I have to admit I am a WoW player and I will keep being one until something different comes out.
That doesn't make a bit of sense. There are a lot of games that are very different from WoW that are already out. Some of them are pretty good, even.
NAME ONE, please!
-Rift
-SWTOR
-Aion
ALL exactly like WoW with the same "easy mode" accesibility. You want to find out the perfect formulai for TRULY bringing EQ back? Find an EQ, UO, SWG, DAOC old-schooler who HATES WoW, and you're golden. Simply put, if you didn't understand what he was talking about Quizzical it wasn't for you to digest. As for the rest of us, I can safely say at least FOR ME he was 183% spot on!
Yea I cant find a game that's not a WoW clone amongst these wow clones that I play either.
Wait, what?
Please, I'm still looking for someone to name a game not trying hardcore to copy WoW.
Literally, the ONLY one i could find that was released recently was Fallen Earth, but even that one went HIGHLY linear in design.
have you looked much?
Released:
Global Agenda. TF2 With Robots
World of tanks No PvE
Hellgate Not a MMO
Darkfall Bugs, missing features, lack of polish
Dragons nest Not a MMO
Perpetuum
Mortal Online Low budget, bugfest, lack of polish
Upcoming:
Planetside 2
Firefall
Archage
Dust 514
theres plenty more too. but if you only look for holy trinity quest based MMO's based around ability combat then everything is going to look like a WoW clone, you probably think GW2 is a wow clone.
I think he's is looking for something different, but with WoW's level of content and polish.
I'm not sure that he was arguing that. I'd certainly hope that someone wouldn't try to claim that WoW was a theme park game on PVE servers and a sandbox game on PVP servers.
A Tale in the Desert might be the purest sandbox game on the market, and doesn't even have combat. Though you might still argue that crafting can be pvp, too.
I'd hope nobody would claim that open PvP alone determines whether an MMO is a themepark or sandbox, as well, but it seemed to me like he was arguing that an MMO can't be a sandbox without it. He was rebutting the claim that EverQuest was a sandbox MMO, and his most repeated reason for that is that it didn't have open PvP. Of course, after umpteen expansions have changed EQ over the years, perhaps it could be viewed as a themepark MMO depending on when someone had played it. But having played EQ only from launch through the first expansion, I can attest to the fact that the game itself gave very little direction to the player.
If that doesn't happen, Everquest Next will suffer the same fate of Rift and probably SWTOR..............high sales on release but low subscription base after 3-6 months.
You know, I am not even a fan of SWTOR, but you dont know whats going to happen. SWTOR had a solid release and there are a ton of people having a great time. How about you leave it at that, all of you, leave it at that for now, instead of wishing doom and gloom on the game.
I have to admit I am a WoW player and I will keep being one until something different comes out.
That doesn't make a bit of sense. There are a lot of games that are very different from WoW that are already out. Some of them are pretty good, even.
NAME ONE, please!
-Rift
-SWTOR
-Aion
ALL exactly like WoW with the same "easy mode" accesibility. You want to find out the perfect formulai for TRULY bringing EQ back? Find an EQ, UO, SWG, DAOC old-schooler who HATES WoW, and you're golden. Simply put, if you didn't understand what he was talking about Quizzical it wasn't for you to digest. As for the rest of us, I can safely say at least FOR ME he was 183% spot on!
Yea I cant find a game that's not a WoW clone amongst these wow clones that I play either.
Wait, what?
Please, I'm still looking for someone to name a game not trying hardcore to copy WoW.
Literally, the ONLY one i could find that was released recently was Fallen Earth, but even that one went HIGHLY linear in design.
have you looked much?
Released:
Global Agenda.
World of tanks
Hellgate
Darkfall
Dragons nest
Perpetuum
Mortal Online
Upcoming:
Planetside 2
Firefall
Archage
Dust 514
theres plenty more too. but if you only look for holy trinity quest based MMO's based around ability combat then everything is going to look like a WoW clone, you probably think GW2 is a wow clone.
most of those games don't have much financial backing lets be honest.
Got your answer and copped out with another argument...
Please, I'm still looking for someone to name a game not trying hardcore to copy WoW.
Literally, the ONLY one i could find that was released recently was Fallen Earth, but even that one went HIGHLY linear in design.
have you looked much?
Released:
Global Agenda.
World of tanks
Hellgate
Darkfall
Dragons nest
Perpetuum
Mortal Online
Upcoming:
Planetside 2
Firefall
Archage
Dust 514
theres plenty more too. but if you only look for holy trinity quest based MMO's based around ability combat then everything is going to look like a WoW clone, you probably think GW2 is a wow clone.
most of those games don't have much financial backing lets be honest.
Got your answer and copped out with another argument...
LOL...Yea Planetside 2 has a minimal finacial backing with SOE....fail troll on a majorscale buddy, "lets be honest".
have you looked much? Released: Global Agenda. World of tanks Hellgate Darkfall Dragons nest Perpetuum Mortal Online Upcoming: Planetside 2 Firefall Archage Dust 514 theres plenty more too. but if you only look for holy trinity quest based MMO's based around ability combat then everything is going to look like a WoW clone, you probably think GW2 is a wow clone.
most of those games don't have much financial backing lets be honest.
Got your answer and copped out with another argument...
Yea :P
Most of those released games don't have much financial backing...most of them are still good games though. As for the upcoming ones, they have have a decent backing behind them and are nowhere near the mould of regular MMORPG's....except for archeage with it class similarities.
WoW was called an EQ Clone until it got bigger than EQ (which didn't take long).
If you make a game about levels and gear grind, whether there's a feeling of grind or not, there will always be pressure by masses of players to make things "easier".
Why, you say? I'll explain........
The game has levels and gear and to make it exciting the game makes these levels noticably more powerfull. So the gaps in power and capability start to show very quickly, and the game's content needs to scale to the levels of the players using it. This can be done by zoning the content and the world into level groupings, or it can be done by using instancing and scaling the content to those using any particular instance.
Once content is scaled to the players, by either means, the game has broken off from the "World" concept and become a game of playing "Modules". And once that happens, the masses will be calling for more and more removal of that "World" part so they can get to that "Module" part quicker and easier. Because that's what their game play is about.
What's happened to this industry is one of those "vicious cycles" things. It started with "worldly" (UO), then went to "Module" (with EQ), which we call "Themepark". Once that happened, the trend to "easy" was established, written in the sands of time, fated, unchangable, and the epitaph has been written only to await publication.
We await the burning embers of Themepark to turn to ash, so that a new age of Sandbox can arise from those ashes.
Wow did do a lot of things that improved on the first gen mmorpgs. It made them less fustrating and after time, started to make the game a "right to the good stuff" type of game. Problem is that every game after it is made out of the same mold.
After so many years of the same old stuff, you can tell a lot of gamers that participated in the first round of mmorpgs, and even some who joined with wow (however their extectations seems to be diffrent) are looking for something diffrent.
This is why you see the attempt by indy markets to tap into this, while mostly all failing misrably to deliver the basics.
My guess is the mmorpg revolution, whatever it may look like, wont come from a huge developer, like SOE, they will not risk losing out on the 1mil box sales making a cookie cutter. The small upstarts cant deliver solid basics...im guessing it will come from some indipendent but known game developer making a first entry into the mmorpg scene to really get both the basics and the diffrent right.
EQ Next is going to be the next stepping stone on the linear development path that was cut out of wow, might offer new stuff but will end up just another one. SOE cares about money. If you want unique diffrent and challanging your going to have to get it from a devloper with pure passion in making the game, yet they will need a budget and know how to deliver playable basics, something every indy misses on (aside from darkfall, for all its faults that game has some decent combat and mechanics)
so EQ next seems to be the next installment on the themepark list. Rift then SWTOR then GW2 and then EQ Next...thats my prediction untill we hear some solid actual info on the game. SOE doesnt make great sandboxes it only knows how to kill them.
From what I have heard is that EQ Next is pretty much stalled out in development so it won't be out for many years down the road.
Even when it does come out don't get your hopes up. Eq Next is going to be more WoW than World of Warcraft. Your entire experience will be on rails the whole time. You go form A to B to C to D and you will not be allowed to leave the pre determined quest and progression track. Also it will be Free 2 Play from the get go.
WoW when it came out was great and I played everquest back in the day but just thought WoW was the better game. It made a better world which was seamless and the instances from level 20 were amazing, unlike anything you'd see in any other MMO. It hit the spot with the combat, best combat of any MMO ever IMO and the world PVP was fun but just needed something to fight over. Basically what blizzard made was a better version of Everquest and they introduced things like quest leveling instead of grinding that you saw in every MMO before it. The other thing it did was let you progress on your own but still had a lot of group content, Everquest 2 came out with mostly gorup quests and you couldn't progress on your own after level 10 and the quests dried out a lot of the time. So I found myself with Everquest 2 soloing the small amount of soloable mobs while my friends were offline. The problem I have with WoW is what the industry has done since it. All they've tried to do is copy WoW and make an easier version in an effort to make it more accessible and WoW ahs done the same since. What Blizzard have made is a fan faire MMO to Warcraft and have lost the actual game in all that why they try to cater to everyone. I'm just sick of how MMOs have gone in that boring linear easy direction and SWTOR is the latest one to do it and I'm just sick of it. WoW was great and perfected the MMO, however MMOs since have just been shit and WoW has been ruined dumbing it down more and more.
I just hope SOE make a seamless EQ game (never been a seamless one before) and they do something new, if they just try to recreate EQ or WoW then I will be bored already. I would like them to make a sandbox Everquest with lots of content, we've never seen a sandbox game with content so that would be kool. One that feels like an actual online world I can do what I want in, instead of a linear path till I get to the end game and quit because there is nothing to do.
Likely not going to be a sandbox. Notice how the poster in the op calls Everquest 1 a sandbox MMO. Again they must be using a different meaning of a sandbox.
back then, people may not have known what they were doing when it came down to player levels, but players now days, know that when the game has player levels, it's best to just follow the level path from start to finish. The mindset has changed, not the games.
these so called WoW clones, are not copying WoW. Because that would imply that WoW was original. It's seem funny how Everquest next developers want to make the game different from the model that they established, while at the same time making it similar to the model they created. I see a big contridiction here.
How is it possible that Everquest 2, which came out before WoW, be a WoW clone? This proves my point. What we so call, the WoW Clone Model, was not created by Blizzard, but by SoE Everquest.
WoW when it came out was great and I played everquest back in the day but just thought WoW was the better game. It made a better world which was seamless and the instances from level 20 were amazing, unlike anything you'd see in any other MMO. It hit the spot with the combat, best combat of any MMO ever IMO and the world PVP was fun but just needed something to fight over. Basically what blizzard made was a better version of Everquest and they introduced things like quest leveling instead of grinding that you saw in every MMO before it. The other thing it did was let you progress on your own but still had a lot of group content, Everquest 2 came out with mostly gorup quests and you couldn't progress on your own after level 10 and the quests dried out a lot of the time. So I found myself with Everquest 2 soloing the small amount of soloable mobs while my friends were offline.
The problem I have with WoW is what the industry has done since it. All they've tried to do is copy WoW and make an easier version in an effort to make it more accessible and WoW ahs done the same since. What Blizzard have made is a fan faire MMO to Warcraft and have lost the actual game in all that why they try to cater to everyone. I'm just sick of how MMOs have gone in that boring linear easy direction and SWTOR is the latest one to do it and I'm just sick of it. WoW was great and perfected the MMO, however MMOs since have just been shit and WoW has been ruined dumbing it down more and more.
I just hope SOE make a seamless EQ game (never been a seamless one before) and they do something new, if they just try to recreate EQ or WoW then I will be bored already. I would like them to make a sandbox Everquest with lots of content, we've never seen a sandbox game with content so that would be kool. One that feels like an actual online world I can do what I want in, instead of a linear path till I get to the end game and quit because there is nothing to do.
Likely not going to be a sandbox. Notice how the poster in the op calls Everquest 1 a sandbox MMO. Again they must be using a different meaning of a sandbox.
back then, people may not have known what they were doing when it came down to player levels, but players now days, know that when the game has player levels, it's best to just follow the level path from start to finish. The mindset has changed, not the games.
these so called WoW clones, are not copying WoW. Because that would imply that WoW was original. It's seem funny how Everquest next developers want to make the game different from the model that they established, while at the same time making it similar to the model they created. I see a big contridiction here.
How is it possible that Everquest 2, which came out before WoW, be a WoW clone? This proves my point. What we so call, the WoW Clone Model, was not created by Blizzard, but by SoE Everquest.
What WoW did was so different to Everquest that I consider it pretty innovative and original. When these developers look at MMOs and what to copy it is pretty obvious that they look at WoW and want to do that but with their own gimmick.
Also I said EQ2 has been turned into WoW now with patches after it got nearly killed off by it. You can see that quite clearly straight away with how the UI is laid out now, how the map gives indications to where everything is, the icons over quest givers heads etc.
EQNext is going to be closer to EQ2 than EQ1, there's isn't the will in a major developer to create a title with the oldschool mechanics the original had, the market for such a game isn't large enough to justify the expense.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
EQNext is going to be closer to EQ2 than EQ1, there's isn't the will in a major developer to create a title with the oldschool mechanics the original had, the market for such a game isn't large enough to justify the expense.
Well it did look like it took a graphics cut. Maybe it won't be as expensive to make. Which means it can afford to take a risk just as much as the successful indies do like Darkfall has.
WoW when it came out was great and I played everquest back in the day but just thought WoW was the better game. It made a better world which was seamless and the instances from level 20 were amazing, unlike anything you'd see in any other MMO. It hit the spot with the combat, best combat of any MMO ever IMO and the world PVP was fun but just needed something to fight over. Basically what blizzard made was a better version of Everquest and they introduced things like quest leveling instead of grinding that you saw in every MMO before it. The other thing it did was let you progress on your own but still had a lot of group content, Everquest 2 came out with mostly gorup quests and you couldn't progress on your own after level 10 and the quests dried out a lot of the time. So I found myself with Everquest 2 soloing the small amount of soloable mobs while my friends were offline. The problem I have with WoW is what the industry has done since it. All they've tried to do is copy WoW and make an easier version in an effort to make it more accessible and WoW ahs done the same since. What Blizzard have made is a fan faire MMO to Warcraft and have lost the actual game in all that why they try to cater to everyone. I'm just sick of how MMOs have gone in that boring linear easy direction and SWTOR is the latest one to do it and I'm just sick of it. WoW was great and perfected the MMO, however MMOs since have just been shit and WoW has been ruined dumbing it down more and more. I just hope SOE make a seamless EQ game (never been a seamless one before) and they do something new, if they just try to recreate EQ or WoW then I will be bored already. I would like them to make a sandbox Everquest with lots of content, we've never seen a sandbox game with content so that would be kool. One that feels like an actual online world I can do what I want in, instead of a linear path till I get to the end game and quit because there is nothing to do.
Likely not going to be a sandbox. Notice how the poster in the op calls Everquest 1 a sandbox MMO. Again they must be using a different meaning of a sandbox.
back then, people may not have known what they were doing when it came down to player levels, but players now days, know that when the game has player levels, it's best to just follow the level path from start to finish. The mindset has changed, not the games.
these so called WoW clones, are not copying WoW. Because that would imply that WoW was original. It's seem funny how Everquest next developers want to make the game different from the model that they established, while at the same time making it similar to the model they created. I see a big contridiction here.
How is it possible that Everquest 2, which came out before WoW, be a WoW clone? This proves my point. What we so call, the WoW Clone Model, was not created by Blizzard, but by SoE Everquest.
What WoW did was so different to Everquest that I consider it pretty innovative and original. When these developers looka t MMOs and what to copy it is pretty obvious that they look at WoW and want to do that but with their own gimmick.
Also I said EQ2 has been turned into WoW now with patches after it got nearly killed off by it. You can see that quite clearly straight away with how the UI is laid out now, how the map gives indications to where everything is, the icons over quest givers heads etc.
Ok,,, I have a last question for you in this thread, before I am out.
do you believe WoW was original?(note: I said Original, not innovating)
EQNext is going to be closer to EQ2 than EQ1, there's isn't the will in a major developer to create a title with the oldschool mechanics the original had, the market for such a game isn't large enough to justify the expense.
Well it did look like it took a graphics cut. Maybe it won't be as expensive to make. Which means it can afford to take a risk just as much as the successful indies do like Darkfall has.
Heh, I wouldn't call Darkfall a successful Indie, probably 2nd worst example right after the folks at SV.
But perhaps they can be as successful as CCP, but is SOE willing to settle for that?
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
EQNext is going to be closer to EQ2 than EQ1, there's isn't the will in a major developer to create a title with the oldschool mechanics the original had, the market for such a game isn't large enough to justify the expense.
Well it did look like it took a graphics cut. Maybe it won't be as expensive to make. Which means it can afford to take a risk just as much as the successful indies do like Darkfall has.
Heh, I wouldn't call Darkfall a successful Indie, probably 2nd worst example right after the folks at SV.
But perhaps they can be as successful as CCP, but is SOE willing to settle for that?
Well by success I was referring to being able to maintain welth and complete it's debts from the money gained.
I think theres a possibility that EQ Next is a graphics overhaul for EQ1. First off, they already told us that they Planetside Next was at first planned to be a graphics overhaul for the game, and then they changed their minds. So it may be possible that a similar situation is happening with EQ Next. Secondly, they have little reason to release another MMORPG that competes with EQ1, EQ2, and VG... Yet re-releasing EQ1 would attract a lot of attention and may save some $$ as far as database and code management goes because some of the tools and code could be reused, although most would not be.
I hope they do rerelease EQ1. But I know that if they do a lot of people will be disappointed because they are going to make some changes to it to appeal to the new MMO market... There is no denying that.
WoW when it came out was great and I played everquest back in the day but just thought WoW was the better game. It made a better world which was seamless and the instances from level 20 were amazing, unlike anything you'd see in any other MMO. It hit the spot with the combat, best combat of any MMO ever IMO and the world PVP was fun but just needed something to fight over. Basically what blizzard made was a better version of Everquest and they introduced things like quest leveling instead of grinding that you saw in every MMO before it. The other thing it did was let you progress on your own but still had a lot of group content, Everquest 2 came out with mostly gorup quests and you couldn't progress on your own after level 10 and the quests dried out a lot of the time. So I found myself with Everquest 2 soloing the small amount of soloable mobs while my friends were offline.
The problem I have with WoW is what the industry has done since it. All they've tried to do is copy WoW and make an easier version in an effort to make it more accessible and WoW ahs done the same since. What Blizzard have made is a fan faire MMO to Warcraft and have lost the actual game in all that why they try to cater to everyone. I'm just sick of how MMOs have gone in that boring linear easy direction and SWTOR is the latest one to do it and I'm just sick of it. WoW was great and perfected the MMO, however MMOs since have just been shit and WoW has been ruined dumbing it down more and more.
I just hope SOE make a seamless EQ game (never been a seamless one before) and they do something new, if they just try to recreate EQ or WoW then I will be bored already. I would like them to make a sandbox Everquest with lots of content, we've never seen a sandbox game with content so that would be kool. One that feels like an actual online world I can do what I want in, instead of a linear path till I get to the end game and quit because there is nothing to do.
Likely not going to be a sandbox. Notice how the poster in the op calls Everquest 1 a sandbox MMO. Again they must be using a different meaning of a sandbox.
back then, people may not have known what they were doing when it came down to player levels, but players now days, know that when the game has player levels, it's best to just follow the level path from start to finish. The mindset has changed, not the games.
these so called WoW clones, are not copying WoW. Because that would imply that WoW was original. It's seem funny how Everquest next developers want to make the game different from the model that they established, while at the same time making it similar to the model they created. I see a big contridiction here.
How is it possible that Everquest 2, which came out before WoW, be a WoW clone? This proves my point. What we so call, the WoW Clone Model, was not created by Blizzard, but by SoE Everquest.
What WoW did was so different to Everquest that I consider it pretty innovative and original. When these developers looka t MMOs and what to copy it is pretty obvious that they look at WoW and want to do that but with their own gimmick.
Also I said EQ2 has been turned into WoW now with patches after it got nearly killed off by it. You can see that quite clearly straight away with how the UI is laid out now, how the map gives indications to where everything is, the icons over quest givers heads etc.
Ok,,, I have a last question for you in this thread, before I am out.
do you believe WoW was original?(note: I said Original, not innovating)
I think from a gameplay standard it played vastly different from Everquest. The only reason why people go back to Everquest now, play it and say WoW copied it is because Everquest (talking about the first one) has made so many changes to make it more like WoW. The Everquest I played dropped you in a world without any help, it had a mess of a UI, horrible character movement and the combat was so different and much slower. There were no quests and crafting in Everquest was even worse than WoW as it was an afterthought they added in much later after they based a game around adventuring.
The original Everquest before WoW was such a different game to the point I think WoW was original. I mean you could say Portal wasn't original because it was based on other games, yet it done something so different.
When I played WoW back in 2004 it blew me away and the wait was over, we finally had a AAA developer make a polished and working MMO. Everything before that usually was of poor quality, very buggy, broken and dated in how it played. WoW made the combat fast paced and made an MMO that could be played competitively for money because of how great that combat was.
I think it was so original, though based on a previous design of Everquest, it took that and just done something so different. The problem people have with WoW now is the dumbed down casual player direction it has gone. Also how every MMO since has just taken WoW and just made a worse version and how previous MMOs have been changed to try and get tht audience like SWG and EQ2.
I have to admit I am a WoW player and I will keep being one until something different comes out
have you looked much?
Released:
Global Agenda.
World of tanks
Hellgate
Darkfall
Dragons nest
Perpetuum
Mortal Online
Upcoming:
Planetside 2
Firefall
Archage
Dust 514
theres plenty more too. but if you only look for holy trinity quest based MMO's based around ability combat then everything is going to look like a WoW clone, you probably think GW2 is a wow clone.
Look probably you don't get I play MMOs from 2000, I don't mean it in a patronizing way, but I do know the MMO industry pretty well, I played all of the MMOs you've listed above (except the upcoming obviously), and some of them are not even MMOs
In fact I still play Darkfall and sometimes even Perpetuum, when I am bored of WoW
Of those you listed none is an AAA to start with, which is my point.
There is no AAA MMO released in the last 7 years which is somehow different from the WoW concept.
Archeage which you mention, is exactly the kind of game I was waiting for, it is half Themepark and half Sandbox, and I was hoping that SoE would go that route with EQ Next, because I love the world of Norrath better.
I believe that the Themepark market is already saturated and people needs something different.........possibly not made by Indie developers.
Since SoE planned to make another EQ MMO, that's their chance to stop looking at what others do (Blizzard & Co) and try to be different, maybe looking back at their most succesful game which is EQ, and which I believe it is still their most profitable game theiy have in their stables (apparently they did something good there)
I always make this simple comparison so people can understand my point of view better.
In the single player RPG market there are 2 main different schools, the Bioware School (linear), and the Bethesda School (sandbox)
If you play Mass Effect or Dragon Age and then you play Morrowind or Skyrim you understand that there is a huge difference between the two styles, they are very different, but they both are RPG and both sell millions of copies.
(Skyrim has even been awarded the title of the best RPG ever made by many experts)
So there is room for different ways of making an RPG.
Well............. in the MMO market though, we have only the "Dragon Age" clones ( WoW ), but not even one "Skyrim" ( UO/EQ )
This is an anomaly that no developer tried to correct.
So when in the single player RPG market we have lots of different styles filling up the market and being successful, in the MMO market is stil the same old WoW copycat which is monopolising the market.
I just hope that Everquest Next could be the Skyrim of MMORPGs.........that's all I am saying.
Comments
I think he's is looking for something different, but with WoW's level of content and polish.
I'd hope nobody would claim that open PvP alone determines whether an MMO is a themepark or sandbox, as well, but it seemed to me like he was arguing that an MMO can't be a sandbox without it. He was rebutting the claim that EverQuest was a sandbox MMO, and his most repeated reason for that is that it didn't have open PvP. Of course, after umpteen expansions have changed EQ over the years, perhaps it could be viewed as a themepark MMO depending on when someone had played it. But having played EQ only from launch through the first expansion, I can attest to the fact that the game itself gave very little direction to the player.
1. Add to that list the 3-4 other MMORPGs which have released recently which are like WOW.
2. Now remove those 7 games from the entire list of every other game made in the last 5 years.
3. You now have a very long list of games which are very different from WOW.
It's kind of hilarious that when the conversation turns to games different from WOW you decided to list all the games similar to WOW.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
You know, I am not even a fan of SWTOR, but you dont know whats going to happen. SWTOR had a solid release and there are a ton of people having a great time. How about you leave it at that, all of you, leave it at that for now, instead of wishing doom and gloom on the game.
Got your answer and copped out with another argument...
LOL...Yea Planetside 2 has a minimal finacial backing with SOE....fail troll on a majorscale buddy, "lets be honest".
Yea :P
Most of those released games don't have much financial backing...most of them are still good games though. As for the upcoming ones, they have have a decent backing behind them and are nowhere near the mould of regular MMORPG's....except for archeage with it class similarities.
SKYeXile
TRF - GM - GW2, PS2, WAR, AION, Rift, WoW, WOT....etc...
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WoW was called an EQ Clone until it got bigger than EQ (which didn't take long).
If you make a game about levels and gear grind, whether there's a feeling of grind or not, there will always be pressure by masses of players to make things "easier".
Why, you say? I'll explain........
The game has levels and gear and to make it exciting the game makes these levels noticably more powerfull. So the gaps in power and capability start to show very quickly, and the game's content needs to scale to the levels of the players using it. This can be done by zoning the content and the world into level groupings, or it can be done by using instancing and scaling the content to those using any particular instance.
Once content is scaled to the players, by either means, the game has broken off from the "World" concept and become a game of playing "Modules". And once that happens, the masses will be calling for more and more removal of that "World" part so they can get to that "Module" part quicker and easier. Because that's what their game play is about.
What's happened to this industry is one of those "vicious cycles" things. It started with "worldly" (UO), then went to "Module" (with EQ), which we call "Themepark". Once that happened, the trend to "easy" was established, written in the sands of time, fated, unchangable, and the epitaph has been written only to await publication.
We await the burning embers of Themepark to turn to ash, so that a new age of Sandbox can arise from those ashes.
Once upon a time....
Wow did do a lot of things that improved on the first gen mmorpgs. It made them less fustrating and after time, started to make the game a "right to the good stuff" type of game. Problem is that every game after it is made out of the same mold.
After so many years of the same old stuff, you can tell a lot of gamers that participated in the first round of mmorpgs, and even some who joined with wow (however their extectations seems to be diffrent) are looking for something diffrent.
This is why you see the attempt by indy markets to tap into this, while mostly all failing misrably to deliver the basics.
My guess is the mmorpg revolution, whatever it may look like, wont come from a huge developer, like SOE, they will not risk losing out on the 1mil box sales making a cookie cutter. The small upstarts cant deliver solid basics...im guessing it will come from some indipendent but known game developer making a first entry into the mmorpg scene to really get both the basics and the diffrent right.
EQ Next is going to be the next stepping stone on the linear development path that was cut out of wow, might offer new stuff but will end up just another one. SOE cares about money. If you want unique diffrent and challanging your going to have to get it from a devloper with pure passion in making the game, yet they will need a budget and know how to deliver playable basics, something every indy misses on (aside from darkfall, for all its faults that game has some decent combat and mechanics)
so EQ next seems to be the next installment on the themepark list. Rift then SWTOR then GW2 and then EQ Next...thats my prediction untill we hear some solid actual info on the game. SOE doesnt make great sandboxes it only knows how to kill them.
From what I have heard is that EQ Next is pretty much stalled out in development so it won't be out for many years down the road.
Even when it does come out don't get your hopes up. Eq Next is going to be more WoW than World of Warcraft. Your entire experience will be on rails the whole time. You go form A to B to C to D and you will not be allowed to leave the pre determined quest and progression track. Also it will be Free 2 Play from the get go.
Likely not going to be a sandbox. Notice how the poster in the op calls Everquest 1 a sandbox MMO. Again they must be using a different meaning of a sandbox.back then, people may not have known what they were doing when it came down to player levels, but players now days, know that when the game has player levels, it's best to just follow the level path from start to finish. The mindset has changed, not the games.
these so called WoW clones, are not copying WoW. Because that would imply that WoW was original. It's seem funny how Everquest next developers want to make the game different from the model that they established, while at the same time making it similar to the model they created. I see a big contridiction here.
How is it possible that Everquest 2, which came out before WoW, be a WoW clone? This proves my point. What we so call, the WoW Clone Model, was not created by Blizzard, but by SoE Everquest.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Why would you think you can't copy a copy?
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Why would you think you can't copy a copy?
Because you are still copying the originalPhilosophy of MMO Game Design
C'mon, guys. Its SOE.
That's like thinking K-Mart could redefine itself. Both will fade from existence sooner rather than later.
You're nuts if you think these games more closely resemble EQ than WoW.
Well, nuts or you just never played EQ.
What WoW did was so different to Everquest that I consider it pretty innovative and original. When these developers look at MMOs and what to copy it is pretty obvious that they look at WoW and want to do that but with their own gimmick.
Also I said EQ2 has been turned into WoW now with patches after it got nearly killed off by it. You can see that quite clearly straight away with how the UI is laid out now, how the map gives indications to where everything is, the icons over quest givers heads etc.
EQNext is going to be closer to EQ2 than EQ1, there's isn't the will in a major developer to create a title with the oldschool mechanics the original had, the market for such a game isn't large enough to justify the expense.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Well it did look like it took a graphics cut. Maybe it won't be as expensive to make. Which means it can afford to take a risk just as much as the successful indies do like Darkfall has.Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Likely not going to be a sandbox. Notice how the poster in the op calls Everquest 1 a sandbox MMO. Again they must be using a different meaning of a sandbox.back then, people may not have known what they were doing when it came down to player levels, but players now days, know that when the game has player levels, it's best to just follow the level path from start to finish. The mindset has changed, not the games.
these so called WoW clones, are not copying WoW. Because that would imply that WoW was original. It's seem funny how Everquest next developers want to make the game different from the model that they established, while at the same time making it similar to the model they created. I see a big contridiction here.
How is it possible that Everquest 2, which came out before WoW, be a WoW clone? This proves my point. What we so call, the WoW Clone Model, was not created by Blizzard, but by SoE Everquest.
What WoW did was so different to Everquest that I consider it pretty innovative and original. When these developers looka t MMOs and what to copy it is pretty obvious that they look at WoW and want to do that but with their own gimmick.
Also I said EQ2 has been turned into WoW now with patches after it got nearly killed off by it. You can see that quite clearly straight away with how the UI is laid out now, how the map gives indications to where everything is, the icons over quest givers heads etc.
Ok,,, I have a last question for you in this thread, before I am out.do you believe WoW was original?(note: I said Original, not innovating)
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Heh, I wouldn't call Darkfall a successful Indie, probably 2nd worst example right after the folks at SV.
But perhaps they can be as successful as CCP, but is SOE willing to settle for that?
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Well it did look like it took a graphics cut. Maybe it won't be as expensive to make. Which means it can afford to take a risk just as much as the successful indies do like Darkfall has.Heh, I wouldn't call Darkfall a successful Indie, probably 2nd worst example right after the folks at SV.
But perhaps they can be as successful as CCP, but is SOE willing to settle for that?
Well by success I was referring to being able to maintain welth and complete it's debts from the money gained.Philosophy of MMO Game Design
I think theres a possibility that EQ Next is a graphics overhaul for EQ1. First off, they already told us that they Planetside Next was at first planned to be a graphics overhaul for the game, and then they changed their minds. So it may be possible that a similar situation is happening with EQ Next. Secondly, they have little reason to release another MMORPG that competes with EQ1, EQ2, and VG... Yet re-releasing EQ1 would attract a lot of attention and may save some $$ as far as database and code management goes because some of the tools and code could be reused, although most would not be.
I hope they do rerelease EQ1. But I know that if they do a lot of people will be disappointed because they are going to make some changes to it to appeal to the new MMO market... There is no denying that.
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I think from a gameplay standard it played vastly different from Everquest. The only reason why people go back to Everquest now, play it and say WoW copied it is because Everquest (talking about the first one) has made so many changes to make it more like WoW. The Everquest I played dropped you in a world without any help, it had a mess of a UI, horrible character movement and the combat was so different and much slower. There were no quests and crafting in Everquest was even worse than WoW as it was an afterthought they added in much later after they based a game around adventuring.
The original Everquest before WoW was such a different game to the point I think WoW was original. I mean you could say Portal wasn't original because it was based on other games, yet it done something so different.
When I played WoW back in 2004 it blew me away and the wait was over, we finally had a AAA developer make a polished and working MMO. Everything before that usually was of poor quality, very buggy, broken and dated in how it played. WoW made the combat fast paced and made an MMO that could be played competitively for money because of how great that combat was.
I think it was so original, though based on a previous design of Everquest, it took that and just done something so different. The problem people have with WoW now is the dumbed down casual player direction it has gone. Also how every MMO since has just taken WoW and just made a worse version and how previous MMOs have been changed to try and get tht audience like SWG and EQ2.
Not going to happen.
An honest review of SW:TOR 6/10 (Danny Wojcicki)
Look probably you don't get I play MMOs from 2000, I don't mean it in a patronizing way, but I do know the MMO industry pretty well, I played all of the MMOs you've listed above (except the upcoming obviously), and some of them are not even MMOs
In fact I still play Darkfall and sometimes even Perpetuum, when I am bored of WoW
Of those you listed none is an AAA to start with, which is my point.
There is no AAA MMO released in the last 7 years which is somehow different from the WoW concept.
Archeage which you mention, is exactly the kind of game I was waiting for, it is half Themepark and half Sandbox, and I was hoping that SoE would go that route with EQ Next, because I love the world of Norrath better.
I believe that the Themepark market is already saturated and people needs something different.........possibly not made by Indie developers.
Since SoE planned to make another EQ MMO, that's their chance to stop looking at what others do (Blizzard & Co) and try to be different, maybe looking back at their most succesful game which is EQ, and which I believe it is still their most profitable game theiy have in their stables (apparently they did something good there)
I always make this simple comparison so people can understand my point of view better.
In the single player RPG market there are 2 main different schools, the Bioware School (linear), and the Bethesda School (sandbox)
If you play Mass Effect or Dragon Age and then you play Morrowind or Skyrim you understand that there is a huge difference between the two styles, they are very different, but they both are RPG and both sell millions of copies.
(Skyrim has even been awarded the title of the best RPG ever made by many experts)
So there is room for different ways of making an RPG.
Well............. in the MMO market though, we have only the "Dragon Age" clones ( WoW ), but not even one "Skyrim" ( UO/EQ )
This is an anomaly that no developer tried to correct.
So when in the single player RPG market we have lots of different styles filling up the market and being successful, in the MMO market is stil the same old WoW copycat which is monopolising the market.
I just hope that Everquest Next could be the Skyrim of MMORPGs.........that's all I am saying.