Pathfinder is great as it is taking D&D in the right direction where WotC completely messed it up.
4th edition completely killed D&D.
Would you belive that i heard the exact some tune when the 3.0 rule set came out.. It killed DnD and destroyed all that was good and graceful with the game and the world... And then again when the 3.5 came out (altho many did say that it was better then the 3.0)
No it did not kill DnD it just brought in a different generation and a different type of player.
I have had a think about this since I read it and I actually have lost enthusiasm for it a bit... and I am a big fan of Paizo, Pathfinder, and Golarian.
PvP...
The last thing this game need to be is another Darkfall.
It better have some kind of heavy and pretty permament (requiring huge effort or cost to remove) penalties for PKs that kill non evil player characters unprovoked, because while it should be allowable it should never be encouraged in this IP.
The last thing this game needs is to be pushed as is a typical open world gank fest... the type of community that attracts will kill it.
A huge part of me already wishes they had gone down the NWN community creation/ co-op model with this game rather then the MMORPG one.
Originally posted by Lobotomist Originally posted by Loke666
Originally posted by spinner_vis
reading from FAQ, it won't be direct translation of D20 rules. expect "spirit and flavor of the Pathfinder". it won't use OGL. it won't use classes nor levels. uses "innovative archetype" system. wide variety of skills to develop over time, which unlocks class-like abilities.
how will it develop, remains to be seen.
*Sigh* I just lost a bit of the hype... I don't mind MMOs with no levels or classes but they could focus on translating a P&P game that doesn't have them either then, like Runequest or ARS Magica.
Yep, same here Yes. Looks like name only... well, maybe world, too
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I am not sure that they cannot find investors or that it is stupid to do so...It is a risk, just as anything is...Their are plenty of companies that people wish they would of got into at the ground...They have some known people, they are adapting a known entity...etc...
I think its a little early to judge anything, things change in alpha hugely, beta hugely...let alone concept stage...
It is not like being interested is a huge emotional investment that some people on here seem that if they decide to be interested, it will drain their life force....I signed up for info on the forum...I will probably forget this exists...I will get an email update, I will remember it exists...I will then check out the new info....rinse and repeat...I will not pay much attention positive or negatively until it is closer...I love the potential if done right....But it is too early to say it is/isn't.
Would you belive that i heard the exact some tune when the 3.0 rule set came out.. It killed DnD and destroyed all that was good and graceful with the game and the world... And then again when the 3.5 came out (altho many did say that it was better then the 3.0)
No it did not kill DnD it just brought in a different generation and a different type of player.
It might not have killed D&D but it surely winged it.
Did you know that Pathfinder sells more than D&D? A lot more.
I been playing D&D since the 80s, I do remember complains about 3rd edition and many people staying in AD&D for a while, but 1 year after release everyone I know who plays (maybe 50 people) had moved to 3rd. I also go to P&P RPG cons every year and speak to a lot of people.
Now not a single person I know have moved to 4th, in fact I discovered Pathfinder when I was considering moving but just couldn't bring myself to it.
4th edition did bring in some new players, that much is true but they are few and far between.
They did kill Forgotten realms with 4th edition though, 2 badly written sourcebooks is all that is out after over 3 years and that is pathetic. The new FR core book released in August 2008. I am in fact running a campaign in it right now but I wish I stayed in 3rd. I am running it with Pathfinder though.
The thing is BTW that while Pathfinder is based on D&D 3rd edition it is a lot better, it gives a lot more customization options and characters of the same class can be very different, not just have a few different feats and spells.
4th was a mistake, if nothing else sales and how fast they publish books should show that. Pathfinder are releasing a few good books every month and it's campaign world is becomming very popular fast.
Come on, it's asking for investors. I predict that it will never be released or remain in beta forever.
The MMO development company just formed...why would they not be looking for investors? That's uh - how it's done.
That's how it's done... by devs with no money. And you can't make a game with no money, and no reasonable investor would shell out $100,000 to a company with nothing to show. There are hundreds of games like this out there: devs with big dreams and no money asking for inestors to give them thousands of dollars on their word alone. No games ever result from these projects; at best, an endless beta results with about a hundrd people (mostly the devs and their friends) playing the game. Look at the good MMOs out there. Were any of them made this way?
Obviously, this game may have a bit more of an edge, being headed by someone with past experience in MMOs. But otherwise, this game and company nothing going for it than the hundreds of other never finished. Heck, these devs haven't even started: "...when Goblinworks commences operations in 2012."
Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm sure not getting my hopes up until this looks more like a game by a real company than a glorified project by some has-beens and hobbyists.
The folks at Paizo are not exactly a random group picked up off the street with no clue about how things are done though.
Generally speaking, devs with little to no money is how all of the companies started out... pick a big company today, go back and look at how they started...tada.
With your attitude, there would be no big game companies today - because they would have never started.
But how many big name companies started with an MMO? Trion did, but it's the exception to the rule. All I'm saying is that with all the failed MMOs from small companies with no money, this one hasn't won my confidence and I doubt it will win any investors' wallets either. I want this game to succeed, but I doubt it will.
This is one thing I hate about WoW and Blizzard and any comapny that does this. if we pay a premium price to subscribe, we should have access to everything the game has to offer - even if we have to quest for it - our premium accounts should allow us access to everything.
We are in 100% agreement there.
If they want to push out useless stuff like that, at least put it together and sell it as some kind of expansion.
If the monthly fees aren't enough, just raise the price to 20 bucks and let everything be included instead.
But how many big name companies started with an MMO? Trion did, but it's the exception to the rule. All I'm saying is that with all the failed MMOs from small companies with no money, this one hasn't won my confidence and I doubt it will win any investors' wallets either. I want this game to succeed, but I doubt it will.
Ah, but here they didn't start with a MMO, they started with a very popular pen and paper game.
So they have some experience at creating games and worlds, and just as important, they have other sources of income than just the game.
But how many big name companies started with an MMO? Trion did, but it's the exception to the rule. All I'm saying is that with all the failed MMOs from small companies with no money, this one hasn't won my confidence and I doubt it will win any investors' wallets either. I want this game to succeed, but I doubt it will.
Ah, but here they didn't start with a MMO, they started with a very popular pen and paper game.
So they have some experience at creating games and worlds, and just as important, they have other sources of income than just the game.
My lack of confidence is in GoblinWorks, which had nothing to do with the creation of the Pathfinder universe. According to their website, GoblinWorks practically doesn't even exist yet. They begin operation next year.
I hope it'll be a themepark/sandboxy hybrid that so many have been waiting for.
Can't help but thing the game will give people the chance to write adventures / run them in a 'DM' mode possibly or have some sort of toolset for players to use like some other mmo's have incorporated.
I've always believed if you give players a WELL designed, powerful tool allowing them to craft adventures then submit it for approval, your game could potentially have so much more content than natural in house development could dish out.
Quality control would be your only worry in which case you'd need a dedicated group of in house designers to go over submitted content and make sure it's up to standards - if not, decline it with feedback and players could try their hand at polishing up the adventures they want to throw into the world.
Why do I write, create, fantasize, dream and daydream about other worlds? Because I hate what humanity does with this one.
But how many big name companies started with an MMO? Trion did, but it's the exception to the rule. All I'm saying is that with all the failed MMOs from small companies with no money, this one hasn't won my confidence and I doubt it will win any investors' wallets either. I want this game to succeed, but I doubt it will.
Ah, but here they didn't start with a MMO, they started with a very popular pen and paper game.
So they have some experience at creating games and worlds, and just as important, they have other sources of income than just the game.
A thing that is sometimes forgotten in the subscription model is the access fee.
We can go back and look at the PnP RPG idea - we bought books, we bought more books, etc. We cannot simply apply that to a MMORPG. With the PnP RPG, we played somewhere - whether it was at home, a friend's home, a community center, a gaming store, etc. Maybe we paid the rent. Maybe our parents paid the rent. At the gaming store, maybe they let you reserve the space for free - because you were buying items from the store - or maybe they charged you for the space. In some fashion, there was an access fee.
It should be possible, to see a company offering B2P + DLC + an access fee. Should that access fee be the same as a regular subscription? I would argue no. I could see it being a tiered access fee. After all, if you've got more content you're playing than somebody else - well, you're using more resources. Does not matter if you've paid for a license to access that content - you're still going to pay to access it.
You buy a car. You still have to buy gas for it.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Yeah, I don't know what is the big deal with the payment method.
I mean if this is actually any good...who cares how or how much you have to pay?
Arguing the various payment methods for games is a very hot topic on the forums here. People that might hate each other while discussing some of the other hot issues, will often come together if they share a common belief in regard to a certain payment method - forgetting that their hands might have been around each other's throats moments before. They tend not to find that common ground even if it exists while discussing other items.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Would you belive that i heard the exact some tune when the 3.0 rule set came out.. It killed DnD and destroyed all that was good and graceful with the game and the world... And then again when the 3.5 came out (altho many did say that it was better then the 3.0)
No it did not kill DnD it just brought in a different generation and a different type of player.
It might not have killed D&D but it surely winged it.
Did you know that Pathfinder sells more than D&D? A lot more.
I been playing D&D since the 80s, I do remember complains about 3rd edition and many people staying in AD&D for a while, but 1 year after release everyone I know who plays (maybe 50 people) had moved to 3rd. I also go to P&P RPG cons every year and speak to a lot of people.
Now not a single person I know have moved to 4th, in fact I discovered Pathfinder when I was considering moving but just couldn't bring myself to it.
4th edition did bring in some new players, that much is true but they are few and far between.
They did kill Forgotten realms with 4th edition though, 2 badly written sourcebooks is all that is out after over 3 years and that is pathetic. The new FR core book released in August 2008. I am in fact running a campaign in it right now but I wish I stayed in 3rd. I am running it with Pathfinder though.
The thing is BTW that while Pathfinder is based on D&D 3rd edition it is a lot better, it gives a lot more customization options and characters of the same class can be very different, not just have a few different feats and spells.
4th was a mistake, if nothing else sales and how fast they publish books should show that. Pathfinder are releasing a few good books every month and it's campaign world is becomming very popular fast.
I am in no way saying that Pathfinder is bad, after all sooner or later something good have to come out of the OGL system. I am just saying that it is a bit daft to say 4.0 killed DnD. There is a good chance they will never reach the success of 3:d ed but then again it was hated like the plague when it came out by the "old" players too.
Would you belive that i heard the exact some tune when the 3.0 rule set came out.. It killed DnD and destroyed all that was good and graceful with the game and the world... And then again when the 3.5 came out (altho many did say that it was better then the 3.0)
No it did not kill DnD it just brought in a different generation and a different type of player.
It might not have killed D&D but it surely winged it.
Did you know that Pathfinder sells more than D&D? A lot more. Pazio had sold books across two quarters more than WOTC did on a tabletop schedule when they each only put out two books. These were pathfinder's FIRST SUPPLIMENTS NOT related to a setting. Do you remember how good Sword & Fist and Tome & Blood did when they first came out? this was something along the 40th book out for WOTC. Do you remember frostburn, sandstorm, dungeonscape, the tome of battle, etc? they sold awful yet probably were the best books WOTC ever actually put out, inadventerntly.
I been playing D&D since the 80s, I do remember complains about 3rd edition and many people staying in AD&D for a while, but 1 year after release everyone I know who plays (maybe 50 people) had moved to 3rd. I also go to P&P RPG cons every year and speak to a lot of people.
Now not a single person I know have moved to 4th, in fact I discovered Pathfinder when I was considering moving but just couldn't bring myself to it.
4th edition did bring in some new players, that much is true but they are few and far between.
They did kill Forgotten realms with 4th edition though, 2 badly written sourcebooks is all that is out after over 3 years and that is pathetic. The new FR core book released in August 2008. I am in fact running a campaign in it right now but I wish I stayed in 3rd. I am running it with Pathfinder though.
The thing is BTW that while Pathfinder is based on D&D 3rd edition it is a lot better, it gives a lot more customization options and characters of the same class can be very different, not just have a few different feats and spells.
4th was a mistake, if nothing else sales and how fast they publish books should show that. Did you Forget about D&DI? just from people who are simultaneously forums subscribers AND D&DI subscribers, there are more than 550,000 people who actually have a subscription, paying $10. And given at how poorly forums pariticIpation reflects overall numbers from a hobby, There's anywhere from 2x to 10x over that.i'm pretty sure they make more off that silly program than every other tabletop company combined makes off its physical copy sales these days.
I don't like to snipe, but coming from someone who worked at a game shop that thrived and continues to thrive even with 4th edition D&D sales - You don't give it a fair shake, and I gotta cast dispel misconceptions first.
A l close majority moved onto 4th edition, but thats not to say between all editions the numbers are not high. Pazio barely reaches a million players. There's probably about 10 million people solely playing D&D name branded materials, including about 3-4 million of them playing 4th thanks to Game day being a wonderful way WOTC has estimated numbers for almost 8 years now. There's probably still about a million playing some version of 3.0, about 2 playing 3.5, about 100k for 2nd, and it descreases the earlier you go. (100k for 2e was from 2008 so it's probably shrunk more)
Now, onto the matter of this game being a success? Not a chance. D&D unfortunately, is all about the adventures that the DM weaves SPECIFICALLY for their players. Unless they come out with some sort of mission architech like City of heroes has right from the get-go, it's going to be very lacking because THAT's Dungeons and Dragons/pathfinder. An MMO world vaguely based on evolutions of D&D? We have those, in SPADES. Neverwinter nights persistent worlds, D&DO (which for all its criticism actually captures the better parts of delving quite well) Dozens of MUDs still in existence. Everquest, ultima online, Warhammer, World of Warcraft all capture so many D&D-like feautures, so much so other tabletop gamers claim companies stole some of them back!
But this is not the issue at all, Unfortunately. It's because - Pazio doesn't have close to the amount of money Wizards of the coast, let alone Hasbro has. Remember that WOTC did not really finance D&DO, a successful MMO company did. These guys have absolutely no clue what they are getting into, and every word from Ryan Dancey shows he has not played an MMO in quite some time that modern gamers actually get, and in good numbers, let alone even looked over the design process for even a computer game, let alone an MMO that didn't have extremely strange ways to its success. EVE online is an example of a freak success, and if he thinks he could get the money from investors let alone bankroll a successful D&D-offshoot gamesystem into a profitable one, Well then It looks more like Pazio's gonna be shutting its doors before 2020 if begs enough pity money for his poject.
The woman who has run Pazio so successfully needs to get her head back on straight.
i wouldn't pay it much mind for the next few years. the gaming world has a long history of MMOs that go belly up even as early as their pre-production phase. lots of factors to consider so nobody get your hopes up.
Comments
Would you belive that i heard the exact some tune when the 3.0 rule set came out.. It killed DnD and destroyed all that was good and graceful with the game and the world... And then again when the 3.5 came out (altho many did say that it was better then the 3.0)
No it did not kill DnD it just brought in a different generation and a different type of player.
This have been a good conversation
I have had a think about this since I read it and I actually have lost enthusiasm for it a bit... and I am a big fan of Paizo, Pathfinder, and Golarian.
PvP...
The last thing this game need to be is another Darkfall.
It better have some kind of heavy and pretty permament (requiring huge effort or cost to remove) penalties for PKs that kill non evil player characters unprovoked, because while it should be allowable it should never be encouraged in this IP.
The last thing this game needs is to be pushed as is a typical open world gank fest... the type of community that attracts will kill it.
A huge part of me already wishes they had gone down the NWN community creation/ co-op model with this game rather then the MMORPG one.
I don't mind MMOs with no levels or classes but they could focus on translating a P&P game that doesn't have them either then, like Runequest or ARS Magica.
Yep, same here
Yes. Looks like name only... well, maybe world, too
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I agree, 4E did not kill D&D. It ruined it for me personally, but the name and spirit of the game lives.
It also allowed Pathfinder to be born and for a better company then WotC to inherit the legacy of 3.5 and do something good with it.
I couldnt be more happy with the way things turned out TBH.
I am not sure that they cannot find investors or that it is stupid to do so...It is a risk, just as anything is...Their are plenty of companies that people wish they would of got into at the ground...They have some known people, they are adapting a known entity...etc...
I think its a little early to judge anything, things change in alpha hugely, beta hugely...let alone concept stage...
It is not like being interested is a huge emotional investment that some people on here seem that if they decide to be interested, it will drain their life force....I signed up for info on the forum...I will probably forget this exists...I will get an email update, I will remember it exists...I will then check out the new info....rinse and repeat...I will not pay much attention positive or negatively until it is closer...I love the potential if done right....But it is too early to say it is/isn't.
It might not have killed D&D but it surely winged it.
Did you know that Pathfinder sells more than D&D? A lot more.
I been playing D&D since the 80s, I do remember complains about 3rd edition and many people staying in AD&D for a while, but 1 year after release everyone I know who plays (maybe 50 people) had moved to 3rd. I also go to P&P RPG cons every year and speak to a lot of people.
Now not a single person I know have moved to 4th, in fact I discovered Pathfinder when I was considering moving but just couldn't bring myself to it.
4th edition did bring in some new players, that much is true but they are few and far between.
They did kill Forgotten realms with 4th edition though, 2 badly written sourcebooks is all that is out after over 3 years and that is pathetic. The new FR core book released in August 2008. I am in fact running a campaign in it right now but I wish I stayed in 3rd. I am running it with Pathfinder though.
The thing is BTW that while Pathfinder is based on D&D 3rd edition it is a lot better, it gives a lot more customization options and characters of the same class can be very different, not just have a few different feats and spells.
4th was a mistake, if nothing else sales and how fast they publish books should show that. Pathfinder are releasing a few good books every month and it's campaign world is becomming very popular fast.
But how many big name companies started with an MMO? Trion did, but it's the exception to the rule. All I'm saying is that with all the failed MMOs from small companies with no money, this one hasn't won my confidence and I doubt it will win any investors' wallets either. I want this game to succeed, but I doubt it will.
We are in 100% agreement there.
If they want to push out useless stuff like that, at least put it together and sell it as some kind of expansion.
If the monthly fees aren't enough, just raise the price to 20 bucks and let everything be included instead.
Ah, but here they didn't start with a MMO, they started with a very popular pen and paper game.
So they have some experience at creating games and worlds, and just as important, they have other sources of income than just the game.
My lack of confidence is in GoblinWorks, which had nothing to do with the creation of the Pathfinder universe. According to their website, GoblinWorks practically doesn't even exist yet. They begin operation next year.
Interesting I'll definitely keep an eye on this!
I hope it'll be a themepark/sandboxy hybrid that so many have been waiting for.
Can't help but thing the game will give people the chance to write adventures / run them in a 'DM' mode possibly or have some sort of toolset for players to use like some other mmo's have incorporated.
I've always believed if you give players a WELL designed, powerful tool allowing them to craft adventures then submit it for approval, your game could potentially have so much more content than natural in house development could dish out.
Quality control would be your only worry in which case you'd need a dedicated group of in house designers to go over submitted content and make sure it's up to standards - if not, decline it with feedback and players could try their hand at polishing up the adventures they want to throw into the world.
BOYCOTTING EA / ORIGIN going forward.
A thing that is sometimes forgotten in the subscription model is the access fee.
We can go back and look at the PnP RPG idea - we bought books, we bought more books, etc. We cannot simply apply that to a MMORPG. With the PnP RPG, we played somewhere - whether it was at home, a friend's home, a community center, a gaming store, etc. Maybe we paid the rent. Maybe our parents paid the rent. At the gaming store, maybe they let you reserve the space for free - because you were buying items from the store - or maybe they charged you for the space. In some fashion, there was an access fee.
It should be possible, to see a company offering B2P + DLC + an access fee. Should that access fee be the same as a regular subscription? I would argue no. I could see it being a tiered access fee. After all, if you've got more content you're playing than somebody else - well, you're using more resources. Does not matter if you've paid for a license to access that content - you're still going to pay to access it.
You buy a car. You still have to buy gas for it.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Yeah, I don't know what is the big deal with the payment method.
I mean if this is actually any good...who cares how or how much you have to pay?
Buy Neverwinter Nights 1 here! | Unofficial NWN1 homepage | NWN1 guild on X-Fire
Arguing the various payment methods for games is a very hot topic on the forums here. People that might hate each other while discussing some of the other hot issues, will often come together if they share a common belief in regard to a certain payment method - forgetting that their hands might have been around each other's throats moments before. They tend not to find that common ground even if it exists while discussing other items.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
I am in no way saying that Pathfinder is bad, after all sooner or later something good have to come out of the OGL system. I am just saying that it is a bit daft to say 4.0 killed DnD. There is a good chance they will never reach the success of 3:d ed but then again it was hated like the plague when it came out by the "old" players too.
This have been a good conversation
Some of it simply comes down to the speed at which editions came out.
1st-2nd...12 years.
2nd-2.5... 7 years.
2nd-3rd...11 years.
3rd-3.5... 3 years.
3rd-4th... 8 years.
Also had the mess/mass of material put out with OGL...then bam, 4th - was kind of the feeling for some.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
I don't like to snipe, but coming from someone who worked at a game shop that thrived and continues to thrive even with 4th edition D&D sales - You don't give it a fair shake, and I gotta cast dispel misconceptions first.
A l close majority moved onto 4th edition, but thats not to say between all editions the numbers are not high. Pazio barely reaches a million players. There's probably about 10 million people solely playing D&D name branded materials, including about 3-4 million of them playing 4th thanks to Game day being a wonderful way WOTC has estimated numbers for almost 8 years now. There's probably still about a million playing some version of 3.0, about 2 playing 3.5, about 100k for 2nd, and it descreases the earlier you go. (100k for 2e was from 2008 so it's probably shrunk more)
Now, onto the matter of this game being a success? Not a chance. D&D unfortunately, is all about the adventures that the DM weaves SPECIFICALLY for their players. Unless they come out with some sort of mission architech like City of heroes has right from the get-go, it's going to be very lacking because THAT's Dungeons and Dragons/pathfinder. An MMO world vaguely based on evolutions of D&D? We have those, in SPADES. Neverwinter nights persistent worlds, D&DO (which for all its criticism actually captures the better parts of delving quite well) Dozens of MUDs still in existence. Everquest, ultima online, Warhammer, World of Warcraft all capture so many D&D-like feautures, so much so other tabletop gamers claim companies stole some of them back!
But this is not the issue at all, Unfortunately. It's because - Pazio doesn't have close to the amount of money Wizards of the coast, let alone Hasbro has. Remember that WOTC did not really finance D&DO, a successful MMO company did. These guys have absolutely no clue what they are getting into, and every word from Ryan Dancey shows he has not played an MMO in quite some time that modern gamers actually get, and in good numbers, let alone even looked over the design process for even a computer game, let alone an MMO that didn't have extremely strange ways to its success. EVE online is an example of a freak success, and if he thinks he could get the money from investors let alone bankroll a successful D&D-offshoot gamesystem into a profitable one, Well then It looks more like Pazio's gonna be shutting its doors before 2020 if begs enough pity money for his poject.
The woman who has run Pazio so successfully needs to get her head back on straight.
Here's to hoping it becomes something cool. But I bet, as they start putting what's on paper into the game, it'll become less and less like a sandbox.
I guess,...
I get the feeling that it will be another under developed Sandbox or another company picking it up and making more of mess of it.
i wouldn't pay it much mind for the next few years. the gaming world has a long history of MMOs that go belly up even as early as their pre-production phase. lots of factors to consider so nobody get your hopes up.
PFO community survey #1 http://freeonlinesurveys.com/rendersurvey.asp?sid=lggic9t9wh1cngi996636
BOYCOTTING EA / ORIGIN going forward.
Excited about the possibility.
Jaded by history...