star wars the old republic is boring , that is what is going to kill it really, nothing inovative and original, i have seen all the machanics in other games, and no matter how hard they try they did not make the game imerxive by making me listen to the quest
Anyone into stock markets happen to know why EAs stock is worth twice as much as Activisions and what that means for both companies?
For the end consumer it means about the same as the price difference between Apple (~$375) and Microsoft (~$25) stock: Nothing.
It proves that the people running the stock market are total idiots and need to be replaced or taught somethings. Apple makes such horrible products. They're cheaply made, usually breaking so often you go buy another because it's "Apple" and Apple makes twice the money of let's say Samsung who's products last for years and cost less. It may be different now, but I bought an original iPhone when they first came out. I never had so much trouble with a phone. I had to get the attenae replaced, it was malfunctioning, touchscreen stopped working, after about 8 months the battery life went to about an hour of standby, went through two batteries all within the 2 years. As soon as my contract was up, I switched to a Samsung phone and didn't have a SINGLE problem, not even a dropped call. I'm a pretty clumsy guy, and I dropped my iPhone one time and it had to be replaced, the screen cracked right in half, and that was on CARPET. I've dropped my newest Samsung galaxy 2 several times, even on concrete, the only thing you'll notice is a couple of paint chips on the corners that it hit, which you still can't see until you get upclose since the underlayment is black as the paint is too. So if we're going to put stock market numbers against company product, Apple is at $375, Samsung should be over $1,000,000. Stocks are irrelevant.
Edit: And I didn't even mention the fact that Apple comes out with underpowered and overpriced products every 3 months...the iPhone 4 still can only run one app at a time....horrible. You buy the top of the line Apple, and it's way outdated in 3 months when they release the new model. There's been more than 4 models of the iPhone, there's been probably like 50-60.
I have an ipod. Wish it was an iphone because its far superior to my samsung epic. My epic is slow, I get force closes constantly on any program installed and the company did a firmware update two weeks ago thats driving me nuts. Why? Because the stupid thing caused a glitch in my system that makes it so the sound during phone calls is blasting in my ear and I have to hold it an inch away from my head to talk or I'll go deaf.
I've never had a problem with my ipod. If I had a choice, I'd get the iphone in a flat second, but I've only had my contract for 6 months so I'm not up for renewal yet.
You had a first generation iphone. We're up to generation five. Thats a big jump. Saying apple sucks when you had a very very old version and figuring thats still the case when you haven't even used it is like saying a 1976 ford fiesta sucks in comparison to a modern ford mustang. Of course it does.
Oh and the reason the iphone cracks so easily is because its made of glass and most other phones are made of plastic. Which you would have known if you had bothered to learn anything about it before you bought it, and actually buy a cushioned cover to go with it.
Oh knock it off. Sick of hearing it. If you don't like it, don't play it, and don't reply to threads on it. It is not a wow clone. I hate wow. If it was, I wouldn't play it. I don't play anything that reminds me of wow.
No, they didn't. They only had a 150 million dollar budget, and didn't use it in its entirety.
As to the OP. . . this isn't BioWares first Star Wars title... nor is it EAs. I don't think Kotick is telling EA what they didn't already know.... they are paying Lucas Arts a good deal of money for the IP.
I think it would be stupid at this point to question EAs business sense. They may not always have the best games, but they aren't stupid. They wouldn't be doing this if they didn't feel there was substantial money to be made for themselves.
More than just SWTOR is hurting WoW. I know people who went to League of Legends, to Skyrim, to, Rift, I even know some people who are hooked on silly cellphone games, and then you have people who got tired of the game altogether. All of those things combined hurt WoW.
An EA report to investors a few months ago was shown on one of the websites (Darth Hater I believe). It stated that EA/Bioware will recieve ALL sales, retail box and digital, from the sale of SWTOR and LucasArts will recieve 30% of subs income. This indicates to me that this is a long term investment in the future of SWTOR. I do not believe that LucasArts put in their money into EA/Bioware. The estimated outlay was reported to be in the area of 80 million by EA. The retail/digital sales should recoup their investment and provide a steady profit for the immediate future while LucasArts gets the cash and advertisement audience for their intellectual property. A good solid business arrangement thouroughly vetted by some very savvy folks who are probably not spending much time on forums. Professional businessmen and women who do this sort of thing for a living.
As for the game, SWTOR BETA was CROWDED with players. Success will be determined over a period of time of course and my bet is on SUCCESS, player and financier. Win win!
It's a single player game bro, didn't you know?
That's why on Sunday morning when everyone was in, every single server in the list was at FULL. Every last one of them, and there were what? Twenty or twenty five beta servers?
I've been involved with every mmorpg beta that has taken place in the last decade, minus maybe one or two, and I have never once seen a following this heavy for any of them. SWTOR is attracting people the same way WoW did when it came out, and that is what most people never consider: that when WoW came out, it wasn't anything exceptionally innovative either, it just refined features the genre already had, and polished the living hell out of the client post-launch.
Bioware isn't as stupid as some people seem to believe, quite the contrary.
Seems like a positive sign to me, I honestly can't believe some people actually think otherwise, but those that do are in for a rude awakening indeeed come launch time and the first year of the game's lifespan.
Those ppl your talking about are the guildees in WoW who suddenly see the guild roster drop from an active 40/50 ppl a night to maybe 5/10, and it's hurting their raiding schedule, I know this because it's the exact thing thats happening to the community I'm a part of, our WoW gaming chapter is dying, yet our SWTOR chapter is booming, mainly with those that have deserted WoW for something new and shiny.
Those left behind aren't happy, most are trying to find a more active raiding guild but aren't having much luck as we catered to a mix of casual/hardcore types and most of the guilds that are still able to raid regularly are the more hardcore and less the hybrid model (though ofc this isn't always the case on every server).
Fortunately for me, even if our WoW chapter does eventually dwindle to just 1 or 2 players, we will still see the majority of WoW players come across to us to see what all the fuss is about and fingers crossed will want to stay with old friends.
i just don't understand why people don't get the fact, and yes its a "FACT" that Activision and Blizzard are seperate, you can go look it up Blizzard is in full control of everything they do Kotick is not the Blizzard CEO the OP got it wrong. Kotick is a douche and doesn't speak for Blizzard its just the way things are.
Nvm even the freaking news article got it wrong. what ever happened to these news people doing their research, oh well.
"The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand." - Lewis Thomas
i just don't understand why people don't get the fact, and yes its a "FACT" that Activision and Blizzard are seperate, you can go look it up Blizzard is in full control of everything they do Kotick is not the Blizzard CEO the OP got it wrong. Kotick is a douche and doesn't speak for Blizzard its just the way things are.
Nvm even the freaking news article got it wrong. what ever happened to these news people doing their research, oh well.
Blizzard and Activision may still be separate divisions, but they are now part of the same umbrella entity. it's very common for there to be corporate culture bleed after a merge occurs. So while Kotick may not speak for Morhaime and Blizzard directly, his attitude still has some influence on Blizzard.
Not to mention that how well Blizzard does affects Activision and Kotick, and vice-versa, because their valuations are tied together due to being merged into a single stock.
Blizzard shares are down 5.5% and EA's shares are up 27%. It's not a stretch to think that players aren't the only things Blizzard might be losing to EA. This is how corporations compete when they can't compete on the merits of their products.
I think it just shows that EA/Bioware have gotten to the business suits who run Blizzard. Nobody can know how much money SW;TOR will make or not make until after it launches. However, pre-sales for SW:TOR are very strong and I will bet you all the Activation Execs logged in for the last SW:TOR test weekend. SW:TOR looks very polished, is a new AAA title, innovates beyond WoW, and Activation don't have anything with WoW beyond Kung Fu Panda expansion. Are they slinging mud now, of course, but saying that the IP rights are going to kill profits is not correct, fact is if SW:TOR can hold a million subs over its first year then EA have cracked the big time MMORPG market, and that is a real win for EA if that pans out.
500k subs has to be a reserved estimate, I think were talking more in the millions.
I play WOW and have done for years, SWTOR feels like a modern game but when I login to WOW it feels clunky and old and there's simply no way bliz can change this.
i just don't understand why people don't get the fact, and yes its a "FACT" that Activision and Blizzard are seperate, you can go look it up Blizzard is in full control of everything they do Kotick is not the Blizzard CEO the OP got it wrong. Kotick is a douche and doesn't speak for Blizzard its just the way things are.
Nvm even the freaking news article got it wrong. what ever happened to these news people doing their research, oh well.
Blizzard and Activision may still be separate divisions, but they are now part of the same umbrella entity. it's very common for there to be corporate culture bleed after a merge occurs. So while Kotick may not speak for Morhaime and Blizzard directly, his attitude still has some influence on Blizzard.
Not to mention that how well Blizzard does affects Activision and Kotick, and vice-versa, because their valuations are tied together due to being merged into a single stock.
when you see Morhaime speak on it then i would be like "they are nervous" but kotick speaking means nothing when it comes to Blizzard. The only reason Kotick is saying anything is because he hates EA its a fight between him and EA because of Battlefield games and Modern Warfare games, he's just finding this a good time to talk smack about their upcoming game. He still doesn't represent Blizzard no matter how anyone tries to spin it.
i'm just honestly tired though of the false information that kotick is in charge of Blizzard, he isn't and never will be. Blizzard decides everything they do. if kotick was in charge there wouldn't be blizzcon's or free content patches or anything, kotick would charge outragesly for every possible thing in warcraft and their other games.
"The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand." - Lewis Thomas
WoW's got China on lock Blizzard will be able to stay on top as long as the Asian market continues to play. MoP may actually hurt that since pandas are very revered in China.
Licensing actually is EA's speciality (eg NFL, Star Wars, etc), so unless Mr. Kotick knows something the general public doesn't, I think EA will be in position for a very good return on their investment.
Current valuations show Activision to be worth $2.9 billion while Electronic Arts is worth $5.2 billion. Zynga however just out of interest is worth $5.5 billion and has only been going for a few years.
My first thought was, who? And then I googled... Afterwards I died a little on the inside.
Yup, just shows what you can do with a few crappy facebook games don't it.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
how much money has ea made of college football, the nfl and other pro sports? alot . They know how to get a deal with someone like lucas arts taht benifits them.
People out ther tend to think of ea in 2 ways the evil empire for wanting to make a profit or stupid company that doesnt know what there doing.
I dont understand how one of the top 2-3 publishers in all the world as far as games go is looked on thsi way.
Obvioulsy ea wouldnt of spent the money on a game like tor if they couldnt make a profit and if the deal with luas arts wasnt favorable to both.
A massive story driven themepark game based on Star Wars made by Bioware, a company with a massive fan following, and backed by Lucas Arts, the masters of merchandising madness, and he doesn't think that EA can turn a massive profit off this game? What a smug little jackass. I ended up not liking this game but even I can see how well it will appeal to quite a large number of gamers.
To be fair Tard, he didn't say that the game wouldn't make a ton of money... he said the percentages that Lucas demand will impact heavily on EA's take home pay.
I can see where he is coming from.
The merchandising you mention for example... who do you think make off that? EA or LA?
Actually to be truly fair he made a blind assumption, as I'm sure he has no idea how the IP deal between Bioware and LA breaks down, that Bioware and EA would be stupid enough to make a deal that left them eaking out a minimal profit while LA got the lions share. As Masked pointed out, this isn't the first time Bioware has worked with LA. I seriously doubt they would make any kind of deal and pour so much money and effort into a product when they were only looking at getting a small return off of it.
Kotick's comments are a pathetic double bluff, insinuating that SWTOR can't really be a success and therefore a threat to his profit margins as even if the game turns out to be wildy popular EA and Bioware are too stupid to have made a favorable business deal with LA. He is essentially saying "Well even if SWTOR is a success they probably won't make much money off it". He really might as well have just said "Well the grapes were probably sour anyway", as that is pretty much the actual gist of his sentiment.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
Who profits the most doesn't really matter to Activision as they are losing customers regardless of who it is. Kotick should be more concerned about making blizzard improve their game rather than letting it stagnate.
Please Santa, all I want for Christmas is for someone to stab Kotick.
Not fatally, just enough so that he may never return to a games company ever again with his personal hatred of games and his pastime of pissing on homeless children.
A massive story driven themepark game based on Star Wars made by Bioware, a company with a massive fan following, and backed by Lucas Arts, the masters of merchandising madness, and he doesn't think that EA can turn a massive profit off this game? What a smug little jackass. I ended up not liking this game but even I can see how well it will appeal to quite a large number of gamers.
To be fair Tard, he didn't say that the game wouldn't make a ton of money... he said the percentages that Lucas demand will impact heavily on EA's take home pay.
I can see where he is coming from.
The merchandising you mention for example... who do you think make off that? EA or LA?
Actually to be truly fair he made a blind assumption, as I'm sure he has no idea how the IP deal between Bioware and LA breaks down, that Bioware and EA would be stupid enough to make a deal that left them eaking out a minimal profit while LA got the lions share. As Masked pointed out, this isn't the first time Bioware has worked with LA. I seriously doubt they would make any kind of deal and pour so much money and effort into a product when they were only looking at getting a small return off of it.
Kotick's comments are a pathetic double bluff, insinuating that SWTOR can't really be a success and therefore a threat to his profit margins as even if the game turns out to be wildy popular EA and Bioware are too stupid to have made a favorable business deal with LA. He is essentially saying "Well even if SWTOR is a success they probably won't make much money off it". He really might as well have just said "Well the grapes were probably sour anyway", as that is pretty much the actual gist of his sentiment.
I have to agree with Tard here. It just seems to me that the CEO is trying to do some sort of damage control (and doing it badly). Reminds me of the statement released by the head of the company making the Battlestar Galactica MMO. that one was almost as pathetic.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
A massive story driven themepark game based on Star Wars made by Bioware, a company with a massive fan following, and backed by Lucas Arts, the masters of merchandising madness, and he doesn't think that EA can turn a massive profit off this game? What a smug little jackass. I ended up not liking this game but even I can see how well it will appeal to quite a large number of gamers.
To be fair Tard, he didn't say that the game wouldn't make a ton of money... he said the percentages that Lucas demand will impact heavily on EA's take home pay.
I can see where he is coming from.
The merchandising you mention for example... who do you think make off that? EA or LA?
Actually to be truly fair he made a blind assumption, as I'm sure he has no idea how the IP deal between Bioware and LA breaks down, that Bioware and EA would be stupid enough to make a deal that left them eaking out a minimal profit while LA got the lions share. As Masked pointed out, this isn't the first time Bioware has worked with LA. I seriously doubt they would make any kind of deal and pour so much money and effort into a product when they were only looking at getting a small return off of it.
Kotick's comments are a pathetic double bluff, insinuating that SWTOR can't really be a success and therefore a threat to his profit margins as even if the game turns out to be wildy popular EA and Bioware are too stupid to have made a favorable business deal with LA. He is essentially saying "Well even if SWTOR is a success they probably won't make much money off it". He really might as well have just said "Well the grapes were probably sour anyway", as that is pretty much the actual gist of his sentiment.
He's referring to his stockholders leaving not Wow's playerbase.
Jerlot I am glad someone gets it. Alot of assumptions thrown our there. Those in the know probably know the percentages. We now have financial wizards throwning out stock prices, over a darn game!! I am laughing so hard as value does not mean squat! Go look at Bank of America BAC right now!
Played both and neither one frankly really brings anything new to the genre. This may ruffle the fanboi's feathers.
Comments
star wars the old republic is boring , that is what is going to kill it really, nothing inovative and original, i have seen all the machanics in other games, and no matter how hard they try they did not make the game imerxive by making me listen to the quest
I have an ipod. Wish it was an iphone because its far superior to my samsung epic. My epic is slow, I get force closes constantly on any program installed and the company did a firmware update two weeks ago thats driving me nuts. Why? Because the stupid thing caused a glitch in my system that makes it so the sound during phone calls is blasting in my ear and I have to hold it an inch away from my head to talk or I'll go deaf.
I've never had a problem with my ipod. If I had a choice, I'd get the iphone in a flat second, but I've only had my contract for 6 months so I'm not up for renewal yet.
You had a first generation iphone. We're up to generation five. Thats a big jump. Saying apple sucks when you had a very very old version and figuring thats still the case when you haven't even used it is like saying a 1976 ford fiesta sucks in comparison to a modern ford mustang. Of course it does.
Oh and the reason the iphone cracks so easily is because its made of glass and most other phones are made of plastic. Which you would have known if you had bothered to learn anything about it before you bought it, and actually buy a cushioned cover to go with it.
And Blizzard built an EQ clone with cartoon graphics, what's your point?
Oh knock it off. Sick of hearing it. If you don't like it, don't play it, and don't reply to threads on it. It is not a wow clone. I hate wow. If it was, I wouldn't play it. I don't play anything that reminds me of wow.
No, they didn't. They only had a 150 million dollar budget, and didn't use it in its entirety.
As to the OP. . . this isn't BioWares first Star Wars title... nor is it EAs. I don't think Kotick is telling EA what they didn't already know.... they are paying Lucas Arts a good deal of money for the IP.
I think it would be stupid at this point to question EAs business sense. They may not always have the best games, but they aren't stupid. They wouldn't be doing this if they didn't feel there was substantial money to be made for themselves.
More than just SWTOR is hurting WoW. I know people who went to League of Legends, to Skyrim, to, Rift, I even know some people who are hooked on silly cellphone games, and then you have people who got tired of the game altogether. All of those things combined hurt WoW.
Those ppl your talking about are the guildees in WoW who suddenly see the guild roster drop from an active 40/50 ppl a night to maybe 5/10, and it's hurting their raiding schedule, I know this because it's the exact thing thats happening to the community I'm a part of, our WoW gaming chapter is dying, yet our SWTOR chapter is booming, mainly with those that have deserted WoW for something new and shiny.
Those left behind aren't happy, most are trying to find a more active raiding guild but aren't having much luck as we catered to a mix of casual/hardcore types and most of the guilds that are still able to raid regularly are the more hardcore and less the hybrid model (though ofc this isn't always the case on every server).
Fortunately for me, even if our WoW chapter does eventually dwindle to just 1 or 2 players, we will still see the majority of WoW players come across to us to see what all the fuss is about and fingers crossed will want to stay with old friends.
i just don't understand why people don't get the fact, and yes its a "FACT" that Activision and Blizzard are seperate, you can go look it up Blizzard is in full control of everything they do Kotick is not the Blizzard CEO the OP got it wrong. Kotick is a douche and doesn't speak for Blizzard its just the way things are.
Nvm even the freaking news article got it wrong. what ever happened to these news people doing their research, oh well.
"The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand."
- Lewis Thomas
EA makes all the trashiest video games.
Play as your fav retro characters: cnd-online.net. My site: www.lysle.net. Blog: creatingaworld.blogspot.com.
Blizzard and Activision may still be separate divisions, but they are now part of the same umbrella entity. it's very common for there to be corporate culture bleed after a merge occurs. So while Kotick may not speak for Morhaime and Blizzard directly, his attitude still has some influence on Blizzard.
Not to mention that how well Blizzard does affects Activision and Kotick, and vice-versa, because their valuations are tied together due to being merged into a single stock.
I think it just shows that EA/Bioware have gotten to the business suits who run Blizzard. Nobody can know how much money SW;TOR will make or not make until after it launches. However, pre-sales for SW:TOR are very strong and I will bet you all the Activation Execs logged in for the last SW:TOR test weekend. SW:TOR looks very polished, is a new AAA title, innovates beyond WoW, and Activation don't have anything with WoW beyond Kung Fu Panda expansion. Are they slinging mud now, of course, but saying that the IP rights are going to kill profits is not correct, fact is if SW:TOR can hold a million subs over its first year then EA have cracked the big time MMORPG market, and that is a real win for EA if that pans out.
500k subs has to be a reserved estimate, I think were talking more in the millions.
I play WOW and have done for years, SWTOR feels like a modern game but when I login to WOW it feels clunky and old and there's simply no way bliz can change this.
when you see Morhaime speak on it then i would be like "they are nervous" but kotick speaking means nothing when it comes to Blizzard. The only reason Kotick is saying anything is because he hates EA its a fight between him and EA because of Battlefield games and Modern Warfare games, he's just finding this a good time to talk smack about their upcoming game. He still doesn't represent Blizzard no matter how anyone tries to spin it.
i'm just honestly tired though of the false information that kotick is in charge of Blizzard, he isn't and never will be. Blizzard decides everything they do. if kotick was in charge there wouldn't be blizzcon's or free content patches or anything, kotick would charge outragesly for every possible thing in warcraft and their other games.
"The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand."
- Lewis Thomas
Yeah because China matters...
Playing: Nothing
Looking forward to: Nothing
Licensing actually is EA's speciality (eg NFL, Star Wars, etc), so unless Mr. Kotick knows something the general public doesn't, I think EA will be in position for a very good return on their investment.
I keep thinking of the .dot bust days where new companies were highly overpriced. Remember when zynga was "worth" 11 billion? http://news.cnet.com/8301-10797_3-20091331-235/new-sec-filing-puts-zynga-valuation-at-$11-billion-in-march/
now it's 5.5 billioin? that's half value. Did it lose that much OR is the market still lowering the amount towards some real world value?
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Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
You must have never experienced the Sega Genesis/SNES era then. EA back then was what Blizzard/Bioware are currently.
how much money has ea made of college football, the nfl and other pro sports? alot . They know how to get a deal with someone like lucas arts taht benifits them.
People out ther tend to think of ea in 2 ways the evil empire for wanting to make a profit or stupid company that doesnt know what there doing.
I dont understand how one of the top 2-3 publishers in all the world as far as games go is looked on thsi way.
Obvioulsy ea wouldnt of spent the money on a game like tor if they couldnt make a profit and if the deal with luas arts wasnt favorable to both.
Actually to be truly fair he made a blind assumption, as I'm sure he has no idea how the IP deal between Bioware and LA breaks down, that Bioware and EA would be stupid enough to make a deal that left them eaking out a minimal profit while LA got the lions share. As Masked pointed out, this isn't the first time Bioware has worked with LA. I seriously doubt they would make any kind of deal and pour so much money and effort into a product when they were only looking at getting a small return off of it.
Kotick's comments are a pathetic double bluff, insinuating that SWTOR can't really be a success and therefore a threat to his profit margins as even if the game turns out to be wildy popular EA and Bioware are too stupid to have made a favorable business deal with LA. He is essentially saying "Well even if SWTOR is a success they probably won't make much money off it". He really might as well have just said "Well the grapes were probably sour anyway", as that is pretty much the actual gist of his sentiment.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
Who profits the most doesn't really matter to Activision as they are losing customers regardless of who it is. Kotick should be more concerned about making blizzard improve their game rather than letting it stagnate.
Please Santa, all I want for Christmas is for someone to stab Kotick.
Not fatally, just enough so that he may never return to a games company ever again with his personal hatred of games and his pastime of pissing on homeless children.
(Okay, I may of made up that last one)
I have to agree with Tard here. It just seems to me that the CEO is trying to do some sort of damage control (and doing it badly). Reminds me of the statement released by the head of the company making the Battlestar Galactica MMO. that one was almost as pathetic.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
He's referring to his stockholders leaving not Wow's playerbase.
Jerlot I am glad someone gets it. Alot of assumptions thrown our there. Those in the know probably know the percentages. We now have financial wizards throwning out stock prices, over a darn game!! I am laughing so hard as value does not mean squat! Go look at Bank of America BAC right now!
Played both and neither one frankly really brings anything new to the genre. This may ruffle the fanboi's feathers.