I like challenge as much as the next guy, maybe more, but harsh death penalty does not increase difficulty or challenge.
You miss the point... it's not to do either.
DP isn't there to make the game more difficult, or increase the challenge. It is there to add a conequence to failure, to increase the risk, to play for higher stakes.
Sure, it provides lows, but lows are essential to emphasis highs... otherwise you have a even line of meh virtual knitting as you go through the motions safe in the knowledge it simply dosen't matter if you screw up or fail to improve.
Can I ask? Have you actually played a game with a real DP? I don't say this to knock you, just to understand your basis of opinion.
You are basicly correct. Death penalties are for people who do not have the willpower to challenge themselves and need an outside force to make the decision for them. They need the gambling aspect to compensate for the fact that they do not get a rush from challenging themselves. In turn they will never understand the gamer who attempts a difficult task simply to see if he/she can beat it. They need fear to motivate them since they lack the ability to be motivated by the challenge alon.
The self superior tone of your post aside...
Liking a DP isn't wanting any external agency to 'make a decision' for you. How can it be?
The only choice involved is really 'should I try it or not', and that's the same with or without a DP, except a DP makes it a 'braver' choice because there can be a negative outcome from it.
What you say seems a ridiculous statement, but I invite you to expand on it to make it seem less so.
Look... 'Just to see if I can' is ok by me, not actually putting that down as a mindset at all, whatever works for you, but it is trumped in my book by 'lets see if I can, but I am a bit more excited by knowing theres something at stake if I can't'.
The added dimension of a 'gamble' of a DP DOES make it more fun for me, I totally admit and agree, because it's an added element to the same thing (the 'lets see if I can'). I get that some like a safer play environment with no cost of failure, and thats cool, but it isn't what I personally look for.
Whatever I feel about achieving without DP is heightended with one. 'Fear' can be exciting and it makes me a better player.
Sorry OP it is just something in our genes our upbringing ect ect.it is not soemthing you can put on the table and point to it,so if yo iucan't grasp it then you never will.
I can use a few analogy's that might help to at least understand it.
Sports....You play sports to have fun ,just like gaming right?However jsut like gaming we also like to be challenged,not EVERYONE,i see the OP as falling int othe "other" category.Some people i know would rather win every game even if by default.The people that "get it" understand that a default win is not satisfaction becuase we NEED to be challenged.I use this example becuase i will further into the "death penalty".EXACTLY like gaming ,in sports if your team loses too many games,you risk not making the playoffs,this would be the same as a deathpenalty.
It is all full of risk and rewards and satisfaction,this is why for those that "get it" sports is such an amazing fun past time/hobby.
Obviously if your parents were into hunting or reading books or studying piano,yopu might not get it,but friends and outside influences usually allows most to understand it.
Another analogy would be to try and ask "WHY" a person would cheat ,example aimbot in a game?You see i again see the OP as one who would cheat,because he wouldn't understand the WHY you shouldn't.I don't feel like explaining the why,because most understand it.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I like challenge as much as the next guy, maybe more, but harsh death penalty does not increase difficulty or challenge.
You miss the point... it's not to do either.
DP isn't there to make the game more difficult, or increase the challenge. It is there to add a conequence to failure, to increase the risk, to play for higher stakes.
Sure, it provides lows, but lows are essential to emphasis highs... otherwise you have a even line of meh virtual knitting as you go through the motions safe in the knowledge it simply dosen't matter if you screw up or fail to improve.
Can I ask? Have you actually played a game with a real DP? I don't say this to knock you, just to understand your basis of opinion.
Yes, but in practice, the games are virtual knitting with harsh death penalty. It doesn't give me any rush. How 'bout you?
Do I get a rush when I 'win' in MMORPGs that have a DP? Sure... I wouldn't play them at all is all I experienced was a flatline of meh.
In fact, that flatline of meh is exactly my issue with modern MMOs.
With electrified knitting needles that delivered a jolt if you dropped a stitch maybe even that might be a bit more exciting. And it not at least it would make you pay attention and become a better knitter faster.
I like challenge as much as the next guy, maybe more, but harsh death penalty does not increase difficulty or challenge.
You miss the point... it's not to do either.
DP isn't there to make the game more difficult, or increase the challenge. It is there to add a conequence to failure, to increase the risk, to play for higher stakes.
Sure, it provides lows, but lows are essential to emphasis highs... otherwise you have a even line of meh virtual knitting as you go through the motions safe in the knowledge it simply dosen't matter if you screw up or fail to improve.
Can I ask? Have you actually played a game with a real DP? I don't say this to knock you, just to understand your basis of opinion.
You are basicly correct. Death penalties are for people who do not have the willpower to challenge themselves and need an outside force to make the decision for them. They need the gambling aspect to compensate for the fact that they do not get a rush from challenging themselves. In turn they will never understand the gamer who attempts a difficult task simply to see if he/she can beat it. They need fear to motivate them since they lack the ability to be motivated by the challenge alon.
This is how I get my rush.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
What people really seek I guess is the Challenge of Addaptability, and the Adventure it provides.
i do not see this as Difficulty per se. I mean, when i first started adventuring in the world of Sossaria, or more commonly known as Brittania (post Lord British reforms), I had to addapt to that world, my bubble was burst several times and my eyes were opened.
I learned to avoid trappings of other players I was sharing this world with, I learned to fight back and to overcome challenges that the environment threw my way, in short I learned to be addaptable and survive.
It was an adventurous experience, and appealed to some aspects of our being which we have develloped over the course of Human history and which we do not experience on a daily basis in the modern world.
Today we live, but we came to this point by surviving, learnind to be flexible and addaptable to various situations.
So it was not a case of masochism to want to feel hurt in a game, but rather the appeal of a game that contained a degree of adventure as opposed to a mondain repetitious activity for the sole purpose of progressing a virtual character.
In this case, there was also a progression that was taking place at the level of the player as well as the level of the virtual character which the player animates.
Because in the end, the character does not think or feel, the player does, and so the environment reached out to the player.
Unfortunatelly, subsequent itterations in many other games that have tried to implement a similar experience, have almost all failed. because I think, there was no genuine passion and vision in what they were trying to do behind their motives to do it, these games only replicated the mechanics without any spirit behid it, mainly trying to appeal to players in an attemp to get a business going, and profits.
When people make games only for money it shows and it is felt through the game. Yet this is the case with many games now days, since these have become such big indeavors that lots of money is required to make them and the people who are willing to churn out (Invest) that money, more often than not, are not passionate about making games themselves they are in it for the money only. But lets not get too far from the topic at hand.
In my opinion, it is the adventure that we seek not the pain, repeating an instance 100 times for a chance to complete a set of gear might be as entertaining as collecting stamps but it is not an adventure.
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
it separates the boys from the men and the good from the bad.
players are 100x braver when there's no penalty in place......with a DP most of those player will bail because of the POSSIBLE consequences. Thus a bigger achievement for those that dont p their pants.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
Difficulty is about challenge, death penalty is about risk. How the fuck do people not grasp the fact that it is a part of many peoples nature to enjoy and seek risk?
A wager on the result of a football match is heightened when there is money on the line. Base jumping would provide less of a thrill if you knew there was no risk of injury or death whatsoever.
Risk is not for people who are jaded, or people who have "no willpower" (I can't believe someone came out with such crap even on these forums). It is simply something which appeals to human nature in many, many people.
I like a challenge and I enjoy risk, oh noes!!!!
As for difficulty and challenge, surely it is even more obvious why people seek that?
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Do I get a rush when I 'win' in MMORPGs that have a DP? Sure... I wouldn't play them at all is all I experienced was a flatline of meh.
In fact, that flatline of meh is exactly my issue with modern MMOs.
With electrified knitting needles that delivered a jolt if you dropped a stitch maybe even that might be a bit more exciting. And it not at least it would make you pay attention and become a better knitter faster.
Research suggests that such pressure is actually harmful to your productivity and creativity. I'll let you do the googling for yourself - maybe use Google Scholar.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Difficulty is about challenge, death penalty is about risk. How the fuck do people not grasp the fact that it is a part of many peoples nature to enjoy and seek risk?
[...]
Risk is not for people who are jaded, or people who have "no willpower" (I can't believe someone came out with such crap even on these forums). It is simply something which appeals to human nature in many, many people.
its not the possible consequences but if i know im gonna lose all my equipment becaue i die im not gonna try to take down a mob 2-3 levels higher.
comparing dp to not making playoffs isnt a relative argument. If they dont make the playoffs they can still play basketball the next week as long as season isnt over.
In mmos if u lose all your stuff u have to go kill lower level shit for hrs to slowly build up your gear again. So u can run the dungoens that got u good gear in the first place to run raids or whatnot.
A dp penalty where u can be lootd is more like a basketball team loses so all there equipment is taken away until they can find equipment they cant play games in that league anymore.
If a team knew the risk of losing was never playign again theyd never play to start.. Missing the playoffs hurts but u can still play again nex season and u still have all your equipment.
The challenge isnt iin losing or not losing. The better team is gonna win its in knowing the other team is more talented and busting your butt to win not because if u lose u dont make playoffs but because winning the game makes u feel good.
The fact is what makes sports so great is the feeling u get win or lose. Not some penalty inposed for failing. If a team knew playing a better team meant they couldnt play next year then theyd never put thos teams on the schedule.
Wheras knowing they can stil play the game even if they lose the real challenge is in taken on a team better then u and doing everything u can to beat them not in the penalty ud incure for losing.
Do I get a rush when I 'win' in MMORPGs that have a DP? Sure... I wouldn't play them at all is all I experienced was a flatline of meh.
In fact, that flatline of meh is exactly my issue with modern MMOs.
With electrified knitting needles that delivered a jolt if you dropped a stitch maybe even that might be a bit more exciting. And it not at least it would make you pay attention and become a better knitter faster.
Research suggests that such pressure is actually harmful to your productivity and creativity. I'll let you do the googling for yourself - maybe use Google Scholar.
Then it is good that most people look to have fun in games and not to increase their "productivity and creativity".
Some might even want to avoid "increasing their effectiveness" while spending their leisure time on gaming just because real world is so much about "creativity and productivity and effectiveness" that in leisure time you really don't want to think and act on those principles?
Do I get a rush when I 'win' in MMORPGs that have a DP? Sure... I wouldn't play them at all is all I experienced was a flatline of meh.
In fact, that flatline of meh is exactly my issue with modern MMOs.
With electrified knitting needles that delivered a jolt if you dropped a stitch maybe even that might be a bit more exciting. And it not at least it would make you pay attention and become a better knitter faster.
Research suggests that such pressure is actually harmful to your productivity and creativity. I'll let you do the googling for yourself - maybe use Google Scholar.
Lol. Many people, in many differing job types perform exceptionally well in high pressure jobs/situations and environments. I don't need to look on Google to grasp that fact.
The fact is some people thrive under such pressure, some do not. What I don't understand is people trying to rage on against those that do enjoy the pressure.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
The simple answer that will get me flamed even though it's the truth:
people want to have a real-world feeling of life and death without any real consequences. If there were a game that was actually like real life (kill anybody anywhere at any time, leave evidence behind, police look for the killer, if you die you're DEAD, etc.) then no one would actually play it. Why? Because there are plenty of people out there that realize that there aren't actually any consquences for what happens in a video game. If life were a video game I wouldn't have any problem going out and gunning random people down.
It's not because I don't have any empathy or I'm a psycho. It's because I realize I'm not actually doing anything to a real person. I'm killing a character in a video game. The player might lose a character, but they can make another one. In the end I'm not really hurting anybody if they aren't addicted to the game. Addicts might suffer real-world trauma, but that's not really my fault. It's a video game, it's not meant to be taken -that- seriously.
Conversely, the reason why I and others don't go around killing random people isn't because of fear of reprisal. It's because we have empathy for fellow humans and we value life. If I have my digital character shoot your digital character in the face it wouldn't be any different than if a few lines of code got corrupted and your character was erased. Unlike real life though, you can just make another character that looks exactly the same and probably has a similar name.
Having said all of this I can now make my point as to why no one would play such a game. The reason is because the intention of the game would likely devolve into people running around murdering each other at random. One could argue that players could police each other, but that's getting even further into the realm of real life and at that point why bother?
I'm not saying I have a problem with the people that are asking for games like this, rather I'm merely hypothesizing as to their reasons.
Originally posted by Enerzeal We aren't for disadvantages against everyone else. We want a world where the stakes are higher for everyone involved.
^^ This.
What's the big deal?
No one is saying YOU have to play that way. Some people are saying .. what Enerzeal said.
In my words: We want a world where people have played through the same perils and relish in them.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Do I get a rush when I 'win' in MMORPGs that have a DP? Sure... I wouldn't play them at all is all I experienced was a flatline of meh.
In fact, that flatline of meh is exactly my issue with modern MMOs.
With electrified knitting needles that delivered a jolt if you dropped a stitch maybe even that might be a bit more exciting. And it not at least it would make you pay attention and become a better knitter faster.
Research suggests that such pressure is actually harmful to your productivity and creativity. I'll let you do the googling for yourself - maybe use Google Scholar.
Then it is good that most people look to have fun in games and not to increase their "productivity and creativity".
Risk vs reward is a naturally sought after aspect in all human endeavours. Most people feel that MMOs are fairly easy because they've "seen" most of what the genre has to offer.
The next step is to make the content "smarter" or "harder" or at least act as a real test.
When things are too easy we get bored generally.
I mean there are those who like to do easy things over and over for vanity reasons. That's probably more common than it needs to be now a days.
Yet people minimize the risk...Shouldn't the reward be reduced too?
What if people don't value the reward? Does your concept of risk vs reward hold up to that?
People want reward but want it as easily as they can get it. Anyone who has attempted to minimize the risk falls into that category.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Do I get a rush when I 'win' in MMORPGs that have a DP? Sure... I wouldn't play them at all is all I experienced was a flatline of meh.
In fact, that flatline of meh is exactly my issue with modern MMOs.
With electrified knitting needles that delivered a jolt if you dropped a stitch maybe even that might be a bit more exciting. And it not at least it would make you pay attention and become a better knitter faster.
Research suggests that such pressure is actually harmful to your productivity and creativity. I'll let you do the googling for yourself - maybe use Google Scholar.
Lol. Many people, in many differing job types perform exceptionally well in high pressure jobs/situations and environments. I don't need to look on Google to grasp that fact.
The fact is some people thrive under such pressure, some do not. What I don't understand is people trying to rage on against those that do enjoy the pressure.
Agreed.
To me the 'pressure' of failure makes succeeding all the sweeter, and it makes me personally a better more attentive player.
The OP can only get his rush from activities involve physical activity and where failure carries a high risk of physical injury and pain. And that's great.
Personally I'm perfectly happy getting my kicks without such a high risk of pain and injury.
Physical kicks vs cerebral kicks. And no, I'm not making any veiled comments about intelligence. I am merely pointing out that different people want and take pleasure from different things. Some people like scotch, others like beer.
There are plenty of factors to take in account when talking about this subject. Death penalties are to this day one, and if not the major, way found to assure that there is a way to control player behaviour when playing a game. I do find it a "must have" when playing mmorpgs, not only to assure that "leroy jenkins" ramparts happens not that often, but also to reward player for tactical play. There are, in my opinion ofc, 2 crucial aspects to take in consideration when talking about dp: the game design and the combat mechanics.
When talking about game design, 2 games pop instantly to my mind: EvE Online and (lets take one of the big boys) WoW. If you have played EvE and WoW (or one of the same style) you know what dp means for real when considering both games. Now i ask: can you have same penalties when geting defeated in both these games? No, of course. Playing EvE, you get your ship blown up, what would you want to happen? Race with a ghost ship to the closest station? Losing the ship and risking to lose your body is the only thing that makes sense in EvE, and im glad it is there. But what if same thing could happen in WoW? That would be too harsh ofc, geting spanked while playing the pally and you would lose your gear or be looted by enemy player. Here game design takes in account that theres a try to make a death incurr a somewhat "realistic" feel to the world you are playing. They must exist, in whatever form you may think.
Combat mechanics are, for me, the most important aspect of dp, second to game design. The risk/reward of engaging an enemy player or npc has to be in balance with its respective dp. If not, EvE mechanics would not work, people would rush to every target they would see fit, no matter the odds given by ship/skills, because they would have nothing to lose. Same thing with WoW, but here things have to be a bit slower, because games like that need to be fast paced, action oriented, or combat would be dull, and of no real interest to the player if everytime you would engage you would risk to lose everything. So here dps take a lighter approach, wich it makes perfect sense for me.
No matter how you see it, DPs have to exist in mmorpgs, and i cant imagine playing a game where i can go beserk everytime i want and ruin game experience for other gamers.
For me, i like harsh DPs, if there is a risk/reward that benefits both ends. If i had to play a WoW style game where you could loot the player, its design and mechanics had to be made in a way where there could be players alot more powerful than some others, where would be a secondary leveling system, that could allow max level players to go beyond normal standards, acquiring powerful weapons and gear, alot like EvE leveling system or WAR rep system. That would encourage people to try and engage these players, knowing that the reward could be great.....oh well....its clearer in my mind but having an hard time to put it in words....
Do I get a rush when I 'win' in MMORPGs that have a DP? Sure... I wouldn't play them at all is all I experienced was a flatline of meh.
In fact, that flatline of meh is exactly my issue with modern MMOs.
With electrified knitting needles that delivered a jolt if you dropped a stitch maybe even that might be a bit more exciting. And it not at least it would make you pay attention and become a better knitter faster.
Research suggests that such pressure is actually harmful to your productivity and creativity. I'll let you do the googling for yourself - maybe use Google Scholar.
Then it is good that most people look to have fun in games and not to increase their "productivity and creativity".
Some might even want to avoid "increasing their effectiveness" while spending their leisure time on gaming just because real world is so much about "creativity and productivity and effectiveness" that in leisure time you really don't want to think and act on those principles?
You missed the point. The argument was against his vesavius' suggestion that high risk makes better players.
People have though that motivating their laborforce in either rewarding the best or punishinig the worst makes them better workers. Only recently they thought to test this, and surprisingly, the effects of such pressure can be harmful to their performance depending on the task.
It is not a huge leap from this to talking about high risk and high reward in games.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Do I get a rush when I 'win' in MMORPGs that have a DP? Sure... I wouldn't play them at all is all I experienced was a flatline of meh.
In fact, that flatline of meh is exactly my issue with modern MMOs.
With electrified knitting needles that delivered a jolt if you dropped a stitch maybe even that might be a bit more exciting. And it not at least it would make you pay attention and become a better knitter faster.
Research suggests that such pressure is actually harmful to your productivity and creativity. I'll let you do the googling for yourself - maybe use Google Scholar.
Lol. Many people, in many differing job types perform exceptionally well in high pressure jobs/situations and environments. I don't need to look on Google to grasp that fact.
The fact is some people thrive under such pressure, some do not. What I don't understand is people trying to rage on against those that do enjoy the pressure.
Certainly some people seem to shine under pressure, but that can be due to the fact that some people simply choke under pressure. They just may not choke as much as some. Can you say that their performance is actually improved by imposing pressure? With everything they do?
I have no issue against those who want harsh DP. I have issue with those who seem to think that harsh DP always makes any game better for everyone - which is obviously wrong. Those who don't care about gambling don't care about harsh DP. To them, it is like Blackjack without bets - just a boring card game.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
^I've played EvE Online and still do once in a while extensively. I've also played Final Fantasy XI for...too long, and Lineage 2. Hell, I had a permared on Lineage 2. XI and L2 were back when I was younger, had no bike (or balls), and more importantly, had a lot of spare time.
It just seems like ppl want to cry for the sake of crying. EvE Online is EvE Online, if people want death penalities, go play that. But then you have a bunch of flame posts going "OMFG WHY GAMEZ SO EZ NOW?!?!?!!". I dunno? Maybe because the majority of the population is like ME that don't have 2 hours to waddle through monsters while gearless to pick up their corpse in order to go back to leveling.
And whoever said you learn through death penaltiies in video games: no you don't. I used to play fighters competitively against a training dummy (ie. training modes) where they do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. You create the challenge yourself; whether it's to create a combo ex video, get a 99/100 execution rate on some stupid long dust loop *COUGH* Sol Badguy, or if you're insane like Diago, you just practice parrying Chun Li's super from third strike. The only thing a death penalty does in video games is it kicks casuals out, ie. the MAIN $$$$ SUBs, of the game.
Also, I realized my example is actually pretty stupid because you cannot even compare the two. There are no HP bars, or combat logs in real life. Among the stunters I hang out with, we all realize that in order to become better stunters, we HAVE to make mistakes. In order for a racer, athlete, stunt rider, whatever, to realize where the limit is, they need to go past it. Going past it involves accidents...but sometimes may very well give you a higher limit. In video games, you KNOW your limit, you've got the bars, you've got the data. Tell me, where on my helmet shield does it tell me the maximum lean angle or the max amount of torque I should apply before causing a high/low side? Better yet, tell me where or who is going to tell me exactly how much % of throttle and brake I should apply for an infinite burnout? Or the one thing I still can't do yet: how much throttle, brake, and lean do I have to use in order to perform a J drift stop without flipping with the bike?
I'm pretty sure the majority of this community won't understand; only the ones who are adrenaline junkies or participate in extreme sports will.
Certainly some people seem to shine under pressure, but that can be due to the fact that some people simply choke under pressure. They just may not choke as much as some. Can you say that their performance is actually improved by imposing pressure? With everything they do?
I have no issue against those who want harsh DP. I have issue with those who seem to think that harsh DP always makes any game better for everyone - which is obviously wrong. Those who don't care about gambling don't care about harsh DP. To them, it is like Blackjack without bets - just a boring card game.
Can I say some people actually perfom better under pressure? Yes, I can. Some people actively seek that pressure and without it they perfom half heartedly, thus clearly their performance increases under pressure.
Does everyone work that way.. nope. Do some just "choke less" as you put it, yep. But oddly enough some people do actually "do better" under pressure.
And no, I certainly do no think high pressure, or high risk or high challenge, or pvp or any other form of gaming is for everyone. I can understand why people would not want such game mechanics, what I can't understand is people ignoring the quite fundamental reasons why people would enjoy such systems and instead try and hypothesise reasons which essentially seek to belittle people who enjoy said systems.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
I prefer death penalties, but the game needs to be designed around them.
In a game without penalty, you end up thinking less, charging mobs repeatedly if you win great, if not you jump straight back in. It gets meh very quickly.
With a death penalty you find yourself calculating odds, strategising at all times and gaining a sense of danger and when you succeed, getting a much fuller sense of achievement.
But to re-iterate the game has to be designed around it, it wouldn't work so well in a game like WoW.
Do I get a rush when I 'win' in MMORPGs that have a DP? Sure... I wouldn't play them at all is all I experienced was a flatline of meh.
In fact, that flatline of meh is exactly my issue with modern MMOs.
With electrified knitting needles that delivered a jolt if you dropped a stitch maybe even that might be a bit more exciting. And it not at least it would make you pay attention and become a better knitter faster.
Research suggests that such pressure is actually harmful to your productivity and creativity. I'll let you do the googling for yourself - maybe use Google Scholar.
Then it is good that most people look to have fun in games and not to increase their "productivity and creativity".
Some might even want to avoid "increasing their effectiveness" while spending their leisure time on gaming just because real world is so much about "creativity and productivity and effectiveness" that in leisure time you really don't want to think and act on those principles?
You missed the point. The argument was against his vesavius' suggestion that high risk makes better players.
People have though that motivating their laborforce in either rewarding the best or punishinig the worst makes them better workers. Only recently they thought to test this, and surprisingly, the effects of such pressure can be harmful to their performance depending on the task.
It is not a huge leap from this to talking about high risk and high reward in games.
Yeah I know about those theories, had them talked on my University. I agree, but fortunatelly game is not work and I don't think you can copy same or even very similar responses between work & gameplay. One you do because you have to (at least most ppl do) and second is willing activity (unless you addicted).
Anyway, this can be discussed what make better players what worse.
I don't care though. If there is no risk for me there is no fun OR it stop becoming fun very quickly.
That's why I prefer and advocate more risks in game. I actually like more challange as well, but if there is no risk then challenge only mean frustration and boring. Just feel better if I "achievee" something if there is risk involved.
Now there is other thing to make risk (penalty) not too harsh, and not too small.
I f.e. don't like ffa full loot usually or loong times of trying to recover gear from corpse, but dying and suffering no consequences(as losing bit of gold on repairs for me is no consequence at all) like in most mmorpg's is mind-boggling and boring also
Comments
The self superior tone of your post aside...
Liking a DP isn't wanting any external agency to 'make a decision' for you. How can it be?
The only choice involved is really 'should I try it or not', and that's the same with or without a DP, except a DP makes it a 'braver' choice because there can be a negative outcome from it.
What you say seems a ridiculous statement, but I invite you to expand on it to make it seem less so.
Look... 'Just to see if I can' is ok by me, not actually putting that down as a mindset at all, whatever works for you, but it is trumped in my book by 'lets see if I can, but I am a bit more excited by knowing theres something at stake if I can't'.
The added dimension of a 'gamble' of a DP DOES make it more fun for me, I totally admit and agree, because it's an added element to the same thing (the 'lets see if I can'). I get that some like a safer play environment with no cost of failure, and thats cool, but it isn't what I personally look for.
Whatever I feel about achieving without DP is heightended with one. 'Fear' can be exciting and it makes me a better player.
Sorry OP it is just something in our genes our upbringing ect ect.it is not soemthing you can put on the table and point to it,so if yo iucan't grasp it then you never will.
I can use a few analogy's that might help to at least understand it.
Sports....You play sports to have fun ,just like gaming right?However jsut like gaming we also like to be challenged,not EVERYONE,i see the OP as falling int othe "other" category.Some people i know would rather win every game even if by default.The people that "get it" understand that a default win is not satisfaction becuase we NEED to be challenged.I use this example becuase i will further into the "death penalty".EXACTLY like gaming ,in sports if your team loses too many games,you risk not making the playoffs,this would be the same as a deathpenalty.
It is all full of risk and rewards and satisfaction,this is why for those that "get it" sports is such an amazing fun past time/hobby.
Obviously if your parents were into hunting or reading books or studying piano,yopu might not get it,but friends and outside influences usually allows most to understand it.
Another analogy would be to try and ask "WHY" a person would cheat ,example aimbot in a game?You see i again see the OP as one who would cheat,because he wouldn't understand the WHY you shouldn't.I don't feel like explaining the why,because most understand it.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Do I get a rush when I 'win' in MMORPGs that have a DP? Sure... I wouldn't play them at all is all I experienced was a flatline of meh.
In fact, that flatline of meh is exactly my issue with modern MMOs.
With electrified knitting needles that delivered a jolt if you dropped a stitch maybe even that might be a bit more exciting. And it not at least it would make you pay attention and become a better knitter faster.
This is how I get my rush.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Well,
What people really seek I guess is the Challenge of Addaptability, and the Adventure it provides.
i do not see this as Difficulty per se. I mean, when i first started adventuring in the world of Sossaria, or more commonly known as Brittania (post Lord British reforms), I had to addapt to that world, my bubble was burst several times and my eyes were opened.
I learned to avoid trappings of other players I was sharing this world with, I learned to fight back and to overcome challenges that the environment threw my way, in short I learned to be addaptable and survive.
It was an adventurous experience, and appealed to some aspects of our being which we have develloped over the course of Human history and which we do not experience on a daily basis in the modern world.
Today we live, but we came to this point by surviving, learnind to be flexible and addaptable to various situations.
So it was not a case of masochism to want to feel hurt in a game, but rather the appeal of a game that contained a degree of adventure as opposed to a mondain repetitious activity for the sole purpose of progressing a virtual character.
In this case, there was also a progression that was taking place at the level of the player as well as the level of the virtual character which the player animates.
Because in the end, the character does not think or feel, the player does, and so the environment reached out to the player.
Unfortunatelly, subsequent itterations in many other games that have tried to implement a similar experience, have almost all failed. because I think, there was no genuine passion and vision in what they were trying to do behind their motives to do it, these games only replicated the mechanics without any spirit behid it, mainly trying to appeal to players in an attemp to get a business going, and profits.
When people make games only for money it shows and it is felt through the game. Yet this is the case with many games now days, since these have become such big indeavors that lots of money is required to make them and the people who are willing to churn out (Invest) that money, more often than not, are not passionate about making games themselves they are in it for the money only. But lets not get too far from the topic at hand.
In my opinion, it is the adventure that we seek not the pain, repeating an instance 100 times for a chance to complete a set of gear might be as entertaining as collecting stamps but it is not an adventure.
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
it separates the boys from the men and the good from the bad.
players are 100x braver when there's no penalty in place......with a DP most of those player will bail because of the POSSIBLE consequences. Thus a bigger achievement for those that dont p their pants.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
Difficulty is about challenge, death penalty is about risk. How the fuck do people not grasp the fact that it is a part of many peoples nature to enjoy and seek risk?
A wager on the result of a football match is heightened when there is money on the line. Base jumping would provide less of a thrill if you knew there was no risk of injury or death whatsoever.
Risk is not for people who are jaded, or people who have "no willpower" (I can't believe someone came out with such crap even on these forums). It is simply something which appeals to human nature in many, many people.
I like a challenge and I enjoy risk, oh noes!!!!
As for difficulty and challenge, surely it is even more obvious why people seek that?
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Research suggests that such pressure is actually harmful to your productivity and creativity. I'll let you do the googling for yourself - maybe use Google Scholar.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
+ 1
Very much agreed.
its not the possible consequences but if i know im gonna lose all my equipment becaue i die im not gonna try to take down a mob 2-3 levels higher.
comparing dp to not making playoffs isnt a relative argument. If they dont make the playoffs they can still play basketball the next week as long as season isnt over.
In mmos if u lose all your stuff u have to go kill lower level shit for hrs to slowly build up your gear again. So u can run the dungoens that got u good gear in the first place to run raids or whatnot.
A dp penalty where u can be lootd is more like a basketball team loses so all there equipment is taken away until they can find equipment they cant play games in that league anymore.
If a team knew the risk of losing was never playign again theyd never play to start.. Missing the playoffs hurts but u can still play again nex season and u still have all your equipment.
The challenge isnt iin losing or not losing. The better team is gonna win its in knowing the other team is more talented and busting your butt to win not because if u lose u dont make playoffs but because winning the game makes u feel good.
The fact is what makes sports so great is the feeling u get win or lose. Not some penalty inposed for failing. If a team knew playing a better team meant they couldnt play next year then theyd never put thos teams on the schedule.
Wheras knowing they can stil play the game even if they lose the real challenge is in taken on a team better then u and doing everything u can to beat them not in the penalty ud incure for losing.
Then it is good that most people look to have fun in games and not to increase their "productivity and creativity".
Some might even want to avoid "increasing their effectiveness" while spending their leisure time on gaming just because real world is so much about "creativity and productivity and effectiveness" that in leisure time you really don't want to think and act on those principles?
Lol. Many people, in many differing job types perform exceptionally well in high pressure jobs/situations and environments. I don't need to look on Google to grasp that fact.
The fact is some people thrive under such pressure, some do not. What I don't understand is people trying to rage on against those that do enjoy the pressure.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
The simple answer that will get me flamed even though it's the truth:
people want to have a real-world feeling of life and death without any real consequences. If there were a game that was actually like real life (kill anybody anywhere at any time, leave evidence behind, police look for the killer, if you die you're DEAD, etc.) then no one would actually play it. Why? Because there are plenty of people out there that realize that there aren't actually any consquences for what happens in a video game. If life were a video game I wouldn't have any problem going out and gunning random people down.
It's not because I don't have any empathy or I'm a psycho. It's because I realize I'm not actually doing anything to a real person. I'm killing a character in a video game. The player might lose a character, but they can make another one. In the end I'm not really hurting anybody if they aren't addicted to the game. Addicts might suffer real-world trauma, but that's not really my fault. It's a video game, it's not meant to be taken -that- seriously.
Conversely, the reason why I and others don't go around killing random people isn't because of fear of reprisal. It's because we have empathy for fellow humans and we value life. If I have my digital character shoot your digital character in the face it wouldn't be any different than if a few lines of code got corrupted and your character was erased. Unlike real life though, you can just make another character that looks exactly the same and probably has a similar name.
Having said all of this I can now make my point as to why no one would play such a game. The reason is because the intention of the game would likely devolve into people running around murdering each other at random. One could argue that players could police each other, but that's getting even further into the realm of real life and at that point why bother?
I'm not saying I have a problem with the people that are asking for games like this, rather I'm merely hypothesizing as to their reasons.
^^ This.
What's the big deal?
No one is saying YOU have to play that way. Some people are saying .. what Enerzeal said.
In my words: We want a world where people have played through the same perils and relish in them.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
heh... exactly.
Yet people minimize the risk...Shouldn't the reward be reduced too?
What if people don't value the reward? Does your concept of risk vs reward hold up to that?
People want reward but want it as easily as they can get it. Anyone who has attempted to minimize the risk falls into that category.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Agreed.
To me the 'pressure' of failure makes succeeding all the sweeter, and it makes me personally a better more attentive player.
The OP can only get his rush from activities involve physical activity and where failure carries a high risk of physical injury and pain. And that's great.
Personally I'm perfectly happy getting my kicks without such a high risk of pain and injury.
Physical kicks vs cerebral kicks. And no, I'm not making any veiled comments about intelligence. I am merely pointing out that different people want and take pleasure from different things. Some people like scotch, others like beer.
There are plenty of factors to take in account when talking about this subject. Death penalties are to this day one, and if not the major, way found to assure that there is a way to control player behaviour when playing a game. I do find it a "must have" when playing mmorpgs, not only to assure that "leroy jenkins" ramparts happens not that often, but also to reward player for tactical play. There are, in my opinion ofc, 2 crucial aspects to take in consideration when talking about dp: the game design and the combat mechanics.
When talking about game design, 2 games pop instantly to my mind: EvE Online and (lets take one of the big boys) WoW. If you have played EvE and WoW (or one of the same style) you know what dp means for real when considering both games. Now i ask: can you have same penalties when geting defeated in both these games? No, of course. Playing EvE, you get your ship blown up, what would you want to happen? Race with a ghost ship to the closest station? Losing the ship and risking to lose your body is the only thing that makes sense in EvE, and im glad it is there. But what if same thing could happen in WoW? That would be too harsh ofc, geting spanked while playing the pally and you would lose your gear or be looted by enemy player. Here game design takes in account that theres a try to make a death incurr a somewhat "realistic" feel to the world you are playing. They must exist, in whatever form you may think.
Combat mechanics are, for me, the most important aspect of dp, second to game design. The risk/reward of engaging an enemy player or npc has to be in balance with its respective dp. If not, EvE mechanics would not work, people would rush to every target they would see fit, no matter the odds given by ship/skills, because they would have nothing to lose. Same thing with WoW, but here things have to be a bit slower, because games like that need to be fast paced, action oriented, or combat would be dull, and of no real interest to the player if everytime you would engage you would risk to lose everything. So here dps take a lighter approach, wich it makes perfect sense for me.
No matter how you see it, DPs have to exist in mmorpgs, and i cant imagine playing a game where i can go beserk everytime i want and ruin game experience for other gamers.
For me, i like harsh DPs, if there is a risk/reward that benefits both ends. If i had to play a WoW style game where you could loot the player, its design and mechanics had to be made in a way where there could be players alot more powerful than some others, where would be a secondary leveling system, that could allow max level players to go beyond normal standards, acquiring powerful weapons and gear, alot like EvE leveling system or WAR rep system. That would encourage people to try and engage these players, knowing that the reward could be great.....oh well....its clearer in my mind but having an hard time to put it in words....
EvE players know what i mean
You missed the point. The argument was against his vesavius' suggestion that high risk makes better players.
People have though that motivating their laborforce in either rewarding the best or punishinig the worst makes them better workers. Only recently they thought to test this, and surprisingly, the effects of such pressure can be harmful to their performance depending on the task.
It is not a huge leap from this to talking about high risk and high reward in games.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Certainly some people seem to shine under pressure, but that can be due to the fact that some people simply choke under pressure. They just may not choke as much as some. Can you say that their performance is actually improved by imposing pressure? With everything they do?
I have no issue against those who want harsh DP. I have issue with those who seem to think that harsh DP always makes any game better for everyone - which is obviously wrong. Those who don't care about gambling don't care about harsh DP. To them, it is like Blackjack without bets - just a boring card game.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
^I've played EvE Online and still do once in a while extensively. I've also played Final Fantasy XI for...too long, and Lineage 2. Hell, I had a permared on Lineage 2. XI and L2 were back when I was younger, had no bike (or balls), and more importantly, had a lot of spare time.
It just seems like ppl want to cry for the sake of crying. EvE Online is EvE Online, if people want death penalities, go play that. But then you have a bunch of flame posts going "OMFG WHY GAMEZ SO EZ NOW?!?!?!!". I dunno? Maybe because the majority of the population is like ME that don't have 2 hours to waddle through monsters while gearless to pick up their corpse in order to go back to leveling.
And whoever said you learn through death penaltiies in video games: no you don't. I used to play fighters competitively against a training dummy (ie. training modes) where they do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. You create the challenge yourself; whether it's to create a combo ex video, get a 99/100 execution rate on some stupid long dust loop *COUGH* Sol Badguy, or if you're insane like Diago, you just practice parrying Chun Li's super from third strike. The only thing a death penalty does in video games is it kicks casuals out, ie. the MAIN $$$$ SUBs, of the game.
Also, I realized my example is actually pretty stupid because you cannot even compare the two. There are no HP bars, or combat logs in real life. Among the stunters I hang out with, we all realize that in order to become better stunters, we HAVE to make mistakes. In order for a racer, athlete, stunt rider, whatever, to realize where the limit is, they need to go past it. Going past it involves accidents...but sometimes may very well give you a higher limit. In video games, you KNOW your limit, you've got the bars, you've got the data. Tell me, where on my helmet shield does it tell me the maximum lean angle or the max amount of torque I should apply before causing a high/low side? Better yet, tell me where or who is going to tell me exactly how much % of throttle and brake I should apply for an infinite burnout? Or the one thing I still can't do yet: how much throttle, brake, and lean do I have to use in order to perform a J drift stop without flipping with the bike?
I'm pretty sure the majority of this community won't understand; only the ones who are adrenaline junkies or participate in extreme sports will.
Can I say some people actually perfom better under pressure? Yes, I can. Some people actively seek that pressure and without it they perfom half heartedly, thus clearly their performance increases under pressure.
Does everyone work that way.. nope. Do some just "choke less" as you put it, yep. But oddly enough some people do actually "do better" under pressure.
And no, I certainly do no think high pressure, or high risk or high challenge, or pvp or any other form of gaming is for everyone. I can understand why people would not want such game mechanics, what I can't understand is people ignoring the quite fundamental reasons why people would enjoy such systems and instead try and hypothesise reasons which essentially seek to belittle people who enjoy said systems.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
In a game without penalty, you end up thinking less, charging mobs repeatedly if you win great, if not you jump straight back in. It gets meh very quickly.
With a death penalty you find yourself calculating odds, strategising at all times and gaining a sense of danger and when you succeed, getting a much fuller sense of achievement.
But to re-iterate the game has to be designed around it, it wouldn't work so well in a game like WoW.
Yeah I know about those theories, had them talked on my University. I agree, but fortunatelly game is not work and I don't think you can copy same or even very similar responses between work & gameplay. One you do because you have to (at least most ppl do) and second is willing activity (unless you addicted).
Anyway, this can be discussed what make better players what worse.
I don't care though. If there is no risk for me there is no fun OR it stop becoming fun very quickly.
That's why I prefer and advocate more risks in game. I actually like more challange as well, but if there is no risk then challenge only mean frustration and boring. Just feel better if I "achievee" something if there is risk involved.
Now there is other thing to make risk (penalty) not too harsh, and not too small.
I f.e. don't like ffa full loot usually or loong times of trying to recover gear from corpse, but dying and suffering no consequences(as losing bit of gold on repairs for me is no consequence at all) like in most mmorpg's is mind-boggling and boring also