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I don't need talking dollies to be immersed.
pharazonic
Member Posts: 860
Forgive the flameworthy, sensationalist title. But that's essentially what can sum up this post that follows. I feel like I am alone in this, or in the extreme minority at the very best.
I see all these rave reviews regarding how this game is making everyone and their dog care about the story. How it's turning people into RPers.
My question is this: Is there anyone out there like me who DOESN'T need sounds and pretty cinematics to get into the story? Who can immerse themselves by reading the quest text? Is there anyone who doesn't need characters to be in their faces? Who doesn't need the text read aloud to them to feel involved in the story? Who doesn't need to be treated as the chosen superhero to care for the world?
Perhaps it is because I am a voracious reader - always have been - that I can stomach reading the quest text. I admit it can be dull, especially if you're trying to churn out levels. But for the most part, I don't need fancy bells and whistles to care about the setting or my own character.
(You don't have to read this)
I see people bash WoW all the time and say they can't go back because of the boring text. But reading the actual text reveals that the quests are far from boring - even in Cataclysm where I will concede that the overall story of WoW has gone south. I mean in Classic WoW, I remember being completely engrossed in the world. I remember meeting these two NPCs out in the wild, and they were trying to save these little creatures. I showed them I cared and at the end of the quest chain, I was surprised to see they rewarded me with a baby creature (Sprite Darter Hatchling). I did an epic quest to help the Blue Dragonflight that sent me across 2 continents.
In TBC, I was enthralled by the shattered world of Outland - one that I had seen in WC3: TFT and was eagre to explore; helping the inhabitants of Outland reclaim their home, and being touched by the horrific genocide they had to endure -- all of this I felt from the little text boxes.
In WotLK, the questing was unquestionably made even better - from the warring tribes of Sholazaar to this Lady you had to kill... and then you find out that she was being controlled against her will. And her father sends you a letter saying that he understands why you did what you had to do.
In Cataclysm, I remember questing in Darkshore, my main and first character's noob zone. And feeling a little upset seeing all these NPCs dead (yeah, I actually remembered them). I felt shocked and upset that the Archdruid Hamuul Runetotem was almost killed. It made me angry because I have known him since level 60, when he gave me quests in Silithus.
Similarly, in other MMOs, I don't need constant cinematics to care - RIFT - from the opening movie, I was hooked. Their starter zone, while pathetic for replayability, is very well done as far as actual player-game world-story interaction goes. Being Ascended was really cool till 50 till I realized Trion's focus on telling their story was in a mundane, grindy fashion.
Aion: Yes, the quests were awful in their criteria (kill 20 of these, 25 of those, etc) but again, it was really cool being a Daeva and getting to Sanctum felt very worthwhile. The quest texts were actually very interactive in Aion, and it was fun to see people's reactions when they discovered I was going to be a Daeva.
AoC: This MMO is guilty of the "chosen one" syndrome. But again, I did not need the story to feel immersed - the sound track, the graphics, the world and general feel of the quests were enough to get me into the gritty world of Hyboria. I would seriously play this game if the developers were not Funcom. AoC has a really wide array of emotes, and an awesome vanity tab. RPers check it out!
EVE: This is probably one of the other MMOs that was super immersive. From the detailed character creator to the melodious post-apocalyptic space-themed music to the very way their lore is presented - everything just works in EVE. Again, I did not need a talking character to get me into it. It was enough that I could fly to a beautifully crafted space station, Click on it, click info and read the info.
(Okay read from here)
Anyway, my point is this: Are my standards simply low? Is that it? That I am willing to read so that's why I am immersed? Is there anyone else like me who actually goes into the game caring about the lore?
Because I don't need an NPC to get me to RP; when I create a character, I am already in-character. I don't need to be prompted to do that. And I guess that's where the disconnect is. People are raving about the story... but that comes naturally to me, so I guess that's why I don't see it.
But I am a one-off?
PS. If this thread better belongs in the Pub, then please move it there. I was unsure where to put it - posted here because it largely concerns SWTOR and the people who play it and praise it for its execution. The execution of the story is certainly praiseworthy - and this is the crux of this post - is there ANYONE else to whom that execution does not matter to be engrossed in the game world?
"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
I need to take this advice more.
Comments
On a sidenote, I just had another thought that pushes me away from enjoying the "story" in this game:
People running around with the same companion. I don't usually RP in MMOs (mainly because I find the quality and focus of the RP trite), but this is a huge flaw to my immersion. I understand in MMOs, some belief has to be suspended.
But that's my question to RPers: how do you personally overcome this issue? Companions are a large part of the game so I'd imagine "ignoring" them (like how the central story in AoC can be easily ignored) is a tough task.
"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
I need to take this advice more.
then you dont need this game.... truly. move along.
Before this game came out i had no idea what a "story driven mmo" would be like and now that is out... the "strory driven mmo" is just like any other MMO with voice overs. Sure, the are a few places where you get some variation with the choices you make but outside of that the story is presented in the same way it has been presented for years; you walk around and talk to a quest giver, he gives you some info and you move along. When you are done you come back and talk to him again.
Like the OP i never had trouble with reading text and have enjoyed plenty of stories from quests.
WoW Sidequests
This
[Mod Edit]
As far as your contention....I always felt EQ was the best MMO ever made. I am starting to wonder how much of that is "climbing up hill both ways" types of memories. Every once in a while, as I play, I let out with a "I love being a turtle" in real life. This reference to the first TMNT movie is how much I am enjoying playing. Fuck ya all....it is no more silly than listening to Ben Grimm spout that it is "Clobberin Time".
OK time to get back online. WIll check boards before I crash about 4am.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
I guess I dont need it, I could get by with NPC mannequins staring out into space while I read some quest. text I suppose I could get by with a purely text based game like Zork with no graphics what so ever. I could also get by with Black and White television. But given the choice I prefer well done voice-overs and quest givers that actually look like they are alive.
Of course you don't need a story to be immersed. You'll be fully immersed taking in the sights in a good simulation, or even better, taking a walk out in the wilderness itself!
You don't have to be provided some background narrative for it. You can make up your own narrative to go with it, you can make up its past and stories. It may even be more immersive.
Story on the other hand, is not merely a tool for immersion, it's something else altogether. It has its own set of charms. People do tend to bring storytelling into every medium, because narrative is both a natural and an engrained thing to us, we reach for it automatically. It's immersive in its own way; by way of letting you identify with these "other people".
Think about movies. They don't need to have a narrative, and many filmmakers think the perceived necessity of a story is bringing the art of cinema down. Some are all for films that tell no story at all. Like paintings. I'd say that's a totally valid option.
Games have this other option where your character can be tabula rasa - an empty white sheet that you can fill as you want. It can practically be you. Some RPGs strive to have this. I always thought Bioware is from the other school, the classic storytelling one, where you have this in-depth character, this "someone else" that you can then identify with. It's a bit different in terms of immersion; because on some level you are reminded it's not you but you keep putting yourself in his shoes and trying to see live story through him (think Shepard). It's immersive in its own way; it has less freedom but this added layer of communication that storytelling provides.
So it has to do with what you're looking for. No, story is not a necessity for immersion; give me a beautiful world with vibrant sounds and solid "world" systems coded in but no story or combat, and I'll be immersed just walking around.
Though I may be even more immersed following a brilliantly conceived story.
If you don't need dollies to be immersed DON'T PLAY SW:TOR there you go problem solved life back to normal everyones happy. Me personally I loved my Action Man as a kid. Now it seems like many people who are not liking this evolution in the MMO space are upset and are trying to shout as loud as they can to stop this from happening but thats life isn't it? and never fear VO and Cinematics costs serious money and most other MMO companies cannot afford it so reading quest text will still be the standard so stop torturing yourself and move on. Bioware made this game primarily for Bioware fans and I'm a big Bioware RPG fan so I'm happy, I'm just sorry many others are not.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
Suspension of disbelief as simple as that, all stories require this and especially RP.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
I need to take this advice more.
"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
I need to take this advice more.
it just seems like there is a lot of "money, time, and effort" being spent on VO's that could be better spent on other, more pressing needs.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
No OP your not alone.
Its perfetly fine that you dont see fully VO's as immersive. Im in the same boat. I know exactly why I dont see it as immersive. Its because the game is an instanced, cut up, cesspool of zones, thats plays like a single player RPG, with multiplayer options. Maybe if the game had more of a living breathing world (Or universe in tors case) feel to it, it might be more immersive. World is the number 1 immersion breaker for me. A collection of zones IS NOT a world IMO. Cut those zones up to instances and that exponentially exacerbates the issue.
Sorry TOR fans if you dont agree with me but get over it im entitled to my opinion. Im not speaking for anyone but myself. All the while maybe trying to help the OP understand what his immersion breakers are.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
I like SWTOR the way it is, so I disagree big time with the OP.
The problem with most modern mmo's, like the very ones the OP mentioned is that they cater to the whiners who want instant-gratification and have the attention span of a squirrel.
So when BW finally brought back the rpg element to mmorpg, this OP complains because he prefers a mediocre game with less features? Funny at best. He is perfectly allowed to dislike a type of mmo, but don't sit there and flame it and whine until they change it into another boring modern mmo with no depth.
Stick with the mmo's on your list and/or just accept that diversity is the spice of life.
You said they brought the rpg back to mmorpg...
You know I'm for opinions and all...
If this is what rpg elements are suppose to be I'll go bake a cookie the size of russia and give it to you.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
I'll admit to not reading your whole post, mainly I skipped the part you told me too, but I would like to compliment you on the thought behind the post.
I don't need "talking dollies" to be immersed either. In fact, no one does. If they did, there wouldn't have been PnP RPGs or MUDs or any other accronym I could throw out there to make it sound like I know what I'm talking about.
However, "talking dollies", IMO, are quite nice and they add to my immersion.
Necessary? No. A welcome addition? To me, yes, but maybe not to you. And that's ok.
I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil
I definitely agree that cinematic storytelling is an evolution in gaming. Just as PnP games were translated to computers and so on.
That said, why all the ire for text based questing? Lazy players or is it truly that boring?
If only my case were looked at, it would be the former option. If the consensus of this thread was also looked at, however, the truth seems to lie somewhere in between.
With all that said, perhaps it' s the levelling system in MMOs that is broken and not just the way the information is conveyed to the player.
I don't see how reading, "Kill 10 rats" is worse than having an NPC tell you, "Kill 10 rats". Better yet he launches into a 10 minute story that culminates in "KIll 10 rats" and thus is utterly irrelevant and the end of the day, not to mention inefficient.
Text can convey the same character of the world that the spoken word can at a much cheaper, and flexible cost.
"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
I need to take this advice more.
"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
I need to take this advice more.
I don't need "talking dollies" when I'm playing with my virtual MMO dolly to be immersed. But I do like them.
It's a bit baity to imply that anyone who likes the dialogue scenes "needs" them and likes "dollies", don't you think?
I still play UO with graphics from 1998 .....
Still one of the best rp mmos out there...
Agree with OP wholeheartedly. It's not only that VOs and cinematics in games bore me, they actually detract from my immersion. Just like you have people running around all the time and you get used to it... and then in the cinematic everyone walks slowly. Or when it takes 5+ hits to down a rat and then the great hero gets felled by a single stroke.
Too many times cinematics look like they were made completely separate from the gameplay itself and even, worse yet, like the devs are somehow ashamed of the feel of the game. It's like they would rather be making movies if someone gave them a chance... but they are stuck working on video games. Bioware was always particularly guilty of this hollwwood-wannabe syndrome imo.
I'm working in the movie industry and I have no reason whatsoever to go looking for movies in my games. However, the estabilished press still considers the games somehow "inferior" to cinema and that is why you so often see no mention of gameplay in the mainstream press reviews as well as constant pathetic attempts to explain a game through movie lens (that many movies-worth of VO, that many hours of video, so much story...) I've read some mainstream "reviews" of SW:TOR and it's almost like they're saying: "What a great movie that would be, a pity it had to be made into s stinking kiddie video game". Basically they are one-trick ponies trying to judge a game by the closest standards they know, and that is movies which are somehow more "reputable" than "kiddie games."
Incidentally, this laughably ancient attitude is the reason why so many big dev companies still market their games at adolescents while the average gamer is over 30 years old. How many more decades have to pass till they finally stop thinking of games as a "kiddie pasttime" while grown-ups watch movies and read books?
As for SW:TOR, just watch and see what the situation is in 6 months or less. It will "inexplicably" fail, and "no one" will know why... with all those movies-worth of VO and all those hours of video... "We did our best to make the game as similar to a movie. How could it fail when we all know that all those people playing games would secretly rather watch movies on their PC. Inside every gamer is a movie-goer and we're here to help him get out!" Lol, I hope this finally gets some sense knocked into those investors heads.
And I find Bioware's attitude that "We know what is wrong with today's games, and that is that they are not movies" totally misguided and even despicable. Sacrificing the defining element of games, interactivity, for an element native to a completely different medium is like putting music boxes in books or installing electric buzzers in theatre seats. Pathetic.