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Breaking the "WoW Clone" Mold

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  • ThaneUlfgarThaneUlfgar Member Posts: 283

    EQ clone, WoW clone, I just think it's funny that people have no problem calling games WoW clones, but the minute someone calls WOW an EQ clone, people get all up in arms, when the logic is just as bad across the board.

  • SupersoupsSupersoups Member Posts: 1,004

    Originally posted by ThaneUlfgar

    EQ clone, WoW clone, I just think it's funny that people have no problem calling games WoW clones, but the minute someone calls WOW an EQ clone, people get all up in arms, when the logic is just as bad across the board.

    Bingo..hilarious indeed when pot meets kettle.

    image

  • DewmDewm Member UncommonPosts: 1,337

    Originally posted by Loke666

    It is a dumb buzzword, particularly since Wow copied as much of EQ as any clone of Wow and EQ copied it from M59.

    But I think a game needs to feel like you havn't played it for years after 3 days of playing to not be considered a Wow clone today. You know the game if you played any, you start out and recognize 99% of the game from the start. Same crafting, same questing and so on.

    Take Rift, well made game but besides how you customize your character with several sub classes and some random spawns it is exactly the same game we played as Wow, EQ2, LOTRO and so on. A lot of MMO players finally tired of playing the same but reskinned game over and over.

    I don't normally agree with you, but on this one its 100%

     

    I pick up WoW, RIFT, AION, LoTR it all feels like i've done it before, I could almost tell you 10 minutes into the game, what quest you will find, where the major city hubs are.. etc...

     

    Thats what puts me off from GW2 and SWTOR, even though i've never played it, I watch 15 minutes of vid and i'm bored, I've been there done that.

    Sure they throw around words like "dynamic events" and "best costumization ever".....but all I hear is "we are like wow...but want you to think otherwise"

     

     

    (And just for the record I started playing MMO's with FFXI's launch, and compaired to that everything i've touched since is easy mode)

    Please check out my channel. I do gaming reviews, gaming related reviews & lets plays. Thanks!
    https://www.youtube.com/user/BettyofDewm/videos

  • cali59cali59 Member Posts: 1,634

    Originally posted by Dewm

    Originally posted by Loke666

    It is a dumb buzzword, particularly since Wow copied as much of EQ as any clone of Wow and EQ copied it from M59.

    But I think a game needs to feel like you havn't played it for years after 3 days of playing to not be considered a Wow clone today. You know the game if you played any, you start out and recognize 99% of the game from the start. Same crafting, same questing and so on.

    Take Rift, well made game but besides how you customize your character with several sub classes and some random spawns it is exactly the same game we played as Wow, EQ2, LOTRO and so on. A lot of MMO players finally tired of playing the same but reskinned game over and over.

    I don't normally agree with you, but on this one its 100%

     

    I pick up WoW, RIFT, AION, LoTR it all feels like i've done it before, I could almost tell you 10 minutes into the game, what quest you will find, where the major city hubs are.. etc...

     

    Thats what puts me off from GW2 and SWTOR, even though i've never played it, I watch 15 minutes of vid and i'm bored, I've been there done that.

    Sure they throw around words like "dynamic events" and "best costumization ever".....but all I hear is "we are like wow...but want you to think otherwise"

     

     

    (And just for the record I started playing MMO's with FFXI's launch, and compaired to that everything i've touched since is easy mode)

     In regards to GW2, I can only try to convince you that you have not been there and done that. 

    I can definitely understand why you might feel that way when watching videos because as a general rule people don't do dynamic events in videos.  They're too busy screwing around, trying out the combat killing random mobs.  Maybe you'll see a person do one event in a video and even then, it's not how they're organized in youtube so if you do a search for GW2 dynamic events you don't usually find much.  Here's actually a good video put together by MMORPG.com member Sharpeh.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9A6CEKDYr8  It's got some nice gameplay footage in the middle after the initial panel discussion clip.

    I truly believe dynamic events are a revolutionary concept that is really almost 100% superior than the quest model for leveling.  I can't even describe all their features in detail without devoting an entire page to them.  They build community instead of being isolating.  They're designed to try to be griefless.  They scale with the number of people there.  They can do things and have success/failure conditions that you can't really do with quests.  They actually happen and impact the world and chain on success or failure.  You don't need to pick them up or turn them in, you can just visually see them and jump in to help.  They're repeatable if you like them.  There's no set path through the zone.  The game automatically mentors you down so you can do any in the world when at high level and play with any friend regardless of their level.  And it's not like there's prequests that you and your friend need to sync up to, you can just meet up and immediately go do something.

    I'm glossing over bullet points here, but I'm trying to convey that even if they're only half as good as advertised, even if they don't end up bringing people together like they're designed, they'd still be an improvement over the quest model.

    Add to that all the cool things that GW2 is doing with combat (weapons, dodging, casting on the move, cross profession combos, no holy trinity, underwater, anyone rez anyone, no ally targeting), PVP, personal story/home instance, minigames, and I truly believe it's going to be an amazing MMO.

    "Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true – you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007

  • EcocesEcoces Member UncommonPosts: 879

    Originally posted by ThaneUlfgar

    EQ clone, WoW clone, I just think it's funny that people have no problem calling games WoW clones, but the minute someone calls WOW an EQ clone, people get all up in arms, when the logic is just as bad across the board.

    did you play EQ? because if you did even if you weren't a fan of it you would know WoW is NOTHING like EQ. not up in arms just pointing out stupidity.

  • Ragnar_DRagnar_D Member Posts: 8

    By WoW clone, you mean EQ clone right? Kids.

  • PukeBucketPukeBucket Member Posts: 867

    Originally posted by Ecoces

    Originally posted by ThaneUlfgar

    EQ clone, WoW clone, I just think it's funny that people have no problem calling games WoW clones, but the minute someone calls WOW an EQ clone, people get all up in arms, when the logic is just as bad across the board.

    did you play EQ? because if you did even if you weren't a fan of it you would know WoW is NOTHING like EQ. not up in arms just pointing out stupidity.

    WoW and EQ2 are not quite EQ clones.

    They were responses to critiques of EQ1, AC1 &2, and even DAoC.

    If anything they have way more in common with Anarchy Online. AO is the birthplace of most of the features we see in MMOs now. Auction Houses, use of instances, a lot of crafting elements, and some progression. 

    So.. Not EQ clones, but they are responses to EQ.

    I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.

  • dave6660dave6660 Member UncommonPosts: 2,699

    I don't think players know what they want.  Every game that I tried that attempted to be different from the standard WoW model people bitched and complained that it wasn't like WoW.

    The players are getting exactly what they want... easy mode, brain dead, instant gratification, anti social games.  That's what sells.

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • mhay71mhay71 Member UncommonPosts: 34

    Amazing how quickly this turned into a "who is really a clone of who." So let me ask the question a different way....

    Let's say I have a $100m dollars laying around and I want to create an mmorpg. What game features could I use that would not label my game as a "wow clone?"

     

    Ing the Conqueror

  • EcocesEcoces Member UncommonPosts: 879

    Originally posted by mhay71

    Amazing how quickly this turned into a "who is really a clone of who." So let me ask the question a different way....

    Let's say I have a $100m dollars laying around and I want to create an mmorpg. What game features could I use that would not label my game as a "wow clone?"

     

    no golden ! or any other icon to label an NPC as a quest giver.

    action oriented combat

    player housing/cities

    3 factions

    PVP areas with territory conquests and reasons to fight over them besides "omg phat lootz vendors"

    concentrate on open dungeon instead of instance zones (in fact i would say leave the instances out completely)

    working economy with great and IMPORTANT crafting system.

    give death meaning again

    make quests more hidden make players have to listen to what the NPC says and answer them. instead of quest hub jumping.

     

    I would say doing those would get your MMO away from being a WoW clone.

     

  • Kaelano1Kaelano1 Member Posts: 375

    Originally posted by Ecoces

    Originally posted by ThaneUlfgar

    EQ clone, WoW clone, I just think it's funny that people have no problem calling games WoW clones, but the minute someone calls WOW an EQ clone, people get all up in arms, when the logic is just as bad across the board.

    did you play EQ? because if you did even if you weren't a fan of it you would know WoW is NOTHING like EQ. not up in arms just pointing out stupidity.

    I kinda lol'd at this. Then I thought again... EQ was MUCH better than WoW (in its day), and WoW was never good...

     

    So yeh. Barring both being fantasy-themed dungeons and dragons-esque progression games with crappy cartoony graphics (good in EQ's day, not good in 04) with lame albeit recognizable music scores, weak, simplified crafting, and entirely too many fanbois, they're TOTALLY different! WoW appeals to simple people, EQ appealed to "sharks".

     

    Not sure how I ever missed that...

     

    I changed my mind again. WoW is an EQ clone. Not sure why I digressed. It's fix'd.

  • GreenzorGreenzor Member Posts: 165

    Originally posted by mhay71

    Amazing how quickly this turned into a "who is really a clone of who." So let me ask the question a different way....

    Let's say I have a $100m dollars laying around and I want to create an mmorpg. What game features could I use that would not label my game as a "wow clone?"

     

    You've hit the nail there. If you had $100m dollars you'd most likely invest in something with guarantees or put another way,  a working formula aka wow-clone. Or you would invest in talented peeps to do something rather new ;)


     


     

  • Kaelano1Kaelano1 Member Posts: 375

    Originally posted by dave6660

    I don't think players know what they want.  Every game that I tried that attempted to be different from the standard WoW model people bitched and complained that it wasn't like WoW.

    The players are getting exactly what they want... easy mode, brain dead, instant gratification, anti social games.  That's what sells.

    Players know what they want in Skyrim... it's just not an MMO. The game publishers like Cryptic and SOE are doing everything they can to milk the populace while providing as little as possible in return. Hell, even with my dissatisfaction with WoW, I still give major props to Blizzard and am eagerly awaiting the release of "Titan".

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,432


    Originally posted by mhay71
    Amazing how quickly this turned into a "who is really a clone of who." So let me ask the question a different way....
    Let's say I have a $100m dollars laying around and I want to create an mmorpg. What game features could I use that would not label my game as a "wow clone?"
     

    I think it goes something like this:
    Themepark = WoW
    Sandbox = UO
    Themepark + Sandbox = Innovative

    Not sure why this is, but it seems to be at the root of the whole discussion. Personally, *I* don't see it this way, but...

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • leojreimrocleojreimroc Member UncommonPosts: 371

    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    I think designers and coders who have never played or seen WoW would probably be better than someone who has. Companies can't seem to avoid copying the gameplay and interface of WoW, some down to the letter.

    Then again, maybe they want to copy WoW, to enjoy the fruits of a succesfull MMO, instead of wanting to differentiate.

    If I remember right, the designers of FFXIV had played little or no other MMORPGs, including WoW.  They just did their own thing.  I'm not saying that a failure like that would happen in every case.  I am saying though that borowing from other games is not always the worst case scenario.

  • Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Member RarePosts: 9,686

    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     




    Originally posted by mhay71

    Amazing how quickly this turned into a "who is really a clone of who." So let me ask the question a different way....

    Let's say I have a $100m dollars laying around and I want to create an mmorpg. What game features could I use that would not label my game as a "wow clone?"

     






    I think it goes something like this:

    Themepark = WoW

    Sandbox = UO

    Themepark + Sandbox = Innovative

     

    Not sure why this is, but it seems to be at the root of the whole discussion. Personally, *I* don't see it this way, but...

    And that innovation can be found in GW2.....

     

    GW2 will play so much different from standard tab and click MMO's like WOW...

    Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  • tom_goretom_gore Member UncommonPosts: 2,001

    Originally posted by Ecoces

    Originally posted by mhay71

    Amazing how quickly this turned into a "who is really a clone of who." So let me ask the question a different way....

    Let's say I have a $100m dollars laying around and I want to create an mmorpg. What game features could I use that would not label my game as a "wow clone?"

     

    no golden ! or any other icon to label an NPC as a quest giver.

    action oriented combat

    player housing/cities

    3 factions

    PVP areas with territory conquests and reasons to fight over them besides "omg phat lootz vendors"

    concentrate on open dungeon instead of instance zones (in fact i would say leave the instances out completely)

    working economy with great and IMPORTANT crafting system.

    give death meaning again

    make quests more hidden make players have to listen to what the NPC says and answer them. instead of quest hub jumping.

     

    I would say doing those would get your MMO away from being a WoW clone.

     

    Someone give this guy 100M dollars NAO!

     

    I would probably play that game.

    And don't come telling me this kind of games already exist. I know they do, but they are all crap. Only game that has most of the above right is EVE but I don't like spaceship games.

     

  • MMO.MaverickMMO.Maverick Member CommonPosts: 7,619

    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     




    Originally posted by mhay71

    Amazing how quickly this turned into a "who is really a clone of who." So let me ask the question a different way....

    Let's say I have a $100m dollars laying around and I want to create an mmorpg. What game features could I use that would not label my game as a "wow clone?"

     







    I think it goes something like this:

    Themepark = WoW

    Sandbox = UO

    Themepark + Sandbox = Innovative

     

    Not sure why this is, but it seems to be at the root of the whole discussion. Personally, *I* don't see it this way, but...

    And that innovation can be found in GW2.....

     

    GW2 will play so much different from standard tab and click MMO's like WOW...

    GW2 is innovative, no doubt about it, but it isn't a sandbox at all, not even close to a sandbox/themepark hybrid.

     

    If I had to describe GW2, then I think the best description of it would be themepark 2.0

    The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's

    The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
    Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."

  • fenistilfenistil Member Posts: 3,005

    Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus


    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     




    Originally posted by mhay71

    Amazing how quickly this turned into a "who is really a clone of who." So let me ask the question a different way....

    Let's say I have a $100m dollars laying around and I want to create an mmorpg. What game features could I use that would not label my game as a "wow clone?"

     







    I think it goes something like this:

    Themepark = WoW

    Sandbox = UO

    Themepark + Sandbox = Innovative

     

    Not sure why this is, but it seems to be at the root of the whole discussion. Personally, *I* don't see it this way, but...

    And that innovation can be found in GW2.....

     

    GW2 will play so much different from standard tab and click MMO's like WOW...

    GW2 is innovative, no doubt about it, but it isn't a sandbox at all, not even close to a sandbox/themepark hybrid.

     

    If I had to describe GW2, then I think the best description of it would be themepark 2.0

    Agreed.

    While GW2 look promising in few areas and might be really decent game, I do NOT see anything remotely sandbox there, yeah not even close to sandbox / themepark.

     

    Agree, it with MMO.Maverick - it is more like Themepark on steroids, Themepark 2.0, etc

  • ClassicstarClassicstar Member UncommonPosts: 2,697

    Originally posted by mhay71

    It seems that every game on these forum(s) is called a "wow clone." Question.....

     

    What would it take for an mmorpg to NOT be considered a "wow clone." Please be specific.

    If you realy follow this forum closely you would know your statement is false. Only few here and they are mainly themepark players call every game a WoW clone becouse they started with WoW and think that WoW was the beginning lol.

    Many here dont call Darkfall EVE AC or MO Saga of Ryzom-Dark age of camelot and many others before WoW a clone.

    Plus WoW is btw the ULTIMATE CLONE made up from Everquest-Asherons call 2 and some other games.

    So its imposible to say all other mmo's are clones of WoW becouse WoW was launched 2004/2005 and thats the NEW MMO ERA hehe.

    Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!

    MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
    CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
    GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
    MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
    PSU:Corsair AX1200i
    OS:Windows 10 64bit

  • PukeBucketPukeBucket Member Posts: 867

    Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus


    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     




    Originally posted by mhay71

    Amazing how quickly this turned into a "who is really a clone of who." So let me ask the question a different way....

    Let's say I have a $100m dollars laying around and I want to create an mmorpg. What game features could I use that would not label my game as a "wow clone?"

     







    I think it goes something like this:

    Themepark = WoW

    Sandbox = UO

    Themepark + Sandbox = Innovative

     

    Not sure why this is, but it seems to be at the root of the whole discussion. Personally, *I* don't see it this way, but...

    And that innovation can be found in GW2.....

     

    GW2 will play so much different from standard tab and click MMO's like WOW...

    GW2 is innovative, no doubt about it, but it isn't a sandbox at all, not even close to a sandbox/themepark hybrid.

     

    If I had to describe GW2, then I think the best description of it would be themepark 2.0

    I agree with Mav on this one. I think it's more of a remix of existing tropes with GW2 and that should be fun. I mean at least for a little while. Not paying a monthly fee helps to find that out. Plus I think the game will be launching with a lot of room to grow.

    Really not too many sandbox hybrids coming along. I mean that's what I was hoping for with World of Darkness the MMO. But that's just me hoping.

    I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.

  • BrianshoBriansho Member UncommonPosts: 3,586
    I don't think we will have to worry about pandas being added to Runes of Magic or Mortal Online anytime soon!!

    Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!

  • RegnevanzRegnevanz Member Posts: 146

    Originally posted by Magnum2103

    Can someone explain to me what EQ has in common with WoW?

    EQ had a completely different interface and UI setup.  It was extremely uninitutive.

    EQ had no reliance on quests and quest hubs for leveling.  Quests gave almost no experience, were difficult, and typically weren't done till later levels.

    EQ was open world while WoW was heavily instanced.

    EQ one raid sizes were significantly larger than WoW's raid sizes.

    EQ had significantly more dungeons that were more complex.

    In EQ you camped areas of a dungeon for spawns, while in WoW you clear dungeons and wait for a reset.

    EQ had you choose factions where killing a member of one faction would cause you to lose faction with another.  In WoW you can generally raise all factions.

    EQ had a harsh death penalty of EXP loss and corpse recovery without gear.  WoW has a fairly lenient death penalty.

    EQ had almost no PvP outside of PvP servers with varying rulesets and FFA looting, the complete opposite of WoW's PvP.

    EQ had massive attunement time sinks for end game raiding.

    EQ had gear from previous expansions that was still considered useful.  WoW's end game gear is outdated by greens in later expansions.

    EQ had month to year long quests for epic weapons.  WoW's legendary weapons drop off bosses.

    EQ's combat was significantly slower than WoW's.  Also, you were limited to the number of spells you could have on your hotbar.  WoW has no such limit.

    EQ had no maps or other exploration aids beyond /loc.

    In EQ anyone could loot a corpse and the party that did the most damage get EXP credit.  In WoW, you "tag" MOBs for EXP and loot credit.

    How is this a clone again?

    So by your own writings its a clone - WoW is the easier version of EQ - it's EQ without the insane difficulty.. hence the term WoW kiddies - as all the kids left eq to play it - the whingers on the eq forums about "its to hard" disappeared. All you have done is laundry list everything that made eq great and how bliz made it too easy.

    Imagine the satisfaction of earning a weapon across a year long quest.. that is truely epic my friend and dedication to the community. The only real difference between WOW and EQ one has a community of Stick Withs & Helpers - the other Must Have Nowzors.. act in any ol selfish way to havzors nowzors.

  • moosecatlolmoosecatlol Member RarePosts: 1,531

    A start would be not ripping the UI layout from WoW.

  • TJixleeTJixlee Member Posts: 159

    it would mostly help if ppl understood that WoW DID NOT COME FIRST. there was some good and much better games before it. WoW is just a victim of right place right time.

    image

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