Funny thing is we can all complain and bicker with each other with all the time we have but the truth of the matter is anything is only going to be good and acceptable when we want it to be.
NOt sure what you mean.. So I have to learn to accept less than I want ?
I have been playing TOR now since Beta and was sitting there after one session dissapointed and was wondering why.
It then dawned on me what it was; The only parallel I can think of is the analogy of the heavily advertised candy store:
1. You see this amazing ad for this great new candy store and being the sweet tooth that you are you decide to try it out.
2. You enter the candy store and are confronted with an array of brightly wrapped candies, all very enticing, with the promise of new flavours.
3. You decide to purchase a selection of said candy, rush home and expectantly unwrap one waiting for that first taste of something new......
4. Suddenly you realise you have tasted this candy before. But no! This cannot be! The ad said "Try our NEW candy with incredible new flavours"
5. You frantically start opening more candy only to discover at the end that there is nothing new with this candy at all. In fact, the candy you were previously buying was better.
Remember folks, never trust the candy man.
And after eating all that candy for so long my stomach starts to get upset and i start to vomit something fierce.
"It would be awesome if you could duel your companion. Then you could solo pvp".--Thanes
Actually, it was a terrible analogy, but I suppose some people are impressed by any mediocre parallel to the point they so fervently grasp.
Good analogies are an urban myth. They all suck.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
You see a new FPS on the shelves, Call of Duty 1001, You have to have this amazing new game! It is the best thing ever to have happened! Then you get it, you get home, you play it, and it's the same shit. BUT WAIT, no, it has, this one little new thing, or new guns and shit! Come on, I have yet to see a NEW, unique, or enjoyable FPS in years.
How about this?
You see a new Madden NFL 9999! You must have it! It is the most amazing thing ever! Oh wait, same shit, they just put new text above the little dudes head to make you think its a new player.
I hope this gets my point across. EVERY game, every style, is always a clone/copy of something before it. They change a thing or two here and there. If you do not enjoy this game, don't play it. I've been 50 a while now, running Hard modes, doing daily quests, and enjoying the game for the most part.
Please, complain about REAL issues with the game if you must. Like the fact fleet passes can be used (consumed) over and over w/o actually going anywhere. Or server lag making some fights nearly impossible. PvP being a joke with level 50's dumped in vs level 14's. Space combat being a pointless addon feature that offers NOTHING to the rest of the game.
Saying that "innovation doesn't exist" is a cop-out. If innovation didn't exist, we would all still be playing Pong.
If you want to see truly innovative games look at:
Dune II (first RTS)
Wolfenstein 3D (first FPS)
Dungeon and Dragons (probably first CRPG)
But these are extreme examples...some less extreme examples are:
Modern Warfare 1 (introduced concept of leveling up and buying stuff in multiplayer FPS's)
Halo (introduced the "regenerating shield" FPS mechanic)
UO (First MMORPG to actually use the term, brought MMORPG gaming into mainstream gaming market, defined "sandbox" MMORPGs)
EQ (Defined "theme park" MMORPGs)
WoW (Streamlined the grindy leveling process of EQ and gave MMORPGs mass market appeal)
SWTOR: Introduced fully voiced conversations with multiple decisions and outcomes to quest giving NPCs in the MMO genre, as well as a primary focus on storytelling.
I have been playing TOR now since Beta and was sitting there after one session dissapointed and was wondering why.
It then dawned on me what it was; The only parallel I can think of is the analogy of the heavily advertised candy store:
1. You see this amazing ad for this great new candy store and being the sweet tooth that you are you decide to try it out.
2. You enter the candy store and are confronted with an array of brightly wrapped candies, all very enticing, with the promise of new flavours.
3. You decide to purchase a selection of said candy, rush home and expectantly unwrap one waiting for that first taste of something new......
4. Suddenly you realise you have tasted this candy before. But no! This cannot be! The ad said "Try our NEW candy with incredible new flavours"
5. You frantically start opening more candy only to discover at the end that there is nothing new with this candy at all. In fact, the candy you were previously buying was better.
Remember folks, never trust the candy man.
Or your own expectations. Bioware delivered on exactly what they have said they would. Sadly your mind did not. The Game to date is well executed and delivered sadly not your utopian cup of tea, thats your problem. Better hopes and hype next time.
Some of us just enjoy games for what they are. "Games"
And I think without going any further into this lengthy thread, Isane has captured my own personal sentiments precisely. Player expectations. As long as one fervently & tenaciously holds these in some vice like death grip it's hard to appreciate some aspect of what it is their expectations don't allow them to see. Which isn't to say an individual can be firm about their preferences.
SWTOR: Introduced fully voiced conversations with multiple decisions and outcomes to quest giving NPCs in the MMO genre, as well as a primary focus on storytelling.
It's...debateable .
It only works if you qualify it by genre, because we all know that dialog choices existed in SPRPGs for a while. Now, you could argue that the same condition exists with MW1's progression system because RPG games had leveling systems for a long time. But I would counter that MW1's implementation of it was completely unique for an FPS game, and that was what made it innovative.
The dialog of SWTOR though? It's just a little too similar to how it works in SPRPGs. Like, almost exactly the same. I will give you that the multiplayer dialog feature (with the rolling and social points) is DEFINITELY innovative, no qualms there. But the rest of the dialog? It feels exactly the same as ME (which actually innovated the dialog wheel).
So that's my stance, it's innovative if you qualify it as being isolated to the MMORPG genre; but I don't consider it innovative in general. It doesn't really offer anything unique (beyond the aforementioned multiplayer dialog), and the MMORPG genre is pretty similar to the SPRPG genre from whence dialog wheels came.
Yeah it is, of course, the exact same as mass effect dialogue. And yes single player games have had it forever in different forms.
From my view though, it is something MMOs have always either lacked or half assed (AoC). I have always hated reading quest text. It's been prohibitive of learning the lore of these MMOs when I usually dig deeply into a single player RPGs story.
WoW for example, has a lot of story and it's a dealt deep source of lore, but I could never bring myself to care enough about it. Quests were just objectives and rewards to me, nothing more.
I really feel like it created a situation Where I can enjoy digging into the lore and learning about the story.
Now, I can accept if that isn't considered innovative by some, as it's been done before in single player games, but within the mmo genre it is something I have been wanting for years an noone has tried to or been able to pull it off.
I don't think it is the kind of innovation that will change the genre on the whole, simply because Bioware is uniquely suited to accomplish this. They are very experienced and skilled at creating these voiced stories and also have the funding and time available to do it right.
Yeah it is, of course, the exact same as mass effect dialogue. And yes single player games have had it forever in different forms.
From my view though, it is something MMOs have always either lacked or half assed (AoC). I have always hated reading quest text. It's been prohibitive of learning the lore of these MMOs when I usually dig deeply into a single player RPGs story.
WoW for example, has a lot of story and it's a dealt deep source of lore, but I could never bring myself to care enough about it. Quests were just objectives and rewards to me, nothing more.
I really feel like it created a situation Where I can enjoy digging into the lore and learning about the story.
Now, I can accept if that isn't considered innovative by some, as it's been done before in single player games, but within the mmo genre it is something I have been wanting for years an noone has tried to or been able to pull it off.
I don't think it is the kind of innovation that will change the genre on the whole, simply because Bioware is uniquely suited to accomplish this. They are very experienced and skilled at creating these voiced stories and also have the funding and time available to do it right.
We are in agreement, and I'm glad that you're enjoying it .
I always skipped WoW's quests too lol. For some reason, SWTOR's dialog just failed to grip me, not sure why. But I'm glad that some folks are enjoying it.
I think SWTOR is the same as DCUO, Rift, WAR and so on... they all show nice videos and talk about how new and great everything will be. They change pictures and videos to prove that. And ofc we fall for it, we still hope that it WILL be the NEW thing...
Then the game is out and maybe one or two things are "new" the rest is the same and they "didn*t" have time to add this and that. Or some other excuse.
Later the game become F2P and for some reason they add more and more every month.... but you must pay for that...
SWTOR will fall in some month. They talked too much like that dude from WAR and Funcom.
Tor didnt make any claims they couldn't back up-it is what they said it would be. They gave many opportunities to try it free before buying< dropped NDA so all could argue pros and cons. Don't see the problem. If someone bought it and it wasn't what they thought it would be, it's their bad.
Yeah it is, of course, the exact same as mass effect dialogue. And yes single player games have had it forever in different forms.
From my view though, it is something MMOs have always either lacked or half assed (AoC). I have always hated reading quest text. It's been prohibitive of learning the lore of these MMOs when I usually dig deeply into a single player RPGs story.
WoW for example, has a lot of story and it's a dealt deep source of lore, but I could never bring myself to care enough about it. Quests were just objectives and rewards to me, nothing more.
These are your failings, not the games you played.
Now, I can accept if that isn't considered innovative by some, as it's been done before in single player games, but within the mmo genre it is something I have been wanting for years an noone has tried to or been able to pull it off.
I don't think it is the kind of innovation that will change the genre on the whole, simply because Bioware is uniquely suited to accomplish this. They are very experienced and skilled at creating these voiced stories and also have the funding and time available to do it right.
Subjective. I personally don't think they did it right at all. They simply did it. In the most banal way possible.
"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
I think SWTOR is the same as DCUO, Rift, WAR and so on... they all show nice videos and talk about how new and great everything will be. They change pictures and videos to prove that. And ofc we fall for it, we still hope that it WILL be the NEW thing...
Then the game is out and maybe one or two things are "new" the rest is the same and they "didn*t" have time to add this and that. Or some other excuse.
Later the game become F2P and for some reason they add more and more every month.... but you must pay for that...
SWTOR will fall in some month. They talked too much like that dude from WAR and Funcom.
Tor didnt make any claims they couldn't back up-it is what they said it would be. They gave many opportunities to try it free before buying< dropped NDA so all could argue pros and cons. Don't see the problem. If someone bought it and it wasn't what they thought it would be, it's their bad.
To be fair there were some cons discussed, and some I myself didn't know about, when I mention it in game I was badmouthed .
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
You don't have to be completely new and game changing to spark a love for something, the issue comes when you don't offer anything new at all and its just the same exact taste with practically no changes. While twisting things up can work to draw attention, its something that is quickly lost in the depths of our memory. I'm sure you can remember you first MMO, but so many vivid details. Now think of another similar game. The memories are far less distinct, are they not?
Tor offers 0 in terms of anything new. Its just a twist of that Solo Player RPG dialog goodness with a generic topping of standerd MMO combat. While its acceptable for games to take from other sources, and having 'new' things is near impossible with so much of the gaming atmosphere already explored, TOR really has taken things so far to a T that you can find far to many simularities to other games.
A good example of a good way in which to change something that exist would be Rift. The soul tree took an idea of talent trees and advanced it to another level, making it into a different entity. Tor, on the other hand, took the exact formula for the talent system and copy and pasted it into the game.
Again, its near impossible to be all original and taking ideas from other games isn't always bad (lets face it, a lot of wow's popular features were taken from other games), but there comes a point where it really sticks out you aren't trying to be your own entity, and the whole ToR experience really feels like that to me. No matter the shiny wrapping you put on it, it doesn't hide its real title "Generic MMO with Single Player RPG mix Game". Come on Bioware, you had such a good chance to take your single player story telling and create a new way to play an MMO, and yet you just tacked in your own standerd dialog game in a way that I can't help but feel its near pointless.
Comments
NOt sure what you mean.. So I have to learn to accept less than I want ?
That is not the american way sir ! lol
See if you want to be the top candy you have 2 options:
1) Make the best candy.
2) Add something to regular candy.
Bioware adds chewing gum to the candy. Voila! Best candy ever, that will change candy forever!
An honest review of SW:TOR 6/10 (Danny Wojcicki)
ROFL
And after eating all that candy for so long my stomach starts to get upset and i start to vomit something fierce.
"It would be awesome if you could duel your companion. Then you could solo pvp".--Thanes
Good analogies are an urban myth. They all suck.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Saying that "innovation doesn't exist" is a cop-out. If innovation didn't exist, we would all still be playing Pong.
If you want to see truly innovative games look at:
Dune II (first RTS)
Wolfenstein 3D (first FPS)
Dungeon and Dragons (probably first CRPG)
But these are extreme examples...some less extreme examples are:
Modern Warfare 1 (introduced concept of leveling up and buying stuff in multiplayer FPS's)
Halo (introduced the "regenerating shield" FPS mechanic)
UO (First MMORPG to actually use the term, brought MMORPG gaming into mainstream gaming market, defined "sandbox" MMORPGs)
EQ (Defined "theme park" MMORPGs)
WoW (Streamlined the grindy leveling process of EQ and gave MMORPGs mass market appeal)
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
SWTOR: Introduced fully voiced conversations with multiple decisions and outcomes to quest giving NPCs in the MMO genre, as well as a primary focus on storytelling.
Shadow's Hand Guild
Open recruitment for
The Secret World - Dragons
Planetside 2 - Terran Republic
Tera - Dragonfall Server
http://www.shadowshand.com
And I think without going any further into this lengthy thread, Isane has captured my own personal sentiments precisely. Player expectations. As long as one fervently & tenaciously holds these in some vice like death grip it's hard to appreciate some aspect of what it is their expectations don't allow them to see. Which isn't to say an individual can be firm about their preferences.
Hey guys, lets stay on topic.
It's...debateable
.
It only works if you qualify it by genre, because we all know that dialog choices existed in SPRPGs for a while. Now, you could argue that the same condition exists with MW1's progression system because RPG games had leveling systems for a long time. But I would counter that MW1's implementation of it was completely unique for an FPS game, and that was what made it innovative.
The dialog of SWTOR though? It's just a little too similar to how it works in SPRPGs. Like, almost exactly the same. I will give you that the multiplayer dialog feature (with the rolling and social points) is DEFINITELY innovative, no qualms there. But the rest of the dialog? It feels exactly the same as ME (which actually innovated the dialog wheel).
So that's my stance, it's innovative if you qualify it as being isolated to the MMORPG genre; but I don't consider it innovative in general. It doesn't really offer anything unique (beyond the aforementioned multiplayer dialog), and the MMORPG genre is pretty similar to the SPRPG genre from whence dialog wheels came.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
From my view though, it is something MMOs have always either lacked or half assed (AoC). I have always hated reading quest text. It's been prohibitive of learning the lore of these MMOs when I usually dig deeply into a single player RPGs story.
WoW for example, has a lot of story and it's a dealt deep source of lore, but I could never bring myself to care enough about it. Quests were just objectives and rewards to me, nothing more.
I really feel like it created a situation Where I can enjoy digging into the lore and learning about the story.
Now, I can accept if that isn't considered innovative by some, as it's been done before in single player games, but within the mmo genre it is something I have been wanting for years an noone has tried to or been able to pull it off.
I don't think it is the kind of innovation that will change the genre on the whole, simply because Bioware is uniquely suited to accomplish this. They are very experienced and skilled at creating these voiced stories and also have the funding and time available to do it right.
Shadow's Hand Guild
Open recruitment for
The Secret World - Dragons
Planetside 2 - Terran Republic
Tera - Dragonfall Server
http://www.shadowshand.com
We are in agreement, and I'm glad that you're enjoying it
.
I always skipped WoW's quests too lol. For some reason, SWTOR's dialog just failed to grip me, not sure why. But I'm glad that some folks are enjoying it.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Tor didnt make any claims they couldn't back up-it is what they said it would be. They gave many opportunities to try it free before buying< dropped NDA so all could argue pros and cons. Don't see the problem. If someone bought it and it wasn't what they thought it would be, it's their bad.
"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
I need to take this advice more.
To be fair there were some cons discussed, and some I myself didn't know about, when I mention it in game I was badmouthed
.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
Now I'm craving candy. Thanks -_-
Do you want some cheese with that whine?
You don't have to be completely new and game changing to spark a love for something, the issue comes when you don't offer anything new at all and its just the same exact taste with practically no changes. While twisting things up can work to draw attention, its something that is quickly lost in the depths of our memory. I'm sure you can remember you first MMO, but so many vivid details. Now think of another similar game. The memories are far less distinct, are they not?
Tor offers 0 in terms of anything new. Its just a twist of that Solo Player RPG dialog goodness with a generic topping of standerd MMO combat. While its acceptable for games to take from other sources, and having 'new' things is near impossible with so much of the gaming atmosphere already explored, TOR really has taken things so far to a T that you can find far to many simularities to other games.
A good example of a good way in which to change something that exist would be Rift. The soul tree took an idea of talent trees and advanced it to another level, making it into a different entity. Tor, on the other hand, took the exact formula for the talent system and copy and pasted it into the game.
Again, its near impossible to be all original and taking ideas from other games isn't always bad (lets face it, a lot of wow's popular features were taken from other games), but there comes a point where it really sticks out you aren't trying to be your own entity, and the whole ToR experience really feels like that to me. No matter the shiny wrapping you put on it, it doesn't hide its real title "Generic MMO with Single Player RPG mix Game". Come on Bioware, you had such a good chance to take your single player story telling and create a new way to play an MMO, and yet you just tacked in your own standerd dialog game in a way that I can't help but feel its near pointless.