. Thempark quests are the main source of exp so you kinda have to do the quests that are available unless you want to travel the zone killing mobs solely for exp. In GW2 you get exp from participating in the events so you could actually stay in the zone as long as you want since you scale and can do any of the DE's you want. That is why I say it isn't hand holding. Yes the levels are pretty much just for show. People need to see and feel like they are progressing. The levels can give you an indication of what zone is too high for soloing mobs, but when it comes to earlier content, they aren't important.
I wasn't saying you can go anywhere from day one, I was saying that you aren't forced to always go where the game says you have to go because you out level content not to mention you dont have quest hubs to bounce to. You travel and you participate in what is in your area if you want to. I am pretty sure if you read then I will not be the first, or the last to claim this is the case. Keep in mind I was not arguing if GW2 was a thempark or not. I was only saying what I thought a themepark was and how GW2 is doing none of those things. It doesn't have some of the key elements you may find in a sandbox either so I said I wasn't sure where it fit.
RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.