I make an exception for RFonline though as it only really had endgame and the chip wars were awesome.
There is NO miracle patch.
95% of what you see in beta won't change by launch.
Hope is not a stategy. ______________________________ "This kind of topic is like one of those little cartoon boxes held up by a stick on a string, with a piece of meat under it. In other words, bait."
None of the above. I like to explore, discover new places, new ways to do things, new things to fight, new items to make, new ways to allocate skill points, even new stuff to decorate my apartment with.
I really enjoy having stuff to do at skill/level cap that doesn't involve raiding or repeating content. Don't get me wrong -- raids are cool and all, but I really only want to get through them once to experience them. I'm not intersted in putting a raid "on farm" and doing it every weekend to gain additional trinkets. I want just enough gear to be able to clear the raid.
HOWEVER!
I do love gear as it applies to PvP. I love PvP and I like the idea of earning gear and other rewards for doing well at it and dedicating myself to it. There are some pitfalls though, see: Warhammer Online Renown Ranks. Players with super high renown gear in WAR could obliterate other players who were freshly at cap. Reward is fine, but I think it needs to be more about visual reward than statistical. Meaning, people seeing me in some crazy gear knowing that I'm serious about PvP, and that the gear gives me a bit of an edge too, but not so much as to basically throw any semblance of skill out the window.
Oh, and guild politics are fun! YOUR GUILD IS NOW K.O.S.!
None of the above. I like to explore, discover new places, new ways to do things, new things to fight, new items to make, new ways to allocate skill points, even new stuff to decorate my apartment with.
This.
Ditto so I did not vote. I just have to add some socialisation and meaningful PvP in there.
None of the above. I like to explore, discover new places, new ways to do things, new things to fight, new items to make, new ways to allocate skill points, even new stuff to decorate my apartment with.
Beat me to it. Where is the exploration option? (Either in this poll, or in games in general . . . )
Fun at all time. Progression is just the topping. And no, I don't like to have an entertainment product I pay for "punish me for behaving badly" like I'm a bored british PM hiring a cheap BDSM hooker. I'm not that depraved yet.
I'm playing TF2 for more than a year now and I really don't miss that "progression" thing hamsters seem to be so much into. Funny hats are all I need.
Really, that old Skinnerian box is just so last tuesday.
I didn't vote because i don't play mmorpg's for any off the reasons you listed.
1. Constant Progression:
I have never been a big fan of the gear grind themepark games and if you have to wait for new content all the time then it's just not a very good game. MMO's should provide worlds with unlimited options to a degree, the ability to explore the world and create content within that world either solo or with others.
A well made MMO is not about progression of ones gear or level but the experience within the game world and your relation to your toon.
2. Having Fun at Level/cap:
Well made MMO's do not place limits on ones toon in regards to levels/caps, there should never be an end game. Worlds and charecters within that world should have the freedom to always evolve over many years, the ability to change ones focus and skills at anytime creates freedom and longevity.
The abilty to change what your toons main focus at any given time allows you to develope a conection with that charecter and the world around you. Open skill based systems that can be modified at any given time prevents people from having to re-roll or start over.
3. Risk vs Rewards:
Who wants to lose gear or skill points? I'm sure some might find that exciting but for the majority i don't think it's that appealing. Full loot systems do nothing but discourage players from participating in PvP and or even prevent them from playing the game.
What makes PvP so fun is the unexpected Open World encounters and fair game play. Give players a reason to explore the world and you will have non stop PvP. There doesn't need to be rewards for PvP to get people to do it, you just need to create a world where it's part of your everyday experience.
None of these choices you listed need to be a part of an MMO. This is purely a Themepark point of view and is the reason why all these AAA themepark games don't last more then 6 months until you un sub and move on to the next one.
Just my opinion.
"It would be awesome if you could duel your companion. Then you could solo pvp".--Thanes
I'm a constant progression guy myself. Not in terms of raiding or gear progression, but of exploring new places, gaining new spells, and earning new levels. Basically, my favorite part of the game is the leveling process, and usually when I get to the cap in any game I find myself very sad that the adventure part is over and I'm left with repeating content and "grinding for gear".
Try to be excellent to everyone you meet. You never know what someone else has seen or endured.
There's some pretty solid reasons level/skill caps exist, not the least of which is that developers cannot possibly stay ahead of two percenters, or even the pokey levelers, in the long run.
Continual leveling also exposes the flaws in your economics, i.e. "I've bought everything there is to buy, there's just no point to gold any more."
And of course, the combat math in most games cannot be extended into infinity without severe breakdowns or impossible imbalances.
Let's not go around crushing Thor because we're bored and want his hammer, ever again.
It makes for a not-good game, in just about every conceivable way.
"This is a situation greatly deplored by most gamers, and discouraged sternly in the gamemaster's section of all later games, but it is assumed that everyone went through this stage at some early point in his gaming "career." "
Of course Monty Haul campaigns vanished after a few years of D&D, so many of the younger players have never encountered one. But infinite progression + voracious consumption of content (or just grinding away like only a Two Percenter can) leads inevitably to a core balance breakdown that really can't be rectified.
Doesn't MO have the infinite uncapped skill progression (or is it Darkfall?) Extraordinarily unfriendly to new players.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I think some form of progression is important, even if its really minor. Gear doesn't work for me, because you just have a few pieces, and you're always upgrading.. doesn't feel like part of my character. Not like realm abilities, which were just little +1% bonuses that took forever to get, but they were permenent and cumulative, once I got them.
I think social dynamics are hugely important, too. I need a reason to join a guild, and content that helps me support the guild, or fight for it, and that sort of thing.
Content that's dynamic also helps a whole lot. I think this is one reason players often look to PvP - PvE is too predictable, and easily exhausted. Endgame content needs to be part of a dynamic everchanging system, for me, because I can't stand just waiting for the devs to add more, knowing I'll just finish that too, and end up waiting again.
That's just me though.. none of this describes WoW, as you might notice, and I hear that endgame is pretty popular anyhow. I think its more due to the sheeple effect though, because WoW has such a well done early/mid game. By endgame, people stick around because of the massive community that it's accumulated because of that.. even though the endgame is crap, they still go along with it. This is why cloning it fails so badly. WIthout the sheeple effect, it's exposed for the terrible endgame that it is.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Virtual World Experience. Exploration. Interaction with the MMO world and other characters (Players).
Constat Progression? Not really important to me.
Fun at Level Cap? Most MMOs are not fun at level cap as far as I am concerned. Boring in fact... but then I am no fan of PvP(now in 2011) and I hate Raiding so I would find most end game content boring.
Risk vs. Reward? Depends on what Risks, and what Rewards. Too open ended to comment on.
Give me a huge, massive, and Persistant open world in a MMORPG and I am happy. Instances are automatic FAILS
Example: LotRO's millions of Instances = Fail. (Turbine dumped a big smelly one on Middle Earth with all the Instances and the Skirmish system they added post SoA.)
Example 2: DAoC's (old) Darkness Falls Dungeon = WIN (even though it is PvP I still consider it 100% win)
Now days it feels like games are so supperficial. The idea behind the mmo is to live an alternate life in a reality based on fantasy. How can a mmo truly be grand when there is no attachment to your character. When you don't struggle and suffer to become stronger. This is the single reason why I think FFXI was the best mmo ever. I played the same character for 6 years with over 500 days of play time on that one character. I played rift for 4 months level'd 4 characters to lvl 40, and don't even remember their names. there was no connection at all. no driving force behind a single character that wanted me to become better and stronger to gain the respect of my peers.
These mmo's lately have no soul. They are just watered down spoon fed versions of shallow content. There is no way that people 20-30 years old that haven been playing mmo's for over a decade are going to find the current generation of dumbed down easy mode content engaging. Give me back the days where I accidentally introduce myself as my character name, and when I want to know how old someone is I ask their level instead. Give me back the days when I don't just play a game, but I get lost in an amazing world and really feel that amazing connection with my fantasy.
Now days it feels like games are so supperficial. The idea behind the mmo is to live an alternate life in a reality based on fantasy. How can a mmo truly be grand when there is no attachment to your character. When you don't struggle and suffer to become stronger. This is the single reason why I think FFXI was the best mmo ever. I played the same character for 6 years with over 500 days of play time on that one character. I played rift for 4 months level'd 4 characters to lvl 40, and don't even remember their names. there was no connection at all. no driving force behind a single character that wanted me to become better and stronger to gain the respect of my peers.
These mmo's lately have no soul. They are just watered down spoon fed versions of shallow content. There is no way that people 20-30 years old that haven been playing mmo's for over a decade are going to find the current generation of dumbed down easy mode content engaging. Give me back the days where I accidentally introduce myself as my character name, and when I want to know how old someone is I ask their level instead. Give me back the days when I don't just play a game, but I get lost in an amazing world and really feel that amazing connection with my fantasy.
OK, add to my comments my complete support of THIS.
Honestly i don't know anymore. They don't really keep me since a long time now. I still play mmos, but i just log in few days, stop for few months. And this back and forth.
I don't really like any grind mechanism, that's for sure, its so bland. Im' more of a reward/risk i think, but just because of the lack of a good rp community and a mmo based on role playing. If i could still play some pen&paper, that's probably what i would do, but its not possible in my case.
Comments
There is NO miracle patch.
95% of what you see in beta won't change by launch.
Hope is not a stategy.
______________________________
"This kind of topic is like one of those little cartoon boxes held up by a stick on a string, with a piece of meat under it. In other words, bait."
This.
Meant to vote option two! Sorry!
I really enjoy having stuff to do at skill/level cap that doesn't involve raiding or repeating content. Don't get me wrong -- raids are cool and all, but I really only want to get through them once to experience them. I'm not intersted in putting a raid "on farm" and doing it every weekend to gain additional trinkets. I want just enough gear to be able to clear the raid.
HOWEVER!
I do love gear as it applies to PvP. I love PvP and I like the idea of earning gear and other rewards for doing well at it and dedicating myself to it. There are some pitfalls though, see: Warhammer Online Renown Ranks. Players with super high renown gear in WAR could obliterate other players who were freshly at cap. Reward is fine, but I think it needs to be more about visual reward than statistical. Meaning, people seeing me in some crazy gear knowing that I'm serious about PvP, and that the gear gives me a bit of an edge too, but not so much as to basically throw any semblance of skill out the window.
Oh, and guild politics are fun! YOUR GUILD IS NOW K.O.S.!
Ditto so I did not vote. I just have to add some socialisation and meaningful PvP in there.
My theme song.
Beat me to it. Where is the exploration option? (Either in this poll, or in games in general . . . )
Option 4
Fun at all time. Progression is just the topping. And no, I don't like to have an entertainment product I pay for "punish me for behaving badly" like I'm a bored british PM hiring a cheap BDSM hooker. I'm not that depraved yet.
I'm playing TF2 for more than a year now and I really don't miss that "progression" thing hamsters seem to be so much into. Funny hats are all I need.
Really, that old Skinnerian box is just so last tuesday.
I didn't vote because i don't play mmorpg's for any off the reasons you listed.
1. Constant Progression:
I have never been a big fan of the gear grind themepark games and if you have to wait for new content all the time then it's just not a very good game. MMO's should provide worlds with unlimited options to a degree, the ability to explore the world and create content within that world either solo or with others.
A well made MMO is not about progression of ones gear or level but the experience within the game world and your relation to your toon.
2. Having Fun at Level/cap:
Well made MMO's do not place limits on ones toon in regards to levels/caps, there should never be an end game. Worlds and charecters within that world should have the freedom to always evolve over many years, the ability to change ones focus and skills at anytime creates freedom and longevity.
The abilty to change what your toons main focus at any given time allows you to develope a conection with that charecter and the world around you. Open skill based systems that can be modified at any given time prevents people from having to re-roll or start over.
3. Risk vs Rewards:
Who wants to lose gear or skill points? I'm sure some might find that exciting but for the majority i don't think it's that appealing. Full loot systems do nothing but discourage players from participating in PvP and or even prevent them from playing the game.
What makes PvP so fun is the unexpected Open World encounters and fair game play. Give players a reason to explore the world and you will have non stop PvP. There doesn't need to be rewards for PvP to get people to do it, you just need to create a world where it's part of your everyday experience.
None of these choices you listed need to be a part of an MMO. This is purely a Themepark point of view and is the reason why all these AAA themepark games don't last more then 6 months until you un sub and move on to the next one.
Just my opinion.
"It would be awesome if you could duel your companion. Then you could solo pvp".--Thanes
I'm a constant progression guy myself. Not in terms of raiding or gear progression, but of exploring new places, gaining new spells, and earning new levels. Basically, my favorite part of the game is the leveling process, and usually when I get to the cap in any game I find myself very sad that the adventure part is over and I'm left with repeating content and "grinding for gear".
Try to be excellent to everyone you meet. You never know what someone else has seen or endured.
My Review Manifesto
Follow me on Twitter if you dare.
See: Monty Haul.
There's some pretty solid reasons level/skill caps exist, not the least of which is that developers cannot possibly stay ahead of two percenters, or even the pokey levelers, in the long run.
Continual leveling also exposes the flaws in your economics, i.e. "I've bought everything there is to buy, there's just no point to gold any more."
And of course, the combat math in most games cannot be extended into infinity without severe breakdowns or impossible imbalances.
Let's not go around crushing Thor because we're bored and want his hammer, ever again.
It makes for a not-good game, in just about every conceivable way.
"This is a situation greatly deplored by most gamers, and discouraged sternly in the gamemaster's section of all later games, but it is assumed that everyone went through this stage at some early point in his gaming "career." "
Of course Monty Haul campaigns vanished after a few years of D&D, so many of the younger players have never encountered one. But infinite progression + voracious consumption of content (or just grinding away like only a Two Percenter can) leads inevitably to a core balance breakdown that really can't be rectified.
Doesn't MO have the infinite uncapped skill progression (or is it Darkfall?) Extraordinarily unfriendly to new players.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I think some form of progression is important, even if its really minor. Gear doesn't work for me, because you just have a few pieces, and you're always upgrading.. doesn't feel like part of my character. Not like realm abilities, which were just little +1% bonuses that took forever to get, but they were permenent and cumulative, once I got them.
I think social dynamics are hugely important, too. I need a reason to join a guild, and content that helps me support the guild, or fight for it, and that sort of thing.
Content that's dynamic also helps a whole lot. I think this is one reason players often look to PvP - PvE is too predictable, and easily exhausted. Endgame content needs to be part of a dynamic everchanging system, for me, because I can't stand just waiting for the devs to add more, knowing I'll just finish that too, and end up waiting again.
That's just me though.. none of this describes WoW, as you might notice, and I hear that endgame is pretty popular anyhow. I think its more due to the sheeple effect though, because WoW has such a well done early/mid game. By endgame, people stick around because of the massive community that it's accumulated because of that.. even though the endgame is crap, they still go along with it. This is why cloning it fails so badly. WIthout the sheeple effect, it's exposed for the terrible endgame that it is.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
You didn't list my reason...
Virtual World Experience. Exploration. Interaction with the MMO world and other characters (Players).
Constat Progression? Not really important to me.
Fun at Level Cap? Most MMOs are not fun at level cap as far as I am concerned. Boring in fact... but then I am no fan of PvP(now in 2011) and I hate Raiding so I would find most end game content boring.
Risk vs. Reward? Depends on what Risks, and what Rewards. Too open ended to comment on.
Give me a huge, massive, and Persistant open world in a MMORPG and I am happy. Instances are automatic FAILS
Example: LotRO's millions of Instances = Fail. (Turbine dumped a big smelly one on Middle Earth with all the Instances and the Skirmish system they added post SoA.)
Example 2: DAoC's (old) Darkness Falls Dungeon = WIN (even though it is PvP I still consider it 100% win)
A connection to your character.
Now days it feels like games are so supperficial. The idea behind the mmo is to live an alternate life in a reality based on fantasy. How can a mmo truly be grand when there is no attachment to your character. When you don't struggle and suffer to become stronger. This is the single reason why I think FFXI was the best mmo ever. I played the same character for 6 years with over 500 days of play time on that one character. I played rift for 4 months level'd 4 characters to lvl 40, and don't even remember their names. there was no connection at all. no driving force behind a single character that wanted me to become better and stronger to gain the respect of my peers.
These mmo's lately have no soul. They are just watered down spoon fed versions of shallow content. There is no way that people 20-30 years old that haven been playing mmo's for over a decade are going to find the current generation of dumbed down easy mode content engaging. Give me back the days where I accidentally introduce myself as my character name, and when I want to know how old someone is I ask their level instead. Give me back the days when I don't just play a game, but I get lost in an amazing world and really feel that amazing connection with my fantasy.
OK, add to my comments my complete support of THIS.
I miss "this" too.
What keeps me playing?
Honestly i don't know anymore. They don't really keep me since a long time now. I still play mmos, but i just log in few days, stop for few months. And this back and forth.
I don't really like any grind mechanism, that's for sure, its so bland. Im' more of a reward/risk i think, but just because of the lack of a good rp community and a mmo based on role playing. If i could still play some pen&paper, that's probably what i would do, but its not possible in my case.
edit i didn't voted, dont' know why