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Why does SWTOR need LEVELS?
MMOExposed
Member RarePosts: 7,400
I know that the game is theme park MMO, but does that mean it need levels to tell a story? Zelda didn't have levels yet it still has a story and character progression. Levels seem like a waisted feature. It's pointless and uninteresting. I don't like level grinds. I would rather spend my time playing in a open world and having fun doing what I like to do. And the excuse that subscription based games need levels to keep people playing is, just that, an excuse. It's not true. Because if it were true, games like AoC and Warhammer wouldn't have had huge drops in subs after the free month. Bioware should have went with the no level model, or at least added a dynamic level scaling feature like Guild Wars 2 does. Anybody care to agree or disagree?
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Comments
Have fun in GW2
Sorry, but not once I felt like grinding in SWTOR. Did not really care about levels apart from getting new skills.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
I would agree that the story being a part aside the leveling would have been awesome. As a huge fan of Ultima Online, i would also agree that a skill based system is cool.
WIth that said, i like the game. But it really do not offer that much new. Which is kinda of disapointing. But i will be playing it anyways.
And there is not such thing as dynamic leveling. If there is a level 1-X then you grind to X no matter what the devs tells you they did to make it dynamic, its just a grind with different ways of grinding. Hardly dynamic.
The game is already built around the idea of levels and gear progression and there's no way in hell that it is going to change. So why bother asking for a change you will never get OP.
I like character progress and a game having content of very varying degrees of difficulty and unlocking more abilities along the way. Also the entire game is build around xp and levels, like any other progress based themepark. I reckon people won't be happy if they get wtfpwnd by level 50 mobs at level 30 but have no way to tell how tough they are from a distance so you'd have to make everything of a roughly similar difficulty level. But I wouldn't want to be able to access EVERY bit of pve content, right from the start either.
It's that road of constant, little progress based rewards that make (mmo)rpgs / hack & slashers digital crack.
Also: blame pen & paper rpg's.
My brand new bloggity blog.
just saying. Could be added in the future. But dynamic levels would have been more interesting SWTOR game. GW2 has dynamic level scales and gear progression. So the idea does work. Instead of having a set path for exploration, this makes the whole world to be Endgame contents, rather than just high level zones. Also it allow players of any level to do what THEY WANT TO DO! Mean they can do what's fun to them rather then being forced to grind levels. Optional grind at it's best. Such a shame really.Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Well logically, with no levels, the gameplay would be the same as fighting that npc on a max level character. Since levels would no longer progress, you progress in other formats. So you run into a endgame npc, you don't know how strong they are compared to you. Levels don't change that.Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Levels make quantifying progression much easier from a coding standpoint. Levels are just a stat, not unlike int or str. By making level a very important stat, it makes the other stats less important keeping combat calculations fairly uniform and combat balanced.
It's fun to consider how removing levels could work. The off side is that without them, it becomes very easy for players to goof up a build to the point where they've seriously gimped their own character via mis-applied stat bonuses.
If all stats come from gear and skill progression and the players goofed up their gear and skills, they'd be crying a river that the game was broken. In the end, it's easier to just use levels.
Levels are just the carrot on a stick you chase before you chase the gear carrot on a stick. Just another way to keep your ass in the seat playing while creating the illusion of achievement.
If there were no levels what would all the idiots that say "ding" everytime they level do?
It needs levels because the game follows the basic MMO formula. Skillbar+levels+mass slaughter of pinata mobs.
*US pen & paper rpg's. xP
Here in Sweden, to my great joy, most P&P RPGs produced (at least my favourite) lack levels all together and only use skillpoints. I can't stand level based P&P.. <.<
Anyway, you make a good point and argument. And personally, when it comes to computer games, I really have no issues with levels. It'd be fun to try out one following the old UO formula again though.
Cause it's a damn MMO.
Yes they do.
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Except, that in SWTOR the only thing you can really 'build' for your character is talent trees. All the stats come predetermined, but can be modified with gear. Neither of these needs to be determined by lvl (IE dragon age / mass effect, gear was not determined by lvl, and skill points could be gained as rewards, not just from lvling).
Honestly it's a lazy system. It's easier, absolutely, but it's just become something developers have gotten used to, instead of trying to move forward with the game design. You could just as easily throw the 'lvl' under the hood, and make the achievements / rewards / questlines determine the pace of growth.
Sad thing is, the genre has gotten into such a stagnant state, that not only do developers assume that they need to use the same design as everyone else, but it's also reinforced by the players who have gotten used to everyone using the same design mechanics.
You question sugar?
Sugar of course being one of the quickest substances to enter a human's mouth that triggers the "satisfactory reward" center of the brain.
A similar response is evoked when someone levels up.
It's a minor reward, it's addicting, it's an easy way to keep people going at the pace you want them to pay for.
That's why.
I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.
Wow is that what its called now! it sounds so dynamic.
Back in the day we use to call it de-leveling or nerfing your toon ;p
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
You do realize that feeling is obtained not only from lvling, but also anytime a meaningful reward is obtained. A new weapon, armor, a new spell / skills, a new achievement, etc. It's the experience of getting the reward itself, not the mechanic used to do it.
When manipulated. It's not a 1:1 obtainment. Sugar > more complex carbs.
Your brain can eventually have the same response from a steak served with grilled onions and mushrooms or a dry red wine, but it has to be conditioned.
New loot doesn't have the same effect until there's an association.
Levels = sugar, the simplest and most direct.
I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.
Levels are a borrowed/traditional solution from Pen & Paper RPGs for a common issue, how do you gauge capability for this battle/adventure.
Without levels, you have a multitude of different things to try and keep track of, and take into account if you want an encounter or adventure to be balanced. Does the character have enough combat skill, is his defenses good enough, what if his social skills are too low, etc. When you have a level, you don't can do it much easier, since a character or party of X level is appropriate for opponents of X level.
Additionally, just imagine trying to balance things if you don't have levels. It's like trying to weave water. Not exactly easy to say the least.
So levels make it easier for the devs, and gets to you sooner.
Lost my mind, now trying to lose yours...
You do realize that levels aren't the reward?
It's just a simple means to measure progress; the rewards are the abilities, stat increases, content and better gear you get acces to.
edit: nevermind, just realized you essentially said the same thing. Misunderstood you, sorry
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The best part for me is not really the gear but the gaining for new skills. I'm like a kid in a candy store when I level up and get the skills for that level.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
You do realize that feeling is obtained not only from lvling, but also anytime a meaningful reward is obtained. A new weapon, armor, a new spell / skills, a new achievement, etc. It's the experience of getting the reward itself, not the mechanic used to do it.
You do realize that levels aren't the reward?
It's just a simple means to measure progress; the rewards are the abilities, stat increases, content and better gear you get acces to.
The best part for me is not really the gear but the gaining for new skills. I'm like a kid in a candy store when I level up and get the skills for that level.
that is so stupid! Not you, but the idea of getting skills simply from leveling. Skills could be gained in many more ways than that. Stuff like GW did once you reached max level you still had many skills to unlock. You could even unlock skills from PvP. Levels aren't needed to do that which you request.Philosophy of MMO Game Design
I love level systems when they are implemented properly. It allows you to develop and diversify your character while giving a real sense of accomplishment. The level system is Skyrim is probably the best I've ever seen, as it encourages players to interact with a variety of gameplay elements while specializing in perk trees. If there was no level system there's nothing preventing a player from simply going directly to end game while skipping 95% of a game's quests and content. Who really wants that?
Yeah I know, I played GW for a little bit....i still have a copy collecting dust somewhere around here. Hated the game but it did have its unique features.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
Simple, really.
SW:TOR needs levels because that is how they designed and developed the game to be, level based.
Could they have chosen a different design path? of course they could, but they did not, so it is all a moot point now.
A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.