Again it's not about what to do, i can arrange my hotbars, keybind skills and arrange keygroups just fine, but when a large number of skills is pointless and redundant, and when there is no reaction / abilitiy comobination to speak of that to me screams just unacceptable for a game which is released in late 2011.
The first GW was about picking the best skill combo to work for you and your team(WoW's talent 2.0 is quite close to that), GW2 has class and cross class combos, and various other mechanics. ToR seems to be WoW with out autoattack, and maybe without the DPS spreadhseets for now, but those will come too, there is no other way of getting around them with a game which is only based on flat abilties and numbers.
Having reaction abilities and combination is not hack and slash, honestly ToR is more hack and slash than many so called H&S, The witcher has a great combat system which is both deep and chalengin, while keep the controls simple... ToR have a out-dated combat system imo which should be made much more engagin if it wants to compete with next-gen MMO's. Im not saying that it should be forced down every one's throat but games like Wild-Star seems to get it you have reactional / action abilties on top of your flat press X to do Y abilties and the game seems to reward you for not getting hit for example by dodging an attack or getting a skill shot while dashing etc`.
Thats some much more intersting than what ToR or what WoW have, and if you dont think so, then sorry its just way too diffrent tastes.
You made this thread and your OP to complain about ability overflow, now you're talking about reactive abilities.
Do you acknowledge that TOR doesn't have too many abilities to handle or what? As for only using 5 abilities in PvE, that's wrong, I personally used more than 5 at a low level (take cover, snipe, explosive probe, rifle shot, ambush, leg shot, debilitate, frag grenade, flashbang, shiv, adrenaline probe,...), depending on the length of the fight.
The IA is a class with little in regards to reactive abilities, but looking through the talent trees, I can see a number of effects triggering from this or that ability, or only being usable when the enemy is in a certain state. Cover itself was pretty much a reactive effect in my case.
The game could use more in terms of abilities that trigger when you block or parry or crit,..., but you shouldn't really pretend like every class has a plethora of those in other games either. TOR could also use more interesting talent trees in combination with that.
Even so, the combat didn't feel unresponsive or even boring, because there were a lot of options for you to use and a lot of effects that you could combine by yourself.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Seemed like they didn't have a lot of repeatable nonsense imo. There were 'similar' skills but it worked out far better than games that have you pre-buff seven times just to do your bomb skill or heal. That kind of gameplay is stupidly ridiculous if you ask me.
I did not reach max but I was happy with the amount of skills I had at various levels and thought they were the right amount. I also doubt this game will have as many skills on your screen as say WoW or Rift does, which is their chief competition.
So if someone thinks TOR has 'way too many abilities', they better stay far away from WoW and Rift which make ToR seem like League of Legends skill-amount wise. They better not start having tons of addons in this game because when my screen starts to look like this:
WoW:
Rift:
It may be time for me to look elsewhere for another game.
Seemed like they didn't have a lot of repeatable nonsense imo. There were 'similar' skills but it worked out far better than games that have you pre-buff seven times just to do your bomb skill or heal. That kind of gameplay is stupidly ridiculous if you ask me.
I did not reach max but I was happy with the amount of skills I had at various levels and thought they were the right amount. I also doubt this game will have as many skills on your screen as say WoW or Rift does, which is their chief competition.
So if someone thinks TOR has 'way too many abilities', they better stay far away from WoW and Rift which make ToR seem like League of Legends skill-amount wise. They better not start having tons of addons in this game because when my screen starts to look like this:
WoW:
Rift:
It may be time for me to look elsewhere for another game.
Weird, dont remember WoW being this cluttered...oh right it isnt. Love how that WoW screenshot has someone putting the same skill 3 times on his hotbar.
Weird, dont remember WoW being this cluttered...oh right it isnt. Love how that WoW screenshot has someone putting the same skill 3 times on his hotbar.
You do have 48 buttons in the bottom center of the screen and 15 to the left
Looks pretty clean, I don't like the black bar at the bottom though.
I hope they put in more UI customizability in TOR, possibly through player made mods.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
You cant have to many abilitys, more choices is always better. On the otherhand we shouldnt need outside MODS for anything in this game, and if they are needed I doubt I will play TOR
Weird, dont remember WoW being this cluttered...oh right it isnt. Love how that WoW screenshot has someone putting the same skill 3 times on his hotbar.
You do have 48 buttons in the bottom center of the screen and 15 to the left
Looks pretty clean, I don't like the black bar at the bottom though.
I hope they put in more UI customizability in TOR, possibly through player made mods.
Given the fact that the guy has -all- the spells on screen, even the ones he doesn't use, its still overkill, but its clean (seems to be a firemage from the animation but he has blizzard, arcane blast and, frostlance etc. on the hotbar.)
I never used any UI mods past DBM/Titanbar and one action-bar was -always- enough (not counting the right bar for food, mount, portals and teleports as mage)
I can count my spells from memory as arcane mage: arcane blast, arcane barrage, arcane missiles, arcane armor, slow, sheep, arcane brilliance, bubble, iceblock, blizzard
Weird, dont remember WoW being this cluttered...oh right it isnt. Love how that WoW screenshot has someone putting the same skill 3 times on his hotbar.
You do have 48 buttons in the bottom center of the screen and 15 to the left
Looks pretty clean, I don't like the black bar at the bottom though.
I hope they put in more UI customizability in TOR, possibly through player made mods.
Given the fact that the guy has -all- the spells on screen, even the ones he doesn't use, its still overkill, but its clean (seems to be a firemage from the animation but he has blizzard, arcane blast and, frostlance etc. on the hotbar.)
I never used any UI mods past DBM/Titanbar and one action-bar was -always- enough (not counting the right bar for food, mount, portals and teleports as mage)
I can count my spells from memory as arcane mage: arcane blast, arcane barrage, arcane missiles, arcane armor, slow, sheep, arcane brilliance, bubble, iceblock, blizzard
thats 10 abilities
Nobody in his right mind has all his spells out.
If you only need to use 10 of your 40 of your abbilities to be efficient then the gamdesign has failed. In more mature MMO's like Lotro there are classes with 40 skills and people use all of them....
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Weird, dont remember WoW being this cluttered...oh right it isnt. Love how that WoW screenshot has someone putting the same skill 3 times on his hotbar.
You do have 48 buttons in the bottom center of the screen and 15 to the left
Looks pretty clean, I don't like the black bar at the bottom though.
I hope they put in more UI customizability in TOR, possibly through player made mods.
Given the fact that the guy has -all- the spells on screen, even the ones he doesn't use, its still overkill, but its clean (seems to be a firemage from the animation but he has blizzard, arcane blast and, frostlance etc. on the hotbar.)
I never used any UI mods past DBM/Titanbar and one action-bar was -always- enough (not counting the right bar for food, mount, portals and teleports as mage)
I can count my spells from memory as arcane mage: arcane blast, arcane barrage, arcane missiles, arcane armor, slow, sheep, arcane brilliance, bubble, iceblock, blizzard
thats 10 abilities
Nobody in his right mind has all his spells out.
If you only need to use 10 of your 40 of your abbilities to be efficient then the gamdesign has failed. In more mature MMO's like Lotro there are classes with 40 skills and people use all of them....
I only need 10 for the arcane mage, 10 more for the fire mage, 10 more for the ice-mage. Its the other spells dont dissapear if i play a specific built. There is only one build i can play at a time, even with dual-spec.
This has zero to do with maturity, i will never play a game with 40 skills that are all accessible and viable at the same time, because i find that to be unnecessarily complicated.
I know this would be unthinkable to most of you, but you are allowed to put your hand on the mouse and actually click a skill. It is possible to be pretty good in these games (where twitch doesn't matter quite as much) to click a skill with your mouse.
IMO A good game design should focus around 10 abilities per class at the most, and even then at the end of the day it will come down to much less than that any how, look at how many abilities WoW gathered during its expansions before the cataclysm clean up, no one really used them, each class had a rotation of about 3-5 abilities + 1-2 situational/utli's(except maybe locks...)
The sheer amount of abilities is another indicator to me that that game i just not ready for release, they are hoping that that playerbase will help them to refine the amount of abilities(because some of them were just sick, like the Shadow's backstab, or the Agent's snipe in PVP..) which is fine and all, but it needs to be done before launch not after it, i know that major class changes are a part of every MMO's heck WoW did 180 on most of it's classes during the first 3-4 years, but it did it very gradually, and even then allot of people were annoyed at allot of the class changes, especially when it came to role creeping.
What? A good game design focuses on 10 abilities? That's a horrible design.
First of all, your assumption that this supposed "glut" of abilities is an indication that they aren't ready for launch is absolutely unfounded. It makes zero sense. And having more abilities is never a bad thing. It's a good thing, as long as they are all useful in certain situations. That seems to be the case in TOR.
Secondly, and listen up to this because it's important, there aren't more abilities in TOR than other games. It just seems like it because they frontload them to you early in the game because they want to give you as many tools possible early to feel heroic. Once you get into mid to late levels, the amount of abilities you get really starts to slow down quite a bit and most of your stuff is just up-ranked from there.
Third, you're wrong about WoW. Any game that relies on a rotation of 3-5 abilities is using a bad system. Players should have plenty of tools in their toolbox, and plenty of things to do in different situations. This is what makes fights interesting and fun. Excuse Bioware for not wanting you to just spam the same 3 buttons for every single fight.
Sorry, I don't agree with any of your post. The only thing I wish Bioware would do in order to help us handle all the abilities is give us more UI customization for more action bars. But I'm buying a programable mouse for this game, so that shouldn't be an issue for me.
Seemed like they didn't have a lot of repeatable nonsense imo. There were 'similar' skills but it worked out far better than games that have you pre-buff seven times just to do your bomb skill or heal. That kind of gameplay is stupidly ridiculous if you ask me.
I did not reach max but I was happy with the amount of skills I had at various levels and thought they were the right amount. I also doubt this game will have as many skills on your screen as say WoW or Rift does, which is their chief competition.
So if someone thinks TOR has 'way too many abilities', they better stay far away from WoW and Rift which make ToR seem like League of Legends skill-amount wise. They better not start having tons of addons in this game because when my screen starts to look like this:
WoW:
Rift:
It may be time for me to look elsewhere for another game.
God what a mess... It's been about a year since i've played WoW but thats a very very bad UI setup
you dont need to use all the available abilities. Actually using all of them and paying for their update in terms of trainning can be somehow expensive later in game.
from those n abilities, you can pick 10 or so, and build your character around them together with your playstyle.
your energy/ammo/stamina aint infinite, so one way or the other, the game almost forces you to specialize and choose what skills you will want to play with..
you dont need to use all the available abilities. Actually using all of them and paying for their update in terms of trainning can be somehow expensive later in game.
from those n abilities, you can pick 10 or so, and build your character around them together with your playstyle.
your energy/ammo/stamina aint infinite, so one way or the other, the game almost forces you to specialize and choose what skills you will want to play with..
And thats the whole point, the game should reward attention and choice, not tell you here's a bunch of stuff push it...
No reactive abilties, no combo's, no action based combat it's 2011 MMO's should evolve..
What? A good game design focuses on 10 abilities? That's a horrible design.
Remind me quickly, how many abilities could be used, at any given time for any given class, in the critically acclaimed Bioware hit, Dragon Age Origins?
How many abilities could be used, at any given time for any given class, in KOTOR? Jade Empire? Baldurs Gate?
Originally posted by Fdzzaigl Originally posted by AdamTM
Weird, dont remember WoW being this cluttered...oh right it isnt. Love how that WoW screenshot has someone putting the same skill 3 times on his hotbar.
You do have 48 buttons in the bottom center of the screen and 15 to the left Looks pretty clean, I don't like the black bar at the bottom though.
I hope they put in more UI customizability in TOR, possibly through player made mods. Plus, he's a Arcane mage lol.
It's not like he actually has to look at anything but the boss and listen for bells and whistles from DBM.
Look at how many swordmenship schools are there, even for simmilar weapons in the same~ enviorment, europe has multiple and very destigutive swordmenship styles even tho allot of the weapons were of simmilar size and shape. Some styles revolved around hitting the enemy with the hilt and the corss of the sword and not with the blade, some required the weapon to be held by the blade it self with a gauntlet, and what do you know some styles actually envolved holding the hilt of the sword! all of this could be and should be exposed to the player in a diffrent way than another button.. weather by his chioice of the class it self, by training a specific skill or by leveling with a specific weapon. The fighting it self with swords and other melee weapons was much more limited that what you think, there are only a hanfull of moves which were found to be effective for each weapon and figthing style, and people who trained trained to use a very specific weapon in a very speicifc style untill they became very good at it.
Ok I agree with you that another combat option (call it an ability) could or maybe even should be presented or accessible in another way than another button. This is more about HMI design, not class design. SWTOR clearly has an UI issue. But denying me those options by permanent class choices is IMHO wrong.
This is like saying in Karate you must only use up to 6 different techniques in any given situation and when you get your next belt you may choose one ability out of 5. Or the GW1 system translated to martial arts, before the fight i have to secretly declare to the jury which 8 of however many techniques I will use and only use these. This is stupid! This only limits truly skilled and experienced fighters to the limit of a noobie.
I am glad that you used the comparison to swordmanship, but you are wrong. This is not how it works. It's not just hit 1-8, guard 1-8 and some footwork. If I am a master swordsman or a karate master, i have 40+ cards in my sleeves while I only have 5-10 as a noob. And yes the master abilities are much more situational. Of course as a noob you learn the basics which are applicable to 90% of the fighting. And between unexperienced combatants you will only see these. Even between a noob and an experienced fighter you might only see these, since the master is still quicker and more precise and thus beats the noob with the same (but better trained) abilities.
But fights between experienced players are different. I have seen some. You might still see the usual 1-10 basic moves, but suddenly you will see move 6 countered by trick 17, which is counter-countered by trick 29, wich is counter-counter-countered by trick 36. Basic attacks with move 1-10 suddenly do not work anymore at all since the master already has a counter and potentially a countercountercounter for your countercounter in mind. This is what makes him a master.
I rather want games to allow for such masters by offering a wide range of (situatioal) options, than dumbing down everyone to a noob level, because 10 abilities out of 40 are used 90% of the time. That not everything is used with the same frequency is normal. You know the 80-20 rule?
The skills you take into the battle should be defined by that that makes sense: your loadout (which should of course be limited, so that you can not have 6 gears in your backpack). With a shield you can block all kind of attacks, with a sword you can only try to deflect them. With an axe you can catch the opponents blade or pull his shield. With a polehammer you can try to catch his legs and you have bonuses vs. armored opponents. A 2handed sword gives you far more reach and cutting power, but with a short sword you can do quick stabbing attacks and work better in a tight formation. A buckler gives you limited prottection, but also quick reactions and quite some nice moves. A round shield gives you more protection and partially covers your mates in a shieldwall. A tower shield protects even more, but limits your ability to sprint, since your legs bounce against the shield when running. But you only have 2 hand which can hold a one handed weapon, another or a shield or a 2handed weapon. maybe you have a belt and scabbards/quiver at each your sides which allow you to carry small or medium weapon, small ones at your breastbelt (daggers) and 2 large ones like shield and bow on your back. This is it. You can not carry more or your would be unable to fight. Also the more you carry, the slower you get so more options also have a price. But if you equip sword and shield you can execute any abilities you have learned for sword and shield and not just 50% of them. You might switch the sword for an axe quickly, and use axe or axe+shield techniques, but that's it.
This makes sense. Giving me a grenade ability only if i have e gren in my beltslot or a grenade launcher makes sense. But limiting me before the fight to suddenly making me forget half my skills does not.
EQ2 was really bad at this. 40+ skills, most of which were very similar. More choice isn't always better, there's a point where it becomes clutter. Exactly why I hate buying clothes these days, the amount of choice is ridiculous.
Yup, this is one of the things i hate more of SWTOR.
Way to many useless skills, id rather have 7 or 8 where aim, positioning and dodging is more important, especially in a game with guns.
But it's still ok, played many mmos with tons of useless crap abilities, they are just that, filler crap that tries to make the combat more complex than what it is.
I would also love to see the great animations without having to look all the time to the skill bar thanks to the global cool down, but that's just me.
"Esport with tournaments is for hardcore pvp'rs that want to be competitive. Openworld PVP with ganking and griefing is for casuals that just wants their pvp mixed with pve from time to time." otacu
I can use 40 keybinds effectivly with 1-0, alt, ctrl, and shift. Thats not counting other easily accessable keys such as q, e, r, t, g, h ect.
That said the fact that I can use thoes keys doesnt justify having to if so many of the skills basically repeat themselves. If I was going to play swtor I would simply see which ones are basically the same skill and decide which I like the animations best on and use thoes lol.
Alot of the abilities are situational; can only be used if the enemy(or you) is in a certain state, or is most effective if you've stacked X ability.
I get where the OP is coming from, though I'm not sure if it's really so much about having too many abilities as it is having an interface that can't keep up.
Much as I love the game, it kinda takes a step or two back in terms of toolbar staring, for me, anyway. Part of this is because I have to use my mouse to click on some abilities while using the number keys on others.
What? A good game design focuses on 10 abilities? That's a horrible design.
Remind me quickly, how many abilities could be used, at any given time for any given class, in the critically acclaimed Bioware hit, Dragon Age Origins?
How many abilities could be used, at any given time for any given class, in KOTOR? Jade Empire? Baldurs Gate?
40?
Every game you just named is a single player game. What could have possibly have to do with an MMO? You are comparing apples to oranges.
I can use 40 keybinds effectivly with 1-0, alt, ctrl, and shift. Thats not counting other easily accessable keys such as q, e, r, t, g, h ect.
That said the fact that I can use thoes keys doesnt justify having to if so many of the skills basically repeat themselves. If I was going to play swtor I would simply see which ones are basically the same skill and decide which I like the animations best on and use thoes lol.
Alot of the abilities are situational; can only be used if the enemy(or you) is in a certain state, or is most effective if you've stacked X ability.
I get where the OP is coming from, though I'm not sure if it's really so much about having too many abilities as it is having an interface that can't keep up.
Much as I love the game, it kinda takes a step or two back in terms of toolbar staring, for me, anyway. Part of this is because I have to use my mouse to click on some abilities while using the number keys on others.
And this is diffrent from other mmos how? Sorry ive played wow 6 yrs and played a number of others for a short period of time and they all are like that.
And this is diffrent from other mmos how? Sorry ive played wow 6 yrs and played a number of others for a short period of time and they all are like that.
Via ctrl-alt-shift keys in LotRO, for one. If TOR uses this for its other bars, it doesn't seem to make any indication.
Comments
Again it's not about what to do, i can arrange my hotbars, keybind skills and arrange keygroups just fine, but when a large number of skills is pointless and redundant, and when there is no reaction / abilitiy comobination to speak of that to me screams just unacceptable for a game which is released in late 2011.
The first GW was about picking the best skill combo to work for you and your team(WoW's talent 2.0 is quite close to that), GW2 has class and cross class combos, and various other mechanics. ToR seems to be WoW with out autoattack, and maybe without the DPS spreadhseets for now, but those will come too, there is no other way of getting around them with a game which is only based on flat abilties and numbers.
Having reaction abilities and combination is not hack and slash, honestly ToR is more hack and slash than many so called H&S, The witcher has a great combat system which is both deep and chalengin, while keep the controls simple... ToR have a out-dated combat system imo which should be made much more engagin if it wants to compete with next-gen MMO's. Im not saying that it should be forced down every one's throat but games like Wild-Star seems to get it you have reactional / action abilties on top of your flat press X to do Y abilties and the game seems to reward you for not getting hit for example by dodging an attack or getting a skill shot while dashing etc`.
Thats some much more intersting than what ToR or what WoW have, and if you dont think so, then sorry its just way too diffrent tastes.
You made this thread and your OP to complain about ability overflow, now you're talking about reactive abilities.
Do you acknowledge that TOR doesn't have too many abilities to handle or what? As for only using 5 abilities in PvE, that's wrong, I personally used more than 5 at a low level (take cover, snipe, explosive probe, rifle shot, ambush, leg shot, debilitate, frag grenade, flashbang, shiv, adrenaline probe,...), depending on the length of the fight.
The IA is a class with little in regards to reactive abilities, but looking through the talent trees, I can see a number of effects triggering from this or that ability, or only being usable when the enemy is in a certain state. Cover itself was pretty much a reactive effect in my case.
The game could use more in terms of abilities that trigger when you block or parry or crit,..., but you shouldn't really pretend like every class has a plethora of those in other games either. TOR could also use more interesting talent trees in combination with that.
Even so, the combat didn't feel unresponsive or even boring, because there were a lot of options for you to use and a lot of effects that you could combine by yourself.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Um... I can use around 40 different keybinds just fine with a regular keyboard. If the game only had 10 abilities per class, it would suck...
Seemed like they didn't have a lot of repeatable nonsense imo. There were 'similar' skills but it worked out far better than games that have you pre-buff seven times just to do your bomb skill or heal. That kind of gameplay is stupidly ridiculous if you ask me.
I did not reach max but I was happy with the amount of skills I had at various levels and thought they were the right amount. I also doubt this game will have as many skills on your screen as say WoW or Rift does, which is their chief competition.
So if someone thinks TOR has 'way too many abilities', they better stay far away from WoW and Rift which make ToR seem like League of Legends skill-amount wise. They better not start having tons of addons in this game because when my screen starts to look like this:
WoW:
Rift:
It may be time for me to look elsewhere for another game.
"TO MICHAEL!"
Weird, dont remember WoW being this cluttered...oh right it isnt. Love how that WoW screenshot has someone putting the same skill 3 times on his hotbar.
You do have 48 buttons in the bottom center of the screen and 15 to the left
Looks pretty clean, I don't like the black bar at the bottom though.
I hope they put in more UI customizability in TOR, possibly through player made mods.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
You cant have to many abilitys, more choices is always better. On the otherhand we shouldnt need outside MODS for anything in this game, and if they are needed I doubt I will play TOR
Mess with the best, Die like the rest
Given the fact that the guy has -all- the spells on screen, even the ones he doesn't use, its still overkill, but its clean (seems to be a firemage from the animation but he has blizzard, arcane blast and, frostlance etc. on the hotbar.)
I never used any UI mods past DBM/Titanbar and one action-bar was -always- enough (not counting the right bar for food, mount, portals and teleports as mage)
I can count my spells from memory as arcane mage: arcane blast, arcane barrage, arcane missiles, arcane armor, slow, sheep, arcane brilliance, bubble, iceblock, blizzard
thats 10 abilities
Nobody in his right mind has all his spells out.
If you only need to use 10 of your 40 of your abbilities to be efficient then the gamdesign has failed. In more mature MMO's like Lotro there are classes with 40 skills and people use all of them....
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
I only need 10 for the arcane mage, 10 more for the fire mage, 10 more for the ice-mage. Its the other spells dont dissapear if i play a specific built. There is only one build i can play at a time, even with dual-spec.
This has zero to do with maturity, i will never play a game with 40 skills that are all accessible and viable at the same time, because i find that to be unnecessarily complicated.
I mean wtf, 40 skills lol.
skills =/= gameplay depth
I know this would be unthinkable to most of you, but you are allowed to put your hand on the mouse and actually click a skill. It is possible to be pretty good in these games (where twitch doesn't matter quite as much) to click a skill with your mouse.
What? A good game design focuses on 10 abilities? That's a horrible design.
First of all, your assumption that this supposed "glut" of abilities is an indication that they aren't ready for launch is absolutely unfounded. It makes zero sense. And having more abilities is never a bad thing. It's a good thing, as long as they are all useful in certain situations. That seems to be the case in TOR.
Secondly, and listen up to this because it's important, there aren't more abilities in TOR than other games. It just seems like it because they frontload them to you early in the game because they want to give you as many tools possible early to feel heroic. Once you get into mid to late levels, the amount of abilities you get really starts to slow down quite a bit and most of your stuff is just up-ranked from there.
Third, you're wrong about WoW. Any game that relies on a rotation of 3-5 abilities is using a bad system. Players should have plenty of tools in their toolbox, and plenty of things to do in different situations. This is what makes fights interesting and fun. Excuse Bioware for not wanting you to just spam the same 3 buttons for every single fight.
Sorry, I don't agree with any of your post. The only thing I wish Bioware would do in order to help us handle all the abilities is give us more UI customization for more action bars. But I'm buying a programable mouse for this game, so that shouldn't be an issue for me.
God what a mess... It's been about a year since i've played WoW but thats a very very bad UI setup
@ the op.
you dont need to use all the available abilities. Actually using all of them and paying for their update in terms of trainning can be somehow expensive later in game.
from those n abilities, you can pick 10 or so, and build your character around them together with your playstyle.
your energy/ammo/stamina aint infinite, so one way or the other, the game almost forces you to specialize and choose what skills you will want to play with..
And thats the whole point, the game should reward attention and choice, not tell you here's a bunch of stuff push it...
No reactive abilties, no combo's, no action based combat it's 2011 MMO's should evolve..
Remind me quickly, how many abilities could be used, at any given time for any given class, in the critically acclaimed Bioware hit, Dragon Age Origins?
How many abilities could be used, at any given time for any given class, in KOTOR? Jade Empire? Baldurs Gate?
40?
You do have 48 buttons in the bottom center of the screen and 15 to the left
Looks pretty clean, I don't like the black bar at the bottom though.
I hope they put in more UI customizability in TOR, possibly through player made mods.
Plus, he's a Arcane mage lol.
It's not like he actually has to look at anything but the boss and listen for bells and whistles from DBM.
"TO MICHAEL!"
Ok I agree with you that another combat option (call it an ability) could or maybe even should be presented or accessible in another way than another button. This is more about HMI design, not class design. SWTOR clearly has an UI issue. But denying me those options by permanent class choices is IMHO wrong.
This is like saying in Karate you must only use up to 6 different techniques in any given situation and when you get your next belt you may choose one ability out of 5. Or the GW1 system translated to martial arts, before the fight i have to secretly declare to the jury which 8 of however many techniques I will use and only use these. This is stupid! This only limits truly skilled and experienced fighters to the limit of a noobie.
I am glad that you used the comparison to swordmanship, but you are wrong. This is not how it works. It's not just hit 1-8, guard 1-8 and some footwork. If I am a master swordsman or a karate master, i have 40+ cards in my sleeves while I only have 5-10 as a noob. And yes the master abilities are much more situational. Of course as a noob you learn the basics which are applicable to 90% of the fighting. And between unexperienced combatants you will only see these. Even between a noob and an experienced fighter you might only see these, since the master is still quicker and more precise and thus beats the noob with the same (but better trained) abilities.
But fights between experienced players are different. I have seen some. You might still see the usual 1-10 basic moves, but suddenly you will see move 6 countered by trick 17, which is counter-countered by trick 29, wich is counter-counter-countered by trick 36. Basic attacks with move 1-10 suddenly do not work anymore at all since the master already has a counter and potentially a countercountercounter for your countercounter in mind. This is what makes him a master.
I rather want games to allow for such masters by offering a wide range of (situatioal) options, than dumbing down everyone to a noob level, because 10 abilities out of 40 are used 90% of the time. That not everything is used with the same frequency is normal. You know the 80-20 rule?
The skills you take into the battle should be defined by that that makes sense: your loadout (which should of course be limited, so that you can not have 6 gears in your backpack). With a shield you can block all kind of attacks, with a sword you can only try to deflect them. With an axe you can catch the opponents blade or pull his shield. With a polehammer you can try to catch his legs and you have bonuses vs. armored opponents. A 2handed sword gives you far more reach and cutting power, but with a short sword you can do quick stabbing attacks and work better in a tight formation. A buckler gives you limited prottection, but also quick reactions and quite some nice moves. A round shield gives you more protection and partially covers your mates in a shieldwall. A tower shield protects even more, but limits your ability to sprint, since your legs bounce against the shield when running. But you only have 2 hand which can hold a one handed weapon, another or a shield or a 2handed weapon. maybe you have a belt and scabbards/quiver at each your sides which allow you to carry small or medium weapon, small ones at your breastbelt (daggers) and 2 large ones like shield and bow on your back. This is it. You can not carry more or your would be unable to fight. Also the more you carry, the slower you get so more options also have a price. But if you equip sword and shield you can execute any abilities you have learned for sword and shield and not just 50% of them. You might switch the sword for an axe quickly, and use axe or axe+shield techniques, but that's it.
This makes sense. Giving me a grenade ability only if i have e gren in my beltslot or a grenade launcher makes sense. But limiting me before the fight to suddenly making me forget half my skills does not.
EQ2 was really bad at this. 40+ skills, most of which were very similar. More choice isn't always better, there's a point where it becomes clutter. Exactly why I hate buying clothes these days, the amount of choice is ridiculous.
It solved by the fact that you don't need to use and or keybind every single ability you have.
Yup, this is one of the things i hate more of SWTOR.
Way to many useless skills, id rather have 7 or 8 where aim, positioning and dodging is more important, especially in a game with guns.
But it's still ok, played many mmos with tons of useless crap abilities, they are just that, filler crap that tries to make the combat more complex than what it is.
I would also love to see the great animations without having to look all the time to the skill bar thanks to the global cool down, but that's just me.
"Esport with tournaments is for hardcore pvp'rs that want to be competitive. Openworld PVP with ganking and griefing is for casuals that just wants their pvp mixed with pve from time to time."
otacu
Alot of the abilities are situational; can only be used if the enemy(or you) is in a certain state, or is most effective if you've stacked X ability.
I get where the OP is coming from, though I'm not sure if it's really so much about having too many abilities as it is having an interface that can't keep up.
Much as I love the game, it kinda takes a step or two back in terms of toolbar staring, for me, anyway. Part of this is because I have to use my mouse to click on some abilities while using the number keys on others.
Every game you just named is a single player game. What could have possibly have to do with an MMO? You are comparing apples to oranges.
And this is diffrent from other mmos how? Sorry ive played wow 6 yrs and played a number of others for a short period of time and they all are like that.
Via ctrl-alt-shift keys in LotRO, for one. If TOR uses this for its other bars, it doesn't seem to make any indication.