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What is skill?
fenistil
Member Posts: 3,005
There are dozens upon dozens of threads about difficulty. What is difficult and / or what is challenging. Usually sooner or later, word "skill" is written.
I would like to ask what do you think this "skill" is?
Some people say that games that games that need most "skill" are those fast, e-sport games like "Starcraft 2" or "Counter Strike". Usually it is coupled with saying that what is NOT "hard", "challangin" cause it does not require "skill".
So does game need to be fast and twitch-based to be challanging, cause of "skill" requirement?
I sometimes wonder are we faced, between:
a) faceroll easy gaming
or
b) games that have difficulty based on reflexes as biggest factor?
Are those really only two choices?
Two questions:
1. So what is this mystical "skill"?
2. Does game in order to be challanging need to require this "skill" ?
Comments
Skill = Experience + rote memorisation of activities + fast reactions + good emotional control + focus + game knowledge + good tool knowledge (keyboard,mouse/macros) + intelligence + determination + ability to touch type. Good starter for 10
+ willingness to learn, + never being satisfied with performance
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
The ability to do something well; expertise.
A particular ability.
At least according to the dictionary.
- The ability to do something well; expertise
- a particular ability
edit - my copy and paste didn't work.
I self identify as a monkey.
Skill is how good are you in X game, that is why everyone have more or less skill in different game tipes, when you play good and with efficience almost without any pain its because you are eager to that game and his playstile, otherwise in other games you need to play over and over to get the proper skill in time, and finally there are those games were you suck hard everytime and you dont know why "because of the lack of skill but inside your mind you refuse to think such idea and just evade the games that you cant master
" well, thats more or less my oppinion.
No, of course not.
There are D&D tournements, still, that do not involve sleight-of-hand or twitch ability. The rules for winning probably differ greatly, but most are based on the contestants ability to successfully complete a quest (mini-campaign) and obtain character experience and wealth in the process.
Skill can be any or all of the following:
1) Assessing situations and paying attention to details
2) Combat tactics and strategies
3) Stealth maneuvers (hiding, subterfuge, impersonation, etc.)
4) Political skills (diplomacy, eloquence)
5) Leadership or role assignment skills
There are probably many more. The answer you would get from most MMO players, however, would probably be related to knowing the game rules intimately, knowing how to level fast, how to exploit unintended features, and how to beat other players when they are in disadvantageous situations. I guess it depends on which genre you are targetting.
I would say a skilled player performs better than one with less skill given the same situation or resources.
If a game doesn't require any or very much skill, then it probably isn't challenging. If all a game required was tapping 1 2 3 on the keyboard over and over and eventually you hit maximum level/rank/whatever, then I would say it is not a challenging game and does not require skill. If a game takes forethought, planning, tactics, and solid timely decision making, then it probably is more challenging and skilled players will do better here.
There is something to be said for a sense of accomplishment. That "against all odds i overcame" feeling. When you pull of something extremely difficult, you feel good. A game where you just yawn while pressing 1 2 3 doesn't have as much of this, I'd say.
A myth dreamed up by people who want to be able to pretend that playing games is on a fundamental level a more worthwhile activity than watching television or movies, or reading a book, when the only real difference is that it is more likely to give you carpal tunnel.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
Playing games can be more engaging, or challenging. Worthwhile though, is obviously a matter of opinion, since they are all leisure entertainment activities after all.
Really? Flight simulators for pilots and astronauts are useless? Wonder why they spend millions of dollars on them...
Just because the games you want to play fit into the "mindless entertainment" package does not mean that is what all gamers want.
I (try to) play MMOs because I'm hoping for something more than mindless.
Flight sims explicitly made to train pilots and astronauts aren't games, even if some people choose to treat them as such. Game is not a synonym for "any software product that has the theoretical capacity to be enjoyable." And I didn't say anything about mindless entertainment. Just because something doesn't require skill doesn't mean it is mindless.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
Skill:
1) The ability to stay awake while hitting a couple hot keys 14 kajillion times during the process of trying to advance.
2) The ability to have a server-based RNG spit out a favorable result.
3) The ability to locate someone who's already done 1) and 2), and who now has their account for sale.
Honest.
But seriously, I might define skill as "The ability to analyze a situation and possible options, coupled with the ability to effectively carry out the determined course of action, within a provided span of time". Or something like that.
The reason "Skill" is so rare in MMO's pretty much boils down the enemy AI (or lack thereof). Stupid, predictable opponents require less skill. But also less server power, and less player ambition, which is why it's popular.
A Modest Proposal for MMORPGs:
That the means of progression would not be mutually exclusive from the means of enjoyment.
Withat least one key difference - you help determine what happens in the game. Which honestly, can make all the difference in the world.
A Modest Proposal for MMORPGs:
That the means of progression would not be mutually exclusive from the means of enjoyment.
Which is why I prefer to fight a thinking human opponent
Granted some of those are still stupid and predictable though.
I don't disagree that there are differences in terms of the fun level that can be offered. Games, when done really well, are a more complete form of entertainment than television, movies, or books. But that is still ultimately what they are, entertainment. Having a higher kill/death ratio than the next guy doesn't mean you are "skilled," any more than getting really good at hitting the play button at the exact right time to hit the end of the commercials on your DVR makes you skilled.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
skill: the reason you're good at what you're good at.
luck: the reason others are good at what they're good at.
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Dwight D Eisenhower
My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.
Henry Rollins
I would think those are examples of a skill to be honest heh. Better skill at a game for the first, and quicker reaction skill for the second
Yes, flight simulators are games. If you knew more about why animals (people included) play, you would understand that a simulator is the epitome of what makes a game. MMOs were, originally, roleplaying simulations. Go take a look at your game collection, and for each game, ask the question "what does this game have in common with real life puzzles or problems?" I think you'll be suprised.
The rest of your semantics arguments are completely uninteresting. Mindless to me means failing to require skill. I can use that definition, it's a perfectly reasonable one. But go ahead and try to tell me why I can't use it... as I'm sure you will.
People who talk about having "skill" in video games just remind me of this guy: http://random-murmurings.typepad.com/random_murmurings/2008/06/make-love-not-w.html
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
By those semantics though, there are billions of "skills"
Hitting the button at the right time between commercials is a "skill" .. is it as important as being able to type 100 words a minute? no .. probably not, but it's still a skill that some people can do and other people can't.
I want something that is more challenging than what I have found in most MMOs. That doesn't mean I want to be able to fly an F-14 into enemy territory to deliver a payload, but it does mean I want it to matter less what kind of gear I am wearing and more about whether I am able to stay out of fire.
Now, staying out of fire doesn't require a lot of skill either, but it is a skill. So maybe what I mean is I want an MMO that implores more skills (plural)? But while they are at it, I would also prefer that the new skills be harder than staying out of fire.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Problem with skill in mmorpgs stems from the rpg factor, In the past rpgs have relied on dice rolls and "stats that influence chance" as their main mechanic rather than human reaction time. (which btw leaves people hostage to their "human skill cap" creating to some disposition to how well you can do in a game.)
The exception to dice roll rpgs is along the lines of the zelda series and alike, but that would be push boundries into adventure games imo.
Of course the fps gene is a different story also, players relying on their fast reasoning skills and twitch moments determine most to the outcomes.
So when you try to bring these 'popular' genes together in a mmorpg for an "awesome" game experience its no wonder you get this massive disconnect and division between players.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
So because it is a video game, there can't be any real skills involved?
What would you say it is that sets video games apart from everything else that requires skills? Your mindset, perhaps?
Games are no different than sports - it can be a form of contest with a certain rulesets. Thus to be victorious within the confine of those rules, it requires "skills" ie, knowledge and competence in the game.
To say it is a myth just because it is not physical or yield monetary rewards or whatever is quite absurd. By yout definition then chess will also be define as a myth and is not as worthwhile as watching TV, which is absolutely not true. One can possibly learn more of anything from active involvement than passive observation.
Active involvement in any game allows the player to learn and practice critical thinking and situation assessment - these 2 are probably the 2 most important skills that is frequently used in real life. Without those 2 skills there is really no different in the employer in hiring a monkey or buying a robot to do your job instead of you, lol
There are plenty of flight simulators for the PC. Pretty much all of them are for entertainment ONLY even though some of them could potentially be used for training. The most realistic ones require far more skill than the average game and the learning curve is steep as a cliff. There's a reason it isn't a very popular gaming genre.
However, I find that it's a different type of skill needed than say Starcraft or whatever is the first person shooter of choice for the month. I have 26 years of experience with the flight sim genre (all the way back to the C64), yet I'm pretty darn mediocre when it comes to RTS and FPS games. Heck, after 12 years of playing MMOs, I don't feel I'm overly good at those either. Perhaps I'm just a natural talent when it comes to flight sims or perhaps it's because flight sims always seem to inspire me to learn more and become better, whereas RTS/FPS/MMO is something I do to chill out and forget the stress that is called Real Life(tm).
Flight simming did help me get a driver's license much faster than anybody I know though
I'm a big ol' fluffy carewolf. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
skill
noun /skil/
skills, plural
The ability to do something well; expertise
- difficult work, taking great skill
A particular ability
- the basic skills of cooking
My opinion on the meaning of skill in a game is Knowledge (of the game or element of it being performed) & ability to play/make use of the knowledge (which is largely dictated by the User Interface and the Players ability to use the UI). Obviously, different people will have different perspectives on what constitutes 'skill' (ie. Twitch [twitch skills] gamers vs. RTS [strategy] gamers vs. Coop [teamwork] Gamers vs. PvP [attacks & counters/etc.] players).
The word does seem to get used in a general & vague manner too often (which actually annoys readers because it doesn't, typically, communicate the meaning of whats trying to be said and ends up just being ignored as gibberish/ranting/spam).
As it stands now I think MMORPGs (the majority of which are hotkey based and require more reliance on gear and time than actual "skill" requirements) require far less skill than say a RTS, Fighting Game, or Shooter. They definitely require far less "Twitch" skill, but even on the strategy portion I think they take far less brain power to play at a professional level than the above genres. Other games such as board games like Chess, turn based strategy games, word games, etc. also require far more skill than MMORPGs, even though they require no twitch skill to speak of.
So I find it a bit hilarious when people talk about how much skill in involved at playing MMORPGs in the end game, when in reality almost any player with enough time to invest and determination on getting the gear required to play them effectively could easily play them at a professional level, whereas the above genres of games no amount of time investment is going to let you play at the end game professional level if you simply don't have enough natural talent in those games.
Someone could study Chess for years and make every effort to be the best player they can possibly be and not become a grandmaster simply because they aren't good at thinking ahead and logically. Someone could practice playing Street Fighter for years and years and read up on every little fact, watch matches, etc., but not be able to effectively execute moves properly. Most MMORPGs just don't have this kind of gap, it's merely how much time you want to invest and how much effort you want to put into learning the game.
And keep in mind I'm saying this as an end game oriented hardcore power gamer who loves MMOs too.
I think it is a bit simplistic to say MMORPG requires "less" skill.
More fair to say it require more diverse set of skills but not as specialised in either reaction or reasoning.
MMORPG do however have a set of skill that is unique to MMORPG that is not used in FPS or chess, but is far more practical - this is how to get ahead in an environment where you have associate with other people and also commerce skills. Those you generally won't find in other games.
Even in a game such as WoW I'm sure a lot of you have to learn when to buy things at AH at the best price, learn to research what is the best gear and where to get it (again, research is a commercial skill too) or group with other people without being label a tool and getting kicked.