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Pathfinder online (sandbox game): First dev blog.
Loke666
Member EpicPosts: 21,441
Goblinworks released their first blog just. Seems like their lead designer is a vet fron Cryptic and CCP.
It was rather interesting, but I am not 100% sure how good it all sounds, they seems to think that it is faster and easier to make a sandbox than a themepark, and I am not so sure about that myself.
Anyways, worth reading, particularly if you are a fan of sandboxes of the Pathfinder P&P RPG.
Comments
From the sound of it, I think in cutting that budget they have pretty much thought that "oh lets make a sandbox, then we don't need any content!" From my point of view, not a wise decision and like you said if they honestly think a sandbox is easier to make they're in for a surprise. I can't remember if it was Bethesda or Rockstar, but one of the devs on there was commenting about the subject saying its a lot harder to build tools for players than it is to make content.
Yeah because all we need is ANOTHER cloned theme park mmo... sigh.
The more sandbox games they make the bigger the chance that one of them will succeed.
..Cake..
I hope they know something we don't know. Paizo is after all very competent and I don't think they would license their IP to just anyone.
And the lead designer was until recently working on WoDO, he should have learned a lot from CCP.
Still, the low budget thing does not sound great to me, and I think Guildwars proved that themeparks at least can be built on a very low budget by a minimum team and still be proffessional. I have not seen the same thing about sandbox games so far, at least not with anywhere close to modern graphics.
That is not what we said, we said that sandboxes take more job, not that they are worse.
The usual problem with sandboxes are that they are underfunded, and since this game have a low budget that is something to worry about, licensed engine or not.
I'm sorry, but nothing says "low-budget piece of crap" like limiting the number of people that can play the game. I really want this game to succeed, but it's not winning my confidence.
To me it say something more like: Paid beta instead... But yeah, it is not something that really inspire confidence.
Well you dont need to make all the quests and stories. And no voice acting - LOL
Anyway my comments
- 50 mil $ is to expensive for them. - Not good...
- They are using middleware to cut down on development time. - This didnt help Bioware. But maybe second gen middleware is better...lets just wait and see what engine will be licenced.
- Sandbox approach. - They joke about SWTOR , which allready sounds good
. And its actually true. Sandbox MMO takes less time to make. Simply no AAA company didnt try to make one. Sounds like they are implementing custom adventure editor aswell...cool
- Limiting number of players that can play - that stinks , but it may aswell create "social club" elitist mentality. May work for them.
- The game is comming real soon - Well that is the story we heared time and time again. "We are so efficient , we will make the mmo in year , when others need 4 years". When ever this was said , 99% of the time it ended with word : Canceled
Well,
Its on shaky ground now. But there is lot of interested parties...we will have to wait and see.
What part talks about the player limit you speak of. Didn't read it allPhilosophy of MMO Game Design
They will apparently let in only limited number of people at every month...
Yep. 4,500 people for the first 7 months (I think it was 7), factoring of losing 25% of that number per month in attrition (people going back to WoW), and then once they hit and maintain 16,000 players they will up it to 12,000 players a month until they hit and maintain 120,000.
As far as what WhySoShort says above, one thing WSS needs to realize is that the author of this blog is right. I personally see nothing wrong with them starting small since they have made it clear they will indeed grow. And avoiding the "first month rush" to be immediately followed by the "second or third month exodus" is something, reputation wise, worth it.
Besides, according to some of the prophets around here there aren't that many Sandbox players around anyway, right? rme
If you want in early, then all you have to do is go become an active member on the paizo fourms and stay active in the PO community. I just sure hope they make a showing at ReaperCon this year.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
This game needs a sub forum. As stated in the blog (link from OP) we can expect a relative quick release.
I had to laugh hard on this one.
Revenue of 4.5k subscribers in no way generates enough revenue to afford reasonable pace of development and the game dies off due to lack of content. Not to mention paying off for development costs.
You simply cannot offer competitive quality product for this money. Period.
The guy can't be THAT stupid...
This is the most interesting approach I've seen in a long, long time.
I would hope if they're fast-tracking development and already starting on hype, that an engine and base framework is already in place. Famous last words "this is turning into a much larger job than expected" when engine + middleware != finished game.
Honestly, sounds good to me.
Sandboxes by design do tend to have less content. And by content I mean quests and all the assets relating to them. It makes sense to cut down on those to craft a quality gameworld and intricate gameplay mechanics.
Think about it: You can build an MMO that looks and sounds very good, has intriguing ideas, a depth to its gameplay systems, but lacking a massive storyline and a load of assets to come with it. Really, this is what EVE did back then. Of course they were also fortunate in that they didn't have to put in much visual content either, their gameworld being, you know, space.
I won't think less of a game because it cuts down on content if their overall design absolutely fits this approach, as in EVE.
In the end, what I'd call a small-to-mid level budget sandbox MMO is as good as you'll get. It's looking less and less likely that anybody in the industry is going to spend 50+ million dollars on a sandbox MMO, and most sandbox examples we see are lacking badly in production quality on everything they do: Network code, aural and visual design, graphics, animation... Even well thought-out, consistent gameplay mechanics. Frankly, almost every sandbox game that came out in the recent years has been on the amateurish side when it comes to production quality. (Well, maybe excepting Perpetuum, but I'm afraid I did not play it long enough to really judge that.)
So in principle I'm totally OK with an MMO that has stable network code, rich and interesting gameplay mechanics, beautiful visual design and good graphics, even if it doesn't have much content.
Oh, and That "4500 hew players every month" is surely going to make things cozy. :P
Sad , but not...
He states, they are still searching for the engine.
Now..
You have hero engine (SWTOR) , that didnt really cut developing time of SWTOR. Its not shabby engine as it it, but i am not sure it fits sandbox games.
Although when I think about it , both sci-fi chanel mmo is using it, and repopulation, that claims to be sandbox aswell.
Than you have Fallen Earth engine. That is sandbox, and allows huge distances. But performs like wet noodle.
My specualtion is hero engine...
But lets see
I suspect Bioware is really regretting having licensed the Hero Engine. I'd read an interview with one of the designers, and on being asked something like whether he'd go back and license the engine again rather than developing a new one in-house, he practically said he wouldn't.
Anyway I never understood why such a well-known company prepared to pour this much money into a project went on to license a practically untested engine, solid-looking or not.
If I were to make an MMO now, I'd watch those MMOs using CryEngine and see if it fits my goals.
I think using the hero engine instead of making a new one actually did cut TORs development cost by a substansial sum. A good engine is one less thing that you don't have to worry about messing up.
And the hero engine should work in a sandbox as well as themepark, those are the mechanics that you set when you make the game, the engine seems flexible enough.
Still, I have a feeling that Goblin works will have problems making a good MMO for the price they think they can, they stated that $50M were their original plan and that it went a lot lower.
The only AAA MMO I can think of (not counting anything Cryptic made as AAA) under that budget the last 8 years is Guildwars, and GW had Jeff Strain as lead designer and he is one of the best programmers ever.
So I am not sure how they will pull this off even if I really hope they do, Pathfinder is the best pen and paper RPGs since Shadowrun.
They didn't say they would license an engine to speed their production but to reduce the cost. Not having to work on their own engine may aswell reduce their development time tho.
If you are 'die-hard' grinder, I guess you will be OK with that.
In reality, lack of content means nothing to do(apart from high repetitiveness), nothing to do means no fun thus no subscription money.
You mention Pereptuum as one of the games that is well crafted, yet the game is 'dying' just like any other low budget project.
This 'start low and evolve over time' is rubbish and it does not work. It worked in early MMO days because there was simply nothing else to play.
Like with any product, you need to focus on delivering competitive quality. If you are saying that for substantially less money you can offer same quality as products that costed way more to built and on top had time to evolve, you are trying to bully or you posses an army of highly qualified slaves.
it's not rubbish, considering they are building a niche service. they are not competing with WOW. there is no point. that market is already saturated, and effectively out of reach.
personally, i think planned growth is excellent aproach. delivering few systems that work, than expanding on.
Where did you guys read that Pathfinder won't have content?
If anything, they'll focus on the virtual world aspect which to my understanding includes but it's not limited to PVP, other forms of player interactions and crafting. Their idea seems to introduce the "themepark-ish" content later on and progressively.
It isn't niche service.
People play MMOs for fun, regardless of sandbox or themepark label. Developers of both approaches want as large player base(revenue) as possible.
Just because you have low player base does not make you a niche, it makes you failed business.
With 4.5k subscribers you can't afford much content, the revenue needed to pay for that content is simply not there.
"Making a game that starts with 4,500 players and grows to 16,500 players is much, much easier and vastly less expensive than making a game designed to accommodate a million players on day one."
Apparently, you're wrong.