Bad form, Bad Spock - letting the GW2 fans get to you so much that you'd clearly draw a false parallel between it and TOR. I could look up one video, first one, any one (case in point http://youtu.be/t08vBNqI_oY - gameplay starts at around 2:35), and see the difference in grouping and massively multiplayer content, not just the heroics that TOR seems to throw at you. Fact of the matter is, my best friend hates grouping, hell he hates people in general, and he's level 47. You know how many times he's grouped with strangers? You can count the times on one hand with all the fingers removed. And he's only grouped with friends a few times. And he's having fun.
Are you going to say he didn't get off the starter worlds? Seriously, if you're enjoying the game, enjoy the game, but don't start making hasty posts about a game you should know enough about by now not to. The games are just not similar.
It's like the OP is thinks that the people who don't like SWTOR don't like it because of the payment structure lol.
BTP would not hide swtor flaws,it runs way deeper than the payment model.
Not at all. The reason I speak of the pricing model is because the pricing model is basically an extension of the model for the game. When we think "MMO", we come to expect certain things from UI, to quality of life features, to the way the game is built (no ability to "cheat" using mods to make awesome weapons for instance) and of course, the monthly fee.
When we think B2P, we think games like The Sims.
GW1 shook things up, and GW2 is the real game-changer. My thoughts behind this post was that what if SWTOR can fill that spot between GW1 and 2?
So it has nothing to do with me thinking the pricing model impacts the quality of game. The pricing model just determines what the consumers should expect out of the game ad their gaming experience IMO.
"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
It's like the OP is thinks that the people who don't like SWTOR don't like it because of the payment structure lol.
BTP would not hide swtor flaws,it runs way deeper than the payment model.
Not at all. The reason I speak of the pricing model is because the pricing model is basically an extension of the model for the game. When we think "MMO", we come to expect certain things from UI, to quality of life features, to the way the game is built (no ability to "cheat" using mods to make awesome weapons for instance) and of course, the monthly fee.
When we think B2P, we think games like The Sims.
GW1 shook things up, and GW2 is the real game-changer. My thoughts behind this post was that what if SWTOR can fill that spot between GW1 and 2?
So it has nothing to do with me thinking the pricing model impacts the quality of game. The pricing model just determines what the consumers should expect out of the game ad their gaming experience IMO.
Sorry, I'm not up on what B2P is, so I naturally don't think of The Sims when I hear B2P due to this.
So basically you're trying to say that someone might enjoy a game they don't enjoy if the pricing model changes? Help me understand what part of the gameplay experience would be made better by a different billing model in SWTOR? Would it suddenly become an MMO that doesn't feel like its from 2003? Or are you saying that I'd excuse how utterly mediocre it was to me, if I paid way less for it?
Nah. I'd like to think I judge all of my entertainment based on the merits of the experience, which only matters regarding cost in extreme cases. Such as bullshit like Age of Empires online costing an insane amount if you unlock the full experience, where the non-full experience basically sucks. That could have been a fine game if it didn't try to pretend that a chat box = persistent world and dumped the free to play model that was crippled, not fun garbage from the outset. Unless you think getting an ad to buy the full version as a quest reward is "fun."
So aside from those glaring faults, I don't judge on how content is gated based on when and what you pay, and what you get with that payment. I think the "hey, this game is actually fun if you pay more money" is a scam, pure and simple, unless they're intentionally making it crap to lure you in.
I know, it might be a real shock, but if the game is fun the sales follow.
Games like LOL are fun and intriguing even if you don't pay. And when you do pay you are justly rewarded for it. That is a good paying model for something in that style. But an MMO? I've played zero that were actually fun that are free to play that had reasonable perks for paying cash. They're all painful grinds made less painful by nearly mandatory payment models. And when you finally dump all the cash in it that you can, they're not MORE fun, they're just LESS shit. Sure, I can play certain MMOs with nearly zero inventory space. But why would I?
The only thing that would save SWTOR in my mind is a flat out overhaul of the game. But I came to terms with the fact that a more ignorant, younger generation can enjoy what I perceive as non-innovative, rehashed crap. It's not the same as getting mad when they remake a movie... anyone can see the original. Sure, it's dated, but its still more or less relevant.
With MMOs, I can't fault people for not having played the last 15 years of MMOs to come to the conclusion that SWTOR is mediocre. I don't think anyone is going to fire up EQ and be dazzled by it. And most of the other decent ones are long gone or horribly dated/unplayable.
So, nah. Billing models are piddly to me. I dumped into a year sub of wow just for free diablo 3 and I don't even play wow. I might go back at some point, probably not. I had no problem losing box cost on SWTOR after max level and how vapid the gameplay and design was. There is no gradient of $15 a month that would make SWTOR seem impressive. In fact, if they had some sort of (what i see as) goofy billing model, I'd just think it was a ploy to lure people in who'd be pissed at $15 a month for this.
Shrug. Add the 1 or 2 interesting concepts from this to tabula rasa and they're nearly identical games.
In a heartbeat if it were B2P it would be better. When is the last time you saw so many people saying KOTOR 3 with co op mode or single player RPG with some mmo sprinkled in. Bioware approached it like a single player RPG I think utterly screwed themselves in the long run.
They are making one hell of a bet that people will accept WoW in space at end game. Leveling is not very WoWish, but max level from every description and all evidence is WoW.
In a heartbeat if it were B2P it would be better. When is the last time you saw so many people saying KOTOR 3 with co op mode or single player RPG with some mmo sprinkled in. Bioware approached it like a single player RPG I think utterly screwed themselves in the long run.
They are making one hell of a bet that people will accept WoW in space at end game. Leveling is not very WoWish, but max level from every description and all evidence is WoW.
Ok, looked up B2P Or maybe I was avoiding that portion previously...
No, the game would be no better, it would simply be less of a complete ripoff.
I also don't think you can compare guildwars or the sims to a traditional mmo. The data flow is simply not the same, the amount of persistent elements are nowhere near the same. Guildwars is actually rather vapid in terms of an explorable MMO-esqe space. As is the sims. I'd say diablo is closer in structure than wow would be, another non-sub b2p.
People seem to confuse the turnoff to SWTOR is simply the game itself. It could be entirely free, and I would have played it as much as I did and then quit exactly when I did. It just stings that I did it with as much invested as I had. It not stinging because it was free doesn't make it more noble.
DLC would hold no interest to me. Just like other DLC doesn't hold interest to me for games I don't enjoy. Generally DLC has rarely even been worthwhile or good. It all feels tacked on. I flat out prefer full blown expansions to DLC, DLC seems like a complete scam to validate long term investment in a franchise. And whenever I like a franchise, there is never enough DLC or it just seems frivolous. Even in games I like. Most of the time, when the experience is over, the DLC doesn't hold enough to spark interest in something I liked previously.
Depends on the game type, but I don't think RPG DLC is worthwhile at all. Your investment up to that point is immense compared to it, and its always lower/medium level and quality to allow for more sales. I love getting a DLC and running through it like some sort of god because I outlevel it, and get absolutely no benefit from it.
This was especially bad in a few of the borderlands "expansions" ... getting that DLC just to have 0 upgrades annoyed me.
So yeah, I'm still going to go with SWTOR needs more than smoke and mirrors billing structures to impress me.
Nope. I don't actually mind paying monthly if the game is good enough to deserve it. That GW2 is launching as B2P is the icing, not the cake. I actually just picked up EQ2 for the first time ever yesterday and, in a day, found myself more immersed and involved in the game than I was throughout the whole beta for SWTOR, and I'm not referring to bugs.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
You know, up until I'd played in the beta I would have said "yes", but after the beta I decided I wouldn't play for free.
I might have reconsidered, however, if they implemented level scaling, removed the 1-class member limit from all story instances, and made quest chains more shareable without pre-requisites.
I'm not really hung up on the monthly fee or payment model. Changing it wouldn't effect my dislike of the basic game design fundamentals used in this title.
I am from Central Europe myself and it used to be here like that as well. Everything was pirated at 90-ties, well piracy is still relatively strong but official legal sales coexist nicely and frequently those people who pirate buy alot as well.
Just give your country 10-20 years and you'll see it will slowly change maybe/ propably.
Besides isn't console games also pirated in your country? It is not like it is hard to run / get pirate console games.
I think you don't understand our culture lol.
I'm from a country called Singapore which is located in the south east asia region.
Despite having one of the strongest economies with the highest GDPs and wealthiest middle class around the world today(if you don't believe me you can google it), Piracy/Torrenting is extremely popular here.
I understand there europeans and westerners don't mind giving support monetarily to a company/game that they like alot.
Youngsters and young working adults in my country don't believe in paying 60 bucks for a game. The mindset here is why pay when I can get it for free? Yes, 60 bucks is nothing to those youngsters but the mindset here is why pay so much for a disc? The extreme success of lan shops and cybercafes also contribute to this mindset I believe.
F2P MMORPG Cash shop games/99 cent Iphone app games dominate here. I don't have the report but I believe the Asiasoft South East Asia is the most profitable game company in Singapore and the region. Some of my colleagues don't even know what Steam,GFWL and DOD is but they can dump hundreds or even thousands of dollars on F2P MMORPG games from asiasoft for years. Wierd huh?
On your question about console games - PS2/older model PSP + Wii/older model NDS is still the main dominant force here haha. Just buy the modded versions and bittorrent hehe.
I am sure that consumers here who purchase and play PS3 don't dare to mod it because they don't want to jeopardise their consoles and risk the chance of getting banned by PSN.
However, I still believe that PSN and PS3 games are still extremely popular in South East Asia and Asia Pacific despite the pirating Issues as they have to create a new PSN region and PSN store for us in addition to the other 3 PSN store.(Japan,Europe/Australia and USA) Check it out -> http://asia.playstation.com/.
I understand that many other countries and regions around the world complain about not having their own stores and servers as well. Sony also have the advantageous image of the cool japanese company around asia as well.
In Conclusion, I believe that even in the next 10-20 years the situation still won't change much unless something drastic happens lol.
Regardless of whether the game is subscription, b2p, f2p, or whatever, if I don't like it, I don't like it. If you polish a turd, it's still a turd.
Originally posted by Creslin321
SWTOR kind of reminds me of that movie "Twins." The CORPG portion of the movie is Arnold Schwarzenegger. Strong, good looking, exciting. While the MMORPG portion is...Danny Devito.
If TOR had no subscription fee and they fixed a number of problems, including addressing the need for Warfront PVP level Tiers, I would probably continue to play from time to time. As a subscription title? No way.
Too much to fix/change before I'd pay a subscription and I just don't see that happening.
I hope EA is happy with the rush job on this one, because they may just have flushed a lot of development money and potential long term subscription fees right down the toilet by launching this game as designed.
I think a lot of the professional reviewers are going to be groaning about their overly generous ratings a year from now. TOR hasn't held up well over time and it's only been out a few weeks! It will be interesting to see if some reviewers who decided to play a full month, (or more) of retail before writing their reviews produce some more believable ratings on this game.
If TOR had no subscription fee and they fixed a number of problems, including addressing the need for Warfront PVP level Tiers, I would probably continue to play from time to time. As a subscription title? No way.
Too much to fix/change before I'd pay a subscription and I just don't see that happening.
I hope EA is happy with the rush job on this one, because they may just have flushed a lot of development money and potential long term subscription fees right down the toilet by launching this game as designed.
I think a lot of the professional reviewers are going to be groaning about their overly generous ratings a year from now. TOR hasn't held up well over time and it's only been out a few weeks! It will be interesting to see if some reviewers who decided to play a full month, (or more) of retail before writing their reviews produce some more believable ratings on this game.
I don't think it was a rush job, it was just a lot of really bad design choices and lack of common sense
Comments
Bad form, Bad Spock - letting the GW2 fans get to you so much that you'd clearly draw a false parallel between it and TOR. I could look up one video, first one, any one (case in point http://youtu.be/t08vBNqI_oY - gameplay starts at around 2:35), and see the difference in grouping and massively multiplayer content, not just the heroics that TOR seems to throw at you. Fact of the matter is, my best friend hates grouping, hell he hates people in general, and he's level 47. You know how many times he's grouped with strangers? You can count the times on one hand with all the fingers removed. And he's only grouped with friends a few times. And he's having fun.
Are you going to say he didn't get off the starter worlds? Seriously, if you're enjoying the game, enjoy the game, but don't start making hasty posts about a game you should know enough about by now not to. The games are just not similar.
Not at all. The reason I speak of the pricing model is because the pricing model is basically an extension of the model for the game. When we think "MMO", we come to expect certain things from UI, to quality of life features, to the way the game is built (no ability to "cheat" using mods to make awesome weapons for instance) and of course, the monthly fee.
When we think B2P, we think games like The Sims.
GW1 shook things up, and GW2 is the real game-changer. My thoughts behind this post was that what if SWTOR can fill that spot between GW1 and 2?
So it has nothing to do with me thinking the pricing model impacts the quality of game. The pricing model just determines what the consumers should expect out of the game ad their gaming experience IMO.
"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
I need to take this advice more.
No. [Mod Edit]
Sorry, I'm not up on what B2P is, so I naturally don't think of The Sims when I hear B2P due to this.
So basically you're trying to say that someone might enjoy a game they don't enjoy if the pricing model changes? Help me understand what part of the gameplay experience would be made better by a different billing model in SWTOR? Would it suddenly become an MMO that doesn't feel like its from 2003? Or are you saying that I'd excuse how utterly mediocre it was to me, if I paid way less for it?
Nah. I'd like to think I judge all of my entertainment based on the merits of the experience, which only matters regarding cost in extreme cases. Such as bullshit like Age of Empires online costing an insane amount if you unlock the full experience, where the non-full experience basically sucks. That could have been a fine game if it didn't try to pretend that a chat box = persistent world and dumped the free to play model that was crippled, not fun garbage from the outset. Unless you think getting an ad to buy the full version as a quest reward is "fun."
So aside from those glaring faults, I don't judge on how content is gated based on when and what you pay, and what you get with that payment. I think the "hey, this game is actually fun if you pay more money" is a scam, pure and simple, unless they're intentionally making it crap to lure you in.
I know, it might be a real shock, but if the game is fun the sales follow.
Games like LOL are fun and intriguing even if you don't pay. And when you do pay you are justly rewarded for it. That is a good paying model for something in that style. But an MMO? I've played zero that were actually fun that are free to play that had reasonable perks for paying cash. They're all painful grinds made less painful by nearly mandatory payment models. And when you finally dump all the cash in it that you can, they're not MORE fun, they're just LESS shit. Sure, I can play certain MMOs with nearly zero inventory space. But why would I?
The only thing that would save SWTOR in my mind is a flat out overhaul of the game. But I came to terms with the fact that a more ignorant, younger generation can enjoy what I perceive as non-innovative, rehashed crap. It's not the same as getting mad when they remake a movie... anyone can see the original. Sure, it's dated, but its still more or less relevant.
With MMOs, I can't fault people for not having played the last 15 years of MMOs to come to the conclusion that SWTOR is mediocre. I don't think anyone is going to fire up EQ and be dazzled by it. And most of the other decent ones are long gone or horribly dated/unplayable.
So, nah. Billing models are piddly to me. I dumped into a year sub of wow just for free diablo 3 and I don't even play wow. I might go back at some point, probably not. I had no problem losing box cost on SWTOR after max level and how vapid the gameplay and design was. There is no gradient of $15 a month that would make SWTOR seem impressive. In fact, if they had some sort of (what i see as) goofy billing model, I'd just think it was a ploy to lure people in who'd be pissed at $15 a month for this.
Shrug. Add the 1 or 2 interesting concepts from this to tabula rasa and they're nearly identical games.
In a heartbeat if it were B2P it would be better. When is the last time you saw so many people saying KOTOR 3 with co op mode or single player RPG with some mmo sprinkled in. Bioware approached it like a single player RPG I think utterly screwed themselves in the long run.
They are making one hell of a bet that people will accept WoW in space at end game. Leveling is not very WoWish, but max level from every description and all evidence is WoW.
Ok, looked up B2P
Or maybe I was avoiding that portion previously...
No, the game would be no better, it would simply be less of a complete ripoff.
I also don't think you can compare guildwars or the sims to a traditional mmo. The data flow is simply not the same, the amount of persistent elements are nowhere near the same. Guildwars is actually rather vapid in terms of an explorable MMO-esqe space. As is the sims. I'd say diablo is closer in structure than wow would be, another non-sub b2p.
People seem to confuse the turnoff to SWTOR is simply the game itself. It could be entirely free, and I would have played it as much as I did and then quit exactly when I did. It just stings that I did it with as much invested as I had. It not stinging because it was free doesn't make it more noble.
DLC would hold no interest to me. Just like other DLC doesn't hold interest to me for games I don't enjoy. Generally DLC has rarely even been worthwhile or good. It all feels tacked on. I flat out prefer full blown expansions to DLC, DLC seems like a complete scam to validate long term investment in a franchise. And whenever I like a franchise, there is never enough DLC or it just seems frivolous. Even in games I like. Most of the time, when the experience is over, the DLC doesn't hold enough to spark interest in something I liked previously.
Depends on the game type, but I don't think RPG DLC is worthwhile at all. Your investment up to that point is immense compared to it, and its always lower/medium level and quality to allow for more sales. I love getting a DLC and running through it like some sort of god because I outlevel it, and get absolutely no benefit from it.
This was especially bad in a few of the borderlands "expansions" ... getting that DLC just to have 0 upgrades annoyed me.
So yeah, I'm still going to go with SWTOR needs more than smoke and mirrors billing structures to impress me.
Nope. I don't actually mind paying monthly if the game is good enough to deserve it. That GW2 is launching as B2P is the icing, not the cake. I actually just picked up EQ2 for the first time ever yesterday and, in a day, found myself more immersed and involved in the game than I was throughout the whole beta for SWTOR, and I'm not referring to bugs.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
You know, up until I'd played in the beta I would have said "yes", but after the beta I decided I wouldn't play for free.
I might have reconsidered, however, if they implemented level scaling, removed the 1-class member limit from all story instances, and made quest chains more shareable without pre-requisites.
I'm not really hung up on the monthly fee or payment model. Changing it wouldn't effect my dislike of the basic game design fundamentals used in this title.
I think you don't understand our culture lol.
I'm from a country called Singapore which is located in the south east asia region.
Despite having one of the strongest economies with the highest GDPs and wealthiest middle class around the world today(if you don't believe me you can google it), Piracy/Torrenting is extremely popular here.
I understand there europeans and westerners don't mind giving support monetarily to a company/game that they like alot.
Youngsters and young working adults in my country don't believe in paying 60 bucks for a game. The mindset here is why pay when I can get it for free? Yes, 60 bucks is nothing to those youngsters but the mindset here is why pay so much for a disc? The extreme success of lan shops and cybercafes also contribute to this mindset I believe.
F2P MMORPG Cash shop games/99 cent Iphone app games dominate here. I don't have the report but I believe the Asiasoft South East Asia is the most profitable game company in Singapore and the region. Some of my colleagues don't even know what Steam,GFWL and DOD is but they can dump hundreds or even thousands of dollars on F2P MMORPG games from asiasoft for years. Wierd huh?
On your question about console games - PS2/older model PSP + Wii/older model NDS is still the main dominant force here haha. Just buy the modded versions and bittorrent hehe.
I am sure that consumers here who purchase and play PS3 don't dare to mod it because they don't want to jeopardise their consoles and risk the chance of getting banned by PSN.
However, I still believe that PSN and PS3 games are still extremely popular in South East Asia and Asia Pacific despite the pirating Issues as they have to create a new PSN region and PSN store for us in addition to the other 3 PSN store.(Japan,Europe/Australia and USA) Check it out -> http://asia.playstation.com/.
I understand that many other countries and regions around the world complain about not having their own stores and servers as well. Sony also have the advantageous image of the cool japanese company around asia as well.
In Conclusion, I believe that even in the next 10-20 years the situation still won't change much unless something drastic happens lol.
Sorry for off-topic.
Regardless of whether the game is subscription, b2p, f2p, or whatever, if I don't like it, I don't like it. If you polish a turd, it's still a turd.
Epicly funny Creslin, this really made me laugh.
I will just take GW2 instead
If TOR had no subscription fee and they fixed a number of problems, including addressing the need for Warfront PVP level Tiers, I would probably continue to play from time to time. As a subscription title? No way.
Too much to fix/change before I'd pay a subscription and I just don't see that happening.
I hope EA is happy with the rush job on this one, because they may just have flushed a lot of development money and potential long term subscription fees right down the toilet by launching this game as designed.
I think a lot of the professional reviewers are going to be groaning about their overly generous ratings a year from now. TOR hasn't held up well over time and it's only been out a few weeks! It will be interesting to see if some reviewers who decided to play a full month, (or more) of retail before writing their reviews produce some more believable ratings on this game.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
I don't think it was a rush job, it was just a lot of really bad design choices and lack of common sense