Just ask the older players of City they will vouch for what I am saying.
*raises hand* I was there! There's actually been other MMOs that haven't really had proper tanks/healers. Holy trinity hasn't been present in ALL MMOs, just a goodly portion of them.
I didn't fail to add the 2nd definition. I don't need to add the 2nd definition.
For instance, if we look up the word "funny" in the dictionary we see several definitions.
providing fun; causing amusement or laughter; amusing; comical:
attempting to amuse; facetious:
warranting suspicion; deceitful; underhanded:
Informal . insolent; impertinent:
curious; strange; peculiar; odd:
I can correctly describe something as funny if it has even only one of these attributes. It does not have to have all of them.
Again, we're quibbling here. I was making a list which compares GW2 to the established themepark MMO standard (I might as well have just said "WoW'). If something is different than that, it counts for this list.
No we are not quibbling, maybe you are, because you used the word wrong, and wont admitt to it. Innovation are something NEW. 95% of Your list is not innovative. If you would edit your title I would have no beef at all.
Again I am not saying GW2 will be a bad game or anything like that. On the contrary I have no doubt that it will be a great game for some people. I just like calling out overzealous fans of which this fanbase is already bording cultish, the likes of which I have not seen sice Darkfall.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
Yes, there is no standard Tank, Heal, DPS trinity, but there still IS a trinity, and that is what matters most. They're not eliminating the Holy Trinity, they are substituting it.
Just ask the older players of City they will vouch for what I am saying.
While I won't argue that CoH was there before I think the trick ANet will have to pull off is to avoid how zergy that made that game feel a lot of the time for PvE, especially in PUGs.
It's gonna be a narrow divide, from my experience of modern gamers, between fun self accountability with required mutual support and herding cats (as CoH can feel like very often).
Yes, there is no standard Tank, Heal, DPS trinity, but there still IS a trinity, and that is what matters most. They're not eliminating the Holy Trinity, they are substituting it.
So what you are saying is, they did away with the Holy Trinity for a new trinity? So they did eliminate the Holy Trinity from the game in favor of this new one?
I'm glad that they got rid of the Holy Trinity then .
Yes, there is no standard Tank, Heal, DPS trinity, but there still IS a trinity, and that is what matters most. They're not eliminating the Holy Trinity, they are substituting it.
So what you are saying is, they did away with the Holy Trinity for a new trinity? So they did eliminate the Holy Trinity from the game in favor of this new one?
I'm glad that they got rid of the Holy Trinity then .
I think the idea is more to get rid of class dependency (ie Clerics) then remove roles.
Yes, there is no standard Tank, Heal, DPS trinity, but there still IS a trinity, and that is what matters most. They're not eliminating the Holy Trinity, they are substituting it.
They are eliminating Holy Trinity, because new trinity isn't holy. New trinity doesn't encourage extreme specialization, quite the opposite - it forces players to swap roles on the run and mix them. You still can focus on one of it's aspects if that's the role you enjoy the most, but ignoring remaining ones will get you (and others) killed.
I wanted to put together a comprehensive list of GW2 innovations. This is no substitute for the "Everything We Know about GW2" thread which is already stickied and provides links.
These are innovations away from the current traditional themepark MMO standard. It doesn't mean they're all going to be huge revolutionary changes. It also doesn't mean that these haven't been done somewhere else before. But I do believe that ArenaNet tries to add their own spin to them if possible.
There's no need to dissect the entire list, but if you want to object, suggest, clarify, or simply have a question, how about we take it on a point by point basis?
Many thanks to Fozzik for helping me compile this. He also makes an excellent point about cohesiveness two posts down.
Combat:
Casting while moving - You can do this in WoW
No auto attack (you can set any skill on your bar to autocast, and one of them will be spammable) - SWTOR
Attacks don't need a target, they'll hit whatever gets in their way - DDO
Dodging attacks and projectiles - DDO
Shield stance blocks projectiles from hitting you and people behind you - Linage 2, DDO
Limited skillbar - ? Really? You're getting as bad as Apple here
No holy trinity, players aren't locked into one role to the exclusion of all others - Any game with Hybird classes, streching to call this an "innovation" - There have been games since Horizon that had no classes and no Trinity
Skills fit into broad categories of damage, control, or support - DPS, CC, BUFFER -
Weapon(s) determine half your skill bar and give different skills than other weapons - FFIV
Players can potentially switch roles in combat (if weapon/skill choices plan for it) - This is aslo a strech, in WoW the other day, I had to stop healing and CC, then do some damage - Again, big strech here to call this an "innovation"
No ally targeted abilities - DCUO
Everyone has a self-heal ability which is the most powerful heal - Bandages, Potions... really.. come on.
Downed state before dying, killing an enemy rallies you - EQ2 - Incapacitated before death
Downed state gives you a new, limited skillbar to fight back with - This I'll give you... but, I'll have to see how useful.
Any player can rez anyone mid combat anytime, including NPCs. - This doesn't sound like a good thing to me. You could also do this in Horizons
Very minimal death penalty. - No
Picking up an environmental weapon changes your skillbar - FFiV
Thieves can steal environmental weapons from enemies - In many games including FF, theives can steal. You could steal from others in Shadawbane also.
You get full xp and loot for helping kill a mob, even if ungrouped - Full according to what it was set as. This is objective and an easy bullcrap call.
Hundreds of cross profession combos - Haven't read about this, so I'd have to give it to you
Mob aggro based on proximity and other factors - Vague
NPC enemies can dodge your attacks - Really? This a joke?
NPC attacks may be deadlier due to ability of players to dodge and revive - Again, no innovation here
No mana/energy for any class (subject to change) - Gotta see this one - subject to change cause it's crap.
Only four attributes. Power affects melee, range and spell damage - Dumbed down, having four attributes can't be seen as innovative.
I'll stop here, but so far, I only saw one or two things - This is looking like one of those Apple list they put out with "500 new feature" with features such as - volume button turns the volume up.
Half the shit I read below this was being done back in games like Shadowbane 8 years ago. There are TONS of Mmo's that you may have not played, so don't think that something hasn't been done just because you personally haven't seen it. And if you agre they have been done.. why the need for the list. I could put together the same list for any game and say that Blizzard or SOE puts their own little spin on it.
I'm nothing saying this game will be bad, only time will tell. But bull crap list like this appears as "grasping". Just let the game speak for itself.... when it comes out. A game doesn't need to be the most innovative to be good.
Yes, there is no standard Tank, Heal, DPS trinity, but there still IS a trinity, and that is what matters most. They're not eliminating the Holy Trinity, they are substituting it.
So what you are saying is, they did away with the Holy Trinity for a new trinity? So they did eliminate the Holy Trinity from the game in favor of this new one?
I'm glad that they got rid of the Holy Trinity then .
I think the idea is more to get rid of class dependency (ie Clerics) then remove roles.
I am aware, just pokin a little fun lol.
Actually something that had always struck me as odd is it seems that the Holy Trinity really is just something that came out of MMO's and not the RPG genre. I never quite understood so few developers thought to move away from it to be honest.
Tabletop DnD doesnt have the HT, nor did any of the other rpgs I played as a child or teen. I guess it was much easier to design for back in the days of dialup and such, because having the gameplay based on reflexes and battlefield cordination would not have done well; but still to see it being used now as the must have setup seems rather lazy of the developers.
3 Faction World PVP against two other servers in large 4-zone maps
hm? Is there some double speak going on here?
Your server is your "faction"... you and everyone else from your server does PvP against everyone from two other servers. So it's basically three faction PvP.
It's not open world PvP either, its a big instance pvp.
You couldn't me more wrong and more misinformed. It is most definitely not a an instance. Your whole server can fit in there, is that an instance? No, everyone from the server will join the percistent battleground. You will not be in groups upon joining, but can form groups, stay solo, etc.. The zone is very much like the battlegrounds in DAoC which were not instances. It will last for 2 weeks, then you will be matched with 2 other equal powered servers.
There is nothing Innovative on that list, pretty much everything was done before. I still dont know why people really believe that gw2 is ¨the perfect game¨, the revolution for the genre¨, if you think like that, im sorry but ur disappointment will be bad. It will be a good game, and improved version of gw1 for sure, but thats all, is a b2p game for a reason.
What a fail... This game will be great, just mark my words. But that itself is just a prediction, if it flops which it very well could then I will be the first to admit it. However, to say it is a b2p game for a reason is highly ignorant of you. It is b2p, because ANet doesn't believe in the P2P model, and believes that quality products can be made without having to pay a subscription. They believe that what should continue to earn them revenue is if they continue to put out quality expansions and products that the users want to buy.
I'm not at all interested in continuing any discussions about what constitutes innovation. As Meowhead put it before, if a radio exists and you put it into a car for the first time, it's an innovation. This is a list of things that GW2 is bringing which is differentiating itself from the AAA MMO themepark standard (WoW). I'm not changing the title, and I'm not entertaining this aspect of the discussion anymore.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it."-Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Yes, there is no standard Tank, Heal, DPS trinity, but there still IS a trinity, and that is what matters most. They're not eliminating the Holy Trinity, they are substituting it.
They are eliminating Holy Trinity, because new trinity isn't holy. New trinity doesn't encourage extreme specialization, quite the opposite - it forces players to swap roles on the run and mix them. You still can focus on one of it's aspects if that's the role you enjoy the most, but ignoring remaining ones will get you (and others) killed.
That is an assessment that would require extensive gameplay experience and one I will refrain from delving into. But from the Guild Wars 2 website: "You could say instead of DPS/heal/tank, we have our own trinity of damage, support, and control..."
Yes, there is no standard Tank, Heal, DPS trinity, but there still IS a trinity, and that is what matters most. They're not eliminating the Holy Trinity, they are substituting it.
They are eliminating Holy Trinity, because new trinity isn't holy. New trinity doesn't encourage extreme specialization, quite the opposite - it forces players to swap roles on the run and mix them. You still can focus on one of it's aspects if that's the role you enjoy the most, but ignoring remaining ones will get you (and others) killed.
That is an assessment that would require extensive gameplay experience and one I will refrain from delving into. But from the Guild Wars 2 website: "You could say instead of DPS/heal/tank, we have our own trinity of damage, support, and control..."
I disagree. Everyone is to degree healer, because self heals are most effective. Everyone is to degree a tank, because mob control is group responsibility now. Everyone can rez. This game is designed around mixing roles. Extensive gameplay experience can only prove they screwed something up, but you don't need it to assess that strict roles aren't their intention.
As for the quote, I know they have their own trinity. It's just not holy anymore.
Yes, there is no standard Tank, Heal, DPS trinity, but there still IS a trinity, and that is what matters most. They're not eliminating the Holy Trinity, they are substituting it.
They are eliminating Holy Trinity, because new trinity isn't holy. New trinity doesn't encourage extreme specialization, quite the opposite - it forces players to swap roles on the run and mix them. You still can focus on one of it's aspects if that's the role you enjoy the most, but ignoring remaining ones will get you (and others) killed.
That is an assessment that would require extensive gameplay experience and one I will refrain from delving into. But from the Guild Wars 2 website: "You could say instead of DPS/heal/tank, we have our own trinity of damage, support, and control..."
Not true.
Everyone does significant healing. We know that already.
Look at the weapons. There's no way to go pure damage. You'll always have some control/support abilities on them. You simply can't specialize in just one of their "roles." Their ability score system backs this up -- there's no seperation of control, damage, and support attributes. Honestly, calling them "roles" is a bit disingenuous. There're more like combat elements. I mean, you COULD say that instead of DPS/heal/tank they have their own trinity. It wouldn't be a very accurate way of looking at things, but you could say that.
Also it would ignore other important elements like positioning, which given the abilities in the game will matter quite a bit and seems to be just as important an element of gameplay.
I wanted to put together a comprehensive list of GW2 innovations. This is no substitute for the "Everything We Know about GW2" thread which is already stickied and provides links.
These are innovations away from the current traditional themepark MMO standard. It doesn't mean they're all going to be huge revolutionary changes. It also doesn't mean that these haven't been done somewhere else before. But I do believe that ArenaNet tries to add their own spin to them if possible.
There's no need to dissect the entire list, but if you want to object, suggest, clarify, or simply have a question, how about we take it on a point by point basis?
Many thanks to Fozzik for helping me compile this. He also makes an excellent point about cohesiveness two posts down.
Combat:
Casting while moving - You can do this in WoW
No auto attack (you can set any skill on your bar to autocast, and one of them will be spammable) - SWTOR
Attacks don't need a target, they'll hit whatever gets in their way - DDO
Dodging attacks and projectiles - DDO
Shield stance blocks projectiles from hitting you and people behind you - Linage 2, DDO
Limited skillbar - ? Really? You're getting as bad as Apple here
No holy trinity, players aren't locked into one role to the exclusion of all others - Any game with Hybird classes, streching to call this an "innovation" - There have been games since Horizon that had no classes and no Trinity
Skills fit into broad categories of damage, control, or support - DPS, CC, BUFFER -
Weapon(s) determine half your skill bar and give different skills than other weapons - FFIV
Players can potentially switch roles in combat (if weapon/skill choices plan for it) - This is aslo a strech, in WoW the other day, I had to stop healing and CC, then do some damage - Again, big strech here to call this an "innovation"
No ally targeted abilities - DCUO
Everyone has a self-heal ability which is the most powerful heal - Bandages, Potions... really.. come on.
Downed state before dying, killing an enemy rallies you - EQ2 - Incapacitated before death
Downed state gives you a new, limited skillbar to fight back with - This I'll give you... but, I'll have to see how useful.
Any player can rez anyone mid combat anytime, including NPCs. - This doesn't sound like a good thing to me. You could also do this in Horizons
Very minimal death penalty. - No
Picking up an environmental weapon changes your skillbar - FFiV
Thieves can steal environmental weapons from enemies - In many games including FF, theives can steal. You could steal from others in Shadawbane also.
You get full xp and loot for helping kill a mob, even if ungrouped - Full according to what it was set as. This is objective and an easy bullcrap call.
Hundreds of cross profession combos - Haven't read about this, so I'd have to give it to you
Mob aggro based on proximity and other factors - Vague
NPC enemies can dodge your attacks - Really? This a joke?
NPC attacks may be deadlier due to ability of players to dodge and revive - Again, no innovation here
No mana/energy for any class (subject to change) - Gotta see this one - subject to change cause it's crap.
Only four attributes. Power affects melee, range and spell damage - Dumbed down, having four attributes can't be seen as innovative.
I'll stop here, but so far, I only saw one or two things - This is looking like one of those Apple list they put out with "500 new feature" with features such as - volume button turns the volume up.
Half the shit I read below this was being done back in games like Shadowbane 8 years ago. There are TONS of Mmo's that you may have not played, so don't think that something hasn't been done just because you personally haven't seen it. And if you agre they have been done.. why the need for the list. I could put together the same list for any game and say that Blizzard or SOE puts their own little spin on it.
I'm nothing saying this game will be bad, only time will tell. But bull crap list like this appears as "grasping". Just let the game speak for itself.... when it comes out. A game doesn't need to be the most innovative to be good.
Innovative does not mean inventive. That's what people tend to not understand. Inventive is creating something new, while innovative is just foward thinking.
As er your red list, you pretty much just inclined that GW2 took features that ArenaNet THOUGHT were good from various games and integrated them into a single package. That is innovative. Is it as innovative as what fanbois hype it to be? More than likely not, but it is innovation still.
When the wheel was created, it was ivention. When the wheel was attached to a box, it was innovation. The motored vehicle was invention. When we started using lightweight materials for efficiency, that was innovation.
In fact, if you listed all the good features of other MMO's, you will probably tie most of the features back to WoW's implementation or something before WoW that implemented it slightly different.
That means GW2 won't be brand new and inventive, it just TRYS to be a step foward.
I wanted to put together a comprehensive list of GW2 innovations. This is no substitute for the "Everything We Know about GW2" thread which is already stickied and provides links.
These are innovations away from the current traditional themepark MMO standard. It doesn't mean they're all going to be huge revolutionary changes. It also doesn't mean that these haven't been done somewhere else before. But I do believe that ArenaNet tries to add their own spin to them if possible.
There's no need to dissect the entire list, but if you want to object, suggest, clarify, or simply have a question, how about we take it on a point by point basis?
Many thanks to Fozzik for helping me compile this. He also makes an excellent point about cohesiveness two posts down.
Combat:
Casting while moving - You can do this in WoW - No you can't
No auto attack (you can set any skill on your bar to autocast, and one of them will be spammable) - SWTOR
Attacks don't need a target, they'll hit whatever gets in their way - DDO
Dodging attacks and projectiles - DDO
Shield stance blocks projectiles from hitting you and people behind you - Linage 2, DDO
Limited skillbar - ? Really? You're getting as bad as Apple here - Show me another game with a skill bar similar to it?
No holy trinity, players aren't locked into one role to the exclusion of all others - Any game with Hybird classes, streching to call this an "innovation" - There have been games since Horizon that had no classes and no Trinity
Skills fit into broad categories of damage, control, or support - DPS, CC, BUFFER -
Weapon(s) determine half your skill bar and give different skills than other weapons - FFIV - Weapons in FF MMO's change your class, at least they do in FFIVX, which is not the same thing.
Players can potentially switch roles in combat (if weapon/skill choices plan for it) - This is aslo a strech, in WoW the other day, I had to stop healing and CC, then do some damage - Again, big strech here to call this an "innovation" - You cannot do this in WoW, sorry.
No ally targeted abilities - DCUO
Everyone has a self-heal ability which is the most powerful heal - Bandages, Potions... really.. come on. - Name a game, show a video or something.. go on..
Downed state before dying, killing an enemy rallies you - EQ2 - Incapacitated before death
Downed state gives you a new, limited skillbar to fight back with - This I'll give you... but, I'll have to see how useful.
Any player can rez anyone mid combat anytime, including NPCs. - This doesn't sound like a good thing to me. You could also do this in Horizons
Very minimal death penalty. - No
Picking up an environmental weapon changes your skillbar - FFiV
Thieves can steal environmental weapons from enemies - In many games including FF, theives can steal. You could steal from others in Shadawbane also. - Stealing and stealing items to then use against the enemy are two different things
You get full xp and loot for helping kill a mob, even if ungrouped - Full according to what it was set as. This is objective and an easy bullcrap call. - If a creature is worth 500exp and two people kill it they both get 500exp rather than 250exp each. Simple, why is this bullcrap?
Hundreds of cross profession combos - Haven't read about this, so I'd have to give it to you
Mob aggro based on proximity and other factors - Vague - Ok, the Mob aggro is based off of proximity, armor class, damage dealt and various other factors. For instance in GW1 if you AOE a pack of mobs they scatter to avoid the AoE.
NPC enemies can dodge your attacks - Really? This a joke? - No, they can move out of the way and avoid attacks.
NPC attacks may be deadlier due to ability of players to dodge and revive - Again, no innovation here
No mana/energy for any class (subject to change) - Gotta see this one - subject to change cause it's crap. - It's crap but you didn't even know about it.. yeah.. I think I can see a pattern here.
Only four attributes. Power affects melee, range and spell damage - Dumbed down, having four attributes can't be seen as innovative. - See last response.
I'll stop here, but so far, I only saw one or two things - This is looking like one of those Apple list they put out with "500 new feature" with features such as - volume button turns the volume up.
Half the shit I read below this was being done back in games like Shadowbane 8 years ago. There are TONS of Mmo's that you may have not played, so don't think that something hasn't been done just because you personally haven't seen it. And if you agre they have been done.. why the need for the list. I could put together the same list for any game and say that Blizzard or SOE puts their own little spin on it.
I'm nothing saying this game will be bad, only time will tell. But bull crap list like this appears as "grasping". Just let the game speak for itself.... when it comes out. A game doesn't need to be the most innovative to be good.
You're counter to the list is.. pathetic.
Come back when you have either an arguement or a clue, either will do. Sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming that things are 'bullcrap' doesn't stand for anything, especially when you put your foot in your mouth talking about features you didn't even know existed and still calling it crap purely because you can't imagine it working.
This is not innovative; its actually a big downer! games need to go the other way to make them fun again risk vs reward has been screwed up for years now. if you have nothing to risk when you enter the dungeon in search of uber loot then whats the point?
This is a subject for which people are going to have differing opinions. There's no one size fits all answer.
It's just my opinion, but even in games like WoW where it's pretty minimal, you'll still see people give up on a group quickly if someone else can't get their act together.
GW2's penalty is just about as minimal as there can be, with no armor repair and only a token monetary penalty (probably just as a cash sink for the economy)
I think that GW2 is going to be all about having difficult encounters that can have some variation due to the in-combat rezzing. It's not just a wipe when the tank dies, a group can potentially recover. They haven't shown off the dungeons yet, but they did let people play them. This is the best description we have http://www.guildwars2guru.com/forum/showpost.php?p=774927&postcount=45 Even after 3 hours of wipefest, they absolutely loved the dungeon, had fun, and felt an amazing sense of accomplishment. I think with a harsh death penalty, they probably give up after an hour, or don't go in the first place without an amazing group.
But that's just my opinion. I think that there need to be/should be different options. I think the GW2 minimal penalty fits with their whole "casual, we want you to play with strangers" theme, but other games could go into different directions and be very successful doing their own thing.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it."-Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
No we are not quibbling, maybe you are, because you used the word wrong, and wont admitt to it. Innovation are something NEW. 95% of Your list is not innovative. If you would edit your title I would have no beef at all.
Again I am not saying GW2 will be a bad game or anything like that. On the contrary I have no doubt that it will be a great game for some people. I just like calling out overzealous fans of which this fanbase is already bording cultish, the likes of which I have not seen sice Darkfall.
Off Topic:
Sorry Cali but I need to respond to this! OK todaze lets take your definition of innovation that it has to be something new and apply it to a professionally written business article and see if it holds up. I will use a Forbes article about the top 30 Innovations in the last 30 years as something to compare your definition to. Here is the top 30:
1. Internet, broadband, www (browser and html) – Internet is something new, broadband is not something new so it would not be innovation since it is just a upgrade to a existing idea, and the first web browser by your definition would be innovating but any browser that followed the first would never be innovative. Hear that Microsoft, Google, and Mozilla you have not done anything innovative since you were created since someone beat you to the first in 1990! http://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/WorldWideWeb.html
4. E-mail – not an innovation in the last 30 years because the first message over a network was done in 1971 and that would be 38 years before they wrote that article not 30. So E-mail in 1979 or even in the 1990s when hotmail became popular would not be innovating since it was not the first! http://www.blurtit.com/q172238.html http://openmap.bbn.com/~tomlinso/ray/firstemailframe.html
5. DNA testing and sequencing/human genome mapping - this is innovative by your definition
6. Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI) - Not innovative since it was based off of NMR, so it is not new!
15. Online shopping/e-commerce/auctions (e.g., eBay) - would be innovative by your definition, although ebay would not be since it was not around in 1991 when e-commerce was new.
20. Social networking via the Internet - would be innovative by your definition
21. Graphic user interface (GUI) - would be innovative by your definition although everything we know today as a GUI would not be innovative by your definition since none of it would be new, just a upgrade to the GUIs that came before them.
30. Anti-retroviral treatment for AIDS - would be innovative by your definition
So let’s see out of the 30 listed only 10 would be innovative by your definition. I guess you better write into Forbes and tell them that they do not know what innovation means and their article titled 30 innovations in the last 30 years is wrong! Or maybe just maybe what the world sees as innovation is not the same as your definition of what is innovative and your strict logic that it must meet both sides of the definition is wrong!
Nah that cannot be the world is wrong and you are right, we all must accept your point of view! So please go tell Forbes for us that their article was completely and utterly wrong. /sarcasm off
On topic: Great job Cali on the list will be useful for people that are new to GW2.
I wanted to put together a comprehensive list of GW2 innovations. This is no substitute for the "Everything We Know about GW2" thread which is already stickied and provides links.
These are innovations away from the current traditional themepark MMO standard. It doesn't mean they're all going to be huge revolutionary changes. It also doesn't mean that these haven't been done somewhere else before. But I do believe that ArenaNet tries to add their own spin to them if possible.
There's no need to dissect the entire list, but if you want to object, suggest, clarify, or simply have a question, how about we take it on a point by point basis?
Many thanks to Fozzik for helping me compile this. He also makes an excellent point about cohesiveness two posts down.
Combat:
Casting while moving - You can do this in WoW - No you can't
No auto attack (you can set any skill on your bar to autocast, and one of them will be spammable) - SWTOR
Attacks don't need a target, they'll hit whatever gets in their way - DDO
Dodging attacks and projectiles - DDO
Shield stance blocks projectiles from hitting you and people behind you - Linage 2, DDO
Limited skillbar - ? Really? You're getting as bad as Apple here - Show me another game with a skill bar similar to it?
No holy trinity, players aren't locked into one role to the exclusion of all others - Any game with Hybird classes, streching to call this an "innovation" - There have been games since Horizon that had no classes and no Trinity
Skills fit into broad categories of damage, control, or support - DPS, CC, BUFFER -
Weapon(s) determine half your skill bar and give different skills than other weapons - FFIV - Weapons in FF MMO's change your class, at least they do in FFIVX, which is not the same thing.
Players can potentially switch roles in combat (if weapon/skill choices plan for it) - This is aslo a strech, in WoW the other day, I had to stop healing and CC, then do some damage - Again, big strech here to call this an "innovation" - You cannot do this in WoW, sorry.
No ally targeted abilities - DCUO
Everyone has a self-heal ability which is the most powerful heal - Bandages, Potions... really.. come on. - Name a game, show a video or something.. go on..
Downed state before dying, killing an enemy rallies you - EQ2 - Incapacitated before death
Downed state gives you a new, limited skillbar to fight back with - This I'll give you... but, I'll have to see how useful.
Any player can rez anyone mid combat anytime, including NPCs. - This doesn't sound like a good thing to me. You could also do this in Horizons
Very minimal death penalty. - No
Picking up an environmental weapon changes your skillbar - FFiV
Thieves can steal environmental weapons from enemies - In many games including FF, theives can steal. You could steal from others in Shadawbane also. - Stealing and stealing items to then use against the enemy are two different things
You get full xp and loot for helping kill a mob, even if ungrouped - Full according to what it was set as. This is objective and an easy bullcrap call. - If a creature is worth 500exp and two people kill it they both get 500exp rather than 250exp each. Simple, why is this bullcrap?
Hundreds of cross profession combos - Haven't read about this, so I'd have to give it to you
Mob aggro based on proximity and other factors - Vague - Ok, the Mob aggro is based off of proximity, armor class, damage dealt and various other factors. For instance in GW1 if you AOE a pack of mobs they scatter to avoid the AoE.
NPC enemies can dodge your attacks - Really? This a joke? - No, they can move out of the way and avoid attacks.
NPC attacks may be deadlier due to ability of players to dodge and revive - Again, no innovation here
No mana/energy for any class (subject to change) - Gotta see this one - subject to change cause it's crap. - It's crap but you didn't even know about it.. yeah.. I think I can see a pattern here.
Only four attributes. Power affects melee, range and spell damage - Dumbed down, having four attributes can't be seen as innovative. - See last response.
I'll stop here, but so far, I only saw one or two things - This is looking like one of those Apple list they put out with "500 new feature" with features such as - volume button turns the volume up.
Half the shit I read below this was being done back in games like Shadowbane 8 years ago. There are TONS of Mmo's that you may have not played, so don't think that something hasn't been done just because you personally haven't seen it. And if you agre they have been done.. why the need for the list. I could put together the same list for any game and say that Blizzard or SOE puts their own little spin on it.
I'm nothing saying this game will be bad, only time will tell. But bull crap list like this appears as "grasping". Just let the game speak for itself.... when it comes out. A game doesn't need to be the most innovative to be good.
You're counter to the list is.. pathetic.
Come back when you have either an arguement or a clue, either will do. Sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming that things are 'bullcrap' doesn't stand for anything, especially when you put your foot in your mouth talking about features you didn't even know existed and still calling it crap purely because you can't imagine it working.
Pathetic? ok... first off, it's Your, not You're. But back to you in a minute.
Innovation: To invent or begin to apply; Using or showing new methods; ideas, etc. The introductioin of something new....
So no, most of you are wrong.. to say that they are "improving" on what has already been done is not what innovative means. The whole "forward thinking" premise you guys are throwing around means creating. Its a poor argument to say, well... it has been done before... but they're doing it better. Especially when the majority of you.. if not most, haven't even played it.
Back to you. You can run in WoW while casting. Fire Mages do it, and I do it on my Elemental Shaman. Ask someone. You're wrong. And are you telling me that you can't, cause damage, CC and heal on the same character in WoW? Really? Have you ever played it? Most classes can do mutliple roles. My god. And on to potions and bandages.... you need me to show you that ANYONE can take first aid in WoW? ANYONE can use potions? You really need me to show this? Ok.. I'll try:
Like I said, you dont' need to come on here and claim everything they are doing is "new" "innovative" or better then everything else. Just let the game speak for itself. You guys are making it look worse by grasping like this. It looks like a desperate attempt to make it appear better. Don't tell me to come back when I have a clue as you're blatantly wrong on several of your arguments.
Back to you. You can run in WoW while casting. Fire Mages do it, and I do it on my Elemental Shaman. Ask someone. You're wrong. And are you telling me that you can't, cause damage, CC and heal on the same character in WoW? Really? Have you ever played it? Most classes can do mutliple roles. My god. And on to potions and bandages.... you need me to show you that ANYONE can take first aid in WoW? ANYONE can use potions? You really need me to show this? Ok.. I'll try:
Look to my earlier posts for my thoughts on what constitutes innovation in this context. I'm not even going to discuss that aspect of your post.
In WoW, unless they've dramatically changed the game in the past two years, you can only cast instant cast spells while moving (and since they're instant cast, you're not really moving while casting). If you want to cast a spell that has a cast time, you have to stop. In GW2, you can cast spells with a cast time while moving (example). That's what that point is about.
WoW has a holy trinity system. Sure, a player could do all sorts of different things, but the point is that it simply doesn't matter what they do at lower levels. In order to be even remotely successful in the difficult content of WoW, you MUST specialize into one of those three roles. If you're a DPS, every single choice you make will be about maximizing your DPS. If you're a healer, every single choice will be about maximizing your healing. Hybrids in such a system are incredibly inefficient and completely unviable as options. In GW2, it will not even be possible to fully specialize to one role. Even if you did load up on control or support skills as much as possible, you're still responsible for dealing damage.
The bullet point about self healing isn't only that everyone can self heal, it's that it's also the most powerful heal in the game. Other heals are weak, and regeneration boons only stack in duration, not power. Everyone is responsible for their own welfare in GW2 in a way which simply does not exist in WoW.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it."-Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
This is what I would add to the original list for innovations:
Allowing players to play independantly while fighting the same mobs/boss as other players without penalty. Full XP and full loot to all.
Dynamic Event chains that allow all players in an area to take part in the same dynamic storyline(consecutive, associated dynamic events), at the exact same time.
Cross profession combos that allow a player to take advantage of another players skills to improve their own capabilities, even when they are not part of their group.
Resource nodes that do not deplete for each player when one player gathers resources.
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
Back to you. You can run in WoW while casting. Fire Mages do it, and I do it on my Elemental Shaman. Ask someone. You're wrong. And are you telling me that you can't, cause damage, CC and heal on the same character in WoW? Really? Have you ever played it? Most classes can do mutliple roles. My god. And on to potions and bandages.... you need me to show you that ANYONE can take first aid in WoW? ANYONE can use potions? You really need me to show this? Ok.. I'll try:
Like I said, you dont' need to come on here and claim everything they are doing is "new" "innovative" or better then everything else. Just let the game speak for itself. You guys are making it look worse by grasping like this. It looks like a desperate attempt to make it appear better. Don't tell me to come back when I have a clue as you're blatantly wrong on several of your arguments.
I thought this thread had quieted down. While I still think the list is a nice show of effort and opinion, it has been stated already that while not every idea in and of itself is innovative, having this many things pointed out that differ from the general MMO trend all in one game is. When you look at the amount of things they are bringing to the table, it at least shows that they aren't just following a tried and true copy of the rest of the crap out there.
Also I just had to point out that while you are correct on the shaman movement thing as well as fire mages, in WoW those are abilities that allow this to happen but it isn't the mechaninc or the norm for casters. In Gw2 it will be. Sure you can run and cast an instant spell and activate an ability that allows you to move and cast, it is part of the actual mechanic in GW2 and it also puts an emphasis on movement during combat and not standing around.
As to bandages and potions, do you need me tho show you how much of a joke they made firstaid and potions when regarding health pools? You also posted the pots and bandages thing regarding that the self heal is the most powerful heal that a player can do. Self heals and self sustainability are what he was trying to point out. While there will be non target heals, they are more for support than to actually keep bad players alive, as in players that don't try to heal themselves AND avoid damage. If you are claiming WoW has this it is you that are stretching to prove your point.
/edit I just saw Cali said pretty much the same thing. Sorry for the repeat , but maybe it helps if you read it put forth with different wording.
So no, most of you are wrong.. to say that they are "improving" on what has already been done is not what innovative means. The whole "forward thinking" premise you guys are throwing around means creating. Its a poor argument to say, well... it has been done before... but they're doing it better. Especially when the majority of you.. if not most, haven't even played it.
Back to you. You can run in WoW while casting. Fire Mages do it, and I do it on my Elemental Shaman. Ask someone. You're wrong. And are you telling me that you can't, cause damage, CC and heal on the same character in WoW? Really? Have you ever played it? Most classes can do mutliple roles. My god. And on to potions and bandages.... you need me to show you that ANYONE can take first aid in WoW? ANYONE can use potions? You really need me to show this? Ok.. I'll try:
Like I said, you dont' need to come on here and claim everything they are doing is "new" "innovative" or better then everything else. Just let the game speak for itself. You guys are making it look worse by grasping like this. It looks like a desperate attempt to make it appear better. Don't tell me to come back when I have a clue as you're blatantly wrong on several of your arguments.
As has already been pointed out to you, and others, multiple times.
Innovation is not Invention. Creating a car is Invention, creating the radio was invention. Putting a radio inside a car was Innovation. This is the equivelant of what GW2 is doing to the MMO world in most of it's features.
Now that we have that out of the way..
Yes, I played WoW. Quite a lot in fact. Try over 450 days /played.
Just because a Mage can cast Scorch or an Elemental Shaman can cast Lightning Bolt while running for spending points in the appropriate talent/Glyph does *not* make it even remotely comparable. The reason it was on the list is that the vast, vast majority of skills and spell in GW2 can be cast while moving and the game is balanced thus. Again, difference between Invention and Innovation (Not that WoW invented that anyway.. but nevertheless..)
On to your second point; Potions and Bandages are about as good at healing someone as soggy paper towels are at damaging a tank. I really don't need to say anything more than that really. This is all besides the point as you seemed to have missed the most important part of that feature, which is that the self-heal spells that every single person has are the most powerful heals in the entire game. That would be the same as every single person having all the druid healing spells in WoW and not only that but they would be cast at the same strength as what a Resto Druid does.
Now, maybe you would like to reply and answer to AKASlaphappy's post as to why one of the most renowned publications in the world doesn't know what Innovate means?
Or what about some of this
'No mana/energy for any class (subject to change) - Gotta see this one - subject to change cause it's crap.'
Yeah, so you didn't even know that no classes used Mana or Energy and you're calling it crap? Then you have the cheek to try throw a dictionary at us?
How about you show us another game with the same kind of skill bar, that you can change while in combat? And not only that but the skills on the bar themselves tie in directly to the weapon being used? How about a game that has specific underwater weapons that also change the skill bar?
And while on the subject of WoW, you said.
Players can potentially switch roles in combat (if weapon/skill choices plan for it) - This is aslo a strech, in WoW the other day, I had to stop healing and CC, then do some damage - Again, big strech here to call this an "innovation"
Sorry but again you are comparing apples to oranges. Even if we were to go back to Vanilla WoW, where this was a more viable role for a character than any other time in WoW's history, It's still nowhere near the implementation of the mechanic in GW2. When we talk about role changes in GW2 we are talking about switching weapons half way through a fight and being granted a completely different skill set. It's the equivelant of going from a prot specced warrior to fury, just by changing weapon. Note that this is all done while in combat, something else that you cannot do in WoW. Building a character around switching roles on the fly is something that died in WoW well before they even gave you Dual Spec.
What about
You get full xp and loot for helping kill a mob, even if ungrouped - Full according to what it was set as. This is objective and an easy bullcrap call. -
It's obvious with this answer, and many others you put to the list, that you have no idea how half these features are even implemented in GW2. When you are ungrouped and 2 people come along and assist you with killing the mobs you would traditionally have tagged in games such as EQ or WoW you would get all the loot and exp for yourself. Some games change it by scaling the exp granted comparative to the percentage of health you removed from the mob but don't change the way the looting works. In GW2 when people come along and help every single person is awarded for their effort and get's loot accordingly.
Maybe instead of throwing yourself around you can take the time to go down the list and demonstrate why the features are not innovative when compared to the standard 'Traditional' MMORPG. There's an easy arguement for why some of them shouldn't be up there but I'll leave that for you. Just remember what the OP said;
'These are innovations away from the current traditional themepark MMO standard. It doesn't mean they're all going to be huge revolutionary changes. It also doesn't mean that these haven't been done somewhere else before. But I do believe that ArenaNet tries to add their own spin to them if possible.'
I will never understand why some people ask for harsher death penalties in an MMO. I can only imagine that those people have more time than money that they can actually enjoy that type of "danger". I think the vast majority of players have already voted with their wallets on this issue and I'm glad GW2 has decided to go with the flow and keep death penalties to a minimum.
Comments
*raises hand* I was there! There's actually been other MMOs that haven't really had proper tanks/healers. Holy trinity hasn't been present in ALL MMOs, just a goodly portion of them.
No we are not quibbling, maybe you are, because you used the word wrong, and wont admitt to it. Innovation are something NEW. 95% of Your list is not innovative. If you would edit your title I would have no beef at all.
Again I am not saying GW2 will be a bad game or anything like that. On the contrary I have no doubt that it will be a great game for some people. I just like calling out overzealous fans of which this fanbase is already bording cultish, the likes of which I have not seen sice Darkfall.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
Yes, there is no standard Tank, Heal, DPS trinity, but there still IS a trinity, and that is what matters most. They're not eliminating the Holy Trinity, they are substituting it.
While I won't argue that CoH was there before I think the trick ANet will have to pull off is to avoid how zergy that made that game feel a lot of the time for PvE, especially in PUGs.
It's gonna be a narrow divide, from my experience of modern gamers, between fun self accountability with required mutual support and herding cats (as CoH can feel like very often).
I have faith though.
So what you are saying is, they did away with the Holy Trinity for a new trinity? So they did eliminate the Holy Trinity from the game in favor of this new one?
I'm glad that they got rid of the Holy Trinity then
.
I think the idea is more to get rid of class dependency (ie Clerics) then remove roles.
They are eliminating Holy Trinity, because new trinity isn't holy. New trinity doesn't encourage extreme specialization, quite the opposite - it forces players to swap roles on the run and mix them. You still can focus on one of it's aspects if that's the role you enjoy the most, but ignoring remaining ones will get you (and others) killed.
I'll stop here, but so far, I only saw one or two things - This is looking like one of those Apple list they put out with "500 new feature" with features such as - volume button turns the volume up.
Half the shit I read below this was being done back in games like Shadowbane 8 years ago. There are TONS of Mmo's that you may have not played, so don't think that something hasn't been done just because you personally haven't seen it. And if you agre they have been done.. why the need for the list. I could put together the same list for any game and say that Blizzard or SOE puts their own little spin on it.
I'm nothing saying this game will be bad, only time will tell. But bull crap list like this appears as "grasping". Just let the game speak for itself.... when it comes out. A game doesn't need to be the most innovative to be good.
I am aware, just pokin a little fun lol.
Actually something that had always struck me as odd is it seems that the Holy Trinity really is just something that came out of MMO's and not the RPG genre. I never quite understood so few developers thought to move away from it to be honest.
Tabletop DnD doesnt have the HT, nor did any of the other rpgs I played as a child or teen. I guess it was much easier to design for back in the days of dialup and such, because having the gameplay based on reflexes and battlefield cordination would not have done well; but still to see it being used now as the must have setup seems rather lazy of the developers.
You couldn't me more wrong and more misinformed. It is most definitely not a an instance. Your whole server can fit in there, is that an instance? No, everyone from the server will join the percistent battleground. You will not be in groups upon joining, but can form groups, stay solo, etc.. The zone is very much like the battlegrounds in DAoC which were not instances. It will last for 2 weeks, then you will be matched with 2 other equal powered servers.
What a fail... This game will be great, just mark my words. But that itself is just a prediction, if it flops which it very well could then I will be the first to admit it. However, to say it is a b2p game for a reason is highly ignorant of you. It is b2p, because ANet doesn't believe in the P2P model, and believes that quality products can be made without having to pay a subscription. They believe that what should continue to earn them revenue is if they continue to put out quality expansions and products that the users want to buy.
I'm not at all interested in continuing any discussions about what constitutes innovation. As Meowhead put it before, if a radio exists and you put it into a car for the first time, it's an innovation. This is a list of things that GW2 is bringing which is differentiating itself from the AAA MMO themepark standard (WoW). I'm not changing the title, and I'm not entertaining this aspect of the discussion anymore.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
That is an assessment that would require extensive gameplay experience and one I will refrain from delving into. But from the Guild Wars 2 website: "You could say instead of DPS/heal/tank, we have our own trinity of damage, support, and control..."
I disagree. Everyone is to degree healer, because self heals are most effective. Everyone is to degree a tank, because mob control is group responsibility now. Everyone can rez. This game is designed around mixing roles. Extensive gameplay experience can only prove they screwed something up, but you don't need it to assess that strict roles aren't their intention.
As for the quote, I know they have their own trinity. It's just not holy anymore.
Not true.
Everyone does significant healing. We know that already.
Look at the weapons. There's no way to go pure damage. You'll always have some control/support abilities on them. You simply can't specialize in just one of their "roles." Their ability score system backs this up -- there's no seperation of control, damage, and support attributes. Honestly, calling them "roles" is a bit disingenuous. There're more like combat elements. I mean, you COULD say that instead of DPS/heal/tank they have their own trinity. It wouldn't be a very accurate way of looking at things, but you could say that.
Also it would ignore other important elements like positioning, which given the abilities in the game will matter quite a bit and seems to be just as important an element of gameplay.
Innovative does not mean inventive. That's what people tend to not understand. Inventive is creating something new, while innovative is just foward thinking.
As er your red list, you pretty much just inclined that GW2 took features that ArenaNet THOUGHT were good from various games and integrated them into a single package. That is innovative. Is it as innovative as what fanbois hype it to be? More than likely not, but it is innovation still.
When the wheel was created, it was ivention. When the wheel was attached to a box, it was innovation. The motored vehicle was invention. When we started using lightweight materials for efficiency, that was innovation.
In fact, if you listed all the good features of other MMO's, you will probably tie most of the features back to WoW's implementation or something before WoW that implemented it slightly different.
That means GW2 won't be brand new and inventive, it just TRYS to be a step foward.
You're counter to the list is.. pathetic.
Come back when you have either an arguement or a clue, either will do. Sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming that things are 'bullcrap' doesn't stand for anything, especially when you put your foot in your mouth talking about features you didn't even know existed and still calling it crap purely because you can't imagine it working.
This is a subject for which people are going to have differing opinions. There's no one size fits all answer.
It's just my opinion, but even in games like WoW where it's pretty minimal, you'll still see people give up on a group quickly if someone else can't get their act together.
GW2's penalty is just about as minimal as there can be, with no armor repair and only a token monetary penalty (probably just as a cash sink for the economy)
I think that GW2 is going to be all about having difficult encounters that can have some variation due to the in-combat rezzing. It's not just a wipe when the tank dies, a group can potentially recover. They haven't shown off the dungeons yet, but they did let people play them. This is the best description we have http://www.guildwars2guru.com/forum/showpost.php?p=774927&postcount=45 Even after 3 hours of wipefest, they absolutely loved the dungeon, had fun, and felt an amazing sense of accomplishment. I think with a harsh death penalty, they probably give up after an hour, or don't go in the first place without an amazing group.
But that's just my opinion. I think that there need to be/should be different options. I think the GW2 minimal penalty fits with their whole "casual, we want you to play with strangers" theme, but other games could go into different directions and be very successful doing their own thing.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Off Topic:
Sorry Cali but I need to respond to this! OK todaze lets take your definition of innovation that it has to be something new and apply it to a professionally written business article and see if it holds up. I will use a Forbes article about the top 30 Innovations in the last 30 years as something to compare your definition to. Here is the top 30:
1. Internet, broadband, www (browser and html) – Internet is something new, broadband is not something new so it would not be innovation since it is just a upgrade to a existing idea, and the first web browser by your definition would be innovating but any browser that followed the first would never be innovative. Hear that Microsoft, Google, and Mozilla you have not done anything innovative since you were created since someone beat you to the first in 1990! http://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/WorldWideWeb.html
2. PC/laptop computers – not an innovation since it is not new it was beat by the super computer in 1958! http://inventors.about.com/od/cstartinventors/a/supercomputer.htm
3. Mobile phones - not an innovation since the phone was built in 1876 and RF communication was first done in the 1880s. http://www.howstuffworks.com/cell-phone.htm
4. E-mail – not an innovation in the last 30 years because the first message over a network was done in 1971 and that would be 38 years before they wrote that article not 30. So E-mail in 1979 or even in the 1990s when hotmail became popular would not be innovating since it was not the first! http://www.blurtit.com/q172238.html http://openmap.bbn.com/~tomlinso/ray/firstemailframe.html
5. DNA testing and sequencing/human genome mapping - this is innovative by your definition
6. Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI) - Not innovative since it was based off of NMR, so it is not new!
http://inventors.about.com/od/mstartinventions/a/MRI.htm
7. Microprocessors – Invested first in 1971 so the article saying it was an innovation in 1979 is wrong by your definition. http://www.pbs.org/transistor/background1/events/micropinv.html
8. Fiber optics – was not innovative in 1979 since it is not new by your definition, fiber optics was first done in 1854.
http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aa980407.htm
9. Office software (spreadsheets, word processors) - was not new in 1979 so it was not an innovation.
http://www.stanford.edu/~bkunde/fb-press/articles/wdprhist.html
10. Non-invasive laser/robotic surgery (laparoscopy) – would not be innovative by your definition, was new in 1585.
http://www.laparoscopyhospital.com/history_of_laparoscopy.htm
11. Open-source software and services (e.g., Linux, Wikipedia) – would be innovative by your definition.
12. Light-emitting diodes – would not be innovative by your definition, it was new in 1962.
http://gadgets.softpedia.com/news/History-of-LEDs-Light-Emitting-Diodes-1487-01.html
13. Liquid crystal display (LCD) - would not be innovative by your definition, it was new in 1888.
http://inventors.about.com/od/lstartinventions/a/LCD.htm
14. GPS systems - would not be innovative by your definition, it was new in 1951.
http://inventors.about.com/od/gstartinventions/a/gps.htm
15. Online shopping/e-commerce/auctions (e.g., eBay) - would be innovative by your definition, although ebay would not be since it was not around in 1991 when e-commerce was new.
http://www.ecommerce-land.com/history_ecommerce.html
http://ebay.about.com/od/ebaylifestyle/a/el_history.htm
16. Media file compression (jpeg, mpeg, mp3) - would be innovative by your definition
17. Microfinance - would be innovative by your definition
18. Photovoltaic solar energy - would not be innovative by your definition
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/solar/pdfs/solar_timeline.pdf
19. Large- scale wind turbines - would not be innovative by your definition
http://telosnet.com/wind/early.html
20. Social networking via the Internet - would be innovative by your definition
21. Graphic user interface (GUI) - would be innovative by your definition although everything we know today as a GUI would not be innovative by your definition since none of it would be new, just a upgrade to the GUIs that came before them.
http://www.sitepoint.com/real-history-gui/
22. Digital photography/videography - would not be innovative by your definition
http://inventors.about.com/od/pstartinventions/a/stilphotography.htm
23. RFID and applications (e.g., EZ Pass) - would be innovative by your definition
24. Genetically modified plants - would be innovative by your definition
25. Bio fuels - would not be innovative by your definition
http://www.firstcarnow.com/first-biofuel-car.htm
26. Bar codes and scanners - would not be innovative by your definition
http://inventors.about.com/od/bstartinventions/a/Bar-Codes.htm
27. ATMs - would not be innovative by your definition
http://www.atminventor.com/
28. Stents - would not be innovative by your definition
http://www.helium.com/items/312574-the-history-of-the-heart-stent
29. SRAM flash memory - would not be innovative by your definition
http://inventors.about.com/od/rstartinventions/a/Ram.htm
30. Anti-retroviral treatment for AIDS - would be innovative by your definition
So let’s see out of the 30 listed only 10 would be innovative by your definition. I guess you better write into Forbes and tell them that they do not know what innovation means and their article titled 30 innovations in the last 30 years is wrong! Or maybe just maybe what the world sees as innovation is not the same as your definition of what is innovative and your strict logic that it must meet both sides of the definition is wrong!
Nah that cannot be the world is wrong and you are right, we all must accept your point of view! So please go tell Forbes for us that their article was completely and utterly wrong. /sarcasm off
On topic: Great job Cali on the list will be useful for people that are new to GW2.
Pathetic? ok... first off, it's Your, not You're. But back to you in a minute.
Innovation: To invent or begin to apply; Using or showing new methods; ideas, etc. The introductioin of something new....
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/innovation
So no, most of you are wrong.. to say that they are "improving" on what has already been done is not what innovative means. The whole "forward thinking" premise you guys are throwing around means creating. Its a poor argument to say, well... it has been done before... but they're doing it better. Especially when the majority of you.. if not most, haven't even played it.
Back to you. You can run in WoW while casting. Fire Mages do it, and I do it on my Elemental Shaman. Ask someone. You're wrong. And are you telling me that you can't, cause damage, CC and heal on the same character in WoW? Really? Have you ever played it? Most classes can do mutliple roles. My god. And on to potions and bandages.... you need me to show you that ANYONE can take first aid in WoW? ANYONE can use potions? You really need me to show this? Ok.. I'll try:
http://www.wowwiki.com/First_Aid
Like I said, you dont' need to come on here and claim everything they are doing is "new" "innovative" or better then everything else. Just let the game speak for itself. You guys are making it look worse by grasping like this. It looks like a desperate attempt to make it appear better. Don't tell me to come back when I have a clue as you're blatantly wrong on several of your arguments.
Look to my earlier posts for my thoughts on what constitutes innovation in this context. I'm not even going to discuss that aspect of your post.
In WoW, unless they've dramatically changed the game in the past two years, you can only cast instant cast spells while moving (and since they're instant cast, you're not really moving while casting). If you want to cast a spell that has a cast time, you have to stop. In GW2, you can cast spells with a cast time while moving (example). That's what that point is about.
WoW has a holy trinity system. Sure, a player could do all sorts of different things, but the point is that it simply doesn't matter what they do at lower levels. In order to be even remotely successful in the difficult content of WoW, you MUST specialize into one of those three roles. If you're a DPS, every single choice you make will be about maximizing your DPS. If you're a healer, every single choice will be about maximizing your healing. Hybrids in such a system are incredibly inefficient and completely unviable as options. In GW2, it will not even be possible to fully specialize to one role. Even if you did load up on control or support skills as much as possible, you're still responsible for dealing damage.
The bullet point about self healing isn't only that everyone can self heal, it's that it's also the most powerful heal in the game. Other heals are weak, and regeneration boons only stack in duration, not power. Everyone is responsible for their own welfare in GW2 in a way which simply does not exist in WoW.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
This is what I would add to the original list for innovations:
Allowing players to play independantly while fighting the same mobs/boss as other players without penalty. Full XP and full loot to all.
Dynamic Event chains that allow all players in an area to take part in the same dynamic storyline(consecutive, associated dynamic events), at the exact same time.
Cross profession combos that allow a player to take advantage of another players skills to improve their own capabilities, even when they are not part of their group.
Resource nodes that do not deplete for each player when one player gathers resources.
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.
I thought this thread had quieted down. While I still think the list is a nice show of effort and opinion, it has been stated already that while not every idea in and of itself is innovative, having this many things pointed out that differ from the general MMO trend all in one game is. When you look at the amount of things they are bringing to the table, it at least shows that they aren't just following a tried and true copy of the rest of the crap out there.
Also I just had to point out that while you are correct on the shaman movement thing as well as fire mages, in WoW those are abilities that allow this to happen but it isn't the mechaninc or the norm for casters. In Gw2 it will be. Sure you can run and cast an instant spell and activate an ability that allows you to move and cast, it is part of the actual mechanic in GW2 and it also puts an emphasis on movement during combat and not standing around.
As to bandages and potions, do you need me tho show you how much of a joke they made firstaid and potions when regarding health pools? You also posted the pots and bandages thing regarding that the self heal is the most powerful heal that a player can do. Self heals and self sustainability are what he was trying to point out. While there will be non target heals, they are more for support than to actually keep bad players alive, as in players that don't try to heal themselves AND avoid damage. If you are claiming WoW has this it is you that are stretching to prove your point.
/edit I just saw Cali said pretty much the same thing. Sorry for the repeat , but maybe it helps if you read it put forth with different wording.
RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.
As has already been pointed out to you, and others, multiple times.
Innovation is not Invention. Creating a car is Invention, creating the radio was invention. Putting a radio inside a car was Innovation. This is the equivelant of what GW2 is doing to the MMO world in most of it's features.
Now that we have that out of the way..
Yes, I played WoW. Quite a lot in fact. Try over 450 days /played.
Just because a Mage can cast Scorch or an Elemental Shaman can cast Lightning Bolt while running for spending points in the appropriate talent/Glyph does *not* make it even remotely comparable. The reason it was on the list is that the vast, vast majority of skills and spell in GW2 can be cast while moving and the game is balanced thus. Again, difference between Invention and Innovation (Not that WoW invented that anyway.. but nevertheless..)
On to your second point; Potions and Bandages are about as good at healing someone as soggy paper towels are at damaging a tank. I really don't need to say anything more than that really. This is all besides the point as you seemed to have missed the most important part of that feature, which is that the self-heal spells that every single person has are the most powerful heals in the entire game. That would be the same as every single person having all the druid healing spells in WoW and not only that but they would be cast at the same strength as what a Resto Druid does.
Now, maybe you would like to reply and answer to AKASlaphappy's post as to why one of the most renowned publications in the world doesn't know what Innovate means?
Or what about some of this
'No mana/energy for any class (subject to change) - Gotta see this one - subject to change cause it's crap.'
Yeah, so you didn't even know that no classes used Mana or Energy and you're calling it crap? Then you have the cheek to try throw a dictionary at us?
How about you show us another game with the same kind of skill bar, that you can change while in combat? And not only that but the skills on the bar themselves tie in directly to the weapon being used? How about a game that has specific underwater weapons that also change the skill bar?
And while on the subject of WoW, you said.
Players can potentially switch roles in combat (if weapon/skill choices plan for it) - This is aslo a strech, in WoW the other day, I had to stop healing and CC, then do some damage - Again, big strech here to call this an "innovation"
Sorry but again you are comparing apples to oranges. Even if we were to go back to Vanilla WoW, where this was a more viable role for a character than any other time in WoW's history, It's still nowhere near the implementation of the mechanic in GW2. When we talk about role changes in GW2 we are talking about switching weapons half way through a fight and being granted a completely different skill set. It's the equivelant of going from a prot specced warrior to fury, just by changing weapon. Note that this is all done while in combat, something else that you cannot do in WoW. Building a character around switching roles on the fly is something that died in WoW well before they even gave you Dual Spec.
What about
You get full xp and loot for helping kill a mob, even if ungrouped - Full according to what it was set as. This is objective and an easy bullcrap call. -
It's obvious with this answer, and many others you put to the list, that you have no idea how half these features are even implemented in GW2. When you are ungrouped and 2 people come along and assist you with killing the mobs you would traditionally have tagged in games such as EQ or WoW you would get all the loot and exp for yourself. Some games change it by scaling the exp granted comparative to the percentage of health you removed from the mob but don't change the way the looting works. In GW2 when people come along and help every single person is awarded for their effort and get's loot accordingly.
Maybe instead of throwing yourself around you can take the time to go down the list and demonstrate why the features are not innovative when compared to the standard 'Traditional' MMORPG. There's an easy arguement for why some of them shouldn't be up there but I'll leave that for you. Just remember what the OP said;
'These are innovations away from the current traditional themepark MMO standard. It doesn't mean they're all going to be huge revolutionary changes. It also doesn't mean that these haven't been done somewhere else before. But I do believe that ArenaNet tries to add their own spin to them if possible.'
I will never understand why some people ask for harsher death penalties in an MMO. I can only imagine that those people have more time than money that they can actually enjoy that type of "danger". I think the vast majority of players have already voted with their wallets on this issue and I'm glad GW2 has decided to go with the flow and keep death penalties to a minimum.