My question to the OP is what mmos have you played and enjoyed in the past? When people say that a game is nonthing special I want to know what game did you think was special?
I have yet to try any one game that is "truly special", although I have played many with certain aspects or traits that I thoroughly did enjoy. I suppose I can list them, although this will probably end up being a very incomplete list.
I'll divide the list into Pay2Play and Free2Play.
Pay2Play
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Ultima Online (PRE-TRAMMEL): Probably the closest thing to my most ideal MMORPG. Everything about it has yet to be replicated by any other MMO in today's market. It is now currently a shadow of its former self and is not worth playing.
Dark Ages of Camelot: My first exposure to Realm VS. Realm combat. The game that spoiled me with the concept of laying siege on castles and keeps. (Ironically I got hooked on to PVP because of this game, unlike UO which had no restrictions PVP and PKing)
Star Wars Galaxies (PRE-CU, PRE-NGE): In many ways, this was Ultima Online with space. The problem was it wasn't a true PVP or PK environment, but was sandboxy enough to keep me occupied for quite a while.
Final Fantasy XI: I still don't think any other MMORPG has come close to replicating the party-based, cooperative gameplay in Final Fantasy XI. You relied on your party members to survive, and a White Mage or Warrior/Paladin down would have resulted in a high likelihood of a wipe.
Planetside: This game was 100% PVP. From the very moment you set foot in the game to the very moment you log out, every single second is basically spent for the purposes of PVP. I cannot wait for the sequel. I remember participating in bridge chokepoints with 500+ players on one side and 500+ players on the other. Sheer and utter chaos -- I loved it.
I want to say I enjoyed Anarchy Online and Earth & Beyond but I can't remember anything about my experiences with those games any more. All I remember was enjoying them both thoroughly.
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Free2Play
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Ragnarok Online: I don't know why I played this game as long as I did. It was a very simple game and there frankly isn't much to it. For me this was my first taste of the korean grind. The newer version's War of Emperium is a nice distraction for some larger scale PVP, but isn't what I'm really looking for. After being exposed to so many other games now though, I probably wouldn't ever play this again.
Mabinogi: This was probably the closest experience I could get to Ultima Online that came out in Korea. A lot of choice and options are given to the player, and the combat itself was more than just mashing a skill rotation. Combat involved careful timing, understanding enemy attack patterns, and even positioning. Life skills were numerous, and although the game contained levels, was still skill-based. The only problem was the PVP environment was self contained into arenas and instances, and the reliance of purchasing NX for certain items.
Dungeon Fighter Online: I love 2D side-scrolling beat-em-ups, and this was THE game for me. I love arcade games, and I love the competitive spirit that arcade games foster. The PVP in this game is regarded as some of the best and most competitive in Korea and is a respected and recognized eSport. It's too bad Nexon is running the show here in the West, and it's too bad the game just isn't doing as successfully as it is in Korea.
Uncharted Waters Online: I was a fan of the oldschool Uncharted Waters games for the SNES, and even Sid Meier's Pirates for the PC. This was a nice distraction, and allowed me to focus more on maximizing the economy for once rather than stressing out over combat, while also letting me venture out wherever I wanted for the sake of simple exploration and discovery. I can count on one hand the amount of MMOs I've played that let me purchase, make, or otherwise own a ship and to let me sail it anywhere I wanted. (Of course Ultima Online was one of these games)
Phantasy Star Online Blue Burst (SCHTHACK): An addictive and simple dungeonbased crawler of a multiplayer game. The game uses a centralized town and stages that act like dungeons. In many ways, it very much played like a sci-fi, third-person perspective version of Diablo. I enjoyed it thoroughly and I can easily see myself spending just as long playing PSO2 if they don't screw it up.
Wurm Online: A very, very niche and horrendously buggy mess of a game which still managed to hold my interest for at least a little more than a month. A large focus of the game is its seemingly limitless sandbox focus, where players literally have to go to the extent of paving out a forest, raising dirt, flattening dirt, and gathering wood and other resources to build just the foundation of the beginnings of a house. Finishing just one house in itself was a huge accomplishment, let alone creating a village. Terraforming happens in real time, and most of it is because of the players.
RF Online: I'll admit that a vast majority of this game was a huge turn off for me, although I stuck around just so I could participate in the Chip Wars. Much like Lineage 2, I'm currently finding that this one trick pony does something extremely well, and that's the sense of urgency and chaos you get when participating in mass scale sieges.
Dynasty Warriors Online: I love the Dynasty Warriors series for its mindless and over-the-top action (Despite the amount of negative reviews it gets from "professional critics"). This is just a personal preference, but for the sake of completness I had to include it.
Granado Espada / Sword of the New World: If it's one thing that truly stuck with me after all this time with respect to GE, it was with the music. I loved the soundtrack, and I still listen to it on occasion every now and then. The gameplay itself was very one-tracked in that there wasn't much else to do except fight and grind, however the means by which it did so at least allowed for a nice change of pace. Instead of controlling one character, you controlled a party of 3, and you chose which of those characters served what purpose in your party. It was like being in a party 24/7 and you conducted their actions. It played almost more like an RTS rather than an MMORPG. It also had open PVP/PK systems. (By the way, I bought this when it was still pay2play. I even still own the original retail boxes)
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I'm sure I'm missing several other titles, but I just can't think of them at this current moment in time.
edit: included Granado Espada
--- Every game in existence has some form of repetition. It depends on the game developer as to how entertaining that repetition really is. --- Sandbox >= Single Player Games >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Theme Park --- If you think Time Spent == Skill, then this game is for you: www.ProgressQuest.com
most havent tried the game when it came out but have seen or know people that played it and for a long time this was a very popular game (yes even in america)the issue back then was on two front lag and huge amount of time to reach end game,when wow came out this game lost a lot of appeal.one thing you will have to do tho you cant just set your computer like in wow and expect smooth game play you will have to set your computer to the recommandation of ncsoft cause lot of tool they use are xp era or pre xp era!aside from that this is a cool game(a bit too grindy for my taste )
Honestly to me this game is so special because what you do means something. There are concequences to your actions. For example if you chose to use your freedom and kill a random guy for no real reason and that guy just happens to be an alt of someone belonging to a powerful clan that person could possibly put you or your clan on kill on site notice. The most polite society is a society that knows that what they do will in some way matter. Bad things happen to people who don't think about consequences.
On the other hand if your a power hungry despot you can make/join a super powerful guild that people WILL make people step softly around you. You recieve taxes from whatever areas you control and really have the choice of being the nice guys or the alliance that everyone hates but have yet to be able to do something about it. Generally these last far less long than the benign alliances but I have experienced being under control by such people. The policical climate is always in flux. It generally pays to be liked. This game is not the same as other games. You can't get the same feeling of belonging when the game dictates what side in a conflict you are in.. or even if you chose to stay neutral.
As many have said you have to dig deeper and look past what has become the norm here in the west and elsewhere. If you do this game REALLY delivers. Your a crafter? Guess what the economy is almost entirely run by crafters. The best gear will be what you make. Even raids are at most on par with what you make. This game really is the wild west when it comes to crafting and playing the market. Maybe not quite as much as it was a month ago but it still is.
Simply put the more you put into it the more you will get out of it... The rewards here for such dedication are some of if not THE best in the industry(trust me I looked). The last thing I'm going to comment about is how much easier leveling is in this game compared to what it used to be. The previous comment about needing to kill 100 mobs for 1% at least 76 is WAY wrong. Right now I need to kill 10 for 1% and complete 1 daily quest for 20%. It was a true statement in the past but now? No way. Still have have no idea how it's going to be 85+ it may be true there but seriously who cares. All mmos are a grind in some way but not every mmo is as different as Lineage is. At the very least it will be a very long time until you enter a gear treadmill.(shudders I hate those) Maybe it's true that you have to experience it to really understand.. but if you do you will not regret your time in this game.
You have lots to say about the game but what level are you?
You are calling art and poetry a grind.....
I hate to be the one to tell you this...but thats what we do in l2...we grind....but its not *mindless* *or* basic without skill* its actually very intense and a simple mistake can set you back hours if you die at higher levels... Lineage 2 only becomes epic when you are high level and can throw around some weight in pvp.......
you mean you hit mobs? well ... i've seen that :P
are the other pixels your buff bots?
Yes they are my buff bots...i am not able to get a mentor for the really nice buffs because my main is awakened and this is a subclass so they are still important to me to level up but in lineage 2 you dont need lots of accounts to get things done like the past.Just one account is fine...i enjoy the company of my buff bots when i solo..... i talk to them and tea party
Fair points. I, like you, have been waiting for a modern version of Ultima Online since publish 16 (Age of Shadows). Star Wars Galaxies (Pre CU) was ohh so close, but didn't satisfy my thirst for PvP.
The reason I was attracted to Lineage 2 was FFA open world environment. It was the first game since UO that you could evoke some "player justice" on some kill stealing A-Hole or griefer. I started the game with 2 close friends and we played together every day. We were lucky enough to be taken under the wing of an up and comming alliance early in our levels and we had the opprotunity to participate in Raid Boss fights, have a clan hall, and regular castle sieges.
Put short....my experience in the game was a very social one right from the start....and I'm certian that played a HUGE role in me sticking with the game as long as I did despite some of those things you pointed out.
There is no potion making, personal houses, or player generated cities. Combat is fairly straight forward and VERY gear centric. However, there really isn't many options out there that has that wild west feel, that can make simple mondain things like killing monsters exciting.
Arche Age is the only thing I've seen on the radar that attempts to bring back some variety of play and player freedom. Unfortunately (due to the western precident WOW has set), they haven't yet got a publisher for the West. IF we get the game at all, its looking like 2013 at the earliest. L2 is F2P and I can make the same amount of progress putting in an hour or so a day than I did putting in 4-5 a day when the game first launched. I can play the game casually and still get my fix. Like you, its essentially something to hold me over till the next thing comes out....but unfortunately for us traditional MMORPG gamers....the future doesn't look so bright for virtual world MMOs.
It's a lot faster now than it used to be. I got to level 52 in almost 2 days. Super quick compared to the old L2 grind. Quests are actually present and worth it until level 43 now, and there are dailies that give you at least half a level at level 50 and 52. It's changed completely but honestly for the better. We went from 1 server with 3k people logged in 24/7 and the eu server with 2k. to 4 servers pushing 5k 24/7. It worked for them, and I see quite a few people actually getting to higher levels. There aren't many bots from what I can tell, people police that now for some reason, killing entire bot trains with a perma red character. It's nice.
LOL, that is quite a bit different, when I played at launch, and granted, I screwed around some it took me almost 6 months and I was at level 51..... ground the whole way baby....no quests to speak of back in the day.
When it comes to the US I might give it another go as it's the one game I regret not sticking with long enough to reach the real end game that it offers.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
A couple of days ago I was doing the 2nd class transfer quest on my alt to get the mentee certificate on my main, during this quest there are various bosses that only spawn one at a time. When I got to the place ppl were queuin up their chars and when someone skipped the line everyone told them off and one guy even died. This is what makes this game special for me.
A couple of days ago I was doing the 2nd class transfer quest on my alt to get the mentee certificate on my main, during this quest there are various bosses that only spawn one at a time. When I got to the place ppl were queuin up their chars and when someone skipped the line everyone told them off and one guy even died. This is what makes this game special for me.
It's a lot faster now than it used to be. I got to level 52 in almost 2 days. Super quick compared to the old L2 grind. Quests are actually present and worth it until level 43 now, and there are dailies that give you at least half a level at level 50 and 52. It's changed completely but honestly for the better. We went from 1 server with 3k people logged in 24/7 and the eu server with 2k. to 4 servers pushing 5k 24/7. It worked for them, and I see quite a few people actually getting to higher levels. There aren't many bots from what I can tell, people police that now for some reason, killing entire bot trains with a perma red character. It's nice.
LOL, that is quite a bit different, when I played at launch, and granted, I screwed around some it took me almost 6 months and I was at level 51..... ground the whole way baby....no quests to speak of back in the day.
When it comes to the US I might give it another go as it's the one game I regret not sticking with long enough to reach the real end game that it offers.
Another thing to point out is the difference in gear & consumables.
I remember at launch, if you used Soul Shots or Spirit Shots on every swing, you were probably LOOSING money, despite all the gold and item drops you recieved. If you were an average player that didn't ebay for gold, you only used SS & SpS sparingly. And even then, it was near impossible to save up enough money to buy the next grade of gear once you were eligible.
Now, you're GIVEN mid D grade gear for FREE once you hit lvl 20 AND a ton of SS & Blessed Spirit Shots. By the time you hit 40, you're GIVEN mid C grade gear for FREE AND you're also given a ton of SS & Blessed Spirit Shots. In addition, you're also given TOP C Grade Armor & Weapon that lasts 30 days. Same happens at B grade and so on up to S Grade.
I haven't had to spend a single gold coin on buying Spirit or Soul Shots...OR Armor or Weapons so far...and I'm at lvl 49. I made it to that level in just a few days of playing...at a couple of hours a day.
In addition, the class change quests take a FRACTION of the time it used to take. I remember the old 2nd class change quests would take me atleast 2-3 hours of running around to complete. Now its all of like 30 minutes.
And if that weren't good enough, Pouches that contain level appropriate gear drop VERY often from killing random monsters. In about an hour of farming monsters near Aden at lvl 48.....I picked up a pouch that gave me a pair of top B grade boots (bound...but who cares, if your going to use them)
You have lots to say about the game but what level are you?
You are calling art and poetry a grind.....
I hate to be the one to tell you this...but thats what we do in l2...we grind....but its not *mindless* *or* basic without skill* its actually very intense and a simple mistake can set you back hours if you die at higher levels... Lineage 2 only becomes epic when you are high level and can throw around some weight in pvp.......
I played Lineage 2 back when I was a fat kid with no life outside of my house.
It's skilless, end of story. And if you think Lineage 2 is intense; I'd hate to see what happens to you mentally if you ever got into extreme sports:
This is what intensity is at nearly it's absolute maximum level.
I got to 77/76 from Prelude to Interlude of about 3 years before quitting. Now within a week I am 73 on my Spellsinger and should be 76 in another day. It certainly is faster and I'm kinda nolifing it atm (off work). They even hand you a weapon at 76 with SA and +4 enchant and say "hey use this for 90 days to help you get a better one."
Anything higher than 76 is supposed to be a challenge though as they remove your adventurer buffs and tell you to find your place in the new world.
This game for me is the last surviving old school style mmo. It got difficulty, open world to explore with scale and size that feel right. This game is not for the themepark/instant gratificatier club.
For me L2 is currently one of the best mmo the market have to offer right now.
A couple of days ago I was doing the 2nd class transfer quest on my alt to get the mentee certificate on my main, during this quest there are various bosses that only spawn one at a time. When I got to the place ppl were queuin up their chars and when someone skipped the line everyone told them off and one guy even died. This is what makes this game special for me.
You have lots to say about the game but what level are you?
You are calling art and poetry a grind.....
I hate to be the one to tell you this...but thats what we do in l2...we grind....but its not *mindless* *or* basic without skill* its actually very intense and a simple mistake can set you back hours if you die at higher levels... Lineage 2 only becomes epic when you are high level and can throw around some weight in pvp.......
I think I know exactly where you are in that vid... and oh how I hate that spot... the respawns can be a bitch lol.
Well... then again, I wasn't on a nuker that could one-shot everything either :-p
Regarding the OP.... I completely understand where you're coming from with your impressions because I've been there myself and have heard the same impressions from myriad others. So, I don't blame you for the impression you have, nor will I "flame" you for it.
The thing I find about Lineage 2 or, indeed, most any open FFA PvP MMO is that it's never about the PvE. The PvE is there, certainly. You can grind mobs. You can quest, etc. etc. But all of that is really a means to an end, not an end in itself. If your impression comes entirely from PvE, then yes.. it's going to seem very boring and one-dimensional because, frankly, you're only experiencing 1 dimension of the game - and not even its real "core" one at that.
I think the best way you can get a true and complete understanding for what L2 is and what makes it special (to those who feel that way about it anyway) is to experience what it's like to be in a clan that's at war with multiple other clans. To be involved in an Alliance who is helping each other (or even another clan) wrest control of a castle from another clan.... or helping to defend one already under their control. The shifting of human politics and the drama (mostly the good kind) that arises from it... the unlikely ad hoc alliances that form out of unusual circumstances... It's all so dynamic and ever-changing that you can just about get a grasp on what's going on, and suddenly everything's changed.
Every time I'd come back to game and re-connect with my clan, the first thing I'd ask was "So what have I missed since I'm away?" And there would always be an earfull... new wars, new clans/alliances... the comings and goings of notable players... which actually brings me to something I rarely *ever* see in MMOs these days.
Lineage 2 is one of the few remaining MMOs where your reputation matters. Your actions follow you, for better or worse. Things really can have a chain reaction in that game... especially when you get into the political aspects of it.
Emotions can run high in L2... and it's amazing to see what comes of it when they do.
So, when I think about it, THAT is what L2 is all about, and THAT is what many people never get to experience... which is unfortunate. If they did, there would be that much more to talk about.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
This game for me is the last surviving old school style mmo. It got difficulty, open world to explore with scale and size that feel right. This game is not for the themepark/instant gratificatier club.
For me L2 is currently one of the best mmo the market have to offer right now.
This is how I feel about it as well. The other aspect of Lineage ][ that's special for me is the feeling of combat. It's difficult to explain and just a personal opinion, but I feel far more engaged and involved in both PvE & PvP not so much in its mechanics but how it feels while fighting.
I've always been a big fan of this game and find the decisions in going F2P and increasing the speed of leveling, drops, etc., very smart and appropriate as L2 is an end game now and one that even new players can enjoy in a reasonable period of time.
ps: That youtube video linked to Gaming Etiquette in L2 is priceless. lol
-CC
"Lately it occurs to me, what a long, strange trip it's been". -Hunter
The new tutorial zone and the easy exp quests from level 1 - 75 really doesn't do the game justice at all. Neither does the new PK system which essentially creates a newbie "safe zone" since low level characters won't dare to PK and have to deal with the increased penalty.
Lineage 2 back in the earlier Chronicles (c1 c2 c3) gave me that sense of accomplishment like games such as Demon or Dark Souls does for many people because it was much more challenging.
Before you pretty much started with the clothes on your back, no free equipments handed to you, you had to earn every adena to buy the gear you needed, and also there wasn't enough SP to learn every skill so you had to choose carefully. Higher grade gear had to be crafted from gathering lots of different materials all over the game world.
No free buffs, so either you just stuck with your own self buffs (if you had any), look for someone and ask for buffs (might cost ya), or buy some items that gave you small buffs.
Lack of good equip and buffs means mobs were much tougher than they are now, so it was actually challenging. You had to do various quests to earn enough adena, and class change quests were much longer and some were chain quests.
On top of all this there would be regular PvP/Pks even at low lvl so you had to watch your back.
Everything I've listed above is pretty much gone from the level 1- 75 experience now as they spoon-feed you everything you need to lvl up faster to focus on their late-end game "awakening" experience, so it isn't surprising that lower levels feel so dull, generic, no sense of accomplishment (which I feel so too atm).
If you really wanna give Lineage 2 a go I'd say at least get a char to 76+ since the game's focus is on later level contents.
The new tutorial zone and the easy exp quests from level 1 - 75 really doesn't do the game justice at all. Neither does the new PK system which essentially creates a newbie "safe zone" since low level characters won't dare to PK and have to deal with the increased penalty.
Lineage 2 back in the earlier Chronicles (c1 c2 c3) gave me that sense of accomplishment like games such as Demon or Dark Souls does for many people because it was much more challenging.
Before you pretty much started with the clothes on your back, no free equipments handed to you, you had to earn every adena to buy the gear you needed, and also there wasn't enough SP to learn every skill so you had to choose carefully. Higher grade gear had to be crafted from gathering lots of different materials all over the game world.
No free buffs, so either you just stuck with your own self buffs (if you had any), look for someone and ask for buffs (might cost ya), or buy some items that gave you small buffs.
Lack of good equip and buffs means mobs were much tougher than they are now, so it was actually challenging. You had to do various quests to earn enough adena, and class change quests were much longer and some were chain quests.
On top of all this there would be regular PvP/Pks even at low lvl so you had to watch your back.
Everything I've listed above is pretty much gone from the level 1- 75 experience now as they spoon-feed you everything you need to lvl up faster to focus on their late-end game "awakening" experience, so it isn't surprising that lower levels feel so dull, generic, no sense of accomplishment (which I feel so too atm).
If you really wanna give Lineage 2 a go I'd say at least get a char to 76+ since the game's focus is on later level contents.
I started playing L2 during open beta thru C3 and I can identify with some of what you said. However, the level cap isn't 60 anymore....its 99. And to compete in the Olympiad, you have to subclass (starting over at lvl 40). In addition, there is room for 2 or 3 sublcasses per toon. You have to have some way to get people fast tracked into those later "end game" levels.
While the leveling process in L2 is VERY much linear....the player interaction is very much sandbox (with the factionless FFA pvp system). In order for sandbox environments to thrive, you need PEOPLE. L2 once had a dozen or so servers...and was whittled down to only TWO prior to the last update. Considering the game is so group dependent at later levels.....you need new blood infused in the system if you're able to sustain a satisfactory endgame experience for those folks that have put in years and years of time into the game. The changes were neccessary.
Also, I think a lot of people miss that this game was originally primarily developed and designed for the Eastern audience. In the early days of L2, there was a lot of strife between the Western & Eastern communities during the development of all the expansions. Game mechanics were being changed to balance the game play for the Eastern players (that were MUCH more guild / alliance focused) which made it VERY tough on the Western audence that prefered to solo and hunt in smaller groups.
Now that NCWest is running the show, we have a game more tailored to the Western audience....which means more people playing. Making the leveling process easier for games like WOW (where leveling IS the game) I think cheapens that experience. L2 has always been about endgame social interaction.....and as such, getting people to the last 20 levels ASAP I think will get some fresh blood into the castle sieges & territory wars.
And by the way.....I've seen more PvP & PKs on the new Shillien server (at low levels by the way) in the last week than I seen on Chronos in the few months leading up to the expansion.
Op, I think the problem is that you are not seeing the forest from the trees.
The game has traditional grind mechanics and the "themepark" mechanics are a new thing as it never had this component.
what you are missing is being part of an active clan and taking part in the world.Being part of the politics or just being "the bad guys" or "the good guys". Or something in between.
Or, being a pk'er and trying to harass players. or...
learning the economy and being a crafter and selling mats and making money,... or
well, anything you want.
This game is about player interaction. All this leveling stuff is necessary but it's not "the game". It's essentially method of getting you out into the world, gaining power while you find your way in the world.
So tell us what you want to do in this world and we will give you advice on how to start.
Now its been many years since I played, but much of what you're speaking about above as being the fun stuff really only comes into its own at the upper levels, and back in the day it was a long, long grind to get to those upper levels.
They say it's improved some, but how much really?
Well I played L2 back in BETA and a few months after and the grind was horrible. After reading about the new changes and less grind I was very excited to try it ont again. I never could get high enough lvl to participate in the endgame "fun" stuff and always was wishing and hoping they would eventually make this game easier to lvl. Well they finally did it but I'm thinking they might have "overdid it. From what I have learned from talking to fellow players the game has lost a lot of it's complexity now. Crafting is pretty much useless from what I have heard. Still dunno about the endgame yet only been playing a week or 2 but I'm already lvl 34ish and that is higher than I ever got in months of playing from the early days. Guess time will tell but so far , at least for me there is just something about the game that I find calling me to play more and more. Can't quite put my finger on what it is but so far I am liking it more and more. I am in a really good clan and that helps a lot. Guess time will tell if the fun continues.....Keeping my fingers crossed....
The new tutorial zone and the easy exp quests from level 1 - 75 really doesn't do the game justice at all. Neither does the new PK system which essentially creates a newbie "safe zone" since low level characters won't dare to PK and have to deal with the increased penalty.
Lineage 2 back in the earlier Chronicles (c1 c2 c3) gave me that sense of accomplishment like games such as Demon or Dark Souls does for many people because it was much more challenging.
Before you pretty much started with the clothes on your back, no free equipments handed to you, you had to earn every adena to buy the gear you needed, and also there wasn't enough SP to learn every skill so you had to choose carefully. Higher grade gear had to be crafted from gathering lots of different materials all over the game world.
No free buffs, so either you just stuck with your own self buffs (if you had any), look for someone and ask for buffs (might cost ya), or buy some items that gave you small buffs.
Lack of good equip and buffs means mobs were much tougher than they are now, so it was actually challenging. You had to do various quests to earn enough adena, and class change quests were much longer and some were chain quests.
On top of all this there would be regular PvP/Pks even at low lvl so you had to watch your back.
Everything I've listed above is pretty much gone from the level 1- 75 experience now as they spoon-feed you everything you need to lvl up faster to focus on their late-end game "awakening" experience, so it isn't surprising that lower levels feel so dull, generic, no sense of accomplishment (which I feel so too atm).
If you really wanna give Lineage 2 a go I'd say at least get a char to 76+ since the game's focus is on later level contents.
Question: How is the gameplay after lvl 70 nowdays? Did they ruin that as well or is it worth playing to the endgame lvls in L2? I always wanted to be able to participate in all that cool looking stuff I saw and drooled over in the videos I watched from the early days. Please tell me that they at least kept the castle seiges and territory wars for endgame and that people get involved in all that on a mass scale as it was intended or am I just wasting my time trying to lvl up ASAP to see?
Question: How is the gameplay after lvl 70 nowdays? Did they ruin that as well or is it worth playing to the endgame lvls in L2? I always wanted to be able to participate in all that cool looking stuff I saw and drooled over in the videos I watched from the early days. Please tell me that they at least kept the castle seiges and territory wars for endgame and that people get involved in all that on a mass scale as it was intended or am I just wasting my time trying to lvl up ASAP to see?
85+ : Dailys and alot of group content on daily format too. Better be in a active clan or at least have a nice friend list.
Now, having a active clan can make a huge diference between having fun in end game or not and depends how many hours u play each day.
I play around 3 hours and is impossible to do all dailys activitys in-game, the group ones.
About war, things are still the same. Every 15 days at weekends war hapens. I dont know wich is the minimum lvl to participate but try this:
Go to a town, Dion for example and look for "terriotry manager" or "captain" (dont remember) and try to registe in any war as a mercenary.
When war start just go to a castle, Aden is cool, attack and have fun watching. In the end you will be reward with territory badges. Do this evey 15 days, you going to need that badges.
I understand and share what Sovrath said and I understand too that very few people can understand it.
Only people and of course not all that was in the launch of L2 and played enough time can understand what this game was for a fortunate group of mmos players.
I was in the open beta in Hindemith and played more or less with no break till C4-C5 can’t remember very well.
That time was the best time by so far I got in an online game. It was a wonderful experience and today I know it’s not going to be repeated. I’m back in Lineage2 but probably I’m not going to be there for long.
What made the experience unrepeatable was a conjunction of things.
But in my point of view, what I feel, four of them were key points.
First at those times (and only at those times) you get in the real endgame at level 1 (endgame concept got no sense in the first times of L2).
Second the game was really hard (in terms of what do you need to do to achieve the most humble goal).
Third you were forced to cooperate with the other players to be able to progress and, more than this, to play.
Fourth a real competition, open PvP with rules to moderate the abuse, open economy, no instances where to hide. The competition was not about more or less accurate ranks or speeds. The competition was for the land for the power, minute by minute against your enemies. And your enemies were not only the clan that was in war with your clan. The party disputing your room in the grinding field, the raid disputing the right to kill the boss, … . All of them friends and enemies were the community that made the game. This community progressed together, friends and enemies changing day by day by the actions of the players not by the mechanics of the game.
I have played many games after this Lineage 2 that don’t exist anymore, very good games but different. I couldn’t find any of the above key points in all these new games. You can argue about it but, let me be so arrogant; if you weren’t there you have no clue about what I’m talking.
As you see I’m not talking about combat or crafting mechanics or target or … all those things have nothing to do with what made the retail servers of Lineage 2 pure legends to some of us.
Comments
I have yet to try any one game that is "truly special", although I have played many with certain aspects or traits that I thoroughly did enjoy. I suppose I can list them, although this will probably end up being a very incomplete list.
I'll divide the list into Pay2Play and Free2Play.
Pay2Play
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Ultima Online (PRE-TRAMMEL): Probably the closest thing to my most ideal MMORPG. Everything about it has yet to be replicated by any other MMO in today's market. It is now currently a shadow of its former self and is not worth playing.
Dark Ages of Camelot: My first exposure to Realm VS. Realm combat. The game that spoiled me with the concept of laying siege on castles and keeps. (Ironically I got hooked on to PVP because of this game, unlike UO which had no restrictions PVP and PKing)
Star Wars Galaxies (PRE-CU, PRE-NGE): In many ways, this was Ultima Online with space. The problem was it wasn't a true PVP or PK environment, but was sandboxy enough to keep me occupied for quite a while.
Final Fantasy XI: I still don't think any other MMORPG has come close to replicating the party-based, cooperative gameplay in Final Fantasy XI. You relied on your party members to survive, and a White Mage or Warrior/Paladin down would have resulted in a high likelihood of a wipe.
Planetside: This game was 100% PVP. From the very moment you set foot in the game to the very moment you log out, every single second is basically spent for the purposes of PVP. I cannot wait for the sequel. I remember participating in bridge chokepoints with 500+ players on one side and 500+ players on the other. Sheer and utter chaos -- I loved it.
I want to say I enjoyed Anarchy Online and Earth & Beyond but I can't remember anything about my experiences with those games any more. All I remember was enjoying them both thoroughly.
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Free2Play
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Ragnarok Online: I don't know why I played this game as long as I did. It was a very simple game and there frankly isn't much to it. For me this was my first taste of the korean grind. The newer version's War of Emperium is a nice distraction for some larger scale PVP, but isn't what I'm really looking for. After being exposed to so many other games now though, I probably wouldn't ever play this again.
Mabinogi: This was probably the closest experience I could get to Ultima Online that came out in Korea. A lot of choice and options are given to the player, and the combat itself was more than just mashing a skill rotation. Combat involved careful timing, understanding enemy attack patterns, and even positioning. Life skills were numerous, and although the game contained levels, was still skill-based. The only problem was the PVP environment was self contained into arenas and instances, and the reliance of purchasing NX for certain items.
Dungeon Fighter Online: I love 2D side-scrolling beat-em-ups, and this was THE game for me. I love arcade games, and I love the competitive spirit that arcade games foster. The PVP in this game is regarded as some of the best and most competitive in Korea and is a respected and recognized eSport. It's too bad Nexon is running the show here in the West, and it's too bad the game just isn't doing as successfully as it is in Korea.
Uncharted Waters Online: I was a fan of the oldschool Uncharted Waters games for the SNES, and even Sid Meier's Pirates for the PC. This was a nice distraction, and allowed me to focus more on maximizing the economy for once rather than stressing out over combat, while also letting me venture out wherever I wanted for the sake of simple exploration and discovery. I can count on one hand the amount of MMOs I've played that let me purchase, make, or otherwise own a ship and to let me sail it anywhere I wanted. (Of course Ultima Online was one of these games)
Phantasy Star Online Blue Burst (SCHTHACK): An addictive and simple dungeonbased crawler of a multiplayer game. The game uses a centralized town and stages that act like dungeons. In many ways, it very much played like a sci-fi, third-person perspective version of Diablo. I enjoyed it thoroughly and I can easily see myself spending just as long playing PSO2 if they don't screw it up.
Wurm Online: A very, very niche and horrendously buggy mess of a game which still managed to hold my interest for at least a little more than a month. A large focus of the game is its seemingly limitless sandbox focus, where players literally have to go to the extent of paving out a forest, raising dirt, flattening dirt, and gathering wood and other resources to build just the foundation of the beginnings of a house. Finishing just one house in itself was a huge accomplishment, let alone creating a village. Terraforming happens in real time, and most of it is because of the players.
RF Online: I'll admit that a vast majority of this game was a huge turn off for me, although I stuck around just so I could participate in the Chip Wars. Much like Lineage 2, I'm currently finding that this one trick pony does something extremely well, and that's the sense of urgency and chaos you get when participating in mass scale sieges.
Dynasty Warriors Online: I love the Dynasty Warriors series for its mindless and over-the-top action (Despite the amount of negative reviews it gets from "professional critics"). This is just a personal preference, but for the sake of completness I had to include it.
Granado Espada / Sword of the New World: If it's one thing that truly stuck with me after all this time with respect to GE, it was with the music. I loved the soundtrack, and I still listen to it on occasion every now and then. The gameplay itself was very one-tracked in that there wasn't much else to do except fight and grind, however the means by which it did so at least allowed for a nice change of pace. Instead of controlling one character, you controlled a party of 3, and you chose which of those characters served what purpose in your party. It was like being in a party 24/7 and you conducted their actions. It played almost more like an RTS rather than an MMORPG. It also had open PVP/PK systems. (By the way, I bought this when it was still pay2play. I even still own the original retail boxes)
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I'm sure I'm missing several other titles, but I just can't think of them at this current moment in time.
edit: included Granado Espada
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Every game in existence has some form of repetition. It depends on the game developer as to how entertaining that repetition really is.
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Sandbox >= Single Player Games >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Theme Park
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If you think Time Spent == Skill, then this game is for you:
www.ProgressQuest.com
most havent tried the game when it came out but have seen or know people that played it and for a long time this was a very popular game (yes even in america)the issue back then was on two front lag and huge amount of time to reach end game,when wow came out this game lost a lot of appeal.one thing you will have to do tho you cant just set your computer like in wow and expect smooth game play you will have to set your computer to the recommandation of ncsoft cause lot of tool they use are xp era or pre xp era!aside from that this is a cool game(a bit too grindy for my taste )
100 kill = 1 % xp(.01 % xp per kill)
L2's grind is much more harder than Final Fantasy which is hard to fathom for some. Reachng level 99 will not be an easy feat.
Honestly to me this game is so special because what you do means something. There are concequences to your actions. For example if you chose to use your freedom and kill a random guy for no real reason and that guy just happens to be an alt of someone belonging to a powerful clan that person could possibly put you or your clan on kill on site notice. The most polite society is a society that knows that what they do will in some way matter. Bad things happen to people who don't think about consequences.
On the other hand if your a power hungry despot you can make/join a super powerful guild that people WILL make people step softly around you. You recieve taxes from whatever areas you control and really have the choice of being the nice guys or the alliance that everyone hates but have yet to be able to do something about it. Generally these last far less long than the benign alliances but I have experienced being under control by such people. The policical climate is always in flux. It generally pays to be liked. This game is not the same as other games. You can't get the same feeling of belonging when the game dictates what side in a conflict you are in.. or even if you chose to stay neutral.
As many have said you have to dig deeper and look past what has become the norm here in the west and elsewhere. If you do this game REALLY delivers. Your a crafter? Guess what the economy is almost entirely run by crafters. The best gear will be what you make. Even raids are at most on par with what you make. This game really is the wild west when it comes to crafting and playing the market. Maybe not quite as much as it was a month ago but it still is.
Simply put the more you put into it the more you will get out of it... The rewards here for such dedication are some of if not THE best in the industry(trust me I looked). The last thing I'm going to comment about is how much easier leveling is in this game compared to what it used to be. The previous comment about needing to kill 100 mobs for 1% at least 76 is WAY wrong. Right now I need to kill 10 for 1% and complete 1 daily quest for 20%. It was a true statement in the past but now? No way. Still have have no idea how it's going to be 85+ it may be true there but seriously who cares. All mmos are a grind in some way but not every mmo is as different as Lineage is. At the very least it will be a very long time until you enter a gear treadmill.(shudders I hate those) Maybe it's true that you have to experience it to really understand.. but if you do you will not regret your time in this game.
Yes they are my buff bots...i am not able to get a mentor for the really nice buffs because my main is awakened and this is a subclass so they are still important to me to level up but in lineage 2 you dont need lots of accounts to get things done like the past.Just one account is fine...i enjoy the company of my buff bots when i solo..... i talk to them and tea party
@OP
Fair points. I, like you, have been waiting for a modern version of Ultima Online since publish 16 (Age of Shadows). Star Wars Galaxies (Pre CU) was ohh so close, but didn't satisfy my thirst for PvP.
The reason I was attracted to Lineage 2 was FFA open world environment. It was the first game since UO that you could evoke some "player justice" on some kill stealing A-Hole or griefer. I started the game with 2 close friends and we played together every day. We were lucky enough to be taken under the wing of an up and comming alliance early in our levels and we had the opprotunity to participate in Raid Boss fights, have a clan hall, and regular castle sieges.
Put short....my experience in the game was a very social one right from the start....and I'm certian that played a HUGE role in me sticking with the game as long as I did despite some of those things you pointed out.
There is no potion making, personal houses, or player generated cities. Combat is fairly straight forward and VERY gear centric. However, there really isn't many options out there that has that wild west feel, that can make simple mondain things like killing monsters exciting.
Arche Age is the only thing I've seen on the radar that attempts to bring back some variety of play and player freedom. Unfortunately (due to the western precident WOW has set), they haven't yet got a publisher for the West. IF we get the game at all, its looking like 2013 at the earliest. L2 is F2P and I can make the same amount of progress putting in an hour or so a day than I did putting in 4-5 a day when the game first launched. I can play the game casually and still get my fix. Like you, its essentially something to hold me over till the next thing comes out....but unfortunately for us traditional MMORPG gamers....the future doesn't look so bright for virtual world MMOs.
LOL, that is quite a bit different, when I played at launch, and granted, I screwed around some it took me almost 6 months and I was at level 51..... ground the whole way baby....no quests to speak of back in the day.
When it comes to the US I might give it another go as it's the one game I regret not sticking with long enough to reach the real end game that it offers.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEn_VfoPcW8
this
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Another thing to point out is the difference in gear & consumables.
I remember at launch, if you used Soul Shots or Spirit Shots on every swing, you were probably LOOSING money, despite all the gold and item drops you recieved. If you were an average player that didn't ebay for gold, you only used SS & SpS sparingly. And even then, it was near impossible to save up enough money to buy the next grade of gear once you were eligible.
Now, you're GIVEN mid D grade gear for FREE once you hit lvl 20 AND a ton of SS & Blessed Spirit Shots. By the time you hit 40, you're GIVEN mid C grade gear for FREE AND you're also given a ton of SS & Blessed Spirit Shots. In addition, you're also given TOP C Grade Armor & Weapon that lasts 30 days. Same happens at B grade and so on up to S Grade.
I haven't had to spend a single gold coin on buying Spirit or Soul Shots...OR Armor or Weapons so far...and I'm at lvl 49. I made it to that level in just a few days of playing...at a couple of hours a day.
In addition, the class change quests take a FRACTION of the time it used to take. I remember the old 2nd class change quests would take me atleast 2-3 hours of running around to complete. Now its all of like 30 minutes.
And if that weren't good enough, Pouches that contain level appropriate gear drop VERY often from killing random monsters. In about an hour of farming monsters near Aden at lvl 48.....I picked up a pouch that gave me a pair of top B grade boots (bound...but who cares, if your going to use them)
I played Lineage 2 back when I was a fat kid with no life outside of my house.
It's skilless, end of story. And if you think Lineage 2 is intense; I'd hate to see what happens to you mentally if you ever got into extreme sports:
This is what intensity is at nearly it's absolute maximum level.
I got to 77/76 from Prelude to Interlude of about 3 years before quitting. Now within a week I am 73 on my Spellsinger and should be 76 in another day. It certainly is faster and I'm kinda nolifing it atm (off work). They even hand you a weapon at 76 with SA and +4 enchant and say "hey use this for 90 days to help you get a better one."
Anything higher than 76 is supposed to be a challenge though as they remove your adventurer buffs and tell you to find your place in the new world.
This game for me is the last surviving old school style mmo. It got difficulty, open world to explore with scale and size that feel right. This game is not for the themepark/instant gratificatier club.
For me L2 is currently one of the best mmo the market have to offer right now.
HAHA that exactly which server was that on, it was on Naia for me, there were queues on every mob hehe.
I think I know exactly where you are in that vid... and oh how I hate that spot... the respawns can be a bitch lol.
Well... then again, I wasn't on a nuker that could one-shot everything either :-p
Regarding the OP.... I completely understand where you're coming from with your impressions because I've been there myself and have heard the same impressions from myriad others. So, I don't blame you for the impression you have, nor will I "flame" you for it.
The thing I find about Lineage 2 or, indeed, most any open FFA PvP MMO is that it's never about the PvE. The PvE is there, certainly. You can grind mobs. You can quest, etc. etc. But all of that is really a means to an end, not an end in itself. If your impression comes entirely from PvE, then yes.. it's going to seem very boring and one-dimensional because, frankly, you're only experiencing 1 dimension of the game - and not even its real "core" one at that.
I think the best way you can get a true and complete understanding for what L2 is and what makes it special (to those who feel that way about it anyway) is to experience what it's like to be in a clan that's at war with multiple other clans. To be involved in an Alliance who is helping each other (or even another clan) wrest control of a castle from another clan.... or helping to defend one already under their control. The shifting of human politics and the drama (mostly the good kind) that arises from it... the unlikely ad hoc alliances that form out of unusual circumstances... It's all so dynamic and ever-changing that you can just about get a grasp on what's going on, and suddenly everything's changed.
Every time I'd come back to game and re-connect with my clan, the first thing I'd ask was "So what have I missed since I'm away?" And there would always be an earfull... new wars, new clans/alliances... the comings and goings of notable players... which actually brings me to something I rarely *ever* see in MMOs these days.
Lineage 2 is one of the few remaining MMOs where your reputation matters. Your actions follow you, for better or worse. Things really can have a chain reaction in that game... especially when you get into the political aspects of it.
Emotions can run high in L2... and it's amazing to see what comes of it when they do.
So, when I think about it, THAT is what L2 is all about, and THAT is what many people never get to experience... which is unfortunate. If they did, there would be that much more to talk about.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
This is how I feel about it as well. The other aspect of Lineage ][ that's special for me is the feeling of combat. It's difficult to explain and just a personal opinion, but I feel far more engaged and involved in both PvE & PvP not so much in its mechanics but how it feels while fighting.
I've always been a big fan of this game and find the decisions in going F2P and increasing the speed of leveling, drops, etc., very smart and appropriate as L2 is an end game now and one that even new players can enjoy in a reasonable period of time.
ps: That youtube video linked to Gaming Etiquette in L2 is priceless. lol
-CC
"Lately it occurs to me,
what a long, strange trip it's been". -Hunter
The new tutorial zone and the easy exp quests from level 1 - 75 really doesn't do the game justice at all. Neither does the new PK system which essentially creates a newbie "safe zone" since low level characters won't dare to PK and have to deal with the increased penalty.
Lineage 2 back in the earlier Chronicles (c1 c2 c3) gave me that sense of accomplishment like games such as Demon or Dark Souls does for many people because it was much more challenging.
Before you pretty much started with the clothes on your back, no free equipments handed to you, you had to earn every adena to buy the gear you needed, and also there wasn't enough SP to learn every skill so you had to choose carefully. Higher grade gear had to be crafted from gathering lots of different materials all over the game world.
No free buffs, so either you just stuck with your own self buffs (if you had any), look for someone and ask for buffs (might cost ya), or buy some items that gave you small buffs.
Lack of good equip and buffs means mobs were much tougher than they are now, so it was actually challenging. You had to do various quests to earn enough adena, and class change quests were much longer and some were chain quests.
On top of all this there would be regular PvP/Pks even at low lvl so you had to watch your back.
Everything I've listed above is pretty much gone from the level 1- 75 experience now as they spoon-feed you everything you need to lvl up faster to focus on their late-end game "awakening" experience, so it isn't surprising that lower levels feel so dull, generic, no sense of accomplishment (which I feel so too atm).
If you really wanna give Lineage 2 a go I'd say at least get a char to 76+ since the game's focus is on later level contents.
I started playing L2 during open beta thru C3 and I can identify with some of what you said. However, the level cap isn't 60 anymore....its 99. And to compete in the Olympiad, you have to subclass (starting over at lvl 40). In addition, there is room for 2 or 3 sublcasses per toon. You have to have some way to get people fast tracked into those later "end game" levels.
While the leveling process in L2 is VERY much linear....the player interaction is very much sandbox (with the factionless FFA pvp system). In order for sandbox environments to thrive, you need PEOPLE. L2 once had a dozen or so servers...and was whittled down to only TWO prior to the last update. Considering the game is so group dependent at later levels.....you need new blood infused in the system if you're able to sustain a satisfactory endgame experience for those folks that have put in years and years of time into the game. The changes were neccessary.
Also, I think a lot of people miss that this game was originally primarily developed and designed for the Eastern audience. In the early days of L2, there was a lot of strife between the Western & Eastern communities during the development of all the expansions. Game mechanics were being changed to balance the game play for the Eastern players (that were MUCH more guild / alliance focused) which made it VERY tough on the Western audence that prefered to solo and hunt in smaller groups.
Now that NCWest is running the show, we have a game more tailored to the Western audience....which means more people playing. Making the leveling process easier for games like WOW (where leveling IS the game) I think cheapens that experience. L2 has always been about endgame social interaction.....and as such, getting people to the last 20 levels ASAP I think will get some fresh blood into the castle sieges & territory wars.
And by the way.....I've seen more PvP & PKs on the new Shillien server (at low levels by the way) in the last week than I seen on Chronos in the few months leading up to the expansion.
Well I played L2 back in BETA and a few months after and the grind was horrible. After reading about the new changes and less grind I was very excited to try it ont again. I never could get high enough lvl to participate in the endgame "fun" stuff and always was wishing and hoping they would eventually make this game easier to lvl. Well they finally did it but I'm thinking they might have "overdid it. From what I have learned from talking to fellow players the game has lost a lot of it's complexity now. Crafting is pretty much useless from what I have heard. Still dunno about the endgame yet only been playing a week or 2 but I'm already lvl 34ish and that is higher than I ever got in months of playing from the early days. Guess time will tell but so far , at least for me there is just something about the game that I find calling me to play more and more. Can't quite put my finger on what it is but so far I am liking it more and more. I am in a really good clan and that helps a lot. Guess time will tell if the fun continues.....Keeping my fingers crossed....
@ OP
best past lvl 60/endgame PvP! played l2 for 4.5y
Question: How is the gameplay after lvl 70 nowdays? Did they ruin that as well or is it worth playing to the endgame lvls in L2? I always wanted to be able to participate in all that cool looking stuff I saw and drooled over in the videos I watched from the early days. Please tell me that they at least kept the castle seiges and territory wars for endgame and that people get involved in all that on a mass scale as it was intended or am I just wasting my time trying to lvl up ASAP to see?
IMO L2 is divide in 3 main fases:
1 - 41: Story driven (new content)
42 - 84: Old style grinding mobs, dailys quests, daily instances
85+ : Dailys and alot of group content on daily format too. Better be in a active clan or at least have a nice friend list.
Now, having a active clan can make a huge diference between having fun in end game or not and depends how many hours u play each day.
I play around 3 hours and is impossible to do all dailys activitys in-game, the group ones.
About war, things are still the same. Every 15 days at weekends war hapens. I dont know wich is the minimum lvl to participate but try this:
Go to a town, Dion for example and look for "terriotry manager" or "captain" (dont remember) and try to registe in any war as a mercenary.
When war start just go to a castle, Aden is cool, attack and have fun watching. In the end you will be reward with territory badges. Do this evey 15 days, you going to need that badges.
I only start to do last week