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Why does this genre feel like they can demand innovation on command?
helthros
Member UncommonPosts: 1,449
I simply don't get it - I look at every other genre and you see the same games coming out every single year with minor little changes. Is MW3 really that different from previous CoD titles? Are all shooters really that different and innovative? What about RTS? I feel like SC2 is the original made more flashy and current. Have fighting games really evolved that much? Isn't it still just mashing a few buttons for combos or moves?
However, when it comes to MMO's, having quests, tab targeting and global cooldowns is automatic "the devs blow they are lazy blah blah". I keep seeing threads where people are not only upset with the current status of MMO's, but feel like they can demand something new (all the while providing zero ideas, but I digress).
So again, I ask, what makes MMO's so special that people feel like the wheel should be reinvented?
Comments
Actually, there is much more innovation going on in the single player genre than there is in the MMO(RPG) genre. FPS, RTS, Sports, and Fighting games don't really allow for much innovation other than graphical improvements, whereas the SPRPGs such as Skyrim really are innovating and feeding players desire for innovation. I think that players, seeing the innovations occuring in the SPRPG genre are frustrated that we aren't seeing that in MMO(RPG)s. As far as the premium titles, we are really just seeing the same game from 2003/2004 created over and over again with little itteration, because developers and investors are just too scared to risk something new.
Consdering the popularity of titles such as Skyrim, I think there is a desire and hunger for more openness in MMO(RPG)s, otherwise I don't think these titles would be so popular. Furthermore, I think seeing this evolution in SPRPGs, players are wanting those same features in a premium MMO(RPG), and they aren't getting them, which leads to massive dissapointment and anger.
I don't think anyone is asking for a reinvention of the wheel, but rather something other than a WoW derivative.
RTS is perfect example. Once huge sub-genre in video games, nowadays is much much smaller, at least comparably to position it had amongst video games genre around 10~ ago.
No innovation and apart of SC2 there is no new big RTS title atm. Most RTS games are niche or went into e-sport niche.
Just EA is trying to invest serious money first time since SC2 release in RTS genre to make new C&C.
RTS stopped evolving and players lost interest. Same will be with mmropg's if situation does not change.
RTS are coming back atm, sure they do - but it was after alot of dry years.
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For FPS games, you're sadly mistaken - while CoD is just same game released every year with new maps, there is pleothrora of FPS games out there. Really alot of them, and many of them are innovative in some way.
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Why there are calls for mmrppg's innovation?
Cause there is much MORE space for innovation than in other genres. Possibilities are wide, while in RTS games they are limited (unless we count MOBA as RTS, but I do NOT).
Second thing is that players KNOW that there is possiblity to make things diffrent than just carbon WoW-copiers cause there WERE diffrent designed and conceptualized mmorpg's in the past. Simple really.
The Nazi reference is really uncalled for. Baitpost.
Don't make the mistake of thinking the denizens of this site are anything even remotely resembling a representative sample of the MMO-playing public. If they were WoW would have 2,000 subs, tops, Eve would have 13million (albeit most of those would still be second, third, and fourth plex accounts, no doubt), and there would be nothing but FFA full-loot PvP sandboxes as far as the eye can see.
Reality is, of course, quite a bit different, and not for anything like the reasons you'll find given by the whiny and entitled burn outs that tend to hang out here.
Honestly, if you were making an MMO you would do well to come here, poll the MMORPG.com membership on everything you could think of, and then do the exact opposite of what they thought was best.
pure conjecture.
every genre's innovation is only limited by the people making the games. you say RTS has no room for innovation? this is a lack of imagination, nothing more.
sure, MMO's have MANY untapped possibilites, but so does everyting else.......
this 'MMO's are special!' mentality is overdone.
It all boils down to repetive mechanics. if you create an MMO and it's pretty cookie cutter standard MMO mechanics, you get people who have already been there and done that.
People who play MMOs now look at and compare more then they use to. If i played Wow for 7 years and SWTOR is out, why should i leave that investment of time in Wow to start all over again in TOR?
You see allot of that. even i decided to not play TOR after head start becuase in the long run I felt personally it was just another standard non reinviting the wheel stadard MMO mechincs based on previous MMOs
This genere has so many jaded players and thats becuase each new MMO is more or less the same ride.
It would be nice to see a MMO in this genre just step away from all that came before and start from scratch with no mind to not reinvent.
oh, easy.
it's cuz we are the 1% and we demand increasing perfection from all our luxuries. and truth be told, if you fail to answer yes to any demand i make, ill deprive you of my money, and give it to someone better, who will put it towards answering yes to my future yet unmade demands.
welcome to consumer capitalism.
Good answer.
Only problem is that in some cases niche consumers and their obsessive specificity of gameplay screw themselves over by refusing to settle. Sucks to be one of us sandboxers eh? :'(
i was just pointing out the timeframe in which Vrill Society flurished. nothing of the post was a correlation to Nazis. From a historical standpoint, 'Pre-Nazi Germany' is just pointing out a timeframe. it is often used in documentation. oh wait. next time, i'll just call it, "No-No time".
You can't say things like "many of them are innovative" and provide zero examples. What was innovative, battlefield with the destructable environment (hello Vindictus) ? I can't think of any new change that wasn't already done in Counter-Strike, Team Fortress, or Gears of War.
Every FPS is the same thing, you get the game to play multiplayer maps (usually death match) over and over again. There's about as much innovation in that genre as there is in themepark MMOs if not less.
As for your last comment - people 'think' they want those old school games, but those games are doomed to be just another niche game because contrary to how popular you think your opinion is, it's really not that popular.
What confuses me is how in any genre, when you get tired of what's available, you simply stop playing. I played Black Ops, I had fun I guess, but I have no intention of buying MW3 because I'm simply bored of it. I don't go on some high-horse crusade to bash FPS developers and try to change the game to my needs and desires, I just move on to something else.
I do that for MMOs too - I was worn out from themeparks for a while. I took a few years off and now I feel as though I'm ready to enjoy ToR.
However, it seems like a majority of the disgruntled players here can't accept the fact that they are worn out and instead downright demand that companies spend millions of dollars that will cater to their current desires (which can of course change on a whim).
I was like this for a while in browser mmorts games, and then I realized I was never going to achieve anything by complaining. I set out to make my ideal browser mmorts, 4/5 of the way through realized if I was gonna make my own game might as well go for broke and started work on my own sanbox mmorpg. In 10 years after I sell my self on the street and rob rich people enough to get the money I need to actually develop it in non text based browser format you guys can all benefit from my hard labor. And the cool thing about designing for this genre is, I don't have to worry about a major company getting together a real design team and ninjaing me, because they don't make enough money on it to bother.
First of all. Call of Duty is a fucking SERIES. It's expected to have shared components.
SWTOR isn't called WoW4 is it?
Seeing developers make money for being lazy useless assholes means the genre is being retarded (literal use of the term, not the vulgar slang) by people cutting corners.
Now if you had argued.. "What innovations came about from Modern Warfare 3 in comparison to Unreal Tournament 2003?!" I'd make a list for you.
That list would be longer in contrast to anything MMORPG developers using the WoW mixed back themepark model have thought of.
There's been some quality of life inventions, like dungeon finders and gear scores being easier to read. BUT even most of those seem like ways to escape actually making an engaging and worthwhile massively multiplayer role-playing game.
I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.
There are differences in RTS games. Play Supreme Commander and then play StarCraft 2 and tell me the differences. God, I love me some Supreme Commander Forged Allaince, mmmm.
Second, I've given out plently of ideas but they just fall on deaf ears. I was in the TOR beta and my ideas were probably too extreme at that point to be implented. They don't have to be huge changes but here are two.
1. The Galactic Trade Network is a mess. The UI is terrible and it's just another interface that connects you to an auction house. My idea was to have your companions set up shop somewhere with your goods to sell. To access these shops there is an elevator you must acess and has floors which are broken down to armor, weapons, and things like that. It's different from other MMOs but takes things from others as well. Like EQ where you set yourself up as the merchant. Here it's your companion.
2. Bonus quests could be tweeked a little. I don't like that tab system because it breaks that multiplayer feel of MMOs. It makes you fight against your own allies for mobs. With the bonus quests, I think if you did 25% damage, take damage, or heal you get credit for the bonus quest. Not experience or loot but your ticker moves up one for that kill.
Simple ideas, that change the game a bit but my ideas were ignored
You are right about the Call of Duty. If you go on metacritic or any forum you will hear people say it's modern warfare 2.5. The sales are still high for some reason, but a lot of gamers are not satisfied with the new game. So, the need for innovation doesn't really fall on MMOs alone. It falls on video games in general. If I'm playing with the same mechanics over and over again it's going to get stale to me and I'm likely not going to buy your product. That's just me anyway. I vote with my wallet.
I feel like I rambled, what were we talking about again?
I'm sorry but the only real difference between MW3 and old school Counter-Strike is the silly killstreak bonuses. Hell, in CS you had to manage your money through rounds and sometimes you couldn't get the ammo you needed. Now you start fully loaded every time - One could easily say it's been dumbed down much like WoW.
Guild Wars 2. Nough said.
I'm not going to defend the CoD series but....besides the killstreak bonuses they did add in the leveling system and unlock system that most FPS games follow now. But you're right, how much can you change an FPS game? Well, I guess you can add ground, water, and air vehicles as well (battlefield series). Maybe add in gravity that effects bullets so you have to shoot at an arc (battlefield). Add in some flashlights and laser sights to blind your oppenents (battlefield). I guess better destructable envoirnments are good too (battefield) as it changes the dynamic of the round over time. Jumping over obstacles now has an animation so you are more valunarable to attacks when you are jumping obstacles (battlefield). Having mortors, playing controled UAV, repair robots, laser painting, and all those things battlefield gives it's players to use is different form Counter Strike.
I can't think of anything else right now that is different from Counter Srike and new FPS games.
Newsflash
MMOs - not a genre
FPS - not a genre
Whaaaaaa? How am I suppose to categorize them then?
FPS - a game you play from a first person perspective (and can shoot things, but not only)
MMO - a game with massive ammounts of players online
First of all. Call of Duty is a fucking SERIES. It's expected to have shared components.
SWTOR isn't called WoW4 is it?
Seeing developers make money for being lazy useless assholes means the genre is being retarded (literal use of the term, not the vulgar slang) by people cutting corners.
Now if you had argued.. "What innovations came about from Modern Warfare 3 in comparison to Unreal Tournament 2003?!" I'd make a list for you.
That list would be longer in contrast to anything MMORPG developers using the WoW mixed back themepark model have thought of.
There's been some quality of life inventions, like dungeon finders and gear scores being easier to read. BUT even most of those seem like ways to escape actually making an engaging and worthwhile massively multiplayer role-playing game.
I'm sorry but the only real difference between MW3 and old school Counter-Strike is the silly killstreak bonuses. Hell, in CS you had to manage your money through rounds and sometimes you couldn't get the ammo you needed. Now you start fully loaded every time - One could easily say it's been dumbed down much like WoW.
Iron sights aiming is a big innovation.
Prone was a big deal for the FPS genre, not giving CoD credit for it alone.
What's a major difference between CoD multiplayer and Counter-Strike in design? Oh you don't know because you're blindly trying to make a point.
Well Call of Duty, even in their WW2 era games, invented a more radial multiplayer map design rather than the liner corridor shooting that was popular in all shooters before hand. That was a big change in tactics and is still one of the main reasons why people buy the series and enjoy it.
I like larger maps like in the Battlefield series myself, and that's also an innovation but mostly because tech has grown.
MMOs have done none of this. If anything quest and growth design has became more liner in the genre and that's why so many of us are calling for innovation.
Because MMOs are dumbing down, when something like a shooter that's biggest mechanic is "pull trigger" have actually grown exponentially.
Advice to you helthros, learn about crap before talking on it. Otherwise someone might mistake you for an idiot.
I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.
The money we invest friend.
MW3 i invest the price it cost me ( about £50 ) and a monthly sub that allows me to play any online game on the xbox ( £5 )
With an MMO i have to pay about the same for the game but then also pay around £ 10 to £15 a month to play that one single game.
With that in mind i want some kind of effort put into making the game.
But you are right that some take it to far and are kind of jealous against it,.
Quick point is lots of us do provide idea's to be fair, it's just theres no one here to listen
Ok, then how do u define a genre and what game genres are out there in your opinion.
like duh newbers, vidja games r 1 genres and books is 2 genre that is diffrunt.
I'm kidding.
Why get him started on it? LoL
I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.
Genres are game types, not categorized by presentation or specific mechanics (like being real time or round based).
This is also why you will not find a category "FPS" or "RTS" in (online-)stores. You will find "action", or "strategy", or "role playing"
Genres:
Role Playing
Action
Strategy
Adventure
Simulation
etc.
Congratulations. You can name entire genres that I haven't meaningfully looked at in over a decade.
What I really want in a new game that I play is something interesting that I haven't already played before. If I've played a game until I'm sick of it, then I don't want to move on to playing some other clone of it. Copying some other game that I haven't played won't get the game docked on the innovation count. But it will probably mean that I won't play the new game for the same reasons that I didn't play the old one.
Now, if I were unable to find any games that did things differently enough to satisfy me, then perhaps you could argue that I was being unreasonable. But I'm happily playing Uncharted Waters Online now, and still intend to go back to Spiral Knights, Champions Online, and Guild Wars at some future time, so I've got enough to keep me busy until Guild Wars 2 is out--even if it doesn't launch until 2013.
Games like Rift and SWTOR that don't bring much that is new aren't merely inadequate as compared to some unattainable ideal, but also as compared to games that are actually out on the market available to play right now. If people are happy playing games like that, then I wouldn't want to take that away from them, but those games won't get my money, as there are better alternatives.