Boggle. How the hell are people still parroting fake sales numbers about this game?
OK ToR sold 2 and a half copies... What you half said has nothing to do either with my argument or the subject of this thread so why even reply? why are you even on these forums...
Well wait for the NPD numbers, the preorder numbers were pretty good too, and EU retailers tell us that in the EU alone over 600K copies were shipped, but yeah what ever.
If you dont want to take ToR as an example take Rift, Trion made enough money on the box sales alone to cover the invesment of developing and publshing that game and made enough money to fund 2 additinal titles, yes they are having money problems now but its mostly because a sandlone studio went drunk on their own hype of success and went on to running 3 game development cycles while having not support from a major publisher or an investor.
Lifetime subscription in game designed to be p2p game is straight road to transition into freemium.
Why?
Game is designed to generate on-going stready income. When more and more people buy lifetime providing nice one time money flow it is well one time. After a while steady revenue get smaller and smaller and companies don't give a damn that they had increased revenue due to lifetime fees cause that was in PAST.
What matters is that they start to earn less and less money from game. So what from their point of view need to be done?
New source of income. That mean cash shop and freemium.
Why they cant be satisfied with past big influx of money that can keep game afloat for years and be ok with decreased on-goint revenue from players that havent bought lifetime?
Because they CAN get more moeny. Simple. Companies are not altruistic.
So lifetime subs -> freemium & cash shop in ~ 1 year.
Lotro example with lifetime and p2p for many years?
OK ToR sold 2 and a half copies... What you half said has nothing to do either with my argument or the subject of this thread so why even reply? why are you even on these forums...
Well wait for the NPD numbers, the preorder numbers were pretty good too, and EU retailers tell us that in the EU alone over 600K copies were shipped, but yeah what ever.
most people wouldnt want it, due to past mmo's going with lifetime subs have gone the f2p route or as some people say failed.
How are lifetime subscribers reacting when their game goes F2P?
I would imagine it causes some resentment.
That depends on the time between buying the lifetime sub and the game going F2P, at least for me.
I played LOTRO in beta, and bought a lifetime sub at launch. It paid for itself because I got over three years of gameplay before they went F2P. Someone who pays for a lifetime sub and watches that game go F2P within a year, though, would probably be pissed.
SWTOR sold 600k copies according to the NPD, now if we assume it sold near the same amount in Europe (which seems likely) then that means it sold around 1.2 mil in December, decent but not mind blowing, but considering the star wars and Bioware name it'll probably continue to sell well long after this.
SWTOR sold 600k copies according to the NPD, now if we assume it sold near the same amount in Europe (which seems likely) then that means it sold around 1.2 mil in December, decent but not mind blowing, but considering the star wars and Bioware name it'll probably continue to sell well long after this.
NPD is solid, but also limited. They don't count digital downloads, only physical boxes. They also only count the United States.
They didn't just sell 600k. They sold more, but we don't know exactly how many.
It will probably adopt some sort of free to play model within the next 2 years. Possibly sooner.
Thats about how long your lifetime sub money would last if compared to a regular sub fee. Life time subs are never a good deal. Ever. You're throwing your money away in almost every case.
A good game with longevity wont have one. A bad game with little to no longevity would love you to buy one.
If they sell between one and two million copies of the game in the first month, they're going to have a hard time turning the 3 to 4 M copies sold by March into reality . Sales aren't that amazing, considering the amount of money that went into the project. I'm sure they weren't planning on going F2P any time soon, but if they can't keep the subs coming in they're going to have to do something to at least try and break even. We're going to see how this game flies in a couple of months.
I have played LOTRO since Beta and one thing I would have done different is purchase the Lifetime Subscription at lauch. Will TOR have this option? I would do this option if it was available.
At $299.99 (lotro price at lauch) it would take 19 months before you playing for free (14.99/month).
Sorry OP, but I've half a mind to report your post on the basis it make me feel physically ill....
I have played LOTRO since Beta and one thing I would have done different is purchase the Lifetime Subscription at lauch. Will TOR have this option? I would do this option if it was available.
At $299.99 (lotro price at lauch) it would take 19 months before you playing for free (14.99/month).
Sorry OP, but I've half a mind to report your post on the basis it make me feel physically ill....
Why? I have never regretted my lifetime sub to Lotro. Not so sure I would like one for this game, but I would consider it. It's not a bad option if you play different MMO:s, you can always go back to your lifetime sub games and still have vip features regardless of payment model.
You might not like the old republic, and frankly, it is very very theme park and linear. But so what, have they ever told you different?
This thread was started before SWTOR was released.
I would have gone for a LT sub then, but I certianly will not go for one now. I have spent £30 on sub fees so far, and only used £15 worth from 2 60 day timecards bought with the game in Dec. I will not reach £100 in individually monthly subs now.
By them not offering LT subs before launch, has saved me money
If they bring back SWG and offer a LT sub to it, I would definately get one for that.
I have played LOTRO since Beta and one thing I would have done different is purchase the Lifetime Subscription at lauch. Will TOR have this option? I would do this option if it was available.
At $299.99 (lotro price at lauch) it would take 19 months before you playing for free (14.99/month).
Assuming someone subscribes for 10 years (and the game hasn't gone F2P or shut down by then), that would be what . . . about $1800?
I'm sure they wouldn't mind offering a lifetime sub for $1800. They'd LOSE money at a $300 lifetime sub past 19 months, to use your example.
Don't see why a company would want to lose money over the course of a game's life if they think it's gonna be popular.
Life time subs are a gamble for players and a cash injection for developers. The reason they dont cost $1800 (LOL btw) is because the player takes a gamble on the sub and the Developer gets a boost of up-front capital.
SWtoR wont offer a lifetime not because they are a *bad idea* but because the amount of pre-orders they have already made is netting them a massive cash injection. WIll it make back thier initial outlay? Nope, but they have the backing of EA to soak that and time to recoup over the next year or so.
Turbine offered lifetimes with LotRO to get back a chunk of thier outlay, and it worked out pretty well for them. Bioware just does not need to do that so no, they wont because they dont want you playing for free after 2 years or so. (Obviously Bioware feels thier game will last past this point, which is good news for us players! )
The only reason a developer would offer a lifetime sub is because they don't have enough faith in their game that they would expect people to play longer bring in more revenue.
lol. No. Not at all. It's because they know the average revenue stream of the average MMO player is less than the net present value of the cash streams implied in the lifetime sub. So, it's not not just the flat cost = X months when the developer looks at it. He looks at all the potential future cash flows, understanding that $15 three years from now is worth less than $15 today (the discount rate). Plus there's a 90% chance he won't even get that $15 in three years...
If you look at what they charge for life-time subs... Developers alway win, just like the house.
The only lifetime sub I ever did was for lotro and wow tak about getting burned. Well I never done one since, and swtor never offered one and I am glad it did not, it was bad enough i payed for 2 6 month subs and just now canceled both of those.
I remember the Lifetime subbers from Champions Online and Star Trek Online, lol at them because both went F2P in under a year. Lifetime subs in those games were roughly $300 (can't remember exactly how much), and SWTOR doesn't offer subs longer than 6 months.
And Bioware has 10 years planned for this game, not that I think it'll last that long.
I remember the Lifetime subbers from Champions Online and Star Trek Online, lol at them because both went F2P in under a year. Lifetime subs in those games were roughly $300 (can't remember exactly how much), and SWTOR doesn't offer subs longer than 6 months.
And Bioware has 10 years planned for this game, not that I think it'll last that long.
STO went F2P just shy of its second birthday, actually. Which was enough time for the LT to pay for itself.
I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil
The only lifetime sub I ever did was for lotro and wow tak about getting burned. Well I never done one since, and swtor never offered one and I am glad it did not, it was bad enough i payed for 2 6 month subs and just now canceled both of those.
I bought 2 LT subs to LOTRO and do not feel burned, as would have paid more in the long run, and still do not need to pay anything now to play the game.
F2P is not exactly free to play, and they are offering $99.99 to play VIP for 12 months here That is about half for one LT account if I recall what I paid in 2007. LT sub is still definately worth it
I also got a LT sub to CO and STO. CO was probably a mistake but it got perks for STO, and thought it be a replacnment to CoH. STO is still worth it, and I even have a 2nd account going now, and paying about £10-£11 depending on the USD-GBP rates.
Basically if you like the game and have long term goals in it, LT subs are well worth it.
SWTOR just has not got what STO and LOTRO has to offer. If SWTOR at least updated space to be like SWG, EVE or STO, then I think SWTOR would be worth it then.
Originally posted by WhiteLantern Originally posted by sookster54I remember the Lifetime subbers from Champions Online and Star Trek Online, lol at them because both went F2P in under a year. Lifetime subs in those games were roughly $300 (can't remember exactly how much), and SWTOR doesn't offer subs longer than 6 months.And Bioware has 10 years planned for this game, not that I think it'll last that long.
STO went F2P just shy of its second birthday, actually. Which was enough time for the LT to pay for itself. Oh right, I forgot it was THIS January.
The only lifetime sub I ever did was for lotro and wow tak about getting burned. Well I never done one since, and swtor never offered one and I am glad it did not, it was bad enough i payed for 2 6 month subs and just now canceled both of those.
And you are the typical case. And they knew that going in. OTOH, my LOTRO guild leader is also a lifetime sub and she still plays every day. She's the rare exception that 'won' on the deal.
Kind of like Vegas. Some people may walk away as winners, but the house always wins against the population...
The only lifetime sub I ever did was for lotro and wow tak about getting burned. Well I never done one since, and swtor never offered one and I am glad it did not, it was bad enough i payed for 2 6 month subs and just now canceled both of those.
And you are the typical case. And they knew that going in. OTOH, my LOTRO guild leader is also a lifetime sub and she still plays every day. She's the rare exception that 'won' on the deal.
Kind of like Vegas. Some people may walk away as winners, but the house always wins against the population...
Pretty much how I see it. The player is betting against the odds that he is going to enjoy playing the game nonstop for multiple years. For that they are giving up the only power they have as the consumer by giving away all that money up front on the hope that they will still find something enjoyable after two years. They're also taking a big risk in that there's no guarentee the game will be around that long and there's nothing they can do in the event that the worse case scenario happens.
Although the main reason what has kept me playing LOTRO and STO today, is that SWG kept me from, playing them.
I like Star Wars, Lord of the Rings and Star Trek, so chances are that I will play these MMOs more so, are more likely, and even with SWTOR before launch would have bought a LT sub for it.. But after playing SWTOR and realising that it is so restrictive than anything else out there MMO-wise, I am glad I did not buy one for it. The game does not deserve a monthly fee at all.
If SWG had a LT sub, I would have saved $1000s.
What with SWTOR and most games going F2P now, there is more reservation for LT subs, but if you play and like the game and sub to it even if F2P, for constant VIP, and to get the most out of it, then LT subs are still worth it.
LOTRO only offered LT subs at launch, then after a year or something brought it back. With CO and STO they offered LT subs from the start and then always, although was cheaper at launch. This gave people the chance to decide if a LT sub was worth it or not. Play a few months, and if like it to play forever, then buy LT sub. F2P would only burn people if F2P was enough to play the game, but if you still really like the game, and do not want to be restricted the LT sub is still worth it, as would end up subbing still, at $15 per month.
LOTRO still gets updates and expansions, so definately people who bought LT subs to it were lucky.
MMOs like Tera is just a gereric MMO, has no IP, and LT subs to that would be more a gamble.
Comments
OK ToR sold 2 and a half copies... What you half said has nothing to do either with my argument or the subject of this thread so why even reply? why are you even on these forums...
Well wait for the NPD numbers, the preorder numbers were pretty good too, and EU retailers tell us that in the EU alone over 600K copies were shipped, but yeah what ever.
If you dont want to take ToR as an example take Rift, Trion made enough money on the box sales alone to cover the invesment of developing and publshing that game and made enough money to fund 2 additinal titles, yes they are having money problems now but its mostly because a sandlone studio went drunk on their own hype of success and went on to running 3 game development cycles while having not support from a major publisher or an investor.
Lifetime subscription in game designed to be p2p game is straight road to transition into freemium.
Why?
Game is designed to generate on-going stready income. When more and more people buy lifetime providing nice one time money flow it is well one time. After a while steady revenue get smaller and smaller and companies don't give a damn that they had increased revenue due to lifetime fees cause that was in PAST.
What matters is that they start to earn less and less money from game. So what from their point of view need to be done?
New source of income. That mean cash shop and freemium.
Why they cant be satisfied with past big influx of money that can keep game afloat for years and be ok with decreased on-goint revenue from players that havent bought lifetime?
Because they CAN get more moeny. Simple. Companies are not altruistic.
So lifetime subs -> freemium & cash shop in ~ 1 year.
Lotro example with lifetime and p2p for many years?
Will NOT happen again believe me.
LOL.That depends on the time between buying the lifetime sub and the game going F2P, at least for me.
I played LOTRO in beta, and bought a lifetime sub at launch. It paid for itself because I got over three years of gameplay before they went F2P. Someone who pays for a lifetime sub and watches that game go F2P within a year, though, would probably be pissed.
SWTOR sold 600k copies according to the NPD, now if we assume it sold near the same amount in Europe (which seems likely) then that means it sold around 1.2 mil in December, decent but not mind blowing, but considering the star wars and Bioware name it'll probably continue to sell well long after this.
NPD is solid, but also limited. They don't count digital downloads, only physical boxes. They also only count the United States.
They didn't just sell 600k. They sold more, but we don't know exactly how many.
It will probably adopt some sort of free to play model within the next 2 years. Possibly sooner.
Thats about how long your lifetime sub money would last if compared to a regular sub fee. Life time subs are never a good deal. Ever. You're throwing your money away in almost every case.
A good game with longevity wont have one. A bad game with little to no longevity would love you to buy one.
If they sell between one and two million copies of the game in the first month, they're going to have a hard time turning the 3 to 4 M copies sold by March into reality . Sales aren't that amazing, considering the amount of money that went into the project. I'm sure they weren't planning on going F2P any time soon, but if they can't keep the subs coming in they're going to have to do something to at least try and break even. We're going to see how this game flies in a couple of months.
reply so question on lifetime subs, can you actually get banned? and if so haha that would suck for the lifer ;x
Sorry OP, but I've half a mind to report your post on the basis it make me feel physically ill....
Why? I have never regretted my lifetime sub to Lotro. Not so sure I would like one for this game, but I would consider it. It's not a bad option if you play different MMO:s, you can always go back to your lifetime sub games and still have vip features regardless of payment model.
You might not like the old republic, and frankly, it is very very theme park and linear. But so what, have they ever told you different?
This thread was started before SWTOR was released.
I would have gone for a LT sub then, but I certianly will not go for one now. I have spent £30 on sub fees so far, and only used £15 worth from 2 60 day timecards bought with the game in Dec. I will not reach £100 in individually monthly subs now.
By them not offering LT subs before launch, has saved me money
If they bring back SWG and offer a LT sub to it, I would definately get one for that.
Star Trek Online - Best Free MMORPG of 2012
lol. No. Not at all. It's because they know the average revenue stream of the average MMO player is less than the net present value of the cash streams implied in the lifetime sub. So, it's not not just the flat cost = X months when the developer looks at it. He looks at all the potential future cash flows, understanding that $15 three years from now is worth less than $15 today (the discount rate). Plus there's a 90% chance he won't even get that $15 in three years...
If you look at what they charge for life-time subs... Developers alway win, just like the house.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
The only lifetime sub I ever did was for lotro and wow tak about getting burned. Well I never done one since, and swtor never offered one and I am glad it did not, it was bad enough i payed for 2 6 month subs and just now canceled both of those.
I remember the Lifetime subbers from Champions Online and Star Trek Online, lol at them because both went F2P in under a year. Lifetime subs in those games were roughly $300 (can't remember exactly how much), and SWTOR doesn't offer subs longer than 6 months.
And Bioware has 10 years planned for this game, not that I think it'll last that long.
STO went F2P just shy of its second birthday, actually. Which was enough time for the LT to pay for itself.
I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil
I bought 2 LT subs to LOTRO and do not feel burned, as would have paid more in the long run, and still do not need to pay anything now to play the game.
F2P is not exactly free to play, and they are offering $99.99 to play VIP for 12 months here That is about half for one LT account if I recall what I paid in 2007. LT sub is still definately worth it
I also got a LT sub to CO and STO. CO was probably a mistake but it got perks for STO, and thought it be a replacnment to CoH. STO is still worth it, and I even have a 2nd account going now, and paying about £10-£11 depending on the USD-GBP rates.
Basically if you like the game and have long term goals in it, LT subs are well worth it.
SWTOR just has not got what STO and LOTRO has to offer. If SWTOR at least updated space to be like SWG, EVE or STO, then I think SWTOR would be worth it then.
Star Trek Online - Best Free MMORPG of 2012
Oh right, I forgot it was THIS January.
And you are the typical case. And they knew that going in. OTOH, my LOTRO guild leader is also a lifetime sub and she still plays every day. She's the rare exception that 'won' on the deal.
Kind of like Vegas. Some people may walk away as winners, but the house always wins against the population...
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
A good MMO is for life not just christmas!
Although the main reason what has kept me playing LOTRO and STO today, is that SWG kept me from, playing them.
I like Star Wars, Lord of the Rings and Star Trek, so chances are that I will play these MMOs more so, are more likely, and even with SWTOR before launch would have bought a LT sub for it.. But after playing SWTOR and realising that it is so restrictive than anything else out there MMO-wise, I am glad I did not buy one for it. The game does not deserve a monthly fee at all.
If SWG had a LT sub, I would have saved $1000s.
What with SWTOR and most games going F2P now, there is more reservation for LT subs, but if you play and like the game and sub to it even if F2P, for constant VIP, and to get the most out of it, then LT subs are still worth it.
LOTRO only offered LT subs at launch, then after a year or something brought it back. With CO and STO they offered LT subs from the start and then always, although was cheaper at launch. This gave people the chance to decide if a LT sub was worth it or not. Play a few months, and if like it to play forever, then buy LT sub. F2P would only burn people if F2P was enough to play the game, but if you still really like the game, and do not want to be restricted the LT sub is still worth it, as would end up subbing still, at $15 per month.
LOTRO still gets updates and expansions, so definately people who bought LT subs to it were lucky.
MMOs like Tera is just a gereric MMO, has no IP, and LT subs to that would be more a gamble.
Star Trek Online - Best Free MMORPG of 2012