Also, while i was playing Shadowbane i encountered a small amount of fear in death in certain circumstances. Of course, these circumstances only occured when i was out with my guild farming for gold to maintain our massive city. For those of you who havent played the game, SB was an amazing sandbox MMO with 100% PvP. Upon death, not only would your character lose xp, but your gear would take damage AND your entire inventory and gold was lootable upon death. So, after a couple of hours of farming, your backpacks full of loot, your gold pouches bulging you start to question the party leader about doing a bank run.
Of course, the party leader is on his minotaur warrior and has ENORMOUS amounts of strength and can carry 4 times the amount that you can so he wants to stay for one more pull. So, you pull the whole camp, like normal because we're bad asses, and out of the blue we get steam rolled by another party skipping through the forest. we all die. run back to our corpses and find that everything has been taken. except for the minotaur... who can carry all that stuff anyways!? All the gold gone though, for sure.
So, after your death and the run back, you're pissed. you put up a call in /guild or /nation. rally like 5 groups of players (50 players) and go attack the city that just steam rolled your group. Walah! a game with no quests providing it's own reason to do stuff. you get killed, you know who killed you, and you go kill them in their town and 5 hours later you have a full fleged war on.
In Closing. I havent had any fear of death, other than minor anoyance, in a while. but when i did have fear of death, it either made me play harder, or it provided me with a reason for retaliation!
Long Live the Sandbox!
(totally willing to try out perma death by the way)
This is the answer. The rest of you are unfortunate enough never to have felt what this guy is describing. Let's just say, it's liberating and rewarding to a degree you couldn't comprehend without experiencing it.
The last time I feared death? EQ1 Plane of Fear break-ins but even this really wasn't all that bad with a smart group. Could be done just fine with a single group. Feared this because body recovery (and the potentially loss of all equipment) was not essentially trivial like every other zone. Of course, this fear went away once the zone was on farm status.
Permadeath.
Certainly not with a standardly designed MMO. Characters are expected to survive for years and content is designed knowing that players are absolutely going to die many times before and after having successfully mastered the content.
Then we have, "On a long enough timeline. The survival rate for everyone drops to zero." Internet issues. Computer issues. Server issues. Noobs or trolls in the group. Simple mistakes or momentary distractions.
Permadeath is a workable concept but any power gains a player can make would probably have to be accumulable over an increadiblly short period of time. If power gains are time consuming and "limitless" then there is likely to end up being a few heavily supported "god mode" characters. While might be fun for some, I'm not sure how popular this would be.
It could, and does work in some small scale online games, and could probably be applied to MMOs but the gameplay and the incentives to continue playing would need to be much different.
Back in the day I was a newbie raider on my ranger and started a newbie PoF break in raid with the people who were not afraid to die and we'd stick at it till we broke in. (meaning it was safe at the entrance). I actually did about 5 or 6 really successful huge raids.... after that I kinda got tired of it.
Heh , we already got EVE-Online and only the real hardcore people, men and women ,plays EVE-Online , and I'm damn proud of being with a great community. Your hard work can go out the window in a matter of minutes but what defines EVE players are the guts that it takes to actually risk it all for the good of your corp / alliance , and honestly , you won't see the EVE phenomena anywhere else. CCP nailed it right with EVE-Online , although it doesn't have the numbers as other popular MMO , EVE has the best Mature / idiot ratio out of any MMO and that being having ALOT of bright , mature and funny people. Probably why I'm still glued to it since 2006 to this day and helping out a new corp achieve PvP glory , helping newbies taking the first steps into the great PvP world of EVE is exciting and risky business but in the end it's all about the team work and the fun , win or lose it's a learning experience for all.
The rest of the MMO world , meh, been there done that , sprites with swords and stuff , a lame death penalty , what's the point of controlling a hero if your scared of heading out town to PvP? I never understood that , yet those same people complain that EVE doesn't have the sense of character belonging because you pilot a ship? Please , that's so lame and pathetic that it makes no sense at all.
I don't define 'guts' as playing a video game. It's actually a bit sad that you do.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire: Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
Heh , we already got EVE-Online and only the real hardcore people, men and women ,plays EVE-Online , and I'm damn proud of being with a great community. Your hard work can go out the window in a matter of minutes but what defines EVE players are the guts that it takes to actually risk it all for the good of your corp / alliance , and honestly , you won't see the EVE phenomena anywhere else. CCP nailed it right with EVE-Online , although it doesn't have the numbers as other popular MMO , EVE has the best Mature / idiot ratio out of any MMO and that being having ALOT of bright , mature and funny people. Probably why I'm still glued to it since 2006 to this day and helping out a new corp achieve PvP glory , helping newbies taking the first steps into the great PvP world of EVE is exciting and risky business but in the end it's all about the team work and the fun , win or lose it's a learning experience for all.
The rest of the MMO world , meh, been there done that , sprites with swords and stuff , a lame death penalty , what's the point of controlling a hero if your scared of heading out town to PvP? I never understood that , yet those same people complain that EVE doesn't have the sense of character belonging because you pilot a ship? Please , that's so lame and pathetic that it makes no sense at all.
I don't define 'guts' as playing a video game. It's actually a bit sad that you do.
No kidding. No rational person fears perma-death in a video game. There isn't a 'guts' factor. People might believe they are video game tough guys with tons of guts, but that is where gaming starts to get people into weird psychological issues. Like dnd players who believe they actually are an elf. It's kind of the same thing.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
I can't think of any game that blocks you from permadeath if you want to play that way.
If you really want permadeath, simply delete your character when you die and re-roll.
You fail to grasp the concept of perma-death.
If you simply re-rolled on death, it would be just some bizarre self-inflicted punishment that would not affect the gaming environment around you.
If perma-death was obligatory, the real danger of death influences people's gameplay. You will not see people running about naked. People will think twice before seeking combat, and with whom they will seek it.
With increased risk comes a heightened sense of achievement from coming out alive. Increased satisfaction at pulling off a stunt most people wouldn't dare for fear of the consequences.
An optional perma-death is pointless.
... but that said, I think perma-death is too severe. Though death should carry a heavy enough punishment to make it unpleasant and something to avoid, perma-death simply seems a bit overboard, especially from a casual player's point of view. Some compromise is needed.
Actually they do run around naked. We've seen it from darkfall back to UO. You don't use your best gear. If you need to go from city to city, you strip down and make the naked run and then hit the bank when you get there.
It does make people think about when they want combat, so much so that it creates gank packs that can't do anything outside of their pack of dogs. (they would say wolves, clan, or gang, little difference other than semantics) So you are constantly tied to the lowest common denominator of time online. As folks get bored or tire of dying the pack dwindles and the ones that still want to play can't manage a pack size that can compete so they leave. then the other packs have fewer to fight so they dwindle and fall prey and quit as well, eventually the server is empty.
And the next paragraph is why amature game designers always mention things like perma-death. You immediately assume the role of winner. "heightened sense of achievement from coming out alive" but in the eyes of the designer, the truth is the minority win and even smaller minority win often, making everyone a loser and nobody plays a game to constantly lose. Your inexperience in the game design discipline makes you think that perma death is even close to a zero sum game, but over time it is anything but. Because winning doesn't return the same amount of reward that that the dying penalty imposes on the loser. Eventually everyone is dragged down and the game hemorrhages players and ends up empty.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire: Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
Ive been playing Realm of the Mad God lately... Omg the high from perma death is so great its hard to play other games now.
And Minecraft... I find some diamond and I my body tingles and I check my world map to make sure no other players are nearby and I try to hide the diamond somewhere safe asap. But minecraft varies a lot from server to server.
I'm playing Haven & Hearth atm and their implementation of perma death includes an option to pass dead char's possessions and some of his/her experience to your next character, sorta like a heritage. The game is crafting and pvp oriented and the learning curve is very steep.
It's a very harsh world (and the game is an indie production and in alpha stage, so gfx and UI are rough), but I do like the challenge and deep crafting. Check it out if you're interested in the concept of perma death in mmos.
create character. choose from available abilities.
play character. soul gains new abilties.
character dies. permanently. soul remains.
make new character...
Not gonna lie, I like this idea, a lot. Sounds well thought out and has a lot of fun concepts behind it.
Sounds somewhat interesting, but people become too attached to their characters. I could see this working pretty well for a game with a ghost theme. Maybe allowing players to possess the bodies of people and/or creatures. Maybe alow those bodies to grow with you, while both the body and the soul gain abilities. Soul abilities are kept if the body dies, but the body's abilities are lost.
Death would force the player to find a new body to possess.
Most MMO's (the majority) already have perma death.
Its what happens when a customer cancels and never goes back to that game. All those characters are permanently dead.
I would imagine most of the readers here have played multiple MMO's and have quite a few they are done with for good. Having perma death in an online environment would be a quick path to bankruptcy for a company. The issue isn't perma death in and of its self but seriously...
Server lags... you die and have to start over.
Mob is z-axis bugged and kicking the crap out of you and you can't fight back... start over.
Its a pvp game and other players are using an exploit.. whether they get banned or not... you're starting over.
I don't mind dying in a video game.. because I do a lot of odd things for amusement and like to explore. Its mostly that when I die I want it to be because of what I did... and the fact I actually lost the fight. (not due to a bug, exploit.. lag etc). When you have perma death the reason you died doesn't matter and there is no going back. That's the problem. If the technology was there to make sure none of those things happened it might be viable. Yet even then the idea of an MMO is to retain subscribers long term and who is really going to give up months or years of an investment and keep happily playing.
Death in an MMO has never really meant anything if you were prepared. What is the difference in playing a game where I spend 10 minutes running back and have a small repair bill... or playing Ultima Online where I took 10 minutes to run to the bank grab another bag of gear that cost about the same relative amount as the repair bill?
Even in EQ after you could get a 98% ress from your friendly cleric.. what did you lose? Now dying in the wrong place took some doing to get your corpse sometimes but really...
Devs right now are so far away from what I find interesting... death.. perma death should be at the bottom of any topic list when it comes to MMO's. The core mechanics are so bad.. who cares about what form of death or death penalty there is.
I'm designing my own game and have not yet gotten to death but I know it's going to be a mechanic of the game that is no less important than all the rest. I for one viewed this article because most of my game systems are redefining MMOs on some level and although redefinition is not my requirement for everything inclusive, I will be taking a long look at death just as much as anything else. It definitely won't be permadeath, but there have got to be enough consequences to train players to be a bit more cautious in their approaches.. if not, game immersion suffers.
To include permadeath into an MMO would require the elimination of anything remotely difficult. Most importantly there would be no raids...ever. Raids are specifically designed to be difficult challenges that require more than just stats. They include planning, timing, focus, and luck. They are puzzles to solved by a group as a whole and even when the right solution to the fight is learned it's a challenge to execute that solution.
No one in their right mind would ever risk their characters life where someone else in the group might miss their interrupt/taunt/dispell/heal for whatever reason (d/c, sneezed, or IM pop up minimized their game), and cause a wipe. Even the best gamblers in the universe would never bet on those odds.
I also find myself thinking that leveleling would be a system of trial and error with a steep learning curve. It would go something liek this.
1) Make a new character. Get to level 3 die.
2) Make second character. Get to level 6 and die.
3) Make third character. Get to level 9 and die.
4) Etc. etc.
There is just way too much at stake with permadeath to where the average player will simply not go for it. And I doubt enough elitist/hardcore players exist to support an MMO with permadeath. And while it may be somewhat humorous, I really don't want to travel the realm seeing names like Bastiltwo, Haxxoethree, or the like.
People complain that WoW is so easy. Imaging how much easire it would have to be if permadeath were worked into the game?
"That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange aeons even death may die."
While the CONCEPT of permadeath is great, and it adds danger and excitement, there are three big reasons I would prefer not to have it in a game I am playing.
1) Don't want to lose my charcater if I have a power failure, or lose internet connectivity, emergency bathroom break, etc...
2) Players will be forced somewhat to play as 'cowards' that take no real risks.
3) I can't handle the sense of lost time and effort even in single player rpg's that allow saving
1. I completely agree with you. I dont know if something could be done to counter that possibility. its ahuge prob for perma death system.
2.here i disagree. Yes many players will be afraid to die and put out their tails in danger tasks ,hard raids etc,enemy terittories etc etc There will be also though some players that will not.like RL u ll sort out the brave ones from the cowards.life is a risk heh.
3.Its a real sorrow if and when it happens. if u can handle it though or not its up to the game design package and mechanics.How much time for example it will take to make another equal in power character and will it be fun to lvl up again? Replaybility? Random elemnts?
For perma death i have thought a formula . A Soul bar similar to life bar where it increases every time u do a hard chain quest,achieve glorious various deeps in pvp or pve ,finishing dungeons etc and it decreases every time u die. So if power goes down from the computer or internet loss happens u wont loose your toon for dying 1time. that would add some strategy element to your character useage too when soul bar goes down near zero u can be more carefull not taking great risks etc etc but it just an idea i had not sure if it could work.
Maybe some company is someday willing to take the risk and make a AAA-grade product with perma death.
You're talking the same sort of micro-niche as FFA Full Loot PVP. Of interest to an extremely narrow subset of players, a self-limited game that's essentially guaranteed to never be a hit. Not many companies are willing to voluntarily castrate their income before their game even launches.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Or...if the game is designed well enough that there is no need for artificial raids to keep players interested in the game.
All it needs is some creative thinking outside the box.
I think there are enough players now who have gone through the "wow-era" and need and can handle a tougher challenge in a different kind of mmo.
Maybe some company is someday willing to take the risk and make a AAA-grade product with perma death.
Not sure what you mean about "artificial" raids. Taking out the group raids and dungeons pretty much takes out the "multiplayer" in MMOs. All you're left with is basically playing a single player game with chat functions to talk to other players.
The whole concept or MMOs is ultimately the group element. I don't think it is possible to develop a multiplayer event that where the group as a whole weren't dependent on the others in the group.
More importantly people want to be part of a story and they want to take their character through to the end of the story. In the movies and in books sometimes the hero dies. But the viewer/reader doesn't have time and money invested in the story. As long as an MMO plans expansions then the story continues and so should the character.
I find it interesting all the "alternatives" for permadeath suggested which basically eliminates permadeath from the equation and replaces with just harsher death penalties. Which I will agree death penalties do need to be hardened or altered to change the way we play to a more practiced, less whimsical, style.
Ultimately tho I think true permadeath, as well as other extreme death penalties, is juts bad business.
"That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange aeons even death may die."
Or...if the game is designed well enough that there is no need for artificial raids to keep players interested in the game.
All it needs is some creative thinking outside the box.
I think there are enough players now who have gone through the "wow-era" and need and can handle a tougher challenge in a different kind of mmo.
Maybe some company is someday willing to take the risk and make a AAA-grade product with perma death.
Not sure what you mean about "artificial" raids. Taking out the group raids and dungeons pretty much takes out the "multiplayer" in MMOs. All you're left with is basically playing a single player game with chat functions to talk to other players.
The whole concept or MMOs is ultimately the group element. I don't think it is possible to develop a multiplayer event that where the group as a whole weren't dependent on the others in the group.
More importantly people want to be part of a story and they want to take their character through to the end of the story. In the movies and in books sometimes the hero dies. But the viewer/reader doesn't have time and money invested in the story. As long as an MMO plans expansions then the story continues and so should the character.
I find it interesting all the "alternatives" for permadeath suggested which basically eliminates permadeath from the equation and replaces with just harsher death penalties. Which I will agree death penalties do need to be hardened or altered to change the way we play to a more practiced, less whimsical, style.
Ultimately tho I think true permadeath, as well as other extreme death penalties, is juts bad business.
I'm not sure what you think "alternative" means... of course if someone is suggesting an alternative to something... it's not that thing.. it's in fact different. It's either your logic or English comprehension that is scaring me.
I'm not sure what you think "alternative" means... of course if someone is suggesting an alternative to something... it's not that thing.. it's in fact different. It's either your logic or English comprehension that is scaring me.
A new definition of "Irony": Someone who is scared by an internet poster's misuse of quotation marks.
There are a handful of permadeath guilds in DDO, I've played some of it and enjoy it. I used to be driven crazy by spiraling corpse runs in Everquest, but there definitely is an appeal to games with more challenge. In MMO's, harsher death penalties, especially perma-death, can be one tool to add to the challenge level. It's important not to make it the only tool, however.
It creates risk, it creates excitement, something to lose!
Though it sucks..to a degree, it also is fun :P...but that's just me!
So you're willing to level a character for months to level cap (should you make it that far) only to lose that character becaus in the middle of a boss fight the tank decides he's had enough, logs out, and lets the whole party wipe?
There are just way too many scenarios that can give a character an undeserving permadeath that it makes the concept of permadeath pretty much pointless. If you want to have permadeath in a game then you'll have to have safeguards protecting players from unfair permadeath.
As for permadeath being one of a number of tools to handle death I'd rather have developers work on making a better game experience (perfecting other things like visuals, quests, classes, etc) than coming up with 3 different ways to handle death. Content in ANY game could always use improvement, why waste time on something a handful people will like?
"That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange aeons even death may die."
i dont support perma death, but if the game is free to play it is not too bad... I am sure I wouldnt pay a subscription for a perma death mmo to get my toon dissapear forever if i die (waste of time and basically money)...
in my opinion permadeath is as good as having an instant level cap server in an mmo
EDIT: even single/coop console games dont give perma death anymore... i remember good old castlevania and contra on nes, you had a couple of lives, once they're gone, bam! game over... to start all over. That's no more.... so why would i want taht in mmos?
The bottom line, like I said in an earlier post, is that permadeath would not work within the context of your current day cookie cutter MMO format. You would have to design a game around the idea of perma death. People keep talking about it like the intention is to shove it into WoW or SWTOR, but of course that won't work. The game would have to be about the stories and the adventures rather than grinding for months. I also think you have to detach yourself from the idea of a normal MMO. I would of course play a MMO with permadeath as long as the game is structured for it, and that I know it is perma death before getting into it. The idea of knowing my character's life is temporary and fragile will put me into a different mindset and make me play accordingly.
The other hard part is that people are so fixed on the current cookie cutter model of a MMO that they have a hard time seeing anything different. Basically the idea that if it isn't WoW, it's crap. MMO's are evolving in a lot of ways, and I would love to see one venture into the realm of permadeath. It is not without it's risks to the company trying it, and it would not be for every MMO player, but just like any other great success, it's hard to see it work well until someone makes it do so. I can't help but laugh at the people that are so closed minded to the idea as it makes me think it mostly stems from them not wanting their precious standard MMO bubbble to burst. The fact that MMO's are primarily about grinding life away to reach a level cap that hundreds if not more have already achieved before you is kind of sad. It's why I currently am not playing a MMO. I need a point to playing past grind.
It creates risk, it creates excitement, something to lose!
Though it sucks..to a degree, it also is fun :P...but that's just me!
So you're willing to level a character for months to level cap (should you make it that far) only to lose that character becaus in the middle of a boss fight the tank decides he's had enough, logs out, and lets the whole party wipe?
There are just way too many scenarios that can give a character an undeserving permadeath that it makes the concept of permadeath pretty much pointless. If you want to have permadeath in a game then you'll have to have safeguards protecting players from unfair permadeath.
As for permadeath being one of a number of tools to handle death I'd rather have developers work on making a better game experience (perfecting other things like visuals, quests, classes, etc) than coming up with 3 different ways to handle death. Content in ANY game could always use improvement, why waste time on something a handful people will like?
You are still talking about permadeath in the idea of an MMO being about a grind and and having to just primarily fight your way to get to some arbitrary level set by the devs as the cap for you to feel like you've achieved something. The idea of a permadeath game needs to be thought of outside of the conventional MMO idea. No, it won't work in WoW, but thinkg about if you designed an entire game with that idea in mind.
To your last point, I am a game developer. I know that there can always be improvements made to a game as it exists, but does that mean we should not try to innovate new ideas? By my understanding we should just keep making the same games over and over and over and not try anything new but just try and keep polishing the features as they exist?
It creates risk, it creates excitement, something to lose!
Though it sucks..to a degree, it also is fun :P...but that's just me!
So you're willing to level a character for months to level cap (should you make it that far) only to lose that character becaus in the middle of a boss fight the tank decides he's had enough, logs out, and lets the whole party wipe?
There are just way too many scenarios that can give a character an undeserving permadeath that it makes the concept of permadeath pretty much pointless. If you want to have permadeath in a game then you'll have to have safeguards protecting players from unfair permadeath.
As for permadeath being one of a number of tools to handle death I'd rather have developers work on making a better game experience (perfecting other things like visuals, quests, classes, etc) than coming up with 3 different ways to handle death. Content in ANY game could always use improvement, why waste time on something a handful people will like?
You are still talking about permadeath in the idea of an MMO being about a grind and and having to just primarily fight your way to get to some arbitrary level set by the devs as the cap for you to feel like you've achieved something. The idea of a permadeath game needs to be thought of outside of the conventional MMO idea. No, it won't work in WoW, but thinkg about if you designed an entire game with that idea in mind.
To your last point, I am a game developer. I know that there can always be improvements made to a game as it exists, but does that mean we should not try to innovate new ideas? By my understanding we should just keep making the same games over and over and over and not try anything new but just try and keep polishing the features as they exist?
I agree that if a whole mmorpg is based and build in such a way around perma death chance for characters playing it could work. Do you have any ideas around that point? I mean specifically some things about that?
I poped in this thread the idea of a soul bar for example where it raises every time u do some hard stuff( not simple plain daily quests) and it decreases every time u die and when it goes down to zero character caput.
That could be maybe one way to handle deaths due to dc and not get perma dea dinstead of it while in pvp or fighting pve and die cause of dc.
You as a developer, have any ideas how to solve this matter? Cause from what i understand its one of the main concerns of many players in order to try such mmorpg's.
Comments
I have already come up with a brilliant solution to this debate, but details are going to cost someone big bucks.
Back in the day I was a newbie raider on my ranger and started a newbie PoF break in raid with the people who were not afraid to die and we'd stick at it till we broke in. (meaning it was safe at the entrance). I actually did about 5 or 6 really successful huge raids.... after that I kinda got tired of it.
I don't define 'guts' as playing a video game. It's actually a bit sad that you do.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
No kidding. No rational person fears perma-death in a video game. There isn't a 'guts' factor. People might believe they are video game tough guys with tons of guts, but that is where gaming starts to get people into weird psychological issues. Like dnd players who believe they actually are an elf. It's kind of the same thing.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Actually they do run around naked. We've seen it from darkfall back to UO. You don't use your best gear. If you need to go from city to city, you strip down and make the naked run and then hit the bank when you get there.
It does make people think about when they want combat, so much so that it creates gank packs that can't do anything outside of their pack of dogs. (they would say wolves, clan, or gang, little difference other than semantics) So you are constantly tied to the lowest common denominator of time online. As folks get bored or tire of dying the pack dwindles and the ones that still want to play can't manage a pack size that can compete so they leave. then the other packs have fewer to fight so they dwindle and fall prey and quit as well, eventually the server is empty.
And the next paragraph is why amature game designers always mention things like perma-death. You immediately assume the role of winner. "heightened sense of achievement from coming out alive" but in the eyes of the designer, the truth is the minority win and even smaller minority win often, making everyone a loser and nobody plays a game to constantly lose. Your inexperience in the game design discipline makes you think that perma death is even close to a zero sum game, but over time it is anything but. Because winning doesn't return the same amount of reward that that the dying penalty imposes on the loser. Eventually everyone is dragged down and the game hemorrhages players and ends up empty.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
Ive been playing Realm of the Mad God lately... Omg the high from perma death is so great its hard to play other games now.
And Minecraft... I find some diamond and I my body tingles and I check my world map to make sure no other players are nearby and I try to hide the diamond somewhere safe asap. But minecraft varies a lot from server to server.
Play as your fav retro characters: cnd-online.net. My site: www.lysle.net. Blog: creatingaworld.blogspot.com.
I'm playing Haven & Hearth atm and their implementation of perma death includes an option to pass dead char's possessions and some of his/her experience to your next character, sorta like a heritage. The game is crafting and pvp oriented and the learning curve is very steep.
It's a very harsh world (and the game is an indie production and in alpha stage, so gfx and UI are rough), but I do like the challenge and deep crafting. Check it out if you're interested in the concept of perma death in mmos.
Sounds somewhat interesting, but people become too attached to their characters. I could see this working pretty well for a game with a ghost theme. Maybe allowing players to possess the bodies of people and/or creatures. Maybe alow those bodies to grow with you, while both the body and the soul gain abilities. Soul abilities are kept if the body dies, but the body's abilities are lost.
Death would force the player to find a new body to possess.
I'm designing my own game and have not yet gotten to death but I know it's going to be a mechanic of the game that is no less important than all the rest. I for one viewed this article because most of my game systems are redefining MMOs on some level and although redefinition is not my requirement for everything inclusive, I will be taking a long look at death just as much as anything else. It definitely won't be permadeath, but there have got to be enough consequences to train players to be a bit more cautious in their approaches.. if not, game immersion suffers.
To include permadeath into an MMO would require the elimination of anything remotely difficult. Most importantly there would be no raids...ever. Raids are specifically designed to be difficult challenges that require more than just stats. They include planning, timing, focus, and luck. They are puzzles to solved by a group as a whole and even when the right solution to the fight is learned it's a challenge to execute that solution.
No one in their right mind would ever risk their characters life where someone else in the group might miss their interrupt/taunt/dispell/heal for whatever reason (d/c, sneezed, or IM pop up minimized their game), and cause a wipe. Even the best gamblers in the universe would never bet on those odds.
I also find myself thinking that leveleling would be a system of trial and error with a steep learning curve. It would go something liek this.
1) Make a new character. Get to level 3 die.
2) Make second character. Get to level 6 and die.
3) Make third character. Get to level 9 and die.
4) Etc. etc.
There is just way too much at stake with permadeath to where the average player will simply not go for it. And I doubt enough elitist/hardcore players exist to support an MMO with permadeath. And while it may be somewhat humorous, I really don't want to travel the realm seeing names like Bastiltwo, Haxxoethree, or the like.
People complain that WoW is so easy. Imaging how much easire it would have to be if permadeath were worked into the game?
"That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange aeons even death may die."
Or...if the game is designed well enough that there is no need for artificial raids to keep players interested in the game.
All it needs is some creative thinking outside the box.
I think there are enough players now who have gone through the "wow-era" and need and can handle a tougher challenge in a different kind of mmo.
Maybe some company is someday willing to take the risk and make a AAA-grade product with perma death.
1. I completely agree with you. I dont know if something could be done to counter that possibility. its ahuge prob for perma death system.
2.here i disagree. Yes many players will be afraid to die and put out their tails in danger tasks ,hard raids etc,enemy terittories etc etc There will be also though some players that will not.like RL u ll sort out the brave ones from the cowards.life is a risk heh.
3.Its a real sorrow if and when it happens. if u can handle it though or not its up to the game design package and mechanics.How much time for example it will take to make another equal in power character and will it be fun to lvl up again? Replaybility? Random elemnts?
For perma death i have thought a formula . A Soul bar similar to life bar where it increases every time u do a hard chain quest,achieve glorious various deeps in pvp or pve ,finishing dungeons etc and it decreases every time u die. So if power goes down from the computer or internet loss happens u wont loose your toon for dying 1time. that would add some strategy element to your character useage too when soul bar goes down near zero u can be more carefull not taking great risks etc etc but it just an idea i had not sure if it could work.
You're talking the same sort of micro-niche as FFA Full Loot PVP. Of interest to an extremely narrow subset of players, a self-limited game that's essentially guaranteed to never be a hit. Not many companies are willing to voluntarily castrate their income before their game even launches.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Not sure what you mean about "artificial" raids. Taking out the group raids and dungeons pretty much takes out the "multiplayer" in MMOs. All you're left with is basically playing a single player game with chat functions to talk to other players.
The whole concept or MMOs is ultimately the group element. I don't think it is possible to develop a multiplayer event that where the group as a whole weren't dependent on the others in the group.
More importantly people want to be part of a story and they want to take their character through to the end of the story. In the movies and in books sometimes the hero dies. But the viewer/reader doesn't have time and money invested in the story. As long as an MMO plans expansions then the story continues and so should the character.
I find it interesting all the "alternatives" for permadeath suggested which basically eliminates permadeath from the equation and replaces with just harsher death penalties. Which I will agree death penalties do need to be hardened or altered to change the way we play to a more practiced, less whimsical, style.
Ultimately tho I think true permadeath, as well as other extreme death penalties, is juts bad business.
"That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange aeons even death may die."
I'm not sure what you think "alternative" means... of course if someone is suggesting an alternative to something... it's not that thing.. it's in fact different. It's either your logic or English comprehension that is scaring me.
A new definition of "Irony": Someone who is scared by an internet poster's misuse of quotation marks.
There are a handful of permadeath guilds in DDO, I've played some of it and enjoy it. I used to be driven crazy by spiraling corpse runs in Everquest, but there definitely is an appeal to games with more challenge. In MMO's, harsher death penalties, especially perma-death, can be one tool to add to the challenge level. It's important not to make it the only tool, however.
The fear is what makes me enjoy it.
It creates risk, it creates excitement, something to lose!
Though it sucks..to a degree, it also is fun :P...but that's just me!
I am entitled to my opinions, misspellings, and grammatical errors.
So you're willing to level a character for months to level cap (should you make it that far) only to lose that character becaus in the middle of a boss fight the tank decides he's had enough, logs out, and lets the whole party wipe?
There are just way too many scenarios that can give a character an undeserving permadeath that it makes the concept of permadeath pretty much pointless. If you want to have permadeath in a game then you'll have to have safeguards protecting players from unfair permadeath.
As for permadeath being one of a number of tools to handle death I'd rather have developers work on making a better game experience (perfecting other things like visuals, quests, classes, etc) than coming up with 3 different ways to handle death. Content in ANY game could always use improvement, why waste time on something a handful people will like?
"That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange aeons even death may die."
i dont support perma death, but if the game is free to play it is not too bad... I am sure I wouldnt pay a subscription for a perma death mmo to get my toon dissapear forever if i die (waste of time and basically money)...
in my opinion permadeath is as good as having an instant level cap server in an mmo
EDIT: even single/coop console games dont give perma death anymore... i remember good old castlevania and contra on nes, you had a couple of lives, once they're gone, bam! game over... to start all over. That's no more.... so why would i want taht in mmos?
The bottom line, like I said in an earlier post, is that permadeath would not work within the context of your current day cookie cutter MMO format. You would have to design a game around the idea of perma death. People keep talking about it like the intention is to shove it into WoW or SWTOR, but of course that won't work. The game would have to be about the stories and the adventures rather than grinding for months. I also think you have to detach yourself from the idea of a normal MMO. I would of course play a MMO with permadeath as long as the game is structured for it, and that I know it is perma death before getting into it. The idea of knowing my character's life is temporary and fragile will put me into a different mindset and make me play accordingly.
The other hard part is that people are so fixed on the current cookie cutter model of a MMO that they have a hard time seeing anything different. Basically the idea that if it isn't WoW, it's crap. MMO's are evolving in a lot of ways, and I would love to see one venture into the realm of permadeath. It is not without it's risks to the company trying it, and it would not be for every MMO player, but just like any other great success, it's hard to see it work well until someone makes it do so. I can't help but laugh at the people that are so closed minded to the idea as it makes me think it mostly stems from them not wanting their precious standard MMO bubbble to burst. The fact that MMO's are primarily about grinding life away to reach a level cap that hundreds if not more have already achieved before you is kind of sad. It's why I currently am not playing a MMO. I need a point to playing past grind.
You are still talking about permadeath in the idea of an MMO being about a grind and and having to just primarily fight your way to get to some arbitrary level set by the devs as the cap for you to feel like you've achieved something. The idea of a permadeath game needs to be thought of outside of the conventional MMO idea. No, it won't work in WoW, but thinkg about if you designed an entire game with that idea in mind.
To your last point, I am a game developer. I know that there can always be improvements made to a game as it exists, but does that mean we should not try to innovate new ideas? By my understanding we should just keep making the same games over and over and over and not try anything new but just try and keep polishing the features as they exist?
dont want permadeath in MMO =.=
how about if you got DC? you didnt know if youre gonna survive in a lot of monster around you?(free hits)
maybe theres a limited life in every charcter, i would like it but permadeath?
NOWAY
I agree that if a whole mmorpg is based and build in such a way around perma death chance for characters playing it could work. Do you have any ideas around that point? I mean specifically some things about that?
I poped in this thread the idea of a soul bar for example where it raises every time u do some hard stuff( not simple plain daily quests) and it decreases every time u die and when it goes down to zero character caput.
That could be maybe one way to handle deaths due to dc and not get perma dea dinstead of it while in pvp or fighting pve and die cause of dc.
You as a developer, have any ideas how to solve this matter? Cause from what i understand its one of the main concerns of many players in order to try such mmorpg's.