People who say hacknslash is better than mmorpgs don't upset me. Thats fine, its popular and they like that game style. What pisses me off is if they want to turn the mmorpg genre which is not the hacknslash genre into that genre.
Lets just call hacknslash games that and only call actual mmorpgs mmorpgs. Its just a name? Seriously? Its a label. Labels are supposed to describe things. I don't call trees herbs and then say I'm not wrong, tree and herb are just words! Trees are not herbs. If you admit you want hacknslash, then no one cares because people have different likes, but don't mix coop hacknslash with mmorpgs. Leave them alone...
No one turns any genre into anything else.
Every player buy games they like. The market sort out what is popular, what is money-making, and what is not.
If developers respond to the market and put more hack-n-slash features into MMOs, well, you can go argue with them.
If they make it more like diablo eventually it crosses the line into lobby based hacknslash and its not an MMO anymore.
You are some authority who says whats MMO and whats not? This is what MMORPG means today. There's plenty of words that don't mean what they originally meant in every language. You're getting upset for nothing. They're MMOs. Deal with it.
Whatever colloquailist scumbag. At least you had the decency to concede that this wasn't what was originally meant by mmorpg.
That's 90% of the drama on this site. How can anyone express an idea when not even 2 people have the same idea on what any given word means?
Since we are all free to define anything as anything, have fun with your lobby based coop battle arenas and instanced crap, or as we will now be calling it:
Sorry, there are no ways to have a coherent, meaningful storyline in an MMO without instancing areas. Unless you can come up with a better way to insure that the right enemies will always be available in quests for the right number of opponents, developers will continue to use instancing to make their games functional.
I disagree...
True....other players may be able to farm your quest monsters, or interupt your boss fights in an instanceless dungeon.
This is where meaningful world PvP happens.
In Lineage 2 (back in the old days), a dungeon called Antharas' Lair was a HOT spot to level & get good drops. It was a huge non-instanced dungeon with several rooms & chambers to XP in. There were several occasions where an alliance (group of allied clans) would lock down the dungeon and only let fellow alliance members XP in the dungeon.
In your scenario, if someone was killing a quest monster I needed inside of a persistant dungeon, I could work out a deal with them (a display of player conflict resolution...something lacking in moderm MMOs), or I could take it by force (meaningful world PvP...something lacking in modern MMOs).
I'll be the first to admit....runing a scripted dungeon crawl experience in WOW after playing L2 was a NICE change of pace, but quickly got old and just as boring as using a dungeon as a glorified XP spot. it wasn't long until I missed those spontanious fights in the L2 dungeons.
Case in point....last night I was playing L2 and was minding my own business in a good dungeon room that was yielding pretty good XP. In the corner of my eye, I seen a red name (meaning a Player Killer) running right for me. Dieing would mean that I would get sent back to town...would have to rebuff, spend a bunch of money to port back to the dungeon and risked losing my spot to another group. There were meaningful consequences to letting this guy kill me....and as soon as I saw him, I felt a rush of adreneline in a way that I NEVER got from a WOW dungeon.
Very much different strokes for different folks....but instances are not the end all be all of dungeon crawling.
People who say hacknslash is better than mmorpgs don't upset me. Thats fine, its popular and they like that game style. What pisses me off is if they want to turn the mmorpg genre which is not the hacknslash genre into that genre.
Lets just call hacknslash games that and only call actual mmorpgs mmorpgs. Its just a name? Seriously? Its a label. Labels are supposed to describe things. I don't call trees herbs and then say I'm not wrong, tree and herb are just words! Trees are not herbs. If you admit you want hacknslash, then no one cares because people have different likes, but don't mix coop hacknslash with mmorpgs. Leave them alone...
Right on Right on!
That's the kicker for me. I migrated to MMORPGs (when MMOs were virtual worlds) because the allure of playing in a living breathing world with other people that I had to co-exist with (by blade or by branch) was exciting to me. I WANTED a game that I could settle in and spend a lot of time playing and developing wealth & friendships. It was more of a project or a hobby than a cheap entertainment fix.
Ever heard "If you build it, they will come" ?
Well Blizzard did. They recognized that the niche MMORPG genere had one of the gaming industries most lucrative pricing models...waisted on one of the gaming industries most niche audiences.
So they built a MMO for the masses.....and did a damn good job too. They pulled in MILLIONS of gamers former not associated with the MMO genere and have changed the face of the MMO playerbase.
Just like any audience, the new MMO crowd has wants and demands....and those features & game mechanics they are asking for are much different than what the original "virutal world" MMO gamers moved to the genere for.
Like you, I've got no bones about hack n' slash linear gear based progression games.....but the tradgedy in all of this is that while these casual gamers that are now in the MMO space can get their gaming fix just as easy in a FPS or single player console game.......the old school MMO fans have no other place to go.
People who say hacknslash is better than mmorpgs don't upset me. Thats fine, its popular and they like that game style. What pisses me off is if they want to turn the mmorpg genre which is not the hacknslash genre into that genre.
Lets just call hacknslash games that and only call actual mmorpgs mmorpgs. Its just a name? Seriously? Its a label. Labels are supposed to describe things. I don't call trees herbs and then say I'm not wrong, tree and herb are just words! Trees are not herbs. If you admit you want hacknslash, then no one cares because people have different likes, but don't mix coop hacknslash with mmorpgs. Leave them alone...
No one turns any genre into anything else.
Every player buy games they like. The market sort out what is popular, what is money-making, and what is not.
If developers respond to the market and put more hack-n-slash features into MMOs, well, you can go argue with them.
I beg to differ...
There weren't 12 million casual gamers beating down Blizzard's door to make them a MMORPG that was more like their casual single player experiences.
Before WOW came along, I think EQ posted the most subs (in the West) and that was only around 1 million (during a time where there wasn't a fraction of MMO competition like we have today)
The sudden surge of gamers in the MMO space after WOW was not organic. They came from other gaming generes because consoles (save n' pause) and FPS shooters (15 min wham bam thank you man play cycles) suited their casual play style.
Blizzard...being a successful business as they are, recognized that the gaming industries most lucrative pricing model (Box Fee + reoccuring monthly fee) was being waisted on the gaming industries most niche audience (MMORPGs).
You'll find in early dev interviews, that one of Blizzard's express intents while developing WOW was to increase its accessability. AKA....they wanted to remove the parts of MMO gaming that turned off gamings most LARGEST gaming audience....casual gamers.
They made sure that the learning curve was something a 5 year old could pick up
They made most of the game content soloable, as to not be dependent on socializing
They made an effort to remove most punative things found in traditional MMOs
And they continue to constantly make the game more stream lined and less demanding so that more people can access more content in the game.
Blizzard created a casual single player / co-op experience with some of the benefits of traditional MMORPGs....in addition to a crap ton of marketing and promotion.
This was absolutely a "If you build it, they will come" effort.
And now that they are all here in the MMO space, not a single big named MMO pulisher is willing to take a risk on any kind of MMO that doesn't directly compete for that very same casual audience.
HENCE....all the WOW clones we've seen over the last 3-4 years.
Whatever colloquailist scumbag. At least you had the decency to concede that this wasn't what was originally meant by mmorpg.
That's 90% of the drama on this site. How can anyone express an idea when not even 2 people have the same idea on what any given word means?
Since we are all free to define anything as anything, have fun with your lobby based coop battle arenas and instanced crap, or as we will now be calling it:
LBCBAAIC
and we will shorten it to:
LBC:
lobby based crap.
I like games designed for co-op play. Instanced dungeons have much more potential than non-instanced dungeons.
I prefer instanced PvP over open world PvP. It is easier to balance and therefore usually more balanced. People actually fight there. And it is frequent.
Your insults are wasted. I take the new games over the old ones any day. They are consistently more entertaining than the MMOs of old. I fully embrace the change.
Anyway, you are crying over spilt milk.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Vanilla WOW was actually a pretty good game. It was casual friendly fun game like COH.
It went down hill about 6 months before Burning Crusade when they hired all those EQ people and it turned into a "raid or die" and "farm instances for gear" game.
Vanilla WOW was actually a pretty good game. It was casual friendly fun game like COH.
It went down hill about 6 months before Burning Crusade when they hired all those EQ people and it turned into a "raid or die" and "farm instances for gear" game.
That is incorrect, the game moved from MC through to NAX in vanilla over a 2 year + period. The game revolved around raiding throught this period, with UBRS 15 and Strath 10 man being the early precursors to raiding. come TBC for the first 6 months it revolved around the major questlines, rep grinds,raids, heroics then later achieves.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Whatever colloquailist scumbag. At least you had the decency to concede that this wasn't what was originally meant by mmorpg.
That's 90% of the drama on this site. How can anyone express an idea when not even 2 people have the same idea on what any given word means?
Since we are all free to define anything as anything, have fun with your lobby based coop battle arenas and instanced crap, or as we will now be calling it:
LBCBAAIC
and we will shorten it to:
LBC:
lobby based crap.
Original meaning meant zinch.
Originally, RPGs are table top games played by a few friends. Now you use the term, people think about Skyrim.
So deal with it. Meaning of language changes ALL THE TIME.
You can argue your face blue and people will still call WOW an MMORPG.
Whatever colloquailist scumbag. At least you had the decency to concede that this wasn't what was originally meant by mmorpg.
That's 90% of the drama on this site. How can anyone express an idea when not even 2 people have the same idea on what any given word means?
Since we are all free to define anything as anything, have fun with your lobby based coop battle arenas and instanced crap, or as we will now be calling it:
LBCBAAIC
and we will shorten it to:
LBC:
lobby based crap.
I like games designed for co-op play. Instanced dungeons have much more potential than non-instanced dungeons.
More potential for what?
I'll agree with you in that instanced dungeons that offer a scripted experience is more entertaining than sitting in a room and XP grinding......the first few times you run it. After that, it becomes just as mondain and XP grinding in non-instanced dungeons. So this advantage becomes a wash after the first 10+ runs.
There are two main drawbacks to instanced dungeons....seperation from playerbase & killing meaningful open world PvP.
In games like WOW....where the best XP & Gear is to be had within Instances....people spend all their time inside these private versions of the game. I've played WOW for 4-5 years and I honestly can't tell you the name of a single person outside of my guild, much less anyone in the opposing faction.
In games like Lineage 2....where dungeons are non-instanced.....true there isn't enough monsters & XP spots to go around. This creates competition over territory & resources. I used to solo in dungeons and kept getting bullied out of my spot by small groups of people in clans. It prompted me to join a clan for backup / protection and ended up meeting some really cool folks...in addition to sparking up some pretty good MEANINGFUL open world PvP. Not random sneak attack ganking as you're passing through a zone (like in WOW) Its a real meaningful fight over something tangible.
I prefer instanced PvP over open world PvP. It is easier to balance and therefore usually more balanced. People actually fight there. And it is frequent.
Depends on what kind of instanced PvP you're talking about. Just about every modern MMO's version of Battlegrounds I've played in, that has a solo queue auto match system, has been infinately more disorganized and fustrating to PvP in than the open world PvP experiences I've seen in L2.
Many of these BG like PvP scenarios often times have some other tangible reward associated with "particpation" (honor points, gear) and you end up with people queueing up for these PvP scenarios with NO intent in actually playing the scenario. Most calls to organize the group before the match starts is met with silence or immature responses. Running solo queue BGs in WOW was one of the MOST FUSTRATING PvP experiences I've ever taken part in.
Territory wars in open world FFA games like L2 usually involve a guild or group of people meeting up somewhere before hand to buff and game plan.....then roll out to hunt opponets.
Your insults are wasted. I take the new games over the old ones any day. They are consistently more entertaining than the MMOs of old. I fully embrace the change.
Vanilla WOW was actually a pretty good game. It was casual friendly fun game like COH.
It went down hill about 6 months before Burning Crusade when they hired all those EQ people and it turned into a "raid or die" and "farm instances for gear" game.
That is incorrect, the game moved from MC through to NAX in vanilla over a 2 year + period. The game revolved around raiding throught this period, with UBRS 15 and Strath 10 man being the early precursors to raiding. come TBC for the first 6 months it revolved around the major questlines, rep grinds,raids, heroics then later achieves.
maybe I got the 6 month timeline wrong.
But the likes of AQ and NAX and whatnot came out AFTER they hired all those EQ people. Thats when I stopped liking the game.
I like games designed for co-op play. Instanced dungeons have much more potential than non-instanced dungeons.
More potential for what?
I'll agree with you in that instanced dungeons that offer a scripted experience is more entertaining than sitting in a room and XP grinding......the first few times you run it. After that, it becomes just as mondain and XP grinding in non-instanced dungeons. So this advantage becomes a wash after the first 10+ runs.
Better 10+ runs are not bad. Better than nothing.
In fact, I have run many of these scripted dungeons and even after a whle, they STILL beat grinding mobs.
There are two main drawbacks to instanced dungeons....seperation from playerbase & killing meaningful open world PvP.
Few cares about open world PvP. In fact, it is more an inconvenience than anything else. That is why WOW is no longer doing that. Separation of playerbase? So what? You see lots of players in major cities when you are waiting for your instance to pop.
In games like WOW....where the best XP & Gear is to be had within Instances....people spend all their time inside these private versions of the game. I've played WOW for 4-5 years and I honestly can't tell you the name of a single person outside of my guild, much less anyone in the opposing faction.
So? If the dungeon runs is fun, why do i care about knowing other people? I have my guild, and I have some family playing WOW. I have no time and i am not interested to know an additional 200 people.
In games like Lineage 2....where dungeons are non-instanced.....true there isn't enough monsters & XP spots to go around. This creates competition over territory & resources. I used to solo in dungeons and kept getting bullied out of my spot by small groups of people in clans. It prompted me to join a clan for backup / protection and ended up meeting some really cool folks...in addition to sparking up some pretty good MEANINGFUL open world PvP. Not random sneak attack ganking as you're passing through a zone (like in WOW) Its a real meaningful fight over something tangible.
Me, and prob everyone i know in wow, will never play a game like that. Open world PvP is just too aggravating and not fun.
Whatever colloquailist scumbag. At least you had the decency to concede that this wasn't what was originally meant by mmorpg.
That's 90% of the drama on this site. How can anyone express an idea when not even 2 people have the same idea on what any given word means?
Since we are all free to define anything as anything, have fun with your lobby based coop battle arenas and instanced crap, or as we will now be calling it:
LBCBAAIC
and we will shorten it to:
LBC:
lobby based crap.
Original meaning meant zinch.
Originally, RPGs are table top games played by a few friends. Now you use the term, people think about Skyrim.
So deal with it. Meaning of language changes ALL THE TIME.
You can argue your face blue and people will still call WOW an MMORPG.
They will call current WoW and its clones MMORPGs and I will call them LBCs. Everyone is happy.
I like games designed for co-op play. Instanced dungeons have much more potential than non-instanced dungeons.
More potential for what?
I'll agree with you in that instanced dungeons that offer a scripted experience is more entertaining than sitting in a room and XP grinding......the first few times you run it. After that, it becomes just as mondain and XP grinding in non-instanced dungeons. So this advantage becomes a wash after the first 10+ runs.
Better 10+ runs are not bad. Better than nothing.
In fact, I have run many of these scripted dungeons and even after a whle, they STILL beat grinding mobs.
The difference between grinding mobs abd mmorg instances is the social element, playing with real people. Otherwise why bother playing a mmorg? Worse, why try changing a mmorg to be a coorg or single player, better to play those if thats what you are after, and give youself choice (i have the choice between a mmorg, coorg or single player)
There are two main drawbacks to instanced dungeons....seperation from playerbase & killing meaningful open world PvP.
Few cares about open world PvP. In fact, it is more an inconvenience than anything else. That is why WOW is no longer doing that. Separation of playerbase? So what? You see lots of players in major cities when you are waiting for your instance to pop.
Im a pve player and even I appreciate other players enjoy pvp, it is not a single player game you are playing. The game is not revolving around you, it cannot revolve around 10000 people per server at the same time. This is born from people who think mememe and noty ususus.
In games like WOW....where the best XP & Gear is to be had within Instances....people spend all their time inside these private versions of the game. I've played WOW for 4-5 years and I honestly can't tell you the name of a single person outside of my guild, much less anyone in the opposing faction.
So? If the dungeon runs is fun, why do i care about knowing other people? I have my guild, and I have some family playing WOW. I have no time and i am not interested to know an additional 200 people.
fun after the 500th run with people you dont care about, whats fun about that, and what does it have to do with a mmorggame? - would be as well playing a coorg or a single player again.
simple choice:
Im a numpty:
I love style 'A' of game, so I want every game to be like 'A' I dont want diversity my tastes will never change(?), I want to pay my money over and over for the same style of game.
Im not a numpty:
I Love Style 'A' of game. Ill buy games that are style 'A'. I wont be stupid and buy games that are style 'B' of game, or buy it and whine if it isnt style 'A'. Oh I have a choice now, style 'A' and 'B'
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
I like games designed for co-op play. Instanced dungeons have much more potential than non-instanced dungeons.
More potential for what?
I'll agree with you in that instanced dungeons that offer a scripted experience is more entertaining than sitting in a room and XP grinding......the first few times you run it. After that, it becomes just as mondain and XP grinding in non-instanced dungeons. So this advantage becomes a wash after the first 10+ runs.
Better 10+ runs are not bad. Better than nothing.
In fact, I have run many of these scripted dungeons and even after a whle, they STILL beat grinding mobs.
There are two main drawbacks to instanced dungeons....seperation from playerbase & killing meaningful open world PvP.
Few cares about open world PvP. In fact, it is more an inconvenience than anything else. That is why WOW is no longer doing that. Separation of playerbase? So what? You see lots of players in major cities when you are waiting for your instance to pop.
In games like WOW....where the best XP & Gear is to be had within Instances....people spend all their time inside these private versions of the game. I've played WOW for 4-5 years and I honestly can't tell you the name of a single person outside of my guild, much less anyone in the opposing faction.
So? If the dungeon runs is fun, why do i care about knowing other people? I have my guild, and I have some family playing WOW. I have no time and i am not interested to know an additional 200 people.
In games like Lineage 2....where dungeons are non-instanced.....true there isn't enough monsters & XP spots to go around. This creates competition over territory & resources. I used to solo in dungeons and kept getting bullied out of my spot by small groups of people in clans. It prompted me to join a clan for backup / protection and ended up meeting some really cool folks...in addition to sparking up some pretty good MEANINGFUL open world PvP. Not random sneak attack ganking as you're passing through a zone (like in WOW) Its a real meaningful fight over something tangible.
Me, and prob everyone i know in wow, will never play a game like that. Open world PvP is just too aggravating and not fun.
WOW lol
If people that populate a MMO are just eye candy for you to look at while your waiting for your dungeon queue to pop....then I have to ask, why play MMORPGs at all?
It's not even worth debating with you. You're past the point of argueing the merits of specific MMO game mechanics. YOU don't like MMOs at all. What you do like is a lobby based co-op experience. There are PLENTY of these games around.
Companies like BioWare, EA, Blizzard, NCSoft need to take a page from this guys book. Instead of changing a unique genere of gaming....just connect their single player games to the internet and create a chat lobby for 5-10-15 man dungeon crawls.
fun after the 500th run with people you dont care about, whats fun about that, and what does it have to do with a mmorggame? - would be as well playing a coorg or a single player again.
^^^ THIS is why I quit WOW. Over the last year, I've attempted to get back into WOW several times. I've played all the lvl 1-80 content....with almost every class available. I've even resorted to reading the BOOKs to get me interested again.
And each time I logged in....I thought to myself.....okay, I'm in..now what do I do? Queue for Dungeon.
Dungeon queue pops and half way through the crawl I'm bored to tears because the people in my group might as well be poorly programed AI since no one talks to eachother...NOT EVEN to coordinate attacks (because the dungeons are just that easy). Every monster in the dungeon is burned down with little risk to anyone. Hell, even the "Bosses" go down in under 30 seconds. AND on top of that, I've run this dungeon 100 times already.
This happend every time I've attempted to play the game again....and I know I'm not the only one. lol
If people that populate a MMO are just eye candy for you to look at while your waiting for your dungeon queue to pop....then I have to ask, why play MMORPGs at all?
Tell me which non-MMORPG have:
1) dungeons with good scripted boss fights like WOW
2) with AH that millions participates
3) Have hundreds of mounts & pets to collect
And I will play that game too. I suppose D3 is going to be that game (without 3) and i am quite excited about that.
If people that populate a MMO are just eye candy for you to look at while your waiting for your dungeon queue to pop....then I have to ask, why play MMORPGs at all?
Tell me which non-MMORPG have:
1) dungeons with good scripted boss fights like WOW
2) with AH that millions participates
3) Have hundreds of mounts & pets to collect
And I will play that game too. I suppose D3 is going to be that game (without 3) and i am quite excited about that.
Fine. I hope you find a game like that. Still any of your point does not constitute mmorpg.
Non-mmorpg can have those points and mmoprg can have those points in gameplay as well.
If people that populate a MMO are just eye candy for you to look at while your waiting for your dungeon queue to pop....then I have to ask, why play MMORPGs at all?
Tell me which non-MMORPG have:
1) dungeons with good scripted boss fights like WOW
Jeez...pick any single player RPG game you like. The Boss fights typically have different triggers or phases they go into as the fight progresses. There is more strategery involved in a FF VII boss encounter than any WOW 5-10 man dungeon boss.
And if you're refering to the RAID bosses...well that would involve developing a relationship with players in the game that go past what you (and like minded gamers) are satisfied with. An effective Raid team needs to be on chat program and have experience developing a playing relationship together...a sort of chemistry so to speak. And even still.....the boss mechanics aren't that different than what you'd find from any Boss in an RPG that's been released in the last 5-7 years.
2) with AH that millions participates
You do not get to interact with millions of players on your servers AH. And really.....gold in WOW will only get you so far. So what's the difference from vendoring loot you get in a single player RPG and selling something in a AH. You NEVER see the person you buy or sell to. You NEVER haggle, bargian, or barter with a person you're doing business with.
So really...what is the difference between vendoring loot for cash in a Single Player game and putting some loot on a AH, only to collect your money or items via in game e-mail? LOL
3) Have hundreds of mounts & pets to collect
And this is the defining feature that brings you to MMOs? Aren't there a hundred Pokemon (and Pokemon clone) games out there for your Nintendo DS? Gotta collect them all! LOL
And I will play that game too. I suppose D3 is going to be that game (without 3) and i am quite excited about that.
Case in Point.....D3 is NOT a MMO, and is something right up your ally. So why turn a unique genere of gaming (MMORPGs) into a carbon copy of what the game industry is ALREADY doing with Single Player RPGs and Co-op lobby games?
Not a single thing you pointed out is unique to MMORPGs
Comments
Whatever colloquailist scumbag. At least you had the decency to concede that this wasn't what was originally meant by mmorpg.
That's 90% of the drama on this site. How can anyone express an idea when not even 2 people have the same idea on what any given word means?
Since we are all free to define anything as anything, have fun with your lobby based coop battle arenas and instanced crap, or as we will now be calling it:
LBCBAAIC
and we will shorten it to:
LBC:
lobby based crap.
I disagree...
True....other players may be able to farm your quest monsters, or interupt your boss fights in an instanceless dungeon.
This is where meaningful world PvP happens.
In Lineage 2 (back in the old days), a dungeon called Antharas' Lair was a HOT spot to level & get good drops. It was a huge non-instanced dungeon with several rooms & chambers to XP in. There were several occasions where an alliance (group of allied clans) would lock down the dungeon and only let fellow alliance members XP in the dungeon.
In your scenario, if someone was killing a quest monster I needed inside of a persistant dungeon, I could work out a deal with them (a display of player conflict resolution...something lacking in moderm MMOs), or I could take it by force (meaningful world PvP...something lacking in modern MMOs).
I'll be the first to admit....runing a scripted dungeon crawl experience in WOW after playing L2 was a NICE change of pace, but quickly got old and just as boring as using a dungeon as a glorified XP spot. it wasn't long until I missed those spontanious fights in the L2 dungeons.
Case in point....last night I was playing L2 and was minding my own business in a good dungeon room that was yielding pretty good XP. In the corner of my eye, I seen a red name (meaning a Player Killer) running right for me. Dieing would mean that I would get sent back to town...would have to rebuff, spend a bunch of money to port back to the dungeon and risked losing my spot to another group. There were meaningful consequences to letting this guy kill me....and as soon as I saw him, I felt a rush of adreneline in a way that I NEVER got from a WOW dungeon.
Very much different strokes for different folks....but instances are not the end all be all of dungeon crawling.
Right on Right on!
That's the kicker for me. I migrated to MMORPGs (when MMOs were virtual worlds) because the allure of playing in a living breathing world with other people that I had to co-exist with (by blade or by branch) was exciting to me. I WANTED a game that I could settle in and spend a lot of time playing and developing wealth & friendships. It was more of a project or a hobby than a cheap entertainment fix.
Ever heard "If you build it, they will come" ?
Well Blizzard did. They recognized that the niche MMORPG genere had one of the gaming industries most lucrative pricing models...waisted on one of the gaming industries most niche audiences.
So they built a MMO for the masses.....and did a damn good job too. They pulled in MILLIONS of gamers former not associated with the MMO genere and have changed the face of the MMO playerbase.
Just like any audience, the new MMO crowd has wants and demands....and those features & game mechanics they are asking for are much different than what the original "virutal world" MMO gamers moved to the genere for.
Like you, I've got no bones about hack n' slash linear gear based progression games.....but the tradgedy in all of this is that while these casual gamers that are now in the MMO space can get their gaming fix just as easy in a FPS or single player console game.......the old school MMO fans have no other place to go.
I beg to differ...
There weren't 12 million casual gamers beating down Blizzard's door to make them a MMORPG that was more like their casual single player experiences.
Before WOW came along, I think EQ posted the most subs (in the West) and that was only around 1 million (during a time where there wasn't a fraction of MMO competition like we have today)
The sudden surge of gamers in the MMO space after WOW was not organic. They came from other gaming generes because consoles (save n' pause) and FPS shooters (15 min wham bam thank you man play cycles) suited their casual play style.
Blizzard...being a successful business as they are, recognized that the gaming industries most lucrative pricing model (Box Fee + reoccuring monthly fee) was being waisted on the gaming industries most niche audience (MMORPGs).
You'll find in early dev interviews, that one of Blizzard's express intents while developing WOW was to increase its accessability. AKA....they wanted to remove the parts of MMO gaming that turned off gamings most LARGEST gaming audience....casual gamers.
They made sure that the learning curve was something a 5 year old could pick up
They made most of the game content soloable, as to not be dependent on socializing
They made an effort to remove most punative things found in traditional MMOs
And they continue to constantly make the game more stream lined and less demanding so that more people can access more content in the game.
Blizzard created a casual single player / co-op experience with some of the benefits of traditional MMORPGs....in addition to a crap ton of marketing and promotion.
This was absolutely a "If you build it, they will come" effort.
And now that they are all here in the MMO space, not a single big named MMO pulisher is willing to take a risk on any kind of MMO that doesn't directly compete for that very same casual audience.
HENCE....all the WOW clones we've seen over the last 3-4 years.
I like games designed for co-op play. Instanced dungeons have much more potential than non-instanced dungeons.
I prefer instanced PvP over open world PvP. It is easier to balance and therefore usually more balanced. People actually fight there. And it is frequent.
Your insults are wasted. I take the new games over the old ones any day. They are consistently more entertaining than the MMOs of old. I fully embrace the change.
Anyway, you are crying over spilt milk.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Vanilla WOW was actually a pretty good game. It was casual friendly fun game like COH.
It went down hill about 6 months before Burning Crusade when they hired all those EQ people and it turned into a "raid or die" and "farm instances for gear" game.
That is incorrect, the game moved from MC through to NAX in vanilla over a 2 year + period. The game revolved around raiding throught this period, with UBRS 15 and Strath 10 man being the early precursors to raiding. come TBC for the first 6 months it revolved around the major questlines, rep grinds,raids, heroics then later achieves.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Original meaning meant zinch.
Originally, RPGs are table top games played by a few friends. Now you use the term, people think about Skyrim.
So deal with it. Meaning of language changes ALL THE TIME.
You can argue your face blue and people will still call WOW an MMORPG.
maybe I got the 6 month timeline wrong.
But the likes of AQ and NAX and whatnot came out AFTER they hired all those EQ people. Thats when I stopped liking the game.
They will call current WoW and its clones MMORPGs and I will call them LBCs. Everyone is happy.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
WOW lol
If people that populate a MMO are just eye candy for you to look at while your waiting for your dungeon queue to pop....then I have to ask, why play MMORPGs at all?
It's not even worth debating with you. You're past the point of argueing the merits of specific MMO game mechanics. YOU don't like MMOs at all. What you do like is a lobby based co-op experience. There are PLENTY of these games around.
Companies like BioWare, EA, Blizzard, NCSoft need to take a page from this guys book. Instead of changing a unique genere of gaming....just connect their single player games to the internet and create a chat lobby for 5-10-15 man dungeon crawls.
^^^ THIS is why I quit WOW. Over the last year, I've attempted to get back into WOW several times. I've played all the lvl 1-80 content....with almost every class available. I've even resorted to reading the BOOKs to get me interested again.
And each time I logged in....I thought to myself.....okay, I'm in..now what do I do? Queue for Dungeon.
Dungeon queue pops and half way through the crawl I'm bored to tears because the people in my group might as well be poorly programed AI since no one talks to eachother...NOT EVEN to coordinate attacks (because the dungeons are just that easy). Every monster in the dungeon is burned down with little risk to anyone. Hell, even the "Bosses" go down in under 30 seconds. AND on top of that, I've run this dungeon 100 times already.
This happend every time I've attempted to play the game again....and I know I'm not the only one. lol
Tell me which non-MMORPG have:
1) dungeons with good scripted boss fights like WOW
2) with AH that millions participates
3) Have hundreds of mounts & pets to collect
And I will play that game too. I suppose D3 is going to be that game (without 3) and i am quite excited about that.
Fine. I hope you find a game like that. Still any of your point does not constitute mmorpg.
Non-mmorpg can have those points and mmoprg can have those points in gameplay as well.
Just to be clear.