I am not sure about your "individual" thread title and comments. The individual meant nothing in EQ, I am not sure what game you were playing? It was all about the group/raid, you could do some things solo, but you were only as great as the people you were with.
This is exactly my point. To the OP... not everyone remembers a game the same. You know why? Because it's a different experience based on how you played the game and who you played it with.
Things have not changed. An MMO really can't make YOU personally feel special or like an individual to the rest of the game. It's against the nature of the "massive" in the name. How can you make 10,000 people each feel special? You can't.. and they didn't. The only way to do this is through your actions with the immediate group(s)/Guilds you played with. People remember me in Warcraft. Not because I have a buff they can't get anywhere else, but because of my reputation of how I play the game. It's not the game and the mechanics, it's the people. You could take three palains in any game with the same gear and they will all be different based on their individual abilities to play.
These memories you have for the game are due to this and not the game itself. There was nothing special about Eq1 accept to the individual playing it. It, like every game out now, is what you make of it. If you keep trying to recreate those old feelings/memories, you will continue to be disapointed, no matter what comes out. trust me. You're not chasing a game like eq1.. You're chasing the memories of the good days. I know, I've been there.
I respectfully have to disagree. The death penalty was pretty high. People did not want to pug like they do today. They looked for people they knew just like they do today. The difference is ability to help the group avoid getting killed while speeding up the xp process. Today it's the fact you aren't an elitist jerk that only look at gearscores people look for.
The motive was much stronger to look for people who could play well much more than it is today. That has nothing to do with "your experience may varry". Xp penalty and corpse runs were very real to all who played. Not wanting to group with people who caused you to die excessivly was also very real. You just don't care about it today. That may be a good thing to a lot of people but it comes at a price of anonymity. The question then remains if you are willing to pay it and if it's a fair trade. To me it isn't
Hmmmm.. you kind of contradict yourself here. They don't want to pug, they like to look for sepcific folks that they know, just like they do today? So nothing has changed. The only difference being a Death Penalty. The death penalty really wasn't that important and doesn't really support the argument. I don't use PUG's. But I still like to group with friends in which I have confidence to get the job done. While there may be no death penalty, not finishing a dungeon and wasting time because someone sucks is worse to me. Time, at this point in my life is waaaaay more precious then XP. You still have the motivation to play with others who are skilled. You saying that people don't care about dying constantly just because there's no death penalty couldn't be farther from the truth for a casual gamer like me. Fact is... you waste what little precious time I have to play... that's about the worst thing you can do to me. So perhaps YOUR motivation has changed... mine has gotten stronger.
So no, I don't agree. Again, I don't think the games have radically changed. Perhaps just the way we preceive them as we age...
The point wasn't if things have changed in regards to if people want to pug or not. The point was you could stand out as a good player not and be sought after because of that. That part has changed. LFG tools and pugging is more popular than ever. Things have changed in that sense whether you agree or not
If I had made a point of saying people don't look for friends to play with it would be a self defeating point. It may not have been clear enough but people don't want to pug because of assholes today. People didn't want to pug then because of the possibility of a penalty. The difference is the penalty. Penalty is a bad bad word for many gamers today. It did however foster a closer knit community and shun those out that never got around to master the game or at the very least bothered to consentrate on what they were doing
Wheter you care today about dying in WoW is a moot point. If WoW tomorrow added an xp death penalty, assuming you continued playing. How would you percieve pugs then. You probably wouldn't even consider it. The cost would be too high for you if this lax way of handling death already bothers you. So you would do as many did back then. Look for people who knew how to play and never ever pug. You would use word of mouth and the people you leveled up with. Am i assuming too much? Maybe. I still believe that's how it was and would be today for most.
No Sir... I see no difference. You are making the assumption that everyone uses pugs. What I am telling you is that the group I play with in WoW does not use pugs. We don't use them not because of the "asshole" factor, but because of the "penalty" involved in grouping with unknowns. There is still a penalty. That penalty is time, like I said. For you, the death penalty seems to have been a big deal, for me, the time wasted is much worse. I only have about an hour or so to play when I log on, that time wasted with PUG's is just as harse as a DP with XP loss. Where you're saying that I wouldn't consider a PUG if there were a death penalty, I'm telling you, I don't consider them now. Due to the time penalty. I took my time and met some good folks, just like back then.
As far as standing out. Still possible based on your skill and reputation. As for the LFG tools, they are a natural evolution. That was going to happen. Doesn't mean you have to use them. If you don't want anything at all to change, you're dead in the water. Like I said though, EQ1 is still readily available. Problem is there are like 15 people playing it.
What you and your friends do doesn't really matter in the greater scheme of things. LFG tools are there because a lot of people want to pug. That there is a group of people that doesn't want to isn't much of a point when it comes to this discussion. an Xp and corpse recovery penalty would make a LFG tool a lot less desireable for obvious reasons. Regardless of your own personal playstyle
People don't stand out today. A bad pug may leave a sour taste in your mouth, doesn't inspire you to write down anyones names. Everything is forgotten shortly after except you are not less inclined to pug. Should you go through an instance successfully great.. It was expected so nobody really stands out. In EQ dungeons were more dynamic in the sense that random spawns plus other groups could cause your encounter to suddenly completely change. This meant that if you survived that encounter because of 1 individual. That person would be remembered. If dying only meant you would spawn outside and run straight down and be ready within 5 - 10 minutes people wouldn't care about any of that
I think you embellish a little too much on your own personal gaming history and playstyle to try and win an argument
I am not sure about your "individual" thread title and comments. The individual meant nothing in EQ, I am not sure what game you were playing? It was all about the group/raid, you could do some things solo, but you were only as great as the people you were with.
This is exactly my point. To the OP... not everyone remembers a game the same. You know why? Because it's a different experience based on how you played the game and who you played it with.
Things have not changed. An MMO really can't make YOU personally feel special or like an individual to the rest of the game. It's against the nature of the "massive" in the name. How can you make 10,000 people each feel special? You can't.. and they didn't. The only way to do this is through your actions with the immediate group(s)/Guilds you played with. People remember me in Warcraft. Not because I have a buff they can't get anywhere else, but because of my reputation of how I play the game. It's not the game and the mechanics, it's the people. You could take three palains in any game with the same gear and they will all be different based on their individual abilities to play.
These memories you have for the game are due to this and not the game itself. There was nothing special about Eq1 accept to the individual playing it. It, like every game out now, is what you make of it. If you keep trying to recreate those old feelings/memories, you will continue to be disapointed, no matter what comes out. trust me. You're not chasing a game like eq1.. You're chasing the memories of the good days. I know, I've been there.
I respectfully have to disagree. The death penalty was pretty high. People did not want to pug like they do today. They looked for people they knew just like they do today. The difference is ability to help the group avoid getting killed while speeding up the xp process. Today it's the fact you aren't an elitist jerk that only look at gearscores people look for.
The motive was much stronger to look for people who could play well much more than it is today. That has nothing to do with "your experience may varry". Xp penalty and corpse runs were very real to all who played. Not wanting to group with people who caused you to die excessivly was also very real. You just don't care about it today. That may be a good thing to a lot of people but it comes at a price of anonymity. The question then remains if you are willing to pay it and if it's a fair trade. To me it isn't
Hmmmm.. you kind of contradict yourself here. They don't want to pug, they like to look for sepcific folks that they know, just like they do today? So nothing has changed. The only difference being a Death Penalty. The death penalty really wasn't that important and doesn't really support the argument. I don't use PUG's. But I still like to group with friends in which I have confidence to get the job done. While there may be no death penalty, not finishing a dungeon and wasting time because someone sucks is worse to me. Time, at this point in my life is waaaaay more precious then XP. You still have the motivation to play with others who are skilled. You saying that people don't care about dying constantly just because there's no death penalty couldn't be farther from the truth for a casual gamer like me. Fact is... you waste what little precious time I have to play... that's about the worst thing you can do to me. So perhaps YOUR motivation has changed... mine has gotten stronger.
So no, I don't agree. Again, I don't think the games have radically changed. Perhaps just the way we preceive them as we age...
The point wasn't if things have changed in regards to if people want to pug or not. The point was you could stand out as a good player not and be sought after because of that. That part has changed. LFG tools and pugging is more popular than ever. Things have changed in that sense whether you agree or not
If I had made a point of saying people don't look for friends to play with it would be a self defeating point. It may not have been clear enough but people don't want to pug because of assholes today. People didn't want to pug then because of the possibility of a penalty. The difference is the penalty. Penalty is a bad bad word for many gamers today. It did however foster a closer knit community and shun those out that never got around to master the game or at the very least bothered to consentrate on what they were doing
Wheter you care today about dying in WoW is a moot point. If WoW tomorrow added an xp death penalty, assuming you continued playing. How would you percieve pugs then. You probably wouldn't even consider it. The cost would be too high for you if this lax way of handling death already bothers you. So you would do as many did back then. Look for people who knew how to play and never ever pug. You would use word of mouth and the people you leveled up with. Am i assuming too much? Maybe. I still believe that's how it was and would be today for most.
No Sir... I see no difference. You are making the assumption that everyone uses pugs. What I am telling you is that the group I play with in WoW does not use pugs. We don't use them not because of the "asshole" factor, but because of the "penalty" involved in grouping with unknowns. There is still a penalty. That penalty is time, like I said. For you, the death penalty seems to have been a big deal, for me, the time wasted is much worse. I only have about an hour or so to play when I log on, that time wasted with PUG's is just as harse as a DP with XP loss. Where you're saying that I wouldn't consider a PUG if there were a death penalty, I'm telling you, I don't consider them now. Due to the time penalty. I took my time and met some good folks, just like back then.
As far as standing out. Still possible based on your skill and reputation. As for the LFG tools, they are a natural evolution. That was going to happen. Doesn't mean you have to use them. If you don't want anything at all to change, you're dead in the water. Like I said though, EQ1 is still readily available. Problem is there are like 15 people playing it.
What you and your friends do doesn't really matter in the greater scheme of things.
It doesn't? Then why do we play? Why does anyone play? If what myself and my friends do is meaningless, then surely what others and their freinds do is meaningless. This greater scheme sounds depressing. I really think you put to much worship into this death penalty xp loss. I don't think it's the savior you think it is. I played shadbane where you dropped everything you were carring upon death. Didn't mean much once you got used to it. I've lost levels in FFXI due to XP loss and EQ2 had an original death penalty XP loss and it made little difference. You still took a group if you needed it and just ran back to your corpse. DP or not, some of us just like to play with other good players for the benefits of getting things done.
I am not sure about your "individual" thread title and comments. The individual meant nothing in EQ, I am not sure what game you were playing? It was all about the group/raid, you could do some things solo, but you were only as great as the people you were with.
This is exactly my point. To the OP... not everyone remembers a game the same. You know why? Because it's a different experience based on how you played the game and who you played it with.
Things have not changed. An MMO really can't make YOU personally feel special or like an individual to the rest of the game. It's against the nature of the "massive" in the name. How can you make 10,000 people each feel special? You can't.. and they didn't. The only way to do this is through your actions with the immediate group(s)/Guilds you played with. People remember me in Warcraft. Not because I have a buff they can't get anywhere else, but because of my reputation of how I play the game. It's not the game and the mechanics, it's the people. You could take three palains in any game with the same gear and they will all be different based on their individual abilities to play.
These memories you have for the game are due to this and not the game itself. There was nothing special about Eq1 accept to the individual playing it. It, like every game out now, is what you make of it. If you keep trying to recreate those old feelings/memories, you will continue to be disapointed, no matter what comes out. trust me. You're not chasing a game like eq1.. You're chasing the memories of the good days. I know, I've been there.
I respectfully have to disagree. The death penalty was pretty high. People did not want to pug like they do today. They looked for people they knew just like they do today. The difference is ability to help the group avoid getting killed while speeding up the xp process. Today it's the fact you aren't an elitist jerk that only look at gearscores people look for.
The motive was much stronger to look for people who could play well much more than it is today. That has nothing to do with "your experience may varry". Xp penalty and corpse runs were very real to all who played. Not wanting to group with people who caused you to die excessivly was also very real. You just don't care about it today. That may be a good thing to a lot of people but it comes at a price of anonymity. The question then remains if you are willing to pay it and if it's a fair trade. To me it isn't
Hmmmm.. you kind of contradict yourself here. They don't want to pug, they like to look for sepcific folks that they know, just like they do today? So nothing has changed. The only difference being a Death Penalty. The death penalty really wasn't that important and doesn't really support the argument. I don't use PUG's. But I still like to group with friends in which I have confidence to get the job done. While there may be no death penalty, not finishing a dungeon and wasting time because someone sucks is worse to me. Time, at this point in my life is waaaaay more precious then XP. You still have the motivation to play with others who are skilled. You saying that people don't care about dying constantly just because there's no death penalty couldn't be farther from the truth for a casual gamer like me. Fact is... you waste what little precious time I have to play... that's about the worst thing you can do to me. So perhaps YOUR motivation has changed... mine has gotten stronger.
So no, I don't agree. Again, I don't think the games have radically changed. Perhaps just the way we preceive them as we age...
The point wasn't if things have changed in regards to if people want to pug or not. The point was you could stand out as a good player not and be sought after because of that. That part has changed. LFG tools and pugging is more popular than ever. Things have changed in that sense whether you agree or not
If I had made a point of saying people don't look for friends to play with it would be a self defeating point. It may not have been clear enough but people don't want to pug because of assholes today. People didn't want to pug then because of the possibility of a penalty. The difference is the penalty. Penalty is a bad bad word for many gamers today. It did however foster a closer knit community and shun those out that never got around to master the game or at the very least bothered to consentrate on what they were doing
Wheter you care today about dying in WoW is a moot point. If WoW tomorrow added an xp death penalty, assuming you continued playing. How would you percieve pugs then. You probably wouldn't even consider it. The cost would be too high for you if this lax way of handling death already bothers you. So you would do as many did back then. Look for people who knew how to play and never ever pug. You would use word of mouth and the people you leveled up with. Am i assuming too much? Maybe. I still believe that's how it was and would be today for most.
No Sir... I see no difference. You are making the assumption that everyone uses pugs. What I am telling you is that the group I play with in WoW does not use pugs. We don't use them not because of the "asshole" factor, but because of the "penalty" involved in grouping with unknowns. There is still a penalty. That penalty is time, like I said. For you, the death penalty seems to have been a big deal, for me, the time wasted is much worse. I only have about an hour or so to play when I log on, that time wasted with PUG's is just as harse as a DP with XP loss. Where you're saying that I wouldn't consider a PUG if there were a death penalty, I'm telling you, I don't consider them now. Due to the time penalty. I took my time and met some good folks, just like back then.
As far as standing out. Still possible based on your skill and reputation. As for the LFG tools, they are a natural evolution. That was going to happen. Doesn't mean you have to use them. If you don't want anything at all to change, you're dead in the water. Like I said though, EQ1 is still readily available. Problem is there are like 15 people playing it.
What you and your friends do doesn't really matter in the greater scheme of things.
It doesn't? Then why do we play? Why does anyone play? If what myself and my friends do is meaningless, then surely what others and their freinds do is meaningless. This greater scheme sounds depressing. I really think you put to much worship into this death penalty xp loss. I don't think it's the savior you think it is. I played shadbane where you dropped everything you were carring upon death. Didn't mean much once you got used to it. I've lost levels in FFXI due to XP loss and EQ2 had an original death penalty XP loss and it made little difference. You still took a group if you needed it and just ran back to your corpse. DP or not, some of us just like to play with other good players for the benefits of getting things done.
I added more to the post
I guess the keypoints is you disagree with people not pugging back in the old EQ days because of a stiff penalty, or the fact the ones choosing not to pug in games like WoW today because of jerks and ninjalooters.
You disagree because you and your friends are different. First you have to prove you are part of the majority of those that say no to pugging. Using yourself as an example isn't much of a point. Me and some of my friends liked to hold races to see who could run from one end of Azeroth to the other the fastest without mounts. I could claim people played WoW because of racing because that's what me and my friends do.
The difference here with my point is, you don't have to go further than the forums to see if I'm correct. I don't use words such as "everybody" because there are small groups that does and thinks differently. You just don't matter much in the grand scheme of things. IE you are a small group
Just for kicks though we could run a poll there. have the options of "Reasons not to pug is A. Because you don't like dying and failing or B. because of jerks and ninjalooters.
I am not sure about your "individual" thread title and comments. The individual meant nothing in EQ, I am not sure what game you were playing? It was all about the group/raid, you could do some things solo, but you were only as great as the people you were with.
This is exactly my point. To the OP... not everyone remembers a game the same. You know why? Because it's a different experience based on how you played the game and who you played it with.
Things have not changed. An MMO really can't make YOU personally feel special or like an individual to the rest of the game. It's against the nature of the "massive" in the name. How can you make 10,000 people each feel special? You can't.. and they didn't. The only way to do this is through your actions with the immediate group(s)/Guilds you played with. People remember me in Warcraft. Not because I have a buff they can't get anywhere else, but because of my reputation of how I play the game. It's not the game and the mechanics, it's the people. You could take three palains in any game with the same gear and they will all be different based on their individual abilities to play.
These memories you have for the game are due to this and not the game itself. There was nothing special about Eq1 accept to the individual playing it. It, like every game out now, is what you make of it. If you keep trying to recreate those old feelings/memories, you will continue to be disapointed, no matter what comes out. trust me. You're not chasing a game like eq1.. You're chasing the memories of the good days. I know, I've been there.
I respectfully have to disagree. The death penalty was pretty high. People did not want to pug like they do today. They looked for people they knew just like they do today. The difference is ability to help the group avoid getting killed while speeding up the xp process. Today it's the fact you aren't an elitist jerk that only look at gearscores people look for.
The motive was much stronger to look for people who could play well much more than it is today. That has nothing to do with "your experience may varry". Xp penalty and corpse runs were very real to all who played. Not wanting to group with people who caused you to die excessivly was also very real. You just don't care about it today. That may be a good thing to a lot of people but it comes at a price of anonymity. The question then remains if you are willing to pay it and if it's a fair trade. To me it isn't
Hmmmm.. you kind of contradict yourself here. They don't want to pug, they like to look for sepcific folks that they know, just like they do today? So nothing has changed. The only difference being a Death Penalty. The death penalty really wasn't that important and doesn't really support the argument. I don't use PUG's. But I still like to group with friends in which I have confidence to get the job done. While there may be no death penalty, not finishing a dungeon and wasting time because someone sucks is worse to me. Time, at this point in my life is waaaaay more precious then XP. You still have the motivation to play with others who are skilled. You saying that people don't care about dying constantly just because there's no death penalty couldn't be farther from the truth for a casual gamer like me. Fact is... you waste what little precious time I have to play... that's about the worst thing you can do to me. So perhaps YOUR motivation has changed... mine has gotten stronger.
So no, I don't agree. Again, I don't think the games have radically changed. Perhaps just the way we preceive them as we age...
The point wasn't if things have changed in regards to if people want to pug or not. The point was you could stand out as a good player not and be sought after because of that. That part has changed. LFG tools and pugging is more popular than ever. Things have changed in that sense whether you agree or not
If I had made a point of saying people don't look for friends to play with it would be a self defeating point. It may not have been clear enough but people don't want to pug because of assholes today. People didn't want to pug then because of the possibility of a penalty. The difference is the penalty. Penalty is a bad bad word for many gamers today. It did however foster a closer knit community and shun those out that never got around to master the game or at the very least bothered to consentrate on what they were doing
Wheter you care today about dying in WoW is a moot point. If WoW tomorrow added an xp death penalty, assuming you continued playing. How would you percieve pugs then. You probably wouldn't even consider it. The cost would be too high for you if this lax way of handling death already bothers you. So you would do as many did back then. Look for people who knew how to play and never ever pug. You would use word of mouth and the people you leveled up with. Am i assuming too much? Maybe. I still believe that's how it was and would be today for most.
No Sir... I see no difference. You are making the assumption that everyone uses pugs. What I am telling you is that the group I play with in WoW does not use pugs. We don't use them not because of the "asshole" factor, but because of the "penalty" involved in grouping with unknowns. There is still a penalty. That penalty is time, like I said. For you, the death penalty seems to have been a big deal, for me, the time wasted is much worse. I only have about an hour or so to play when I log on, that time wasted with PUG's is just as harse as a DP with XP loss. Where you're saying that I wouldn't consider a PUG if there were a death penalty, I'm telling you, I don't consider them now. Due to the time penalty. I took my time and met some good folks, just like back then.
As far as standing out. Still possible based on your skill and reputation. As for the LFG tools, they are a natural evolution. That was going to happen. Doesn't mean you have to use them. If you don't want anything at all to change, you're dead in the water. Like I said though, EQ1 is still readily available. Problem is there are like 15 people playing it.
What you and your friends do doesn't really matter in the greater scheme of things.
It doesn't? Then why do we play? Why does anyone play? If what myself and my friends do is meaningless, then surely what others and their freinds do is meaningless. This greater scheme sounds depressing. I really think you put to much worship into this death penalty xp loss. I don't think it's the savior you think it is. I played shadbane where you dropped everything you were carring upon death. Didn't mean much once you got used to it. I've lost levels in FFXI due to XP loss and EQ2 had an original death penalty XP loss and it made little difference. You still took a group if you needed it and just ran back to your corpse. DP or not, some of us just like to play with other good players for the benefits of getting things done.
I added more to the post
I guess the keypoints is you disagree with people not pugging back in the old EQ days because of a stiff penalty, or the fact the ones choosing not to pug in games like WoW today because of jerks and ninjalooters.
You disagree because you and your friends are different. First you have to prove you are part of the majority of those that say no to pugging. Using yourself as an example isn't much of a point. Me and some of my friends liked to hold races to see who could run from one end of Azeroth to the other the fastest without mounts. I could claim people played WoW because of racing because that's what me and my friends do.
The difference here with my point is, you don't have to go further than the forums to see if I'm correct. I don't use words such as "everybody" because there are small groups that does and thinks differently. You just don't matter much in the grand scheme of things. IE you are a small group
Just for kicks though we could run a poll there. have the options of "Reasons not to pug is A. Because you don't like dying and failing or B. because of jerks and ninjalooters.
My lord. First, if you and your friends race around in WoW to see who's faster.. it's a completely valid argument to say that some people play WoW to race. These games are what you make them, if that's what you guys do, then it's valid.
Furthermore.. you're telling me people didn't PUG back in Eq1, or that it was less likely. Fine. Whatever you say, you'd have to prove that of course, just as I for some reason have to prove that I say no to pugging.
Now, back to the point of the thread and off of Pug's.
The fact is, the games have not changed enough to say that the individual has "no value". You certainly can stand out as an individual with worth, even in this day of gaming. It's not like you had individual value in Eq1 and not in any other game since. What I'm saying, is that the "individual value" of a player lies in the folks that player chooses to play with. You can absolutely be of value as an individual in WoW, LOTRO, FFXIV, any game. To say that now that games are going casual, it kills this is beyond pessimistic. There are loads of people still having fun in current games.
Let go of these old thoughts and ideas and perhaps you will too. Find a good group of folks and be someone of value to them.
It may not have bothered you.. but it bothered me. And judging by the way that the industry is moving, you are the minority. I'm having more fun then ever in the more casual gaming enviroment due to my age/job/children and playstyle. So while you look back and reminisce, I look forward to the future, and have fun in the present where I can actually feel like someone in a game.
You see, I see what you're saying as backwards for a guy like me. In the style you're referring back to, the individual player who could grind for 30+ hours a week was the only one who had value. Guys like me, who play only a few hours a week were completely and utterly meanless. With the games now, even as a casual gamer, I can be of great importance to a group as a healer (for example). I may not have a buff that no one else has, but I can heal them and get them through an instance or quest with no issues... that's valuable too. It's all in how you look at it. But I'll tell you one thing.. it's not gonna pay anytime soon to be a "hardcore" mmo'er. Life will be filled with disapointment and a lack of content as they burn through it in a week...lol.
So in order to make casual gamers (who were just fine playing single player or co-op RPGs, FPS, RTS) feel important, lowering the bar so that NO ONE is significant is the answer?
I don't know what casual MMOs you've been playing....but I've got about 5+ years invested in WOW and I can tell you that my place in the world of Azeroth was MUCH more insignificant than my place in Ultima Online, SWG Pre-CU, and Lineage 2.
When I played UO, SWG, L2, there were no instances for people to hide in. You knew the names of your friends, and you knew the names of your enemies. People refered to eachother by their name in game. Because groups were generally required to progress your character, your reputation mattered. How you conducted yourself with strangers could mean the difference between getting access to a powerful, or fun & friendly guild.....or getting black listed and shunned from group activities.
After 5+ years of playing WOW.....and countless groups joined for 5-man, 10-man, 15-man, and all the PvP BGs.....I CANT tell you the name of a single person outside the guild I was in. Either in my faction or the opposing faction.
Nearly every time someone called on me in group chat, it was allways MAGE - give me water / food....NOT Symbane - can I please have some water / food. People refenced eachother by their class and not their name. if that's not a "number" in the masses....I don't know what is.
Nice time saving features that help casuals feel like they made "progress" in their limited play time...like auto group matching & teleporting meant that MANY players never had to make their own groups, which involve atleast a basic understand of what each of the classes did and how they functioned. It also meant that many of the players had NO CLUE where exactly these dungeons were on the map. Because it was so easy to "jump" right back into another group....often times many players would drop group at the first sign of adversity and never worked things out.
Because things like death penalties, and consequences are viewed as time sinks...which is blasphemy among casual MMO gamers.....many gamers never had to critically think about what they did wrong in an encounter or fight.
There are ALL KINDS of unintended consequences of many of these "modern" MMO features and development philosophy that are aimed at helping casual MMO gamers like yourself feel important that bring down what a MMO game...and it's community used to stand for.
Point being.....the MMO genere was something once unique that gamers that were looking for something more challenging, deep, and immersive could go to.
Thanks to the mainstreaming of MMORPGs, the new MMO fare is not much more different than an RPG with a chat lobby. And because the AAA developers can't financially justify sinking money (in an already saturated market) into anything other than a game that is appealing to 10s of millions of casual players (the WOW Crowd), we now have a stagnant MMO market with most of the development giving us the same games with different skins (RIFT, AION, SW:TOR, Warhammer, etc.)
I wish we could go back to the extremely specialized SWG crafters or the unique dyes made by the alchemists of Asheron's Call.
I loved the fact that there were a couple people who could do such things and it made getting said item or service so much more rewarding.
Why does every game have to have everything so easily attained?
When things take neither high coordination (skill) or a large amount of dedication (time) and are devoid of other characterstics to make them unique (lucky, rare, creative), they become bland and meaningless. I want decision making to matter. I want to be different then the others around me. I miss the uniqueness.
I would like to add that being unique does not require a vertical power buff like the EQ enchanters op EXP buff was.
If only 2 people on the entire server can craft blood red dye for armor it achieves a very similar purpose of uniqueness without the need for the vertical power complaints.
When everyone can spend 10 minutes on an alt to get access to everything a person who dedicates themseleves to the profession can even hope to get....it kinda dilutes the achievement.
It may not have bothered you.. but it bothered me. And judging by the way that the industry is moving, you are the minority. I'm having more fun then ever in the more casual gaming enviroment due to my age/job/children and playstyle. So while you look back and reminisce, I look forward to the future, and have fun in the present where I can actually feel like someone in a game.
You see, I see what you're saying as backwards for a guy like me. In the style you're referring back to, the individual player who could grind for 30+ hours a week was the only one who had value. Guys like me, who play only a few hours a week were completely and utterly meanless. With the games now, even as a casual gamer, I can be of great importance to a group as a healer (for example). I may not have a buff that no one else has, but I can heal them and get them through an instance or quest with no issues... that's valuable too. It's all in how you look at it. But I'll tell you one thing.. it's not gonna pay anytime soon to be a "hardcore" mmo'er. Life will be filled with disapointment and a lack of content as they burn through it in a week...lol.
So in order to make casual gamers (who were just fine playing single player or co-op RPGs, FPS, RTS) feel important, lowering the bar so that NO ONE is significant is the answer?
I don't know what casual MMOs you've been playing....but I've got about 5+ years invested in WOW and I can tell you that my place in the world of Azeroth was MUCH more insignificant than my place in Ultima Online, SWG Pre-CU, and Lineage 2.
When I played UO, SWG, L2, there were no instances for people to hide in. You knew the names of your friends, and you knew the names of your enemies. People refered to eachother by their name in game. Because groups were generally required to progress your character, your reputation mattered. How you conducted yourself with strangers could mean the difference between getting access to a powerful, or fun & friendly guild.....or getting black listed and shunned from group activities.
After 5+ years of playing WOW.....and countless groups joined for 5-man, 10-man, 15-man, and all the PvP BGs.....I CANT tell you the name of a single person outside the guild I was in. Either in my faction or the opposing faction.
Nearly every time someone called on me in group chat, it was allways MAGE - give me water / food....NOT Symbane - can I please have some water / food. People refenced eachother by their class and not their name. if that's not a "number" in the masses....I don't know what is.
Nice time saving features that help casuals feel like they made "progress" in their limited play time...like auto group matching & teleporting meant that MANY players never had to make their own groups, which involve atleast a basic understand of what each of the classes did and how they functioned. It also meant that many of the players had NO CLUE where exactly these dungeons were on the map. Because it was so easy to "jump" right back into another group....often times many players would drop group at the first sign of adversity and never worked things out.
Because things like death penalties, and consequences are viewed as time sinks...which is blasphemy among casual MMO gamers.....many gamers never had to critically think about what they did wrong in an encounter or fight.
There are ALL KINDS of unintended consequences of many of these "modern" MMO features and development philosophy that are aimed at helping casual MMO gamers like yourself feel important that bring down what a MMO game...and it's community used to stand for.
Nah It's all in our heads because Praetalus and his friends doesn't roll that way
There I was… standing in line.. waiting my turn to type /hail while targeting a divine beauty, her name was Elane – I been through this routine before.. when it was my turn, and I hailed her, she promptly invited me into her group.. payment upfront – That’s how it worked, it was a donation, so anything would suffice, but I valued her services, so I always gave a full platinum piece, after all I needed to entice her to offer her services at further length if possible – and she did, I could find Elane here.. In a small corner of the Nexus on the Moon of Luclin – What was it she offered? A very rare, and valuable buff.. Kia’s Endless Intellect – As a druid this buff could increase my experience rate during grind sessions tenfold, cut down on my downtime, and shed hours off my AOE Kiting sessions.. So why her? Why would hundreds wait in line to be buffed by her, and pay… surely there are more who could offer this buff?… and that my friends.. is the morale to this story..
Elane was a level 60 Enchanter, a very rare thing to find, and yet even so – You could try to track down another Enchanter to give this buff – However you might find yourself spending more time then you wish to try, and get it – and most had unreasonable prices for a Druid in his mid 30s to afford. I could grind with out it.. but that was like choosing to wear shoes with out socks.. best to avoid it if possible.
Back in those days.. Buffs were valuable.. They were not free. They could not be spammed for the fun of it, and most of all.. They made the difference!
In the modern MMORPG of free levels, and free buffs, individuals have no value.. we are just another number.. another max level xx class among an ocean of them…
A situation created by the give everyone a max level philosophies of casual MMORPGS – Back then only a high level enchanter could cast this buff, and high levels were hard to come by, it could take you a year to reach max, if you played hardcore +20 hours a week.
Sure that wasn’t any fun.. Thinking I would almost never see the level cap… but did it bother me? NO – It was an adventure, I felt like their was this perpetual goal, something to keep me going, I didn’t need cookie-cutter raids, and instanced PvP, I was a cog-wheel in a machine too large to comprehend, often in awe over the largest cog-wheels, and the amazing feats they could perform.
Hell.. it was an experience, it was entertainment to see a high level character, with their –Epic- weapon, who could cast spells I had never seen in over a year of playing… it was like watching a magician at a birthday party..
This is what brought me to this genre.. the overwhelming scale of the worlds, and universe, why can’t we have this anymore?
I understand the overwhelming demand by casual players for a casual MMORPG, and companies go with the demand, and the market demands casual…
But with most casual MMORPGS failing to sustain, and retain subscriptions, one would think that going back to a more modernized Everquest style model could prove to be profitable.
I’m sure there is a healthy market of gamers like myself that want the Hardcore feel back..
Hell.. I’d even pay double the going subscription to see it happen.. that’s right I’d pay 30 bucks a month for a modernized Everquest…
YOU HEAR ME GAME DEVELOPERS! – I’m sure I’m not alone.
Those same companys screw you over these days with mediocre games for mass market and your willing to pay them 30bucks to play games they ruined in the last decade, omg do you see the IRONY:p
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77 CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now)) MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB PSU:Corsair AX1200i OS:Windows 10 64bit
It may not have bothered you.. but it bothered me. And judging by the way that the industry is moving, you are the minority. I'm having more fun then ever in the more casual gaming enviroment due to my age/job/children and playstyle. So while you look back and reminisce, I look forward to the future, and have fun in the present where I can actually feel like someone in a game.
You see, I see what you're saying as backwards for a guy like me. In the style you're referring back to, the individual player who could grind for 30+ hours a week was the only one who had value. Guys like me, who play only a few hours a week were completely and utterly meanless. With the games now, even as a casual gamer, I can be of great importance to a group as a healer (for example). I may not have a buff that no one else has, but I can heal them and get them through an instance or quest with no issues... that's valuable too. It's all in how you look at it. But I'll tell you one thing.. it's not gonna pay anytime soon to be a "hardcore" mmo'er. Life will be filled with disapointment and a lack of content as they burn through it in a week...lol.
So in order to make casual gamers (who were just fine playing single player or co-op RPGs, FPS, RTS) feel important, lowering the bar so that NO ONE is significant is the answer?
I don't know what casual MMOs you've been playing....but I've got about 5+ years invested in WOW and I can tell you that my place in the world of Azeroth was MUCH more insignificant than my place in Ultima Online, SWG Pre-CU, and Lineage 2.
When I played UO, SWG, L2, there were no instances for people to hide in. You knew the names of your friends, and you knew the names of your enemies. People refered to eachother by their name in game. Because groups were generally required to progress your character, your reputation mattered. How you conducted yourself with strangers could mean the difference between getting access to a powerful, or fun & friendly guild.....or getting black listed and shunned from group activities.
After 5+ years of playing WOW.....and countless groups joined for 5-man, 10-man, 15-man, and all the PvP BGs.....I CANT tell you the name of a single person outside the guild I was in. Either in my faction or the opposing faction.
Nearly every time someone called on me in group chat, it was allways MAGE - give me water / food....NOT Symbane - can I please have some water / food. People refenced eachother by their class and not their name. if that's not a "number" in the masses....I don't know what is.
Nice time saving features that help casuals feel like they made "progress" in their limited play time...like auto group matching & teleporting meant that MANY players never had to make their own groups, which involve atleast a basic understand of what each of the classes did and how they functioned. It also meant that many of the players had NO CLUE where exactly these dungeons were on the map. Because it was so easy to "jump" right back into another group....often times many players would drop group at the first sign of adversity and never worked things out.
Because things like death penalties, and consequences are viewed as time sinks...which is blasphemy among casual MMO gamers.....many gamers never had to critically think about what they did wrong in an encounter or fight.
There are ALL KINDS of unintended consequences of many of these "modern" MMO features and development philosophy that are aimed at helping casual MMO gamers like yourself feel important that bring down what a MMO game...and it's community used to stand for.
Point being.....the MMO genere was something once unique that gamers that were looking for something more challenging, deep, and immersive could go to.
Thanks to the mainstreaming of MMORPGs, the new MMO fare is not much more different than an RPG with a chat lobby. And because the AAA developers can't financially justify sinking money (in an already saturated market) into anything other than a game that is appealing to 10s of millions of casual players (the WOW Crowd), we now have a stagnant MMO market with most of the development giving us the same games with different skins (RIFT, AION, SW:TOR, Warhammer, etc.)
+1
THIS.
I stopped playing mmorpg's (6 months and counting) cause all modern mmorpg's seem like that (or are broken, indie gank-fests) they are carbon copies of each other. I ADMIT I had fun with themeparks for quite a while like i.e. Lotro, but lately when I just tried Rift and Swtor, I just could not handle it anymore. Seriously limited, directed "on rails" experience with clones running around everywhere.
Crafting does not mean anything, housing is not existing, exploring does not matter or there is nothing to see, you cannot be individuality - everything is just too accesible and it is just about mashing instances to get same gear everyone else have.
No feel of acomplishment, no cooperation between people other than short session in instance, no inter-dependancy between people, no player-made rich economies.
No INDIVIDUALITY.
No virtual world.
Just graphical lobby to run short gaming sessions in instances.
Old and current mmorpg's are very diffrent game types.
Old ones were economy, manufacture and combat games mixed together with decorating, sim, and social experiences.
New ones are "skeletons" - just co-op mini-games with some poor, side-features slapped on top of co-op combat in instances.
There I was… standing in line.. waiting my turn to type /hail while targeting a divine beauty, her name was Elane – I been through this routine before.. when it was my turn, and I hailed her, she promptly invited me into her group.. payment upfront – That’s how it worked, it was a donation, so anything would suffice, but I valued her services, so I always gave a full platinum piece, after all I needed to entice her to offer her services at further length if possible – and she did, I could find Elane here.. In a small corner of the Nexus on the Moon of Luclin – What was it she offered? A very rare, and valuable buff.. Kia’s Endless Intellect – As a druid this buff could increase my experience rate during grind sessions tenfold, cut down on my downtime, and shed hours off my AOE Kiting sessions.. So why her? Why would hundreds wait in line to be buffed by her, and pay… surely there are more who could offer this buff?… and that my friends.. is the morale to this story..
Elane was a level 60 Enchanter, a very rare thing to find, and yet even so – You could try to track down another Enchanter to give this buff – However you might find yourself spending more time then you wish to try, and get it – and most had unreasonable prices for a Druid in his mid 30s to afford. I could grind with out it.. but that was like choosing to wear shoes with out socks.. best to avoid it if possible.
Back in those days.. Buffs were valuable.. They were not free. They could not be spammed for the fun of it, and most of all.. They made the difference!
In the modern MMORPG of free levels, and free buffs, individuals have no value.. we are just another number.. another max level xx class among an ocean of them…
A situation created by the give everyone a max level philosophies of casual MMORPGS – Back then only a high level enchanter could cast this buff, and high levels were hard to come by, it could take you a year to reach max, if you played hardcore +20 hours a week.
Sure that wasn’t any fun.. Thinking I would almost never see the level cap… but did it bother me? NO – It was an adventure, I felt like their was this perpetual goal, something to keep me going, I didn’t need cookie-cutter raids, and instanced PvP, I was a cog-wheel in a machine too large to comprehend, often in awe over the largest cog-wheels, and the amazing feats they could perform.
Hell.. it was an experience, it was entertainment to see a high level character, with their –Epic- weapon, who could cast spells I had never seen in over a year of playing… it was like watching a magician at a birthday party..
This is what brought me to this genre.. the overwhelming scale of the worlds, and universe, why can’t we have this anymore?
I understand the overwhelming demand by casual players for a casual MMORPG, and companies go with the demand, and the market demands casual…
But with most casual MMORPGS failing to sustain, and retain subscriptions, one would think that going back to a more modernized Everquest style model could prove to be profitable.
I’m sure there is a healthy market of gamers like myself that want the Hardcore feel back..
Hell.. I’d even pay double the going subscription to see it happen.. that’s right I’d pay 30 bucks a month for a modernized Everquest…
YOU HEAR ME GAME DEVELOPERS! – I’m sure I’m not alone.
It may not have bothered you.. but it bothered me. And judging by the way that the industry is moving, you are the minority. I'm having more fun then ever in the more casual gaming enviroment due to my age/job/children and playstyle. So while you look back and reminisce, I look forward to the future, and have fun in the present where I can actually feel like someone in a game.
You see, I see what you're saying as backwards for a guy like me. In the style you're referring back to, the individual player who could grind for 30+ hours a week was the only one who had value. Guys like me, who play only a few hours a week were completely and utterly meanless. With the games now, even as a casual gamer, I can be of great importance to a group as a healer (for example). I may not have a buff that no one else has, but I can heal them and get them through an instance or quest with no issues... that's valuable too. It's all in how you look at it. But I'll tell you one thing.. it's not gonna pay anytime soon to be a "hardcore" mmo'er. Life will be filled with disapointment and a lack of content as they burn through it in a week...lol.
Im in same boat as you age/job/family and less time i can't spent these days playing games is alot less then it use to be, but i still love old hardcore mmo's way that you had in Asheron's call or later Lineage2 and Asherons call 2. Becouse im older and have less time don't mean i wanne play more casual and simpler games.
And you know why becouse i still dont give shit if others are way ahead of me becouse they play more ill keep fighting untill i get my revenge if it takes longer no problem at all. But i surly still can't play games like WoW becouse i have less time and im older, these games disgust me with there simplisity and carebearism.
But thats the problem with many gamers, when some have time and play alot they are fan of hardcore pvp games, but when they suddenly dont have that time they whine, whine and keep whining and cry about hardcore players and game untill they eather change game or rollover to themeparks lol.
So maybe im a minority but im still loyal to games they made a decade or more ago becouse i just like playing difficult games and i realy dont give shit if im behind in hardcore pvp mmo's, im a fighter not a quiter.
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77 CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now)) MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB PSU:Corsair AX1200i OS:Windows 10 64bit
The community grew together.. trolls didn't exist! Some rotten apples here, and there but the community could police their own....
I think your basic problem, Div, is that you're worshiping a world that never existed. Not in EQ, not in MUDs even.
This is correct in my opinion.. you have this god like worship for a game that was probably your first heavy mmo. Just like I said... if you were to go back to that game today, just as it was... I think you'd see things a bit differently. If the game was as good as you remember... why would anyone have ever left? Just to be unhappy playing something "new"? How long has it been since you played Eq? And... you do know it's still running correct? Why aren't you playing it now?
Because, even if you're not willing to see it, it wasn't the game, it was the memories...like I said before.
And all the other talk about being important to the "community", reputation and such... If you find a really good guild.. in any game, it's your own little community of players. it's kind of the point. Ya know when I play Warcraft, I have zero issues with ninja looting or assholes in groups. of course, I can count the amount of times I use the dungeon finder on one hand. My reputation means everything within my guild. My healing capabilities, my skill. It's everything. Just as your rep was to you in Eq1. Can't you see that? It's the same.
You say that hardcore gamers rule warcraft which is also not true. I'm an 85 who doesn't raid. I am very casual. I probably have the "welfare" epics you're speaking about, but in my Guild... they love me to heal them through dungeons due to my skill and reputation of knowing how to play. Even as a casual gamer, I'm of great importence in my guild. Our little community grows together and polices ourselves. We are the same commnuity you speak of. Perhaps you haven't found any decent players to play a new game with... but my experiences couldn't be more different then yours. I'm not sure what exactly you're chasing, but if you don't let those memories go, you'lll never be happy...lol.
I stopped after your first paragraph.
Allow me to discredit you naysayers, and pontificators.
Everquest is -NOT- my favorite MMORPG, nor does it hold the highest level of favorable memories to me, it was my first MMORPG, and one i used for this example.
I will now, however give a few more examples, and tell you what game was my favorite, FOR THE SAME REASONS I ENJOYED EQ! How about that?
First off -- My 2 favorite MMORPGs were, about equally favored to be SWG (Pre-CU/NGE), and Lineage 2; C1-C3.
Now for an example as to player value.
Back when SWG first launched.. there were what ? 50 or so professions, with the daunted hidden Force Senstive bonus profession --
So many different possbilities, and ways to build your character..
One of my most memorable moments in an MMORPG was this :
I had been playing for a few months, finally got my house up and running in my new guild's city, they were Imperials - I was covert, but when i did own me a nice TIE pilot outfit -- Anyways, i remember doing some missions, and getting a tell to report to the city, it was under-attack by an overt rebel alliance --
When i arrived, nothing was happening, every once and while one of our auto turrets would take a shot at a Expert Scout who was... well.. scouting us out, and got to close to the city walls.. and then all of a sudden our Governer ordered for all of us to saddle up, and follow him, something was going down in the southern part of the city...
Then about 50 so of us all got on our speeders, and cruisers, (Lag fest at first), and motorcaded down to the point mentioned...
When i arrived.. the scene was chaos.. and FREAKING AWESOME, about 100 or so rebels were razing our city, and fighting in a very tactical fashion inching closer, and closer... towards our Guild Hall.. when we arrived it was a much needed rienforcements to our allies who were being overwhelming, we started to route the rebels, thinking victory was in hand we chased after them to land killing blows --
As we turned the corner, we were faced with about 15-20 rebels all in a circle.. protecting something...
and that something was...a Jedi Master... not a FS Toon, or an intiate.. but a full blown master with a custom and very expensive LightSaber...
We knew then that it was over.. we would all die in moments...
After i returned to the battle from the cloning stations after i died.. i returned to a even bigger mess of chaos... turns out several of the larger imperial guilds found out about the Jedi master....
They didn't much care about our plight to save our city from burning... but the chance to kill a Jedi Master was something that could not turn down... nor could the Sith...
I'm not really sure what happened from there, as the lag pretty much stille framed my old rig at the time, but from my understanding the Jedi Master was overwhelmed, and at some point some low level imperial overt Force Intiates killed him.
Even in that game you could achieve such a value that hundreds would die to keep your character alive...
Aside from maybe being the Archlord in Archlord... what other game could boast such a thing? In lineage 2 there were 2 special swords... which made your name red if you wielded them, but they granted amazing power.. but people would hunt you to take those swords....
I understand the OP. But my angle was FFXI. I was the mage with teleportation spell. I was well loved (or well used by the occasional snot nose). That game would have rocked all if the economy wasn't such a fail.
Comments
What you and your friends do doesn't really matter in the greater scheme of things. LFG tools are there because a lot of people want to pug. That there is a group of people that doesn't want to isn't much of a point when it comes to this discussion. an Xp and corpse recovery penalty would make a LFG tool a lot less desireable for obvious reasons. Regardless of your own personal playstyle
People don't stand out today. A bad pug may leave a sour taste in your mouth, doesn't inspire you to write down anyones names. Everything is forgotten shortly after except you are not less inclined to pug. Should you go through an instance successfully great.. It was expected so nobody really stands out. In EQ dungeons were more dynamic in the sense that random spawns plus other groups could cause your encounter to suddenly completely change. This meant that if you survived that encounter because of 1 individual. That person would be remembered. If dying only meant you would spawn outside and run straight down and be ready within 5 - 10 minutes people wouldn't care about any of that
I think you embellish a little too much on your own personal gaming history and playstyle to try and win an argument
It doesn't? Then why do we play? Why does anyone play? If what myself and my friends do is meaningless, then surely what others and their freinds do is meaningless. This greater scheme sounds depressing. I really think you put to much worship into this death penalty xp loss. I don't think it's the savior you think it is. I played shadbane where you dropped everything you were carring upon death. Didn't mean much once you got used to it. I've lost levels in FFXI due to XP loss and EQ2 had an original death penalty XP loss and it made little difference. You still took a group if you needed it and just ran back to your corpse. DP or not, some of us just like to play with other good players for the benefits of getting things done.
I added more to the post
I guess the keypoints is you disagree with people not pugging back in the old EQ days because of a stiff penalty, or the fact the ones choosing not to pug in games like WoW today because of jerks and ninjalooters.
You disagree because you and your friends are different. First you have to prove you are part of the majority of those that say no to pugging. Using yourself as an example isn't much of a point. Me and some of my friends liked to hold races to see who could run from one end of Azeroth to the other the fastest without mounts. I could claim people played WoW because of racing because that's what me and my friends do.
The difference here with my point is, you don't have to go further than the forums to see if I'm correct. I don't use words such as "everybody" because there are small groups that does and thinks differently. You just don't matter much in the grand scheme of things. IE you are a small group
Just for kicks though we could run a poll there. have the options of "Reasons not to pug is A. Because you don't like dying and failing or B. because of jerks and ninjalooters.
My lord. First, if you and your friends race around in WoW to see who's faster.. it's a completely valid argument to say that some people play WoW to race. These games are what you make them, if that's what you guys do, then it's valid.
Furthermore.. you're telling me people didn't PUG back in Eq1, or that it was less likely. Fine. Whatever you say, you'd have to prove that of course, just as I for some reason have to prove that I say no to pugging.
Now, back to the point of the thread and off of Pug's.
The fact is, the games have not changed enough to say that the individual has "no value". You certainly can stand out as an individual with worth, even in this day of gaming. It's not like you had individual value in Eq1 and not in any other game since. What I'm saying, is that the "individual value" of a player lies in the folks that player chooses to play with. You can absolutely be of value as an individual in WoW, LOTRO, FFXIV, any game. To say that now that games are going casual, it kills this is beyond pessimistic. There are loads of people still having fun in current games.
Let go of these old thoughts and ideas and perhaps you will too. Find a good group of folks and be someone of value to them.
So in order to make casual gamers (who were just fine playing single player or co-op RPGs, FPS, RTS) feel important, lowering the bar so that NO ONE is significant is the answer?
I don't know what casual MMOs you've been playing....but I've got about 5+ years invested in WOW and I can tell you that my place in the world of Azeroth was MUCH more insignificant than my place in Ultima Online, SWG Pre-CU, and Lineage 2.
When I played UO, SWG, L2, there were no instances for people to hide in. You knew the names of your friends, and you knew the names of your enemies. People refered to eachother by their name in game. Because groups were generally required to progress your character, your reputation mattered. How you conducted yourself with strangers could mean the difference between getting access to a powerful, or fun & friendly guild.....or getting black listed and shunned from group activities.
After 5+ years of playing WOW.....and countless groups joined for 5-man, 10-man, 15-man, and all the PvP BGs.....I CANT tell you the name of a single person outside the guild I was in. Either in my faction or the opposing faction.
Nearly every time someone called on me in group chat, it was allways MAGE - give me water / food....NOT Symbane - can I please have some water / food. People refenced eachother by their class and not their name. if that's not a "number" in the masses....I don't know what is.
Nice time saving features that help casuals feel like they made "progress" in their limited play time...like auto group matching & teleporting meant that MANY players never had to make their own groups, which involve atleast a basic understand of what each of the classes did and how they functioned. It also meant that many of the players had NO CLUE where exactly these dungeons were on the map. Because it was so easy to "jump" right back into another group....often times many players would drop group at the first sign of adversity and never worked things out.
Because things like death penalties, and consequences are viewed as time sinks...which is blasphemy among casual MMO gamers.....many gamers never had to critically think about what they did wrong in an encounter or fight.
There are ALL KINDS of unintended consequences of many of these "modern" MMO features and development philosophy that are aimed at helping casual MMO gamers like yourself feel important that bring down what a MMO game...and it's community used to stand for.
Point being.....the MMO genere was something once unique that gamers that were looking for something more challenging, deep, and immersive could go to.
Thanks to the mainstreaming of MMORPGs, the new MMO fare is not much more different than an RPG with a chat lobby. And because the AAA developers can't financially justify sinking money (in an already saturated market) into anything other than a game that is appealing to 10s of millions of casual players (the WOW Crowd), we now have a stagnant MMO market with most of the development giving us the same games with different skins (RIFT, AION, SW:TOR, Warhammer, etc.)
I wish we could go back to the extremely specialized SWG crafters or the unique dyes made by the alchemists of Asheron's Call.
I loved the fact that there were a couple people who could do such things and it made getting said item or service so much more rewarding.
Why does every game have to have everything so easily attained?
When things take neither high coordination (skill) or a large amount of dedication (time) and are devoid of other characterstics to make them unique (lucky, rare, creative), they become bland and meaningless. I want decision making to matter. I want to be different then the others around me. I miss the uniqueness.
I want meaning back in my MMO.
I would like to add that being unique does not require a vertical power buff like the EQ enchanters op EXP buff was.
If only 2 people on the entire server can craft blood red dye for armor it achieves a very similar purpose of uniqueness without the need for the vertical power complaints.
When everyone can spend 10 minutes on an alt to get access to everything a person who dedicates themseleves to the profession can even hope to get....it kinda dilutes the achievement.
Thank you, OP.
Nah It's all in our heads because Praetalus and his friends doesn't roll that way
Those same companys screw you over these days with mediocre games for mass market and your willing to pay them 30bucks to play games they ruined in the last decade, omg do you see the IRONY:p
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
+1
THIS.
I stopped playing mmorpg's (6 months and counting) cause all modern mmorpg's seem like that (or are broken, indie gank-fests) they are carbon copies of each other. I ADMIT I had fun with themeparks for quite a while like i.e. Lotro, but lately when I just tried Rift and Swtor, I just could not handle it anymore. Seriously limited, directed "on rails" experience with clones running around everywhere.
Crafting does not mean anything, housing is not existing, exploring does not matter or there is nothing to see, you cannot be individuality - everything is just too accesible and it is just about mashing instances to get same gear everyone else have.
No feel of acomplishment, no cooperation between people other than short session in instance, no inter-dependancy between people, no player-made rich economies.
No INDIVIDUALITY.
No virtual world.
Just graphical lobby to run short gaming sessions in instances.
Old and current mmorpg's are very diffrent game types.
Old ones were economy, manufacture and combat games mixed together with decorating, sim, and social experiences.
New ones are "skeletons" - just co-op mini-games with some poor, side-features slapped on top of co-op combat in instances.
Just boring and limited.
Im in same boat as you age/job/family and less time i can't spent these days playing games is alot less then it use to be, but i still love old hardcore mmo's way that you had in Asheron's call or later Lineage2 and Asherons call 2. Becouse im older and have less time don't mean i wanne play more casual and simpler games.
And you know why becouse i still dont give shit if others are way ahead of me becouse they play more ill keep fighting untill i get my revenge if it takes longer no problem at all. But i surly still can't play games like WoW becouse i have less time and im older, these games disgust me with there simplisity and carebearism.
But thats the problem with many gamers, when some have time and play alot they are fan of hardcore pvp games, but when they suddenly dont have that time they whine, whine and keep whining and cry about hardcore players and game untill they eather change game or rollover to themeparks lol.
So maybe im a minority but im still loyal to games they made a decade or more ago becouse i just like playing difficult games and i realy dont give shit if im behind in hardcore pvp mmo's, im a fighter not a quiter.
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
I stopped after your first paragraph.
Allow me to discredit you naysayers, and pontificators.
Everquest is -NOT- my favorite MMORPG, nor does it hold the highest level of favorable memories to me, it was my first MMORPG, and one i used for this example.
I will now, however give a few more examples, and tell you what game was my favorite, FOR THE SAME REASONS I ENJOYED EQ! How about that?
First off -- My 2 favorite MMORPGs were, about equally favored to be SWG (Pre-CU/NGE), and Lineage 2; C1-C3.
Now for an example as to player value.
Back when SWG first launched.. there were what ? 50 or so professions, with the daunted hidden Force Senstive bonus profession --
So many different possbilities, and ways to build your character..
One of my most memorable moments in an MMORPG was this :
I had been playing for a few months, finally got my house up and running in my new guild's city, they were Imperials - I was covert, but when i did own me a nice TIE pilot outfit
-- Anyways, i remember doing some missions, and getting a tell to report to the city, it was under-attack by an overt rebel alliance --
When i arrived, nothing was happening, every once and while one of our auto turrets would take a shot at a Expert Scout who was... well.. scouting us out, and got to close to the city walls.. and then all of a sudden our Governer ordered for all of us to saddle up, and follow him, something was going down in the southern part of the city...
Then about 50 so of us all got on our speeders, and cruisers, (Lag fest at first), and motorcaded down to the point mentioned...
When i arrived.. the scene was chaos.. and FREAKING AWESOME, about 100 or so rebels were razing our city, and fighting in a very tactical fashion inching closer, and closer... towards our Guild Hall.. when we arrived it was a much needed rienforcements to our allies who were being overwhelming, we started to route the rebels, thinking victory was in hand we chased after them to land killing blows --
As we turned the corner, we were faced with about 15-20 rebels all in a circle.. protecting something...
and that something was...a Jedi Master... not a FS Toon, or an intiate.. but a full blown master with a custom and very expensive LightSaber...
We knew then that it was over.. we would all die in moments...
After i returned to the battle from the cloning stations after i died.. i returned to a even bigger mess of chaos... turns out several of the larger imperial guilds found out about the Jedi master....
They didn't much care about our plight to save our city from burning... but the chance to kill a Jedi Master was something that could not turn down... nor could the Sith...
I'm not really sure what happened from there, as the lag pretty much stille framed my old rig at the time, but from my understanding the Jedi Master was overwhelmed, and at some point some low level imperial overt Force Intiates killed him.
Even in that game you could achieve such a value that hundreds would die to keep your character alive...
Aside from maybe being the Archlord in Archlord... what other game could boast such a thing? In lineage 2 there were 2 special swords... which made your name red if you wielded them, but they granted amazing power.. but people would hunt you to take those swords....
I understand the OP. But my angle was FFXI. I was the mage with teleportation spell. I was well loved (or well used by the occasional snot nose). That game would have rocked all if the economy wasn't such a fail.