So in the end, I just have to wonder what the point of the game is. It strives to be both an MMORPG and an SPRPG, but I really think it would have been better just concentrating on one thing. Make an excellent SPRPG or make an excellent MMORPG. Trying to smash them together just causes too many problems.
The point of the game is to make of it what you want. All the starter worlds will feel much more like a SPG with grouping possible. I think there are only 2 Heroic quests on each starter planet plus the flashpoint when you leave. But on your home worlds, there are a lot of Heroic quests to do as a MMO.
The problem seems to be this for some. Starter world is 60% class story with only 2 classes on the planet. Very SPG and not much MMO. The Home world is 40% class quest and 60% MMO, so it is a bit more group oriented. But the quests are all over the place (at least on Drumund Kass) so you don't see an overall story where everyone in the faction is involved.
Now I don't know about all the planets, just reached level 20 today. But Balmorra has been all about the war effort. So your class story plays a small part with the planet war effort taking center stage. Lot's of heroic areas and quests mixed in with the solo quests. So playing as my SI, I felt like a part of something larger with grouping up for a single purpose. While at the same time, feeling very much like a sith. And that I am the power here and life and death hinges on my decisions.
So again I will say you make of the game what you want. If you hate it, nothing will be right. If you blindly love it, nothing will be wrong. But if you play it for what it is, you can overlook what may be an issue and just have fun playing a great MMORPG with others. RPG being the main focus and the MMO being something that just happens. Up till end game, then we will see what happens when we get there.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them? R.A.Salvatore
You must be playing a different game? The quest that are kill 10 X are optional, the quest you recieve from npc's rarely force you to do those type of quests.
They are optional, but if you don't do them your level will lag behind and you will be too weak to do the class quests on your own.
This is your choice to play the game as a SPRPG The option to join other players in game is still there.
Yes, you could definitely be grouped with a friend while doing your quests, but it's not that simple.
Most people want to do what benefits them the most. For example, if you finished a quest to kill 10 smugglers, then you probably won't want to do it again. You won't get rewarded, there really is no point. So when someone asks you to group with them so they can do their quest (that you already completed), it feels like you're doing a chore.
So the whole quest paradigm discourages grouping. If you want proof just look at the zounds of other games that use this paradigm. I can't count how many times I have not grouped with someone because they weren't on the same quests as me. You can only really group if you happen to be on the same exact quests...and this happens infrequently unless you plan it out with someone.
My problem is that SWTOR does nothing to fix this and it really takes it to an extreme. I would say it has a very strong emphasis on quests, and quests are essentially what makes all these games feel more single player.
I find this hard to believe.
A chore to help others out in a game? Really? Maybe the real issue is not the game providing the MMO element, more like the player like yourself.
If I play Sith/Empire, would I not be rather out of character if I helped someone if there was nothing in it for me?
But then again, the game do allow for Empire characters to play Light Side...
But the man is right. The game plays like a great singleplayer game with multiplayer tagged on for it to fit the MMO label. (And of course some "End Game Content" to keep you paying once you get through the Single Player Stories.)
Another thing that killed the 'MMO' feel for me,which is kind of like the red walls,is that I was running into a border area of the map.A 'restricted' area which would kill you over time if you didnt get back 'into bounds'.It really kills the exploration feel IMO,here you have a wide open,what looks like a unrestricted path that may lead you to another zone or something,but no,just a "you've gone to far! get back before you mysteriously die!" invisible boundary...
they could atleast used a mountain range as a border or something..
Wow.. I didn't come upon that in my travels (only got to 14) but that is just plain horrible. If there's a place you don't want someone to go.. put a wall up, or a hill you can't climb. That is just poor level design period.
You must be playing a different game? The quest that are kill 10 X are optional, the quest you recieve from npc's rarely force you to do those type of quests.
They are optional, but if you don't do them your level will lag behind and you will be too weak to do the class quests on your own.
For me, most of these kill this and that quests are accomplished while doing the actual delivery/destory this and that quests. They seem to flow together well, unless you really like dodging enemies and being cloaked
So I finally got a chance to play SWTOR and I've pretty much enjoyed it so far. I've played Jedi Knight to the point where I got off the starter world and did a few things on Coruscant. It's fun, I might buy it, but I do have one large issue with the game that is keeping me from going forward with the purchase.
Specifically, SWTOR IMO is essentially a hybrid of an SPRPG like KOTOR and a themepark MMORPG like WoW. The problem is that these two concepts (SPRPG and MMORPG) seem to constantly trip over each other in gameplay. Resulting in something where the SPRPG portion and MMORPG portion of the game are both worse off because of each other.
For example, all of the quests I have received have a nice dialogue/story segment like an SPRPG, but the actual actions of the quest conform to the standard themepark "kill 10 rats" model. It's so cliche at this point that it's just uninteresting to me. I feel like if the game were an actual SPRPG the quests would be much more fun to do. SPRPGs generally are much better at providing more interesting quest objectives because they aren't constrained by a shared world.
Another example of this is how you see multitudes of other players walking around with your identical companion, killing the same boss that you did 2 minutes ago. It just makes the whole thing feel artificial...once again, an SPRPG would be much more immersive in this respect. And companions...you get to have a companion so the game can play more like an SPRPG, but you are limited to one. One of the great things about SPRPGs is watching the character development between your companions...this is crippled because fo the MMORPG side of this game.
And on the other side of the coin, the MMORPG portion of this game is constantly hampered by its SPRPG side as well. For example, you constantly see mysterious "red walls" that you can't enter because it's for a specific class quest that you can't participate on (unless you are with a player on the quest).
So in the end, I just have to wonder what the point of the game is. It strives to be both an MMORPG and an SPRPG, but I really think it would have been better just concentrating on one thing. Make an excellent SPRPG or make an excellent MMORPG. Trying to smash them together just causes too many problems.
I think it's more like a themepark mmorpg completely, as it has all the themepark features, and on top of that the solo questing is just handled by a more sprpg style. Works wonders for me, even if there's no big consequences the quests feel a lot more fun to do when it feels like there's a purpose, and the cut scenes are a nice break between the standard questing.
I dont think either "side" hampers the other, you can do all the standard mmorpg stuff like elite quests, flashpoints, pvp etc without the story side really interfering, at least I feel that way, in fact the multiplayer dialogues gives nice touch to grouping. Though if someone does not like the story and dialogue side at all, then they should pass on the game alltogether, or just spam space till max level, wouldnt recommend that though.
Saying "Trying to smash them together just causes too many problems.!" feels a bit like your maybe trying to find problems with this system more than trying to enjoy it for what it is? I'd take a mmorpg with this kind of questing anyday over the wall of text model, though the GW2 system "just run around and participate when you see something going on" system propably is very good alternative for the walls of texts too, but since Bioware went this route, I dont cuss at them, I've enjoyed the experience very much and it never occured or felt to me like it was a bad thing.
Another thing that killed the 'MMO' feel for me,which is kind of like the red walls,is that I was running into a border area of the map.A 'restricted' area which would kill you over time if you didnt get back 'into bounds'.It really kills the exploration feel IMO,here you have a wide open,what looks like a unrestricted path that may lead you to another zone or something,but no,just a "you've gone to far! get back before you mysteriously die!" invisible boundary...
they could atleast used a mountain range as a border or something..
Wow.. I didn't come upon that in my travels (only got to 14) but that is just plain horrible. If there's a place you don't want someone to go.. put a wall up, or a hill you can't climb. That is just poor level design period.
Games have always boundaries, I dont feel it any more better or immersive if the whole world is surrounded by mountains leaving you in the big crater in middle just so you uhm, dont feel like the game has boundaries? Doesent work for me, you always notice which mountain is there to block you since there's nothing behind, or which sea is too deep to swim since there's nothing behind. TOR blocks most of these boundaries with mountains or objects that I've encountered but I once stumbled on the warning too, wasnt a big deal if you are aware of being in a game.
Not enough character optomization. Its going to be a gear grind at the highest levels. I seemed to play for the story only and wanted to see the next cut scene, etc. I played it like a single player RPG and not an MMO. I was torn on Saturday night to either stop playing at level 20 or keep going. If I ever got to the end of the story this weekend in Beta testing, I probably wouldn't buy it.
I kept sitting at my computer thinking, if this game was released a single player RPG with Skyrim graphics and optomization abilities it would be the game of the decade probably.
Not having the ability to really choose the type of sidekick hurts a lot. Heck, even LOTRO gives you a choice of 4 or 5 different sidekicks to choose from. But I HATE games where all your stuff buffs come from your items, can't stand it. If I want to make a smuggler with 0 cunning to start out, I should be able to do it. The skill trees are also ick to me, not really anything new or different.
I'll probably play it just for the story line so definitely a PvE story, and when I hit 50, put it on the shelf and wait for an expansion and then come back to it. That's what I did with LOTRO and Rift. These aren't MMO's, they are single player RPG's with lots of players in your world with blue names over their heads.
My biggest issue so far with SWTOR is that the character creation is awful. I really think in 2011 we should be able to do more when we initially create our character. I don't like seeing characters look so similar.
Ok that is not my biggest beef ....
dumbing down quests already by geting rid of cc/interrupt from mobs is very bad
SWTOR IMO is essentially a hybrid of an SPRPG like KOTOR and a themepark MMORPG like WoW. The problem is that these two concepts (SPRPG and MMORPG) seem to constantly trip over each other in gameplay. Resulting in something where the SPRPG portion and MMORPG portion of the game are both worse off because of each other.
This is exactly what i was saying months ago, AoC already proved this doesn't work.
SWTOR IMO is essentially a hybrid of an SPRPG like KOTOR and a themepark MMORPG like WoW. The problem is that these two concepts (SPRPG and MMORPG) seem to constantly trip over each other in gameplay. Resulting in something where the SPRPG portion and MMORPG portion of the game are both worse off because of each other.
This is exactly what i was saying months ago, AoC already proved this doesn't work.
This game is certainly not AoC, and your predictions won't work on us. I didn't get this tripping feeling between the solo play and the group play. Some people may have to adjust to the style of the game.
I still have it on order, over the 2 beta weekends, I played 3 of the sith side classes, the warrior, Inq, and BH. I would of liked to do all 4, but I had stuff going on half of both weekends or so.
I have not researched it, but it seems 2 classes start on the Hut planet, the other 2 on the Sith tomb planet...Think its Hutta and forget the other planets name. So 2 starting areas, I don't typically play a lot of alting, so it will not bother me, but when I played the Inq. and the warrior in comparisson, it seemed like a lot of the story was even the same, with minor twists to make it different. It felt a little lazy...That being said, I would say if you compare it to other themeparks that are railed, it is still better, due to some change.
I was not able to get any characters to 20+, where I have heard different opinions, some say the game is still railed, some say it opens up and you can explore... So I am hoping it is the later on that part.
I will most likely keep my order, as I am not playing anything atm, and nothing new is coming out for a while. So if I get 2-3 months out of it, I guess I can say I got my moneys worth....If I get more than that, then i will be pleasantly suprised.
I also agree with the srpg, and mmorpg merge stuff, it is a pain meshing quests with people, what is someones story, and isn't, who can go where....It is very odd. I will probably get use to it, but for now it is a pain.
I actually thought the "kill ten rats" thing was really ok, most quests actually involved more general actions, yes you usually ended up killing things but well, that's kinda the point.
I did have a similar problem when I was doing a lot of PvP and then tried to get back to my quests, it's the same problem games like Skyrim or Oblivion suffer from a bit: you kinda lose track of the big lines when you're doing all the surrounding things, it makes the story a bit less powerful.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
I actually thought the "kill ten rats" thing was really ok, most quests actually involved more general actions, yes you usually ended up killing things but well, that's kinda the point.
I did have a similar problem when I was doing a lot of PvP and then tried to get back to my quests, it's the same problem games like Skyrim or Oblivion suffer from a bit: you kinda lose track of the big lines when you're doing all the surrounding things, it makes the story a bit less powerful.
I agree, and this is actually one of the good things that WoW Cata did. It reworked the quests so that you generally worked one big quest line at a time and didn't jump around between 3 and 4. It made the story much more memorable and impactful.
Granted, it did this at the cost of making the game more single player.
I realy had to react to this thread and say MHO about this topic
some people realy dont know what they want do they??......let me explain this:
When playing a mmorpg people find it hard work to find groups (if the game doesnt do it for that by giving players a lfg TOOL) and are constantly whining about that.
SO, most mmorpg players play alone......really??, yeah....you try to group in an mmorpg with people you dont know.....try it befour you say this aint true..RLY!
So devs make PARTS in their game that is singleplayer and sets focus to storytelling (like all REAL rpg player likes btw) and some people need to bash on the SPlayer content....if you dont like it....just cut the scenes then....np right?
mmorpg players brought this single player back into mmoRPG's......why?......because you people dont like grouping, simple.
The only way people will group are irl friends and guildmembers.
You can say i am full of it all you want......but when games have the option to turn off the chat window mean that people WANT to be left alone.....like i say'd, IMHO i think you all asked for the singleplayer parts in mmo's yourself......didn't you??
hehe
my 2 copperz
Well I had to reply to this one :-)))
Please note I did not play TOR, just read comments, so I am not commenting on the particular game, just the grouping in general that you mentioned.
Most MMORPGs out there do not feature much group content other than grouping for quests/missions. Their story focuses on the single hero, the player.
There is no group story in themeparks generaly. You cannot make a name for your corp/guild/clan other than PvP. Even those games featureing RvR do not reward effective groups.
To make a quest hard so that it requires a group is one thing. To make a quest that requires AND rewards a guild is another. PUGs do not equal grouping in all those senses.
So I finally got a chance to play SWTOR and I've pretty much enjoyed it so far. I've played Jedi Knight to the point where I got off the starter world and did a few things on Coruscant. It's fun, I might buy it, but I do have one large issue with the game that is keeping me from going forward with the purchase.
Specifically, SWTOR IMO is essentially a hybrid of an SPRPG like KOTOR and a themepark MMORPG like WoW. The problem is that these two concepts (SPRPG and MMORPG) seem to constantly trip over each other in gameplay. Resulting in something where the SPRPG portion and MMORPG portion of the game are both worse off because of each other.
For example, all of the quests I have received have a nice dialogue/story segment like an SPRPG, but the actual actions of the quest conform to the standard themepark "kill 10 rats" model. It's so cliche at this point that it's just uninteresting to me. I feel like if the game were an actual SPRPG the quests would be much more fun to do. SPRPGs generally are much better at providing more interesting quest objectives because they aren't constrained by a shared world.
Another example of this is how you see multitudes of other players walking around with your identical companion, killing the same boss that you did 2 minutes ago. It just makes the whole thing feel artificial...once again, an SPRPG would be much more immersive in this respect. And companions...you get to have a companion so the game can play more like an SPRPG, but you are limited to one. One of the great things about SPRPGs is watching the character development between your companions...this is crippled because fo the MMORPG side of this game.
And on the other side of the coin, the MMORPG portion of this game is constantly hampered by its SPRPG side as well. For example, you constantly see mysterious "red walls" that you can't enter because it's for a specific class quest that you can't participate on (unless you are with a player on the quest).
So in the end, I just have to wonder what the point of the game is. It strives to be both an MMORPG and an SPRPG, but I really think it would have been better just concentrating on one thing. Make an excellent SPRPG or make an excellent MMORPG. Trying to smash them together just causes too many problems.
These are the things that bugged me as well. I was very happy to listen to the dialogue and make my response choices, but when it came to going out and killing off the usual mobs, I was bored. And seeing everyone wandering around looking similar with the same companions just added to my boredom. It's like I only felt immersed during cutscenes, which certainly isn't something I expected!
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
It seems some people don't understand the most basic concepts of game design. I see this kind of nonsense thrown around a lot so I guess it needs explaining.
Players are only going to do what they are rewarded for.
Let me rephrase that.
Humans are only going to do what they are rewarded for. They will take the path of least resistance. It is the responsibility of the designer to make sure the features of the game encourage grouping. The quest system, as has been explained in this thread, strongly discourages grouping by making the rewards for grouping significantly less than soloing if you are not on the very same quest.
Including elite dungeons and enemies that require grouping is "forcing" the player to group. This makes grouping feel tedious because you have to stop and find a group in order to progress. It's an artificial solution. Players have to be influenced such that they want to work with other players and will do so naturally, not because there is a wall in front of them that bars passage unless they have a party.
I could go on forever about this subject, but the bottom line is that player behavior is determined by the game's design. If players aren't grouping, it's the designers' fault, not the players.
"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." -Dr. Seuss
I played the game for about 10 hours during the beta as a trooper and I got sucked into the story. Every mission I did and the choices I made felt like I made a difference. Even though the world around me didn't change (since it's an MMO) I still had my story.
Heh... except the choices really didn't make a difference
It seems some people don't understand the most basic concepts of game design. I see this kind of nonsense thrown around a lot so I guess it needs explaining.
Players are only going to do what they are rewarded for.
Let me rephrase that.
Humans are only going to do what they are rewarded for. They will take the path of least resistance. It is the responsibility of the designer to make sure the features of the game encourage grouping. The quest system, as has been explained in this thread, strongly discourages grouping by making the rewards for grouping significantly less than soloing if you are not on the very same quest.
Including elite dungeons and enemies that require grouping is "forcing" the player to group. This makes grouping feel tedious because you have to stop and find a group in order to progress. It's an artificial solution. Players have to be influenced such that they want to work with other players and will do so naturally, not because there is a wall in front of them that bars passage unless they have a party.
I could go on forever about this subject, but the bottom line is that player behavior is determined by the game's design. If players aren't grouping, it's the designers' fault, not the players.
This idea is fundamentally flawed. Let me explain
Say if the game designers were to give insentives to group (which they do, more on this further down) say for example, more EXP. Then players will feel like they have to group just to get that EXP boost, or they will fall behind everyone else playing. Another example? lets say it was loot. Again, players will feel forced to do this in order to get the best loot. The designers intentionally didnt want to reward this behavior because it would make grouping feel required.
Bottom line: Nothing will make the player like grouping if they dont like it already. They also have to want to do it order for them to like it.
Now on to the rest of the post. They do give incentives to grouping. "What is that?"you might ask. Ever noticed the little purple icon while grouped in coversations with a number next to it? Those, my friend, are what Bioware calls "Social Points" These points can only be gained while grouped (hence incentive) and they allow you to earn ranks which allow you to have special titles, buy special equipment, so on and so far.
Now with that being said, I would like to add my 2 cents about these kind of posts, in general, not spsecifically this one. I have read literally hundreds of threads on here, swtor.com, gamespot, and have only found maybe 5 valid points. Let me repeat that. Hundreds of threads. 5 vaild points. I'm not even exaggerating, Alot of post make quite a few points to argue within them, so you can imagine thats quite a few altogether. The thing is, all these posts have a fundametally flawed approach to thinking when it comes to critizing the game. From the post above and reading my counter-argument, you can see how it, as have many others, failed. I'm no stranger to critique of a game. I read extensively, sometimes I read more than I play the game. I've been playing MMOs for almost 10 years now, and gaming since I was a wee lad. I've played quite a few games in that time, and have come to gather a nice little haul of experience.
That being said, at the end of the day, it's really how the person feels about the game. Its their opinion, which is the great thing about opinions. But for the love of god, stop making posts like these, as they are pretty much lies, because within them are just entire walls of misinformation, which, while making an entertaining read, are bad all around.
I played the game for about 10 hours during the beta as a trooper and I got sucked into the story. Every mission I did and the choices I made felt like I made a difference. Even though the world around me didn't change (since it's an MMO) I still had my story.
Heh... except the choices really didn't make a difference
Which is exactly what he said in his post, if you bothered to read it. Reading comprehension fail. Ow, my head.
So I finally got a chance to play SWTOR and I've pretty much enjoyed it so far. I've played Jedi Knight to the point where I got off the starter world and did a few things on Coruscant. It's fun, I might buy it, but I do have one large issue with the game that is keeping me from going forward with the purchase.
I played neither Knight nor Warrior. Well, that's not true. I played a Warrior through 3 and deleted him. I did play Inq, Con, Smug, and Agent through 10-11. I played Hunter and Trooper 7-8. I even did replay rerolls on Inq, Agent and Smug. I did the typical thing I do during a beta, play through that "first bit" - to get an idea/feel for the different classes. It is interesting just how different the play works out for them - not balanced in the least - which some might disapprove of, but I thought it added some flavor...kind of.
Originally posted by Creslin321
Specifically, SWTOR IMO is essentially a hybrid of an SPRPG like KOTOR and a themepark MMORPG like WoW. The problem is that these two concepts (SPRPG and MMORPG) seem to constantly trip over each other in gameplay. Resulting in something where the SPRPG portion and MMORPG portion of the game are both worse off because of each other.
Outside of "fighting" other players over quest objectives, I did not feel like I was playing a MMORPG in the least. There was nothing in the level range that I played that required any interaction with other players. Everything was easy before getting the companion, and then after that - it was painfully easy.
Other people simply served to break the immersion that the SPRPG aspect of the game was attempting to build.
Originally posted by Creslin321
For example, all of the quests I have received have a nice dialogue/story segment like an SPRPG, but the actual actions of the quest conform to the standard themepark "kill 10 rats" model. It's so cliche at this point that it's just uninteresting to me. I feel like if the game were an actual SPRPG the quests would be much more fun to do. SPRPGs generally are much better at providing more interesting quest objectives because they aren't constrained by a shared world.
Kill X of Y and Collect X of Y are pretty much themepark standards. Even if it is just a case of killing one thing or collecting one thing, it's basically what you're going to be doing in a themepark. It is kind of where the "MMO" element ruined the "SP" element, lol - in a different way - having to "stand in line" to do the X of Y's.
I suppose the issue that made it so tedious for me was how easy it was to do both. It was mindless mashing.
Originally posted by Creslin321
Another example of this is how you see multitudes of other players walking around with your identical companion, killing the same boss that you did 2 minutes ago. It just makes the whole thing feel artificial...once again, an SPRPG would be much more immersive in this respect. And companions...you get to have a companion so the game can play more like an SPRPG, but you are limited to one. One of the great things about SPRPGs is watching the character development between your companions...this is crippled because fo the MMORPG side of this game.
Not only people running around with near identical companions, but people running around near identical themselves. No doubt it gets better once you get off of the starter planet - but it still has that "new car" thing to it. You know how it is, you buy a new car - and - suddenly you see everybody driving the same thing. You never noticed that there were as many of the same vehicle out there - not until you have one yourself, lol. Tada, there it is.
But with the way the starter planets are setup - two classes - well, for those first 10-11 levels; yep - everybody is pretty much looking identical and running around with identical companions.
Again, this is a way that it felt like trying to be a "MMO" ruined what could have been a perfectly good "SP" experience.
Some companions got a "Customization" - but you could not preview it with the preview being broken. Some companions did not have that customization option.
The lack of overall customization options was made worse by including companions - instead of just you looking like everybody else, it's you and you're buddy looking like everybody else.
Originally posted by Creslin321
And on the other side of the coin, the MMORPG portion of this game is constantly hampered by its SPRPG side as well. For example, you constantly see mysterious "red walls" that you can't enter because it's for a specific class quest that you can't participate on (unless you are with a player on the quest).
It is kind of funny, I appreciate what they were doing with trying to make the instances appear seamless. No need to click a door and watch a loading screen - you just walk right into your instance. Though it needs some work, I do appreciate what they are trying to do there.
But it was funny watching people disappear into them. It was funny standing just inside and watching people walk in only to disappear.
As for the "red walls" - it was not only a case of seeing them for areas for other classes, but they were also areas you might have been but cannot return until sent back there again. You've got your room at Nem'ro's palace, but you can only go there when sent there. With some instances, when you left - you ended up facing that "red wall" for the area you just left.
Have to say, I would have preferred that they did not use the "green walls" or "red walls" for it. For the "green" areas, they could have simply left it appearing as open. For the "red" areas, they could have simply put a wall there. I think that would solve the issue.
Originally posted by Creslin321
So in the end, I just have to wonder what the point of the game is. It strives to be both an MMORPG and an SPRPG, but I really think it would have been better just concentrating on one thing. Make an excellent SPRPG or make an excellent MMORPG. Trying to smash them together just causes too many problems.
I think this could have been an awesome SPRPG. Outside of "group PvP" and "dungeons" - basically game lobby aspects . . . I'm not sure in the limited experience I had, what would make this a MMORPG at all. Yep, could have been a great SPRPG with that multiplayer game lobby for online play for things like PvP and dungeons for those that wanted it. Heck, they could have worked it out so you could run multiple companions for singleplayer dungeons, etc.
Okay, with that being said though - I'll add my own biggest issue(s) with the game.
First, in regard to cutscenes. Okay, obviously I have a different defintion of what a cutscene is than everybody else. A cutscene is an interruption in gameplay - where you simply watch. The "cutscenes" in SWTOR are interactive scenes. They're not cutscenes. I spent almost two weeks discussing Cutscenes/VOs - trying to get more info out of people - and nobody mentioned that they were interactive scenes. Even as I stated that I wanted to play...not watch... nobody stated they were interactive. Tada, you're playing still. I actually found those interactive scenes to be awesome - one of the best aspects of the game...
...with a couple of issues.
Meaningless choices. You could be the nice guy or the ass in one selection, and it did not change your choices for the next selection. You could finish a series and it would not affect your next series. You may not notice this unless you "replay" or play another class on the same starting planet. The choices appear only to be there in some cases to change affection with the companion or for your light/dark choices when those pop up.
I'm not an aural learner. Way back in school, I learned more from reading/doing than I did from listening. So while I know that I had a great time with some of the dialogues, for the life of me - I cannot remember what actually took place. I just know I had fun...but not exactly why I had fun. For other games, I can recall quests/missions that I had fun...where I had to read the text. Some folks are aural learners and not readers, so no doubt they'll thoroughly enjoy what is offered.
Second, in regard to Light/Dark. Okay, so outside of requirements for gearing - does this actually do anything? Yep, I did the Dark Smuggler, Light Inquisitor, and the Light Agent. Nothing changed compared to being a Light Smuggler or Dark Agent. Have to say though, the Dark Smuggler was fun to play - was far more "EVIL" than anything I did while Empire. But it was only fun in the moment, it changed nothing about what happened after it.
Third, in regard to population. This was the one that pushed me away from looking around for something to pawn to buy the game. Basically, I noticed the following based on the number of people:
<200 and the game played awesome
200-300 and the game played fine
300-450 and I started to notice delays in conversations starting - you get to watch the . . . over and over
450-700 and I started having problems looting and the conversation delay grew worse
>700 and NPCs would not appear, as well as an increase of the problems of >300
Regardless of the population, my FPS was always in the 30s and my latency was always 32-41ms. So unless those meters are broken, the issue is obviously a server side issue. I would have to log out of the character and log back in to loot. I would get the outline of NPCs if I hovered over them - the blue glowy aura, so I just ignored that - as long as I knew about where they were standing.
On the server I was playing, the Republic Fleet only got around to 500-800. The Empire Fleet shot over 1500. Was definitely more noticeable on my Empire toons than on my Republic toons.
When those numbers got over 500, Alt-Tabbing became a trip. Could fix it by a log out/in though.
As a bonus, I had a dead orange pixel in the game right below the chat window. I played other games, no dead pixel. Went through and ran diagnostics for dead pixels, no dead pixel. I could resize the chat window to cover it up, and it would cover it up - however, if I did not do that - spin the camera, etc - that "dead pixel" was always on top of the background.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Originally posted by Abdar Originally posted by tank017
Another thing that killed the 'MMO' feel for me,which is kind of like the red walls,is that I was running into a border area of the map.A 'restricted' area which would kill you over time if you didnt get back 'into bounds'.It really kills the exploration feel IMO,here you have a wide open,what looks like a unrestricted path that may lead you to another zone or something,but no,just a "you've gone to far! get back before you mysteriously die!" invisible boundary... they could atleast used a mountain range as a border or something..
Wow.. I didn't come upon that in my travels (only got to 14) but that is just plain horrible. If there's a place you don't want someone to go.. put a wall up, or a hill you can't climb. That is just poor level design period. I ran across this on one of the beaches of Ord Mantell. I ran into the water, heading towards what looked like an island off in the distance. Just a few steps into the water and I got that message, even though I was just knee-deep in water.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Comments
The point of the game is to make of it what you want. All the starter worlds will feel much more like a SPG with grouping possible. I think there are only 2 Heroic quests on each starter planet plus the flashpoint when you leave. But on your home worlds, there are a lot of Heroic quests to do as a MMO.
The problem seems to be this for some. Starter world is 60% class story with only 2 classes on the planet. Very SPG and not much MMO. The Home world is 40% class quest and 60% MMO, so it is a bit more group oriented. But the quests are all over the place (at least on Drumund Kass) so you don't see an overall story where everyone in the faction is involved.
Now I don't know about all the planets, just reached level 20 today. But Balmorra has been all about the war effort. So your class story plays a small part with the planet war effort taking center stage. Lot's of heroic areas and quests mixed in with the solo quests. So playing as my SI, I felt like a part of something larger with grouping up for a single purpose. While at the same time, feeling very much like a sith. And that I am the power here and life and death hinges on my decisions.
So again I will say you make of the game what you want. If you hate it, nothing will be right. If you blindly love it, nothing will be wrong. But if you play it for what it is, you can overlook what may be an issue and just have fun playing a great MMORPG with others. RPG being the main focus and the MMO being something that just happens. Up till end game, then we will see what happens when we get there.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?
R.A.Salvatore
They are optional, but if you don't do them your level will lag behind and you will be too weak to do the class quests on your own.
If I play Sith/Empire, would I not be rather out of character if I helped someone if there was nothing in it for me?
But then again, the game do allow for Empire characters to play Light Side...
But the man is right. The game plays like a great singleplayer game with multiplayer tagged on for it to fit the MMO label. (And of course some "End Game Content" to keep you paying once you get through the Single Player Stories.)
Wow.. I didn't come upon that in my travels (only got to 14) but that is just plain horrible. If there's a place you don't want someone to go.. put a wall up, or a hill you can't climb. That is just poor level design period.
For me, most of these kill this and that quests are accomplished while doing the actual delivery/destory this and that quests. They seem to flow together well, unless you really like dodging enemies and being cloaked
I think it's more like a themepark mmorpg completely, as it has all the themepark features, and on top of that the solo questing is just handled by a more sprpg style. Works wonders for me, even if there's no big consequences the quests feel a lot more fun to do when it feels like there's a purpose, and the cut scenes are a nice break between the standard questing.
I dont think either "side" hampers the other, you can do all the standard mmorpg stuff like elite quests, flashpoints, pvp etc without the story side really interfering, at least I feel that way, in fact the multiplayer dialogues gives nice touch to grouping. Though if someone does not like the story and dialogue side at all, then they should pass on the game alltogether, or just spam space till max level, wouldnt recommend that though.
Saying "Trying to smash them together just causes too many problems.!" feels a bit like your maybe trying to find problems with this system more than trying to enjoy it for what it is? I'd take a mmorpg with this kind of questing anyday over the wall of text model, though the GW2 system "just run around and participate when you see something going on" system propably is very good alternative for the walls of texts too, but since Bioware went this route, I dont cuss at them, I've enjoyed the experience very much and it never occured or felt to me like it was a bad thing.
Games have always boundaries, I dont feel it any more better or immersive if the whole world is surrounded by mountains leaving you in the big crater in middle just so you uhm, dont feel like the game has boundaries? Doesent work for me, you always notice which mountain is there to block you since there's nothing behind, or which sea is too deep to swim since there's nothing behind. TOR blocks most of these boundaries with mountains or objects that I've encountered but I once stumbled on the warning too, wasnt a big deal if you are aware of being in a game.
Not enough character optomization. Its going to be a gear grind at the highest levels. I seemed to play for the story only and wanted to see the next cut scene, etc. I played it like a single player RPG and not an MMO. I was torn on Saturday night to either stop playing at level 20 or keep going. If I ever got to the end of the story this weekend in Beta testing, I probably wouldn't buy it.
I kept sitting at my computer thinking, if this game was released a single player RPG with Skyrim graphics and optomization abilities it would be the game of the decade probably.
Not having the ability to really choose the type of sidekick hurts a lot. Heck, even LOTRO gives you a choice of 4 or 5 different sidekicks to choose from. But I HATE games where all your stuff buffs come from your items, can't stand it. If I want to make a smuggler with 0 cunning to start out, I should be able to do it. The skill trees are also ick to me, not really anything new or different.
I'll probably play it just for the story line so definitely a PvE story, and when I hit 50, put it on the shelf and wait for an expansion and then come back to it. That's what I did with LOTRO and Rift. These aren't MMO's, they are single player RPG's with lots of players in your world with blue names over their heads.
My biggest issue so far with SWTOR is that the character creation is awful. I really think in 2011 we should be able to do more when we initially create our character. I don't like seeing characters look so similar.
Ok that is not my biggest beef ....
dumbing down quests already by geting rid of cc/interrupt from mobs is very bad
Money is the root of all evil.
This is exactly what i was saying months ago, AoC already proved this doesn't work.
This game is certainly not AoC, and your predictions won't work on us. I didn't get this tripping feeling between the solo play and the group play. Some people may have to adjust to the style of the game.
I still have it on order, over the 2 beta weekends, I played 3 of the sith side classes, the warrior, Inq, and BH. I would of liked to do all 4, but I had stuff going on half of both weekends or so.
I have not researched it, but it seems 2 classes start on the Hut planet, the other 2 on the Sith tomb planet...Think its Hutta and forget the other planets name. So 2 starting areas, I don't typically play a lot of alting, so it will not bother me, but when I played the Inq. and the warrior in comparisson, it seemed like a lot of the story was even the same, with minor twists to make it different. It felt a little lazy...That being said, I would say if you compare it to other themeparks that are railed, it is still better, due to some change.
I was not able to get any characters to 20+, where I have heard different opinions, some say the game is still railed, some say it opens up and you can explore... So I am hoping it is the later on that part.
I will most likely keep my order, as I am not playing anything atm, and nothing new is coming out for a while. So if I get 2-3 months out of it, I guess I can say I got my moneys worth....If I get more than that, then i will be pleasantly suprised.
I also agree with the srpg, and mmorpg merge stuff, it is a pain meshing quests with people, what is someones story, and isn't, who can go where....It is very odd. I will probably get use to it, but for now it is a pain.
I actually thought the "kill ten rats" thing was really ok, most quests actually involved more general actions, yes you usually ended up killing things but well, that's kinda the point.
I did have a similar problem when I was doing a lot of PvP and then tried to get back to my quests, it's the same problem games like Skyrim or Oblivion suffer from a bit: you kinda lose track of the big lines when you're doing all the surrounding things, it makes the story a bit less powerful.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
I agree, and this is actually one of the good things that WoW Cata did. It reworked the quests so that you generally worked one big quest line at a time and didn't jump around between 3 and 4. It made the story much more memorable and impactful.
Granted, it did this at the cost of making the game more single player.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Well I had to reply to this one :-)))
Please note I did not play TOR, just read comments, so I am not commenting on the particular game, just the grouping in general that you mentioned.
Most MMORPGs out there do not feature much group content other than grouping for quests/missions. Their story focuses on the single hero, the player.
There is no group story in themeparks generaly. You cannot make a name for your corp/guild/clan other than PvP. Even those games featureing RvR do not reward effective groups.
To make a quest hard so that it requires a group is one thing. To make a quest that requires AND rewards a guild is another. PUGs do not equal grouping in all those senses.
These are the things that bugged me as well. I was very happy to listen to the dialogue and make my response choices, but when it came to going out and killing off the usual mobs, I was bored. And seeing everyone wandering around looking similar with the same companions just added to my boredom. It's like I only felt immersed during cutscenes, which certainly isn't something I expected!
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
It seems some people don't understand the most basic concepts of game design. I see this kind of nonsense thrown around a lot so I guess it needs explaining.
Players are only going to do what they are rewarded for.
Let me rephrase that.
Humans are only going to do what they are rewarded for. They will take the path of least resistance. It is the responsibility of the designer to make sure the features of the game encourage grouping. The quest system, as has been explained in this thread, strongly discourages grouping by making the rewards for grouping significantly less than soloing if you are not on the very same quest.
Including elite dungeons and enemies that require grouping is "forcing" the player to group. This makes grouping feel tedious because you have to stop and find a group in order to progress. It's an artificial solution. Players have to be influenced such that they want to work with other players and will do so naturally, not because there is a wall in front of them that bars passage unless they have a party.
I could go on forever about this subject, but the bottom line is that player behavior is determined by the game's design. If players aren't grouping, it's the designers' fault, not the players.
"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." -Dr. Seuss
Heh... except the choices really didn't make a difference
This idea is fundamentally flawed. Let me explain
Say if the game designers were to give insentives to group (which they do, more on this further down) say for example, more EXP. Then players will feel like they have to group just to get that EXP boost, or they will fall behind everyone else playing. Another example? lets say it was loot. Again, players will feel forced to do this in order to get the best loot. The designers intentionally didnt want to reward this behavior because it would make grouping feel required.
Bottom line: Nothing will make the player like grouping if they dont like it already. They also have to want to do it order for them to like it.
Now on to the rest of the post. They do give incentives to grouping. "What is that?"you might ask. Ever noticed the little purple icon while grouped in coversations with a number next to it? Those, my friend, are what Bioware calls "Social Points" These points can only be gained while grouped (hence incentive) and they allow you to earn ranks which allow you to have special titles, buy special equipment, so on and so far.
Now with that being said, I would like to add my 2 cents about these kind of posts, in general, not spsecifically this one. I have read literally hundreds of threads on here, swtor.com, gamespot, and have only found maybe 5 valid points. Let me repeat that. Hundreds of threads. 5 vaild points. I'm not even exaggerating, Alot of post make quite a few points to argue within them, so you can imagine thats quite a few altogether. The thing is, all these posts have a fundametally flawed approach to thinking when it comes to critizing the game. From the post above and reading my counter-argument, you can see how it, as have many others, failed. I'm no stranger to critique of a game. I read extensively, sometimes I read more than I play the game. I've been playing MMOs for almost 10 years now, and gaming since I was a wee lad. I've played quite a few games in that time, and have come to gather a nice little haul of experience.
That being said, at the end of the day, it's really how the person feels about the game. Its their opinion, which is the great thing about opinions. But for the love of god, stop making posts like these, as they are pretty much lies, because within them are just entire walls of misinformation, which, while making an entertaining read, are bad all around.
Which is exactly what he said in his post, if you bothered to read it. Reading comprehension fail. Ow, my head.
I played neither Knight nor Warrior. Well, that's not true. I played a Warrior through 3 and deleted him. I did play Inq, Con, Smug, and Agent through 10-11. I played Hunter and Trooper 7-8. I even did replay rerolls on Inq, Agent and Smug. I did the typical thing I do during a beta, play through that "first bit" - to get an idea/feel for the different classes. It is interesting just how different the play works out for them - not balanced in the least - which some might disapprove of, but I thought it added some flavor...kind of.
Outside of "fighting" other players over quest objectives, I did not feel like I was playing a MMORPG in the least. There was nothing in the level range that I played that required any interaction with other players. Everything was easy before getting the companion, and then after that - it was painfully easy.
Other people simply served to break the immersion that the SPRPG aspect of the game was attempting to build.
Kill X of Y and Collect X of Y are pretty much themepark standards. Even if it is just a case of killing one thing or collecting one thing, it's basically what you're going to be doing in a themepark. It is kind of where the "MMO" element ruined the "SP" element, lol - in a different way - having to "stand in line" to do the X of Y's.
I suppose the issue that made it so tedious for me was how easy it was to do both. It was mindless mashing.
Not only people running around with near identical companions, but people running around near identical themselves. No doubt it gets better once you get off of the starter planet - but it still has that "new car" thing to it. You know how it is, you buy a new car - and - suddenly you see everybody driving the same thing. You never noticed that there were as many of the same vehicle out there - not until you have one yourself, lol. Tada, there it is.
But with the way the starter planets are setup - two classes - well, for those first 10-11 levels; yep - everybody is pretty much looking identical and running around with identical companions.
Again, this is a way that it felt like trying to be a "MMO" ruined what could have been a perfectly good "SP" experience.
Some companions got a "Customization" - but you could not preview it with the preview being broken. Some companions did not have that customization option.
The lack of overall customization options was made worse by including companions - instead of just you looking like everybody else, it's you and you're buddy looking like everybody else.
It is kind of funny, I appreciate what they were doing with trying to make the instances appear seamless. No need to click a door and watch a loading screen - you just walk right into your instance. Though it needs some work, I do appreciate what they are trying to do there.
But it was funny watching people disappear into them. It was funny standing just inside and watching people walk in only to disappear.
As for the "red walls" - it was not only a case of seeing them for areas for other classes, but they were also areas you might have been but cannot return until sent back there again. You've got your room at Nem'ro's palace, but you can only go there when sent there. With some instances, when you left - you ended up facing that "red wall" for the area you just left.
Have to say, I would have preferred that they did not use the "green walls" or "red walls" for it. For the "green" areas, they could have simply left it appearing as open. For the "red" areas, they could have simply put a wall there. I think that would solve the issue.
I think this could have been an awesome SPRPG. Outside of "group PvP" and "dungeons" - basically game lobby aspects . . . I'm not sure in the limited experience I had, what would make this a MMORPG at all. Yep, could have been a great SPRPG with that multiplayer game lobby for online play for things like PvP and dungeons for those that wanted it. Heck, they could have worked it out so you could run multiple companions for singleplayer dungeons, etc.
Okay, with that being said though - I'll add my own biggest issue(s) with the game.
First, in regard to cutscenes. Okay, obviously I have a different defintion of what a cutscene is than everybody else. A cutscene is an interruption in gameplay - where you simply watch. The "cutscenes" in SWTOR are interactive scenes. They're not cutscenes. I spent almost two weeks discussing Cutscenes/VOs - trying to get more info out of people - and nobody mentioned that they were interactive scenes. Even as I stated that I wanted to play...not watch... nobody stated they were interactive. Tada, you're playing still. I actually found those interactive scenes to be awesome - one of the best aspects of the game...
...with a couple of issues.
Meaningless choices. You could be the nice guy or the ass in one selection, and it did not change your choices for the next selection. You could finish a series and it would not affect your next series. You may not notice this unless you "replay" or play another class on the same starting planet. The choices appear only to be there in some cases to change affection with the companion or for your light/dark choices when those pop up.
I'm not an aural learner. Way back in school, I learned more from reading/doing than I did from listening. So while I know that I had a great time with some of the dialogues, for the life of me - I cannot remember what actually took place. I just know I had fun...but not exactly why I had fun. For other games, I can recall quests/missions that I had fun...where I had to read the text. Some folks are aural learners and not readers, so no doubt they'll thoroughly enjoy what is offered.
Second, in regard to Light/Dark. Okay, so outside of requirements for gearing - does this actually do anything? Yep, I did the Dark Smuggler, Light Inquisitor, and the Light Agent. Nothing changed compared to being a Light Smuggler or Dark Agent. Have to say though, the Dark Smuggler was fun to play - was far more "EVIL" than anything I did while Empire. But it was only fun in the moment, it changed nothing about what happened after it.
Third, in regard to population. This was the one that pushed me away from looking around for something to pawn to buy the game. Basically, I noticed the following based on the number of people:
<200 and the game played awesome
200-300 and the game played fine
300-450 and I started to notice delays in conversations starting - you get to watch the . . . over and over
450-700 and I started having problems looting and the conversation delay grew worse
>700 and NPCs would not appear, as well as an increase of the problems of >300
Regardless of the population, my FPS was always in the 30s and my latency was always 32-41ms. So unless those meters are broken, the issue is obviously a server side issue. I would have to log out of the character and log back in to loot. I would get the outline of NPCs if I hovered over them - the blue glowy aura, so I just ignored that - as long as I knew about where they were standing.
On the server I was playing, the Republic Fleet only got around to 500-800. The Empire Fleet shot over 1500. Was definitely more noticeable on my Empire toons than on my Republic toons.
When those numbers got over 500, Alt-Tabbing became a trip. Could fix it by a log out/in though.
As a bonus, I had a dead orange pixel in the game right below the chat window. I played other games, no dead pixel. Went through and ran diagnostics for dead pixels, no dead pixel. I could resize the chat window to cover it up, and it would cover it up - however, if I did not do that - spin the camera, etc - that "dead pixel" was always on top of the background.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
I ran across this on one of the beaches of Ord Mantell. I ran into the water, heading towards what looked like an island off in the distance. Just a few steps into the water and I got that message, even though I was just knee-deep in water.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR